- Archive of discussions June 2005-February 2006
- Archive of discussions February - March 2006
- Archive of discussions March - April 2006
- Archive of discussions April - May 2006
Nothernmost Settlements
Dear User Kafziel! Why did your remove the information given on the (abandonned) village Etah (NW-Greenland) which has been the northernmost village of the world up until a few years? Just because it is abandonned? Eureka also shows up with 0 population in this list... Greetings from Munich/Germany, K. Badenheuer
- Sorry, it was unclear whether it was vandalism or not. In the future, it would be easier for others to tell what you have done if you fill in the edit summary field to explain your changes. I have re-inserted the information. Kafziel 21:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for the speedy reaction. Maybe I should continue the work by writing an article about Etah. K.B.
USMC Portal help
Someone has decided our portal deserves to be deleted. Could use your vote here. If there are others you know that can give us a vote please put the word out. This is just like when they had to defend the Corps against Truman in 1949. Thanks in advance.--Looper5920 11:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Absinthe FAC
You have showed interest in the absinthe article and I thought I would let you know I have decided to put it up for Featured article nomination. FAC Absinthe -- Ari 00:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments on the peer review a month or so ago. If I can ever be of help to you, please let me know. youngamerican (talk) 14:24, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
- Glad I could be of help. The article looks great, and congrats on making GA status! Kafziel 14:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
You recently reverted this page to a less complete, outdated and erroneous old version, calling the additions and changes I'd made "vandalism". This is nonsense. I added much more up to date descriptions from the project's website. The ones that were there before (now back again thanks to you) are outdated and _inaccurate_.
I only deleted one or two completely and demonstrably inaccurate claims, and a couple long outdated claims: that the Lancet study is "the official estimate" ("official" how?), and the Media Lens claim that IBC is a "Western Media Body Count" which is demonstrably false when looking at their sources list, which includes dozens of non-Western media sources.
Other than this, I left most of the content alone, just added to it. (The page looked like it mostly hadn't been touched since 2003 and some of the stuff there was clearly long out-dated). And I added a whole new section detailing recent criticisms and responses from IBC, which I tried to present in a value-judgment-neutral manner, unlike others who came after me and "vandalized" that section adding in their value-judgments about the IBC response (along with other false information).
The page you reverted to is far inferior to anyone wanting to know about the project than the one resulting from the changes I'd made, which is far more informative and accurate. I hope you'll reconsider this move, which I would consider more "vandalism" on your part than anything I'd done.
If you would prefer that wiki readers be misinformed by wholly inaccurate and long outdated material, by all means call my contributions "vandalism" and revert back to the misinformation. If you would prefer that wiki readers have an accurate and informative page to read, which actually gets the facts right, please allow my changes to stand.
- I could not find a single constructive, unbiased edit made to that article in the past month. I did not, however, call your contributions vandalism; the program I used to revert the edits is VandalProof, but I did not issue any warnings to you or anyone else. I will take another look at the article and I may re-insert anything accurate and/or useful that I might have overlooked, but for the most part it was nothing but 30 days of catty back and forth between two anonymous editors. Kafziel 20:11, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This is not true. The edit I made: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Iraq_Body_Count_project&oldid=51660666
was not in response to any other anonymous user. It was an update filled with constructive and informative additions (current description from the IBC database, rather than outdated and inaccurate one; addition of value-judgment-neutral section on recent crticism, with new links to these pieces and IBC's response..etc.)
And I deleted a few outright false sentences, such as those I described earlier, and an outright false description of IBC.
I tried to make this as value-judgment-neutral and objectively accurate as possible. It was not in response to anybody in particular, just a long-outdated page which also contained inaccuracies. Someone else then came in and added (over what I'd done) biased value-judgments and catty attacks on the project and its "founder john sloboda" (again inaccurate, JS is only a co-founder and he didn't say what the anonymous poster added). I just reverted these back to what i had written, but i did leave a couple of the additions made by that person, but tried to remove the catty and factually inaccurate points.
If you really examine my original revision (linked above), you should see that it is 1) more accurate than the previous one you reverted back to which has several falsehoods, and 2) far more informative about the project.
