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Hasan Celal Güzel is a friend of Aksu family, he says he knows his parents, both of them are Türkmen (see the above question) and neither of them are Kurds. |
Hasan Celal Güzel is a friend of Aksu family, he says he knows his parents, both of them are Türkmen (see the above question) and neither of them are Kurds. |
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For the Albanian hypothesis, I found a source in Vikipedi, the source is a biography book (http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd%C3%BClkadir_Aksu). [[User:Kavas|Kavas]] ([[User talk:Kavas|talk]]) 21:41, 17 August 2010 (UTC) |
For the Albanian hypothesis, I found a source in Vikipedi, the source is a biography book (http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd%C3%BClkadir_Aksu). [[User:Kavas|Kavas]] ([[User talk:Kavas|talk]]) 21:41, 17 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== Armenian article == |
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The alleged armenian genocide is commonly referred to as "sözde ermeni soykırımı" in Turkish. This can be confirmed by any native speaker of Turkish or simply via [http://www.google.com.tr/search?hl=en&q=%22s%C3%B6zde+ermeni+soyk%C4%B1r%C4%B1m%C4%B1%22 Google]. So please keep your anti-Turkic propaganda to yourself and do not edit parts you have no expertise over. |
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== The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : LIII (July 2010) == |
== The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : LIII (July 2010) == |
Revision as of 20:04, 27 August 2010
/Archive 1- June 2009 -- March 2010 |
This page has archives. Sections may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
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Deletion of my quote on page 238
I hope we have a misunderstanding, as [edit] is a little troublesome. You have DELETED my quotation saying the following- Quote on page 238 "Turks who were unable to escape the oncoming army were subject to similar Bulgarian retribution. Mosques, razed to the ground by dynamite or fire, became a familiar sight in the wake of the Bulgarian advance." in Glenny's book, and replaced it with a quotation needed again. I will assume that this is an accident, because I have no other way to explain it except bad faith otherwise. Why did you delete the quote? --Yalens (talk) 18:50, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
ALSO: Stop requesting quotation for the Trotsky. It is quoted in Glenny on page 234, and that exact quote is right there on the page ("the horrors..... killed in battle") in a text block. It is very difficult for me to imagine that you cannot see that. I do hope you just reverted and didn't realizing you were reverting that as well. --Yalens (talk) 18:54, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Any requests for quotes should be placed on the talk page and discussed.
- Here are the sentences that are in question:
- contributing vastly to the 1 million killed from 1912-1918 <refGlenny, Misha. The Balkans. Page 238-9ref>[need quotation to verify]
- Turks claim that since no country recognizes this behavior as genocide (well over 1 million Turks were killed during the Balkan Wars and World War I <refKing, Charles. The Ghost of Freedom: A History of the Caucasus. Page 158ref>[need quotation to verify])
- It is notable that not only Turks but also Kurds (as well as, in cases, Circassians) were murdered and expelled in sensitive regions in the Northern Middle East and the Balkans, on the grounds of their Islam and relative loyalty to the Porte (though in the case of the Kurds, this loyalty was entering its last years as it dissipated when Kurds realized their lack of rights in an explicitly Turkish state). <refKing, Charles. The Ghost of Freedom: A History of the Caucasus. Page 158-9ref>[need quotation to verify]
- Albanians, too, who were not universally Muslim, nor were they loyal to the Empire, were subjected to a number of organized cleansing operations in the form of massacres at the hands of the Balkan pact members, especially the Serbs <refGlenny, Misha. The Balkans. Pages 233 and 234ref>[need quotation to verify]
- Also, this sentence, "...it is absurd to call what happened to the Armenians in Anatolia (with similar proportions) genocide, and that the genocide claim is just being used against the losing side in the First World War.", is also contentious, unsubstantiated and needs a reference.
- Since, none of your quotes support anything they are referencing, I will be placing a Wikipedia:Original Research tag on that section. --Kansas Bear (talk) 04:10, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I know this. You are sidestepping the topic at hand. I am interested in knowing why you deleted the quote that I already gave at your request.
- But since you also want to discuss this, we shall. (however, I am still very perturbed at why you DELETED my QUOTE; I do sincerely hope it was a mistake).
- And in the case of the contributing vastly, that was incorrect synthesis actually. I thought it meant Balkan Wars and World War I, but it only meant World War I, so I have now changed it.
- Since you have problems understanding English, I will walk you through this.
