Malleus Fatuorum (talk | contribs) →GoCE: you may be right, let's see |
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::There most certainly are articles that have problems that run deeper than the prose (and many of the articles the GoCE focuses on are prime examples), but there's no shame in telling a nominator that the prose is the least of their worries and that there's no point copy-editing it until the deeper issues are sorted out—no point putting a 'band-aid' on a gunshot wound, to paraphrase an American expression. [[User:HJ Mitchell|<font color="Teal" face="Tahoma">'''HJ Mitchell'''</font>]] | [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|<font color="Navy" face= "Times New Roman">Penny for your thoughts? </font>]] 19:38, 5 September 2011 (UTC) |
::There most certainly are articles that have problems that run deeper than the prose (and many of the articles the GoCE focuses on are prime examples), but there's no shame in telling a nominator that the prose is the least of their worries and that there's no point copy-editing it until the deeper issues are sorted out—no point putting a 'band-aid' on a gunshot wound, to paraphrase an American expression. [[User:HJ Mitchell|<font color="Teal" face="Tahoma">'''HJ Mitchell'''</font>]] | [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|<font color="Navy" face= "Times New Roman">Penny for your thoughts? </font>]] 19:38, 5 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:::I wish you luck with that. My experience tells me that such a response almost inevitably leads to vitriol and a promise to watch for your RfA nomination. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 19:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC) |
:::I wish you luck with that. My experience tells me that such a response almost inevitably leads to vitriol and a promise to watch for your RfA nomination. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 19:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC) |
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::::I think (sensible) nominators would much prefer to hear it early on than have. The 'fly off the rails at any hint their article might not be perfect' type will be the same wherever their articles are nominated. And the idle threats of the likes of MONGO are more of an amusing occupational hazard than anything to be concerned about. [[User:HJ Mitchell|<font color="Teal" face="Tahoma">'''HJ Mitchell'''</font>]] | [[User talk:HJ Mitchell|<font color="Navy" face= "Times New Roman">Penny for your thoughts? </font>]] 20:54, 5 September 2011 (UTC) |
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== A barnstar for you! == |
== A barnstar for you! == |
Revision as of 20:54, 5 September 2011
There are many aspects of wikipedia's governance that seem to me to be at best ill-considered and at worst corrupt, and little recognition that some things need to change. I appreciate that there are many good, talented, and honest people here, but there are far too many who are none of those things, concerned only with the status they acquire by doing whatever is required to climb up some greasy pole or other. I'm out of step with the way things are run here, and at best grudgingly tolerated by the children who run this site. I see that as a good thing, although I appreciate that there are others who see it as an excuse to look for any reason to block me, as my log amply demonstrates. |
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License tagging for File:BradfordColliery.jpg
Thanks for uploading File:BradfordColliery.jpg. You don't seem to have indicated the license status of the image. Wikipedia uses a set of image copyright tags to indicate this information.
To add a tag to the image, select the appropriate tag from this list, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the tag to the image's description. If there doesn't seem to be a suitable tag, the image is probably not appropriate for use on Wikipedia. For help in choosing the correct tag, or for any other questions, leave a message on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. Thank you for your cooperation. --ImageTaggingBot (talk) 23:05, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for your recent comment on my intelligence. I must insist you redact your offensive incivil comments; my coding includes the ability to start a WP:WQA thread. Just what is it you do here anyway? ImageTaggingBot (talk) 23:26, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- Insist away, and see where it gets you. Do you feel lucky? Malleus Fatuorum 23:28, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- Tee hee. Your edit summary could be more bot-like, though - perhaps your coding needs a witticism upgrade? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:46, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
- The bot that turns out to be real editor does raise an interesting question though. He does so much good work in mistakenly flagging images, yet what do I do? Malleus Fatuorum 00:54, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
- Do you sell lottery tickets? Waltham, The Duke of 11:00, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
- PoD is sooooo wicked:-)--J3Mrs (talk) 11:23, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
- I seem to attract wickedness. Last night, while cycling through Dunham Massey in the pitch dark (with the lights on of course), I managed to have a road traffic collision with a bat. Parrot of Doom 17:35, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
- Bats apparently follow the line of hedges and so on, and get confused if they're grubbed up. When I was up the Lake District a few weeks ago I came across something I'd never seen before, bat bridges. Malleus Fatuorum 16:17, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- I seem to attract wickedness. Last night, while cycling through Dunham Massey in the pitch dark (with the lights on of course), I managed to have a road traffic collision with a bat. Parrot of Doom 17:35, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
- PoD is sooooo wicked:-)--J3Mrs (talk) 11:23, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
- Do you sell lottery tickets? Waltham, The Duke of 11:00, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
- The bot that turns out to be real editor does raise an interesting question though. He does so much good work in mistakenly flagging images, yet what do I do? Malleus Fatuorum 00:54, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
How to create own kit for my favourite fotball team ?
