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Adi Sankara
There is absolutely no evidence to show he was a Tamil, considering all his writings are in Sanskrit.Pied Hornbill (talk) 18:43, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Good reasoning. Its a common mistake in Indian history to connect historical people to current demographics of the region they were born in. Similarly, there is no evidence to show that Ramanuja (born in Sriperumbudur, Tamil Nadu) was a Tamil, or that Madhvacharya (Pajaka, Udupi, Karnataka state) was a Kannada speaker. These were Brahmin saints who espoused the cause of Brahminical Hinduism, the Vedas and Upanishad (Hindu scriptures written in Sanskrit) and as such, the naturalization of Brahmins into the local South Indian languages was a slow process that fully culminated only after the 15th century.Mayasandra (talk) 19:59, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Pied Hornbill, @Mayasandra: Indeed, there is uncertainty. Yet, there is "increased likelihood" too after decades of recent scholarship. Some Dharmasutras, from the last centuries of the 1st millennium BCE, are likely from their South Indian states, all composed beautifully in Sanskrit. That language was used, in ancient and medieval times, likely because it was the language of the primary texts (Upanishads, Vedas), as well as Sanskrit's highly developed grammar and structure, plus its reach among the then scholars (just like the reach of English in our times). Not only did South Indians write in Sanskrit (in different scripts such as Nandinagari), so did Buddhism and Jainism scholars (e.g. Umaswati, 2-5th century CE). The earliest known Sanskrit South Indian inscriptions are in Nagarjunakonda, from early 1st millennium. There is a good book by Rick Salomon, published by Oxford University Press for more on all this. In Adi Shankara article, consider accepting @JJ's version, perhaps with an added 'refn' style note on uncertainty and competing claims. @JJ and you may have other creative ideas to reach a consensus compromise. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:29, 2 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks MSW. I recall that my 'creative idea' here was a chain of thought: a Tamil state; Shankara was a Shaivist; Shaivism may be older than Vedic-Brahmanic religiosity; Shaivism has monistic tendencies; Shankara is seen as a Vedic orthodox, but maybe he was expressing non-Vedic thoughts in Vedic language, "infiltrating" Vedic orthodoxy, so to speak; Shankara gained more prominence when the north was subdued by the Muslims, and the south was taking a stand, creating or strengthening their Hindu-identity; this is when he came to be regarded/portrayed as a Vedic orthodox; compare Ramana Maharshi, a folk Shaivite holy men and Bhakta, who's regarded by many as an Advaita Vedantin - what a stretch of imagination!; south Indian Hindu identity may actually be a Harappan-Dravidian identity which spread over India before the Indo-Aryans and the Vedic orthodoxy of the Kuru kingdom. Everyone still following my thoughts? :) And indeed, Shankara writing in Sanskrit does not mean he couldn't have been a Tamil. We're all writing here in English; well, I'm definitely not English. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Se also Why did Adi Sankaracharya propagate his teachings and writing in Sanskrit? NB: he's also credited with organising the Dashanami Sampradaya, and he opposed the Mimamsa ritualism. And he's also regarded as a 'crypto-Buddhist.' Not exactly the kind of brave householder the Vedic orthodox Brahmans may have preferred... Well, 'eat your enemy,' so to speak, incorporate him into your tradition, just like the Buddha became an avatar of Vishnu. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:15, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks MSW. I recall that my 'creative idea' here was a chain of thought: a Tamil state; Shankara was a Shaivist; Shaivism may be older than Vedic-Brahmanic religiosity; Shaivism has monistic tendencies; Shankara is seen as a Vedic orthodox, but maybe he was expressing non-Vedic thoughts in Vedic language, "infiltrating" Vedic orthodoxy, so to speak; Shankara gained more prominence when the north was subdued by the Muslims, and the south was taking a stand, creating or strengthening their Hindu-identity; this is when he came to be regarded/portrayed as a Vedic orthodox; compare Ramana Maharshi, a folk Shaivite holy men and Bhakta, who's regarded by many as an Advaita Vedantin - what a stretch of imagination!; south Indian Hindu identity may actually be a Harappan-Dravidian identity which spread over India before the Indo-Aryans and the Vedic orthodoxy of the Kuru kingdom. Everyone still following my thoughts? :) And indeed, Shankara writing in Sanskrit does not mean he couldn't have been a Tamil. We're all writing here in English; well, I'm definitely not English. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:35, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
@JJ: Isaeva and others mention the uncertainty about the early life of Adi Shankara, and inconsistent fictional details in different hagiographies. He is indeed placed in South India in these works, from what we now call Kerala/Tamil Nadu/Karnataka. Kerala is the favored one (see pages 70-72 of Isaeva's book on Shankara). These are guesses, not proof though. You are right, indeed, that Shankara writing in Sanskrit does not mean he couldn't have been Tamil.