- 1. "Turks claim that since no country recognizes this behavior as genocide (well over 1 million Turks were killed during the Balkan Wars and World War I." Which you have provided this source...Throughout the empire and its borderlands Muslims, too, suffered at the hands of both the Ottomon State and its wartime enemies. Kurds, formerly employed by the Ottomon authorities as irregular troops, were also deported from sensitive borderlands or simply slaugthered. Muslims were attacked, killed, moved about, and killed by Christian states in both the Balkans and in the north and south Caucasus. In round figures, the regions were emptied of more than a million Muslims during the First World War alone, not to mention the previous century of removals and atrocities by the Balkan states and the Russian empire."
- Nowhere within your "source" does it say "Turks claim.....", "genocide", or "well over 1 million Turks were killed". Therefore, this is original research. "Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context or to advance a position not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research."[1]
- 2."It is notable that not only Turks but also Kurds (as well as, in cases, Circassians) were murdered and expelled in sensitive regions in the Northern Middle East and the Balkans, on the grounds of their Islam and relative loyalty to the Porte (though in the case of the Kurds, this loyalty was entering its last years as it dissipated when Kurds realized their lack of rights in an explicitly Turkish state)", has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide, undoubtedly more rationalization.
- 3."Albanians, too, who were not universally Muslim, nor were they loyal to the Empire, were subjected to a number of organized cleansing operations in the form of massacres at the hands of the Balkan pact members, especially the Serbs", more irrelevant nonsense in an attempt to mitigate the genocide of a people under the direct control of the Ottoman Empire.
- 4. "it is absurd to call what happened to the Armenians in Anatolia (with similar proportions) genocide, and that the genocide claim is just being used against the losing side in the First World War.", unsourced merde, used as some pathetic attempt to rationalize genocide.
- 5. "Muslims were attacked, killed, moved about, and killed by Christian states in both the Balkans and in the north and south Caucasus.", in another attempt at mitigating, killed has to be mentioned twice in one sentence. What impudence! --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:15, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- I fail to see why you are so emotional about it. It is a heavy topic, I understand, but still- you are not even Armenian and have absolutely nothing to do with it. The only thing I'm irked about is that you deleted my quote, which you will not discuss. I gave you a link to the edit in which you deleted the quote. Did you even look at it? You are still sidestepping the discussion, and changing the topic. Other edits are off topic. I want to know why you deleted the quote- this edit [[2]] (I give you the edit changes link again). If its just an accident we are fine. If it is just a misunderstanding, I would be happy to forgive you.
- This is not my opinion- and I am certainly not trying to "rationalize" the genocide as you claim. I am not Turkish, nor am I overwhelmingly sympathetic towards the Turks. Personally I think that no matter what the Turks pull, nothing can deny their country's guilt in the killing of a large number of Armenians and the near-extinction of Armenians in a considerable chunk of their former homeland.
- It is funny how you say this because just the other day I was accused of being too pro-Armenian on some forum, and that I was some sort of Armenian propagandist just for voicing an opinion that the genocide occurred. But alas, everyone on either side is so incredibly emotional about the issue that it blocks out any attempt at a reasonable debate- therefore, apparently I am a Turk propagandist and Armenian propagandist at the same time.
- The truth, however, is that, yes, the regions were "emptied of over a million Turks". I, personally, have heard Turks use this to say that the designation of what is and what isn't a genocide is not balanced (they will never concede that their government had a plan to wipe out the Armenians in the Ottomon Empire, so to them its pretty much the same thing). That is why it belongs in Turkish denial. I am pretty sure the opinion is in print somewhere, however I have not gone to great lengths to find it, so if you want to request a quote there that would be good.
- The thing is that a lot of the reason the Turks find it difficult to admit is that they have a strong feeling of being persecuted themselves, not in the least because of these events, and it would be good for the article to include that. That's why I put it up there, not because I have some agenda to draw attention away from the killings of Armenians. Nor am I trying to rationalize genocide
- The presence of the Albanian reference is because this behavior by Serbia, Greece and the rest is well-known in Turkey, and it goes under a long list of other things (including the Circassian Genocide as well) that I have heard Turks, and many other people have, say that could be recognized as genocide if you call the Armenian genocide... a genocide. Yes, I suppose you are right that that is OR- though I'm sure we could probably find at least some quote by a Turkish politician or something like that somewhere. And the reference to Kurds is that the Kurds may also use their victimization by the Russian/Armenian forces (you know, what happened to them before the Turks themselves started having issues with them) as a claim to say it was two way as well. The Kurds and Armenians, although they seem to have coinciding interests today, also have a lot of disputes- as you can see just by paying a short visit to any Kurdish forum and looking up Armenian claims to the Van region. Armenians meanwhile (including Armenians on wikipedia) often will blame Kurds for the genocide (which is not really incorrect, as they were the Ottomons' irregular troops). So that's why the Kurdish reference is there. It is not to rationalize the genocide or anything. --Yalens (talk) 19:47, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- So instead of dealing with the issues, which have been clearly explained, you continue this rant of emotional. Apparently, you are too emotional to understand how original research is a direct violation of wikipedia. As such original research should be deleted. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- "Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources."[3] --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- Which is why I have requested a quotation. In any case, I somehow, mysteriously, still lack an explanation for why you deleted the quote.