How to create own kit (wikipedia) for my favourite football team ? For example, make it look like Lokomotiv Moscow. Detailed procedure for creating kit (using photoshop or gimp, upload photo) . Please contact me on my talk page. Regards, iQual (talk) 10:06, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
- See Template:Infobox football club and for detail Template:Football kit. Rich Farmbrough, 11:42, 1 September 2011 (UTC).
Thanks
Thanks for the edits to Murasaki Shikibu. Between a computer melt-down, and a complete loss of perspective, I haven't been able to face it for a few days. The help is appreciated as always. Truthkeeper (talk) 01:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Glad to be able to help. I see you've got a few others chipping as well. Malleus Fatuorum 21:07, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Just checking in...
Want to take a quick look over Fairfax before I (finally) get around to noming him this afternoon? And can you look in at Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Percheron/1 for the Equine project? We value your opinion, and an outside view would be good there, I suspect. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:36, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- Give me an hour or so, but one question while you're here. The article says that "crews were assigned to the same locomotives", but "same" doesn't make much sense. Does it mean that each crew was assigned to a specific locomotive? Malleus Fatuorum 16:13, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- ... Also, "In 1916, Harrison acquired a railroad line that ran from Meridian". Did Harrison acquire it or did Southern? Malleus Fatuorum 16:43, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
- ... And, "By the time the USRA returned control of Southern in March 1920 its treasury was bare." Whose treasury? The USRA's or Southern's? Malleus Fatuorum 16:54, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Courtesy note
I mentioned your pithy critique of the shambles that is our 9/11 article here. Keep telling it like it is Malleus.--John (talk) 19:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Ah yes, dear MONGO. It's obviously a crying shame the 9/11 article is so poor, but like you I don't think it even meets the GA criteria as it stands, never mind FA. Perhaps it's a subject too close to American editors' hearts and too recent for them to do it proper justice? Malleus Fatuorum 20:12, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
DYK description
Hi Malleus,
I suggested an alternative description, in response to your concerns.
Cheers, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:29, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- User:Rjanag has made it abundantly clear that he thinks that anyone raising legitimate concerns about DYK is a troll, particularly if it's me. So he and it can rot in Hell as far as I'm concerned. Malleus Fatuorum 21:40, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- PS. I do like your revised wording: much more accurate, concise, and elegant. Malleus Fatuorum 21:43, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks! :)
- (The following is not motivated by the other discussants at DYK, but is motivated by your critics in the past and elsewhere.) You may be like Schopenhauer's description of one of his own books, which was like a mirror to the soul: If an ass looks in, you cannot expect an angel to look out.
- No more so than the disappointment that is DYK. Malleus Fatuorum 15:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Two have now admitted it's for new content only but the page is locked down. Typical. Stupidly, I really did think it was for expansion and improvement. My naivete floors me sometimes. Truthkeeper (talk) 15:15, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- No more so than the disappointment that is DYK. Malleus Fatuorum 15:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Malleus, I agree with most of what you wrote.
- However, DYK often results in improved articles, although improvement is not an essential feature. (DYK may have resulted in neighbors meeting for a drink, also, although that is not an essential feature either.) Conscientious reviewers have helped me both to improve my craft and to better understand policies.
- I agree that the talk page's failure to focus & address key issues is maddening. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- My real beef with DYK (well I have several actually, but my beef in this context) is that it's my firm belief that very many articles are improved not by increasing their length but by ruthlessly hacking away at them, making them shorter and more focused. Here's just one example that springs to mind because I was involved in it; in the effort to save Roy of the Rovers's little bronze gubbin at FAR it was reduced from 34kB (5918 words) to 19kB (3335 words). The problem with encouraging expansion is that it encourages the kind of prolix prose so beloved of Americans. Malleus Fatuorum 15:59, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I really fail to to see how any clear-thinking person could believe that DYK is anything other than a reward system for the creation of new articles. Malleus Fatuorum 16:03, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- You keep worrying about prolixity, and you'll end up in a Catch-22.