To clarify what I had edited, the page you reverted to states: "For official estimate of number of casualties see Lancet survey of mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq."
This is false an inappropriate for an IBC page. The Lancet survey is one study, and how is it the "official estimate"? Aside from that inaccuracy, this line is no more appropriate than adding "For official estimate see Iraq Body Count" to the wiki page on the Lancet study.
Next it has an outdated and false description of IBC: "This includes civilian deaths resulting from the breakdown in law and order and deaths due to inadequate health care or sanitation."
The IBC db includes no deaths from "inadequate health care or sanitation". It only includes violent civilian deaths. That phrase was on the IBC page for a time at the beginning of the occupation phase of the war, but it was changed and it is simply not true. So, I changed this to the current description from the db, which is accurate.
I also added one more stated "aim" in the "projects aims" section
I also added more (entirely accurate) information to the "Method" section
I also left in the previous stuff about "pro-Iraqi source, and the Allies" which makes no sense except in the context of the original 2003 invasion, but makes no sense now. The wording of that part really should be changed at least, but I decided to leave it alone.
I then added a section on "Criticism" which presented the facts in a value-neutral fashion. Critics have argued X. IBC has responded arguing Y. Then with links to these pieces.
I feel this vastly improved the page and made it more accurate and informative, while being un-biased. The person who came after me began with the opinionated and catty additions, ie: the IBC response was a "weak response", "the founder" John Sloboda smeared the whole anti-war movement..etc. etc.
I hope you will consider my original revision as a valid, informative, and unbiased update to the page, and not hold me or it responsible for someone else deciding to add opinionated smears afterward.
- I'm content to leave it as you have it now. I still think the article has a lot of information it shouldn't—if its title is "Iraqi Body Count project", it should be about the project itself, not mirroring all of the project's information and conclusions—but I'm willing to let it go. There are certainly worse pages out there. Kafziel 14:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- Well, i'm not averse to changes. What parts in the latest one do you think should not be there?
- I don't think their findings should be mirrored here; the body count section should be removed. The count itself is disputed, as is noted in the article. The rest of the information in that section (where they get their info, how it is organized, etc.) should be used as references in the article or discarded. The article is about the project, not to be used to reprint the project's results. If they are relevant to specific aspects of the project, they should be footnotes. If not, they shouldn't be there.
- Again, I'm not going to insist on the changes, but I recommend them. Kafziel 17:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- Well, i'm not averse to changes. What parts in the latest one do you think should not be there?
- Ok, but note that the "body count" section was there before I got there, and was in the edition to which you reverted. Someone else put it there long before me, and I didn't touch it. And I'm not sure what the count being disputed has to do with it. Any studies of controversial subjects like war deaths are usually disputed ones, yet most pages on such studies tend to include presentations of their results. So I'm not sure I follow the reasoning.
- I say again, I never blamed you for the content or accused you of vandalism.
- I understand.
- As for the other pages with body counts, most use official government sources. There are, of course, exceptions to that but, as my mother used to say, two wrongs do not make a right. I'm not interested in what inferior pages are doing in comparison; I am only interested in what will make a good article.
- With all respect (and I'm not sure you even care to be discussing this any further) this doesn't make any sense. Any page that is itself *about* a particular body count would seem ridiculous if it doesn't describe the body count. That's what the project is. Another example of another Iraqi deaths study (again, not official or government source) is the Lancet study. The first thing on the page is its conclusions, and it goes on to give detailed descriptions of all its conclusions. You don't believe it should do this? Is it an "inferior page"? Should the descriptions of its findings be removed?
- Of course, it could also be argued (and in many cases it would be true) that government sources are not to be trusted, either. But whether they are trustworthy or not, no one has more unrestricted access to personnel files, casualty reports, and front-line information.
- Seems like a false dichotomy. It could just be argued that all studies into controversial matters as these are un-trusted by some, and that it is not clear what your point is about "trust" or why it's relevant.
- It basically boils down to the fact that this article is not about the Iraq War, it is about the Iraq body count project. Casualty lists belong in the article about the war itself. If the results of this project are not sufficiently notable or trustworthy to be used as a source in that article, then they should not be here at all. Kafziel 19:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- I looked and it is noted in the Iraq war article and the Iraq war Casualties article, along with other non-official/non-government studies, which is pretty much all there is out there on this topic. Your view here just doesn't make sense to me. The project *is* a casualty list. Sure, the Body Count section in the article could be condensed, but that's what the project is. You seem to feel the article describing a body count should not describe the count. This just doesn't make sense.