On crypto-this or crypto-that, we should ignore it. These ancient and medieval Indians had a very rich tradition of public debates, in a manner similar to the Greeks, where they would use all tools of rhetoric, including silly name calling, to press their point. Set aside Veda-inspired Hindus and their internal debates. Buddhists called Jaina and Charvaka scholars with similar crypto-this and crypto-that too, Jaina criticized Ajivikas/Charvakas/Buddhists too, Ajivikas didn't hold back either, etc. They all tried "eat your enemy" as you put it. The Hindus/Buddhists/Jaina all tried "embrace your enemy with tough love, and stand your ground" - read their ancient and medieval texts. This name calling and personal attacks are the sort we see sometimes (often?) in our political campaigns, where a few are fighting for minds and hearts of many. It is amazing how passionately the ancient/medieval Indians pursued ideas, pursued spirituality, each in their own lovely ways. Southeast Asians, Chinese and Japanese too. The competing sects of Buddhism in southeast Asia tried the same "eat your enemy" approach, as did others. See Seiwert's pages 99-123, for what happened in medieval China, as an example.
On Sanskrit, it was just the means of expression, the real fascinating debate was about the meaning of the expressed. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:05, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for these comments. Its important for @JJ not to draw conclusions that Sankara was a Shaivite, or that he was a Tamil based on Aryan/Dravidian theories, especially considering these theories themselves are lost in a mist of uncertainties. Without literary, epigraphic or any other written evidence, with some secondary sources from medieval India corroborating it, its nothing but hand waving to come to any conclusions. Good luck.Mayasandra (talk) 16:26, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Are you serious: "not to draw conclusions that Sankara was a Shaivite"? What do you think he was? A Krisha-bhakta? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 19:28, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Mayasandra: Evidence suggests, as @JJ notes, that Shankara's name had been strongly linked to Shaivism heritage. Shankara did see this saguna -> nirguna as a transitory phase. Krishna is more linked to Ramanuja and particularly to Madhvacharya. Yet, the ontological differences between Ramanuja and Shankara are narrower, than say Madhvacharya and Shankara (the criticism of Advaita-Hindus/Buddhists by Madhva is intense, but perhaps not surprising if we compassionately view the polemics from Madhva's theistic premises and passion). For Shaivism-Shankara-Gaudapada connection, see Jones and Ryan, Encyclopedia of Hinduism, page 402; and Isaeva's From Early Vedanta to Kashmir Shaivism. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:43, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
Adi Shankara accepted Krishna as Ishvara and came from a Vaishnavaite background. See the academic book Krishna: A Sourcebook pages 4, 12, 312. The reason modern Shankaracharyas are Saivas is because they combined Vedanta with some Saiva tantra.VictoriaGraysonTalk 22:03, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Goddess tradition too! See page 313 of that Bryant edited Krishna Sourcebook text as well, or that whole chapter by Lance Nelson. The Bhagavata Purana and other texts of Vaishnavism and many Shaktism texts are Advaitic, most Agamas and key texts of Shaivism more so. That doesn't affect the validity of @JJ's comments and summary in that article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 22:33, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Am I wrong if I think that Saivism is much "older," a local variant of the much wider spread Mother goddess worship; mother Earth and father Heaven? Predating the Vedic influences on Indian religions? And that Vaishnaism is more linked with these vedic influences and the Kuru kingdom? Also, Smartism is often mentioned as the fourth main tradition in Hinduism; wouldn't it be more accurate to speak of [(Saivism/Shaktism), Shrauta, Vaishnaism (theistic Vedanta)) Smartism (Advaita Vedanta)]? Shrauta may be small in numbers, but comes closest to the original Vedic religion, doesn't it? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:40, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
@JJ: Evidence suggests the roots of Shaivism are ancient (there is a 3rd/2nd-century BCE major linga temple at Gudimallam, for example). Vaishnavism is ancient as well (there is the 3rd/2nd-century Ghosundi inscription, the 2nd/1st century BCE Heliodorus pillar and the 1st-century BCE Western Ghats Nanaghat inscription with Vasudeva/Bhagavatism). Tantra is ancient (but Tantra meant something different for a very long time, not the "intimate" sense of meaning ascribed in the modern era). Shiva/Shakti is ancient, as is Vishnu/Sri, and both had Tantra. Upanishadic influence is traceable to Shaivism and Vaishnavism from last centuries of BCE. Shrautism/Smartism emerged later, likely after Mimamsa/Vedanta split. While Atman-Brahman ideas are from pre-600 BCE, the names Rudra/Narayana/Saraswati/etc are too, but pre-600 BCE evidence for Shaivism/Vaishnavism/Shaktism is missing. But, "absence of evidence" is not "evidence of absence", it epistemically only implies "we don't know".