- I am not the one who is emotional. I am not the one who called the other impudent, and accused them of ranting, and of trying to rationalize genocide (completely contrary to the truth). I would be perfectly happy to discuss this in a non-confrontational manner, one that does not involve such accusations. --Yalens (talk) 21:16, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
- Your quote did not support what was in the sentence(as explained here earlier...[4]), is that clear enough? Technically, since what you have written is OR, I should have just deleted all of that(which I am sure you would have called "emotional"). This now has been explained, again. As for confrontational, 1)I asked for page numbers, you then stated; " I would appreciate to not be yelled at.",[5] thus trying to imply(ie. ranting) from the beginning this fantasy of yours that I am emotional. Pity you have not wasted as much time finding sources to support your Original Research. I would suggest in your case that you focus your attention to finding sources that support your "opinion" or it will be deleted. --Kansas Bear (talk) 03:46, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- When I said initially that I would appreciate not to be yelled at, I was not responding to you, but to David Roman, because of this edit, where he did- [[6]]. And yes, I believe that the assumption that I am a Turkish propagandist or at least otherwise trying somehow to rationalize the genocide is emotional, not to mention that I am apparently "impudent". I have had editing conflicts with people that are actually from the Caucasus on other historical issues (Ossetians, one Armenian, etc.), but we have at least managed to keep from randomly throwing insults like "impudent" at each other, nor did they overtly assume I had some ulterior motive in editing other than to put stuff up on wikipedia. What is funny is that people like you and User:David Roman, who don't even seem to be from the Caucasus (your profile says you are a German-Scottish-English-French-somethingelse American; his name certainly sounds Western to me as well), get far more emotional, and that's odd.
- I have not protested against you calling the opinions OR (they are not necessarily mine, mind you), and you can delete them (I assume the reader would be able to infer them anyways). You cannot, however, delete the sourced material. I am quite sure a reader can infer the importance of the effect of the Balkan Wars on the Armenian Genocide, so it is wrong to delete it. --Yalens (talk) 14:10, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- Your material is not sourced(Issues #1 and #4, Issues #2, #3 and #5 being irrelevant to the Armenian Genocide), hence it is OR. As for my racial background(which is irrelevant, oddly just like issues #2 and #3), is not relevant for any article I edit on wikipedia. I will ignore your racist comment. As for your continued use of "Turkish propagandist", unless you can prove I posted that(which is borderline incivility:(d) quoting another editor out of context to give the impression they hold views they do not hold, or to malign them.), I would suggest you desist in your accusations along with your little mantra of people being "emotional" and questioning the ethnic background of other editors. Your unwillingness to address your WP:OR and continued statements on my talk page of "emotional" and comments on my ethnic background is harassment. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- I would appreciate if you'd give the time to read my whole post here thoroughly, as I am tired of this and I also feel like much of it is do to misunderstandings as well as myself being overly defensive about the matter, nor do I want to even have it... You have deleted my reply to you, and I admit, perhaps I am being too confrontational there. I am sorry for my side of our dispute here (although I still do not take lightly incorrect accusations of me trying to rationalize genocide- i.e. the final stage of genocide- or that I am racist or "impudent"). In the future I acknowledge that I should discuss primarily the material and not the actions and rhetoric of other users, and I am wrong for doing so. I am writing now for two things- to reply to your accusation that I am racist (the one thing I feel I need to respond to) and to suggest a compromise. To deal with the first as fast as possible, I am sure you know the intent of that was to say that since you are not Armenian and I am not Turkish, there is no need to be so (what I call) emotional about this. But I apologize if it did offend you in any way. Can we please focus instead on the material? I am not the best diplomat, and I need to work on that. But I don't want to quarrel with you, I want to find a middle ground.