- But this is not an article describing a body count. It's an article describing a body count project. Casualties of the conflict in Iraq since 2003 is an article about a body count, and that is where (if anywhere) this information should be. It's not about a website, it's about a body count.
- When describing a website, it's not necessary to mirror the information from that site. The Wall Street Journal article doesn't list today's stock values. The eBay article doesn't list all the latest auctions. The Fantasy baseball article doesn't show the players' standings. Describe what they do, how they do it, perhaps why they do it. Don't list all of their results.
- By the way, please sign your discussions by typing four ~ in a row at the end of your message. That will automatically add a signature with the date and time. Kafziel 12:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- I looked and it is noted in the Iraq war article and the Iraq war Casualties article, along with other non-official/non-government studies, which is pretty much all there is out there on this topic. Your view here just doesn't make sense to me. The project *is* a casualty list. Sure, the Body Count section in the article could be condensed, but that's what the project is. You seem to feel the article describing a body count should not describe the count. This just doesn't make sense.
Re:River people
I've reverted the move, and applied move protection to allow consensus to form on talk page first. Cheers, Petros471 21:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks very much! Kafziel 21:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Of course I am assuming good faith. It is not an assumption of bad faith to list transgressions and misrepresentations there where such took place. ObRoy 21:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- You immediately accused him of POV edits to the article, when he has done no such thing. As you can see from the discussion page, I didn't understand what he did, either, so I asked questions and listened to the answers. What he did made sense. If you think the "princess" bit should be removed, you are welcome to open your own move request. Kafziel 21:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- In my understanding, it is POV to affirm a title of pretension to a pretender. The fact remains that he made an edit, namely a move, when a request for move was under discussion, and moved the article to a location which now says "crown princess".
Personally, I find it somewhat hypocritical at this your situation not to warn him being possibly with malice when immediately accusing someones of "move against agreement..." ObRoy 21:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)- He explained that he moved it because it had been unfairly moved in the first place. The burden is on the first person who wants to move it, not on the rest of the community after it has been unfairly moved. Now that it is back to where it was before, a request can be started to move it to a new location. Kafziel 21:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- Honestly, I find something to be somewhat hypocritical. Anyway, the original page was at Marie-Chantal Miller (parhaps it would be fairest to return it there). It never was at the current location (which is POV in my opinion) more than three days (which took place in August 2005). Therefore I also find it rather incredible that you explain that certain move having been "unfair". ObRoy 21:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- He explained that he moved it because it had been unfairly moved in the first place. The burden is on the first person who wants to move it, not on the rest of the community after it has been unfairly moved. Now that it is back to where it was before, a request can be started to move it to a new location. Kafziel 21:35, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- In my understanding, it is POV to affirm a title of pretension to a pretender. The fact remains that he made an edit, namely a move, when a request for move was under discussion, and moved the article to a location which now says "crown princess".
Spanish Habsburgs
Please assume good faith when dealing with other editors. See Wikipedia:Assume good faith for the guidelines on this. You are welcome to check those uncles and nieces for example using [1] ObRoy 21:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
- This note was left by ObRoy on his first day at Wikipedia, as retaliation for my posting a warning to him. He seems to be improving after some further discussion on his talk page.
travail en perruque
Good evening. If you are interested by the subject, you can read [Michel Anteby, Sociology in labor] where there is few lines in english. --Barbetorte 16:03, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
you welcomed me?
you welcomed me! seems good but i have been here for a long time and then when i tried to add some of my own content, i registered, that was sometime ago but since that didnt work so didnt add more. I still have my right to say what I want and I did in there. I also have my historic study and Family legacy to backout what I claim.
- That "welcome" was a notice that your statements will likely not be considered. You do have the right to say what you want, but the only past edits you have are from vandalizing the page in question. That would explain why they "didn't work" and why they will continue to not work. Kafziel 20:51, 17 May 2006 (UTC)