We do know of textual evidence on all this too (which is often questionable, interpolated? inserted later?). Consider Krishna/Vaishnavism: Panini's 5th century BCE classic on grammar mentions the word Vasudevaka, confirmed to be authentic because it is discussed in the 2nd century BCE Patanjali's Mahabhasya classic on Panini (see Dasgupta's book published by Cambridge University Press, etc). Beyond that evidence is missing and we don't know, except for fictional treasured fringe-y hagiographies that push dates with amazing OR to 3000 to 4000 BCE for Shaiva/Vaishnava/Shakti-Tantra by some (see Talk:Andal for an example of Vaishnavism 3000 BCE claim, with angry accusations that wiki contributors like me hate Hindus, because we are questioning these ~3000 BCE fringe-y claims, and because we insist on adding scholarly 8th/9th century CE dates for Andal from WP:RS).
Shaivism, just like Vaishnavism, is interesting with deep roots. It may be older, but like yoga and Pashupati seal, there is that possibility that we are projecting later practices into ancient artifacts. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:59, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
- Shiva is from the Shri Rudram Chamakam.VictoriaGraysonTalk 18:46, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
Upload request
Hello sir,
Sir please can you upload the title card of the show Tashan-e-Ishq in the article Tashan-e-Ishq. The image comes under
.
The image can be found here. Please upload it, the image is owned by Zee TV. 103.225.183.129 (talk) 05:06, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Drmies and Bishonen: what's this? See also the link which was changed. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:10, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Sir when you open this changed link you will se a list of shows in which one of the shows is Tashan-e-Ishq. Above this name there is an image please upload that image. The image is not having any independent url. It needs to be downloaded from the changed url which is this. It is owned by Zee TV. Please upload it
- 103.225.183.129 (talk) 05:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Why should I do that, and why do you ask me? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:42, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Oh!! I am sorry I thought I can ask you. Earlier I had asked u for help. Sorry. 103.225.183.129 (talk) 07:43, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
- Well, it's just tht this IP-adress is unknown to me. So, who are you? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:56, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
3 problems with the 4 denominations of Saivism, Vaishnavism, Saktism and Smarta:
- Problem 1: Vaikhanasas, who are commonly the priest you find in Hindu temples, are a Vedic sakha and follow the Smriti. They are distinct from Srivaishnava who follow the tantric Pancharatra. So Vaikhanasas have much more in common with Smarta than they do with Srivaishnava even though both are Vaishnava.
- Problem 2: Only Brahmins have denominations. (Ignoring cults like Hare Krishna)
- Problem 3: Omits Srauta.
