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::: When you say you are working "to get access to these high demand resources" do you mean the top four news outlets that I mentioned? If that is correct, is there any reason that you could not regularly share your progress with the editors? In my experience it improves morale when management shares that sort of information