- Basically, what I propose is such. You can delete the Turkish viewpoint stuff ("Issues" #1 and #4) but leave the rest which is sourced but you call irrelevant.
- I wanted the Turkish viewpoint stuff in there so people can understand what it is that prevents the Turks from acknowledging what they did, what the psychological barrier is. But I suppose you are right in saying that it isn't sourced (even though I have personal experience hearing it plenty, that is in fact, original research as you say).
- However, the suffering of Albanians (the allies of the Turks during the First Balkan War, and at least their emotional allies during the First World War) at the hands of Serbs and Greeks is not irrelevant, as it is included in a long list of things which make Turks feel as if former Ottomon Muslims are uniquely denied historical rights, and that there is a bias against them (leading to the claim that calling what happened to the Armenians is Genocide -as is in fact historically correct- is just another manifestation of this bias). In addition, the effect of the Greek-Turkish war in the early 1920s is not unimportant either. In all three of these conflicts, Great Powers (Russia and Britain as well others such as Austria, Italy or Germany, to a lesser extent) aided the Balkan states at various points in their wars where they all attacked simultaneously the Turks and their allies (the Albanians in the First Balkan War). In my opinion, it is important for someone to know that to understand why the Turks find it very difficult to admit that they committed genocide. As I am sure you probably know, Turkish narrative about the Balkan Wars and World War I will focus on how they were being attacked by multiple enemies at the same time, often focusing on the narrative of Gallipoli where so many Turks died in small areas in a small peninsula, desperately trying to protect Anatolia and Turkish Thrace from being taken over. It also, yes, focuses on the offenses by Christian states against the Turks as well as other Muslims that fell under their control. What the Turks refuse to acknowledge is that their state had a plot to wipe out all the Armenians on their lands- precisely the one difference (aside from scale) between the actions of the Christian states and the Ottomon Empire. Atrocities committed by the Serbian, Bulgarian, Greek and Montenegrin armies were tolerated by their governments and perhaps encouraged at times, but they haven't been proven (at least not yet) to be part of an organized plan to erase the presence of a people from an area. Another element, I should note, is the Circassian Genocide, which many Turks know of (Turkey was where fleeing Circassians mainly settled in, in addition to Middle Eastern and Balkan countries to a lesser extent) and many are even descended from Circassians partially. What Russia did the Circassians is similar to what the Turks did to the Armenians- huge massacres paired with massive deportations with the explicit aim of ridding an area of a problematic ethnic group threatening control of the region. The lack of recognition for the Circassian Genocide (much less than the Armenian Genocide) also encourages the xenophobic view that the world is once again, trying to gang up on Turkey by using the Armenian Genocide, and that recognizing that as a genocide is unfair given that these other offenses (some of which could legitimately called Genocide, as is the case with the Circassians by Russia; others not) are not recognized as such. I am not saying that this is rational, as it isn't really- it is based on a feeling of victimhood and xenophobia. Nothing can deny that the Turkish government tried to systematically erase the Armenian presence in Eastern Anatolia. But I just think their views are important for the topic of explaining why the issue isn't resolved. Sorry for typing all that and if you read it all, I thank you.
Talkback
Message added 22:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Two more pages
Hi Thanks for watching for vandalism. If you can please put these two on your list: [7] and [8] beside this of course Nezami Ganjavi. Thank you and may your type multiply in wiki.--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 02:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Modern Oghuz
What do we call descendants of Oghuz tribes in English? The Muslim people in Turkey who are not Tatar, Zaza, Albanian, Kurd, Circussian, Krygiz, Georgian, Armenian are descendants of Oghuz tribes. In Turkish, we call it Türkmen (Abdülkadir Aksu Türkmen'dir); but Turkmen is used for people from Turkmenistan in English. In Turkish we also use "Oğuz" (for example Abdullah Gül Oğuz Türkü'dür), but in English it refers to historical Oghuz tribes. Kavas (talk) 21:38, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Aksu
Hasan Celal Güzel is a friend of Aksu family, he says he knows his parents, both of them are Türkmen (see the above question) and neither of them are Kurds. For the Albanian hypothesis, I found a source in Vikipedi, the source is a biography book (http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd%C3%BClkadir_Aksu). Kavas (talk) 21:41, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
Armenian article
The alleged armenian genocide is commonly referred to as "sözde ermeni soykırımı" in Turkish. This can be confirmed by any native speaker of Turkish or simply via Google. So please keep your anti-Turkic propaganda to yourself and do not edit parts you have no expertise over.
The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : LIII (July 2010)
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