The Solution: Explain that there are 3 denominations of Hinduism. Those who follow the Srauta. Those who follow the Smriti. Those who follow the Tantras.VictoriaGraysonTalk 07:34, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- That's nice! Ehm... how about the scholarly resarch? Isn't the Saivism-Vaishnavism-Saktism-Smarta supposed to be the 'standard' division? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:39, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- No, not at all. Where did you get that idea? VictoriaGraysonTalk 13:04, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- That's what the Hinduism-article says, isn't it? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 13:18, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- No, not at all. Where did you get that idea? VictoriaGraysonTalk 13:04, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- @JJ: "Tradition" is the better term, see Jones and Ryan's article on Vaishnavism in the Encyclopedia of Hinduism, page 474 (or the recent Blackwell Companion to Hinduism). Julius Lipner is a good WP:RS on this, and he states "sampradayas" are best understood as denominations within each tradition (page 398, Lipner's Hindus: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:23, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- @VictoriaGrayson: Do you have a source for your "Problems 1-3"? How is this different from your flawed arguments on Talk:Smarta Tradition, which @JJ and I have responded to there. I have all the Gudrun Bühnemann literature on Smarta on my desk, and I believe you have misunderstood Bühnemann. Have you read Bühnemann's Smarta-related publications completely, rather than a few selective pages? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:23, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- Where does Srauta fit into these 4 denominations? It doesn't.VictoriaGraysonTalk 16:44, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
@VictoriaGrayson: See Jan Gonda's Vedic Ritual, Brill Academic, ISBN 978-9004062108. The book is on Shrauta and non-Shrauta, its historical development, with rituals focus. Shrauta-sutras are interesting too, but WP:Primary. Indeed, Shrauta doesn't fit as a separate significant tradition, and is sort of embedded in all of them. A Hindu wedding, for example, is a Vedic fire ritual, though with post-Vedic influences. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- Srauta and Smarta are two halves of a Vedic Sakha. You cannot mention Smarta and ignore Srauta. And the Hindu wedding fire ritual is Vedic Smarta, not Vedic Srauta.VictoriaGraysonTalk 20:34, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- As modern denominations? any WP:RS? If that was just a general comment, agreed, yes, Sruti -> Shrauta, and Smriti -> Smarta. Should we collaborate on improving the Shrauta article? It is currently a weak and incomplete article. I am fine if you prefer to work on it alone. You could use the above Jan Gonda's book, John Bowker's The message and the book published by Yale University Press, Brian Hatcher's Hinduism in the Modern World etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:54, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- Srauta is practiced in the modern day. The book "Vedic Voices" chronicles this.VictoriaGraysonTalk 04:10, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- As modern denominations? any WP:RS? If that was just a general comment, agreed, yes, Sruti -> Shrauta, and Smriti -> Smarta. Should we collaborate on improving the Shrauta article? It is currently a weak and incomplete article. I am fine if you prefer to work on it alone. You could use the above Jan Gonda's book, John Bowker's The message and the book published by Yale University Press, Brian Hatcher's Hinduism in the Modern World etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:54, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
Proposed deletion of Sex-androgyny in mythology
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The article Sex-androgyny in mythology has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:
- Over-reliant on huge quotes. Neither comprehensive nor specialized enough to warrant its own article. Consider merging any usable content into related articles.
While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.
You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}}
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Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}}
will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 22:49, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- @CorbieVreccan: no problem; go ahead. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 01:50, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
@JJ: I like your edits to Vaishnavism so far. Let me know if I can help in any way. Some additional WP:RS on Vaishnavism: [1] Chapter 8: Vaishnava by Francis Clooney and Tony Stewart, in The Hindu World (Ed: Mittal and Thursby), Routledge, ISBN 978-0415772273, pages 162-184. [2] The Journal of Vaishnava Studies has been publishing peer reviewed content on Vaishnavism. [3] On history, in addition to some Krishna/Vasudeva sources I mentioned earlier, the chapters by Michael Witzel and others in Vaishnavism (Ed: Rosen), ISBN 978-8120812352. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:14, 6 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Ms Sarah Welch: never realized that "Hinduism" is so complicated... And so 'non-Vedic'. How about the merger-proposal? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 01:52, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