- "Omit needless words! Omit needless words!" Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:06, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
(outdent) Mmmm, I'm not happy with the comment that DYK is nothing but "a reward system for the creation of new articles". OK it's that, but in addition it does bring attention to an article that may not be achieved otherwise. In my experience a DYK on the main page usually results in 1–3k "hits" (or more), rather than the usual 2–3 per day. And, on occasion, it leads to a conversation with other editors with similar interests, resulting in the improvement of the article in question, and maybe more! --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:51, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- One issue I have with DYK is that I can completely rework an article, removing what was tripe and replacing it with half-decent mutterings, but that isn't "good enough" to be eligible for DYK. Parrot of Doom 17:00, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- That's my issue too. Truthkeeper (talk) 17:18, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Your articles are a breath of fresh air at DYK Peter, but for a more typical example take a look at one of today's, 2011 PBA Governors Cup Finals, and try to persuade me that DYK cares about quality or article improvement rather than bling. Malleus Fatuorum 17:25, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I rather liked "when he grabbed Grundy's behind twice before the officials called for a foul." Shows character, that.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The article does have a certain naive charm, I agree. A bit like a painting by a chimpanzee. Malleus Fatuorum 17:47, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Using only chimpanzee-generated materials.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:49, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- OK, there are bad apples everywhere. But that does not deny that reasonably OK articles nominated for DYK bring attention to new articles in the projects for which we care — Greater Manchester, Cheshire, Lancs & Cumbria, etc. {That sentence needs some copyediting, but you see what I mean, I hope.) --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 18:07, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- You probably haven't been watching the discussion on DYK's talk page Peter, and no reason why you should, but it's rapidly blowing out of control. Administrators abusing mere editors because they see a truth they can't, and therefore ought to be blocked as trolls, others threatening to retire because all of sudden DYK is revealed as what it really is ...". Malleus Fatuorum 18:27, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- OK, there are bad apples everywhere. But that does not deny that reasonably OK articles nominated for DYK bring attention to new articles in the projects for which we care — Greater Manchester, Cheshire, Lancs & Cumbria, etc. {That sentence needs some copyediting, but you see what I mean, I hope.) --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 18:07, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Using only chimpanzee-generated materials.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:49, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- The article does have a certain naive charm, I agree. A bit like a painting by a chimpanzee. Malleus Fatuorum 17:47, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I rather liked "when he grabbed Grundy's behind twice before the officials called for a foul." Shows character, that.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
GoCE
Hi Malleus, I was hoping you might be interested in the somewhat-reignited discussion at WT:GOCE#Actions—I'm proposing a subpage of the GoCE's requests page for articles on their way to FAC. It's not quite the writers' workshop you suggested, but I'm hoping it could serve as a central place for nominators to ask for feedback on their prose and get a frank assessment of whether or not they can nominate it at FAC. Then the copy-editors there can offer advice or edit the article if it's not up to scratch, hopefully averting a disaster for the nominator at FAC and perhaps taking some of the burden off of FAC reviewers. Now, you're a far better and more experienced copy-editor than I, so I was hoping you might be willing to help with the requests if or when the page gets the go-ahead. Best, HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 01:12, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure the workshop was my idea was it? I think I just expressed a concern that nominators at FAC told that their work needs a damn good seeing to by a decent copyeditor were being left in limbo with nowhere to go. I've run through quite a few FA candidates in my time, and I've never found it an easy thing to do; it's also rather time-consuming to do properly. It'll be interesting to see if the experiment to separate out the various levels of request proves to be a success, but I suppose that rather depends on whether the various levels of GOCE members naturally gravitate towards their level of competence. Malleus Fatuorum 16:15, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Having thought about this for a while one thing I'd add, again from my own experience, is that some articles are so far from reaching FA's criteria that to spend time on them in that cauldron would be a waste of GOCE copyeditors' time. Perhaps another reason why it ought to be a venue for experienced copyeditors. Malleus Fatuorum 18:34, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- There most certainly are articles that have problems that run deeper than the prose (and many of the articles the GoCE focuses on are prime examples), but there's no shame in telling a nominator that the prose is the least of their worries and that there's no point copy-editing it until the deeper issues are sorted out—no point putting a 'band-aid' on a gunshot wound, to paraphrase an American expression. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:38, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I wish you luck with that. My experience tells me that such a response almost inevitably leads to vitriol and a promise to watch for your RfA nomination. Malleus Fatuorum 19:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think (sensible) nominators would much prefer to hear it early on than have. The 'fly off the rails at any hint their article might not be perfect' type will be the same wherever their articles are nominated. And the idle threats of the likes of MONGO are more of an amusing occupational hazard than anything to be concerned about. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:54, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- I wish you luck with that. My experience tells me that such a response almost inevitably leads to vitriol and a promise to watch for your RfA nomination. Malleus Fatuorum 19:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- There most certainly are articles that have problems that run deeper than the prose (and many of the articles the GoCE focuses on are prime examples), but there's no shame in telling a nominator that the prose is the least of their worries and that there's no point copy-editing it until the deeper issues are sorted out—no point putting a 'band-aid' on a gunshot wound, to paraphrase an American expression. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:38, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Tireless Contributor Barnstar | |
Great improvements to Mutiny at Sucro! Doug Coldwell talk 11:25, 5 September 2011 (UTC) |