- @JJ: Fine move/merge. Just like Krishnaism, the Ramaism has been significant. Each has literature, traditions, pilgrimage, festivals, etc. Ramaism, for example, has had influential monastic movements (e.g. monks who metamorphosed into warriors, but generally peaceful, they are now one of the world's largest monastic groups, their claimed founder influenced Guru Nanak of Sikhism, etc). Ramaism texts are interesting, such as Adhyatma Ramayana, now found embedded in Brahmanda Purana, and is one of Advaita Vedanta classics, and the text is a syncretism of Rama (Vishnuism), Sita (Shaktism), Advaita and Yoga. Then we Vithoba-ism, particularly in parts of their Deccan region, which is also an aspect of Vaishnavism. Madhvacharya and Dvaita school was a Christianity-like Vishnu-centered theistic movement, another aspect of Vaishnavism. Their Bengal, Assam and Manipur regions had their own brilliant texts and thinkers. Of course, one of the Vaishnavism's philosophical stars was Ramanuja with his Vedanta sub-school. There is more. You write 'so complicated', I write 'yes indeed'. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:02, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
JJ, Hinduism is not that complicated. You have Srauta on one extreme. Tantra (which introduces idols and Hindu temples) is on the other extreme. Smriti is a hybrid of the two and uses the mantras of Vedas with the idols of Tantra.VictoriaGraysonTalk 18:42, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
- There is a 1000+ year discussion on the differences between the two? Agama (Pancaratra tantra in Vaishnavism) texts are, to many scholars, nothing but same wine (vedic ideas) in a different bottle. Vaishnava, Shaiva and Shakta scholars have long explained it as "the Vedas are the cow, the Agama Tantras is the cow's milk". Shrauta, Smriti and Tantra are describing the same space of ideas, as Cartesian, Cylindrical and Spherical coordinate systems describing the same space of points. Just read the sutras/samhitas of each. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:44, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- The ideas of the Pancaratra are the opposite of Srauta. Srauta entails mass animal sacrifice. Pancaratra has the typical Hindu puja of water and flower offerings.VictoriaGraysonTalk 01:32, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- @VictoriaGrayson: Have you read any Srautasutra? If yes, which one states "Srauta entails mass animal sacrifice"? Of course, you have a right to believe in whatever wisdom/prejudice/etc you want to, but it is always better to have an open mind and verify one's assumptions. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:49, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- I have read "Vedic Voices" by Knipe, Michael Witzel and some translations of Brahmanas. To deny Srauta involves animal sacrifice is to go against both indigenous and scholarly perspectives. VictoriaGraysonTalk 03:43, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- @VictoriaGrayson: Have you read any Srautasutra? If yes, which one states "Srauta entails mass animal sacrifice"? Of course, you have a right to believe in whatever wisdom/prejudice/etc you want to, but it is always better to have an open mind and verify one's assumptions. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:49, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
@VictoriaGrayson: Well, then identify the page number and WP:RS, or the Shrautasutra, or the Brahmana. Where did David Knipe or Michael Witzel ever generalize and write ""Srauta entails mass animal sacrifice"? Page number with ISBN or link please? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 06:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
(ps....@JJ and his talk page readers: Yes, some Vedic rituals such as Asvamedha involved horse sacrifice and this is mentioned in the Vedas for example, but textual evidence suggests that almost all srauta rituals had no actual animal sacrifice. The biggest ritual Agnistoma had none. There is the Pashubandha ritual which does mention animal sacrifice, but then almost all versions substitute a vegetable as a symbolism for animal (or pista-pashu, a flour-paste animal). Most smaller rituals involved yajna fire, grains, seeds, clarified butter, etc.; For srauta, tantra and substitution of animal with something else, in BCE times, see: Brian Smith's Reflections on Resemblance, Ritual, and Religion, pages 172-199. This probably happened because of Ahimsa concepts that developed in 1st millennium BCE, with Jainism likely leading their sentiments. But, wait for @VictoriaGrayson to provide page numbers and sources, let us read them, and get informed.) Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 06:05, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Srauta is still practiced today. And Agnistoma is the simplest Srauta yajna, not the biggest:
The initiatory rite for this leap into extended sacrifices is the agni-stoma pg. 44 Vedic Voices
Vedic ritual texts imagine an ideal progression through a number of sacrifices—extensive and quite expensive—after the agni-stoma. pg. 220 Vedic Voices
And Agnistoma requires the killing of atleast two goats:
A goat is bound to a pole and sacrificed by suffocation. pg. 45 Vedic Voices
After first offering and then drinking soma, the priests sacrifice a second goat and conclude the agni-stoma with a ritual bath. pg. 45 Vedic Voices
VictoriaGraysonTalk 14:13, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- @VictoriaGrayson: Again, read your comments above, the strange "You have Srauta on one extreme. Tantra is on the other extreme. Smriti is a hybrid of the two" and "Srauta entails mass animal sacrifice"? where does David Knipe ever generalize and write that? Just give plain answers, with WP:RS and page numbers, and quit wasting your and my effort. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:23, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- Knipe explains different amount of animals for different yajnas. VictoriaGraysonTalk 14:26, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
@VictoriaGrayson: Did you miss or haven't read the pages where David Knipe mentions vegetable and flour-paste substitutes? Apastamba Srauta-sutra dedicates 106 chapters to Agnistoma, starting at 10.1, this is much longer than any other ritual. Longer implies complicated, not simple. You mustn't have read any Shrauta-sutra. Consider, but don't rely too much on David Knipe, because it is a record of an anecdotal practice in a village. Knipe repeatedly mentions problems and disagreements between the locals. Generalizing Knipe's WP:Primary anecdotal record needs a lot of care and caution.
Let us consider what other scholars state. A peer reviewed study by Michael Witzel, in 2015, discusses, "how Vedic (Srauta) rituals changed over time". In there is a chapter starting at page 67, which describes Buddhist records on vedic rituals. Here is a quote (I kept it short because of fair use concerns, but encourage you to read the book):
Section: Buddhist Reinterpretation of Vedic Fires and Sacrifices
(...) The Buddha also criticizes the Brahmins for their decadence and failure to live in conformity with the Brahmanic legacy of the ancient Brahmins. In one of his discourses he tells an assembly of Brahmins that the ancient Brahmins lived in self-restraint and were ascetics. They had no cattle, no gold, and no wealth. They had study as their grain and wealth, guarded the holy life as their treasure, and praised morality, austerity and nonviolence. They performed sacrifices consisting of rice, barley and oil, but they did not kill cows.— Michael Witzel (2015), Homa Variations: The Study of Ritual Change Across the Longue Durée, Oxford University Press, page 86
Clearly, this is discussing the prior history and the nature of vedic sacrifices before and at the time of Buddha. It mentions what was sacrificed, what wasn't, and the nonviolence principle before Buddha. @JJ: The book is interesting in other chapters too, where it describes homa/vedic sacrifice ritual grammar that is found in Tibet and Japan, etc. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 20:35, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- Page 86 of Homa Variations is not by Michael Witzel, nor about actual history. Its about a discourse of the Buddha criticizing animal sacrifice:
"The Buddha also criticizes the Brahmins for their decadence and failure to live in conformity with the Brahmanic legacy (dhamma) of the ancient Brahmins. In one of his discourses he tells an assembly of Brahmins that the ancient Brahmins lived in self-restraint and were ascetics. They had no cattle, no gold, and no wealth. They had study as their grain and wealth, guarded the holy life as their treasure, and praised morality, austerity and nonviolence. They performed sacrifices consisting of rice, barley and oil, but they did not kill the cows. However, eventually things have changed. The Brahmins saw the wealth and prosperity of the king, his cows and women, and they coveted his riches. They composed hymns and induced the king to sacrifice his wealth. The king consented, sponsored sacrifices, and bestowed wealth on the Brahmins. Once they received wealth, the Brahmins became overcome by greed and craved for more. This time, they induced the king to sacrifice his cows. The king complied and had thousands of cows killed in sacrifices. When the cows were slaughtered, the gods and forefathers protested against their slaughter as being against the Law (adhamma). The Buddha concludes his discourse by stating that the slaughter of innocent animals is unlawful and that those who perform bloody sacrifices deviate from the true Dhamma."
- Witzel says Srauta has animal sacrifice. Witzel's chapter of Blackwell Companion of Hinduism says:
"The Pasubandha or “Animal Sacrifice” (Schwab 1886) is also integrated into the Soma ritual, and involves the killing of an animal. The inauspicious effect of killing is undone by involving substitution for the Adhvaryu priests and “bloodless” suffocation outside the actual offering ground; both are major features of the Srauta mind set, as exemplified by the foundational (charter) myth of the Asvins as the Adhvaryu priests of the gods." pg.80 of Blackwell Companion of Hinduism
VictoriaGraysonTalk 21:16, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
Research Question
Hi JJ. I was wondering if you knew about any tibetan or vajrayana practices that are similar to the circular breathing patterns used in taoist microcosmic orbit and in Babaji's kriya yoga. I am looking into connections between these sagittal-plane circular paths in the subtle body and how they may have influenced each other, and a himalayan or buddhist practice would make a great theoretical connection. You seemed like the right guy to ask! Thanks! Iṣṭa Devatā (talk) 04:35, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- Since kriya yoga is a modern invention, the question makes no sense.VictoriaGraysonTalk 04:54, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
- @Iṣṭa Devatā: I'm just a simple Zennie, when it comes down to meditation-practice: "Sit down and shut up!" So, I know nothing about "circular breathing practices," at least not that I am aware of. I don't even know what it is! Sorry. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:59, 10 April 2016 (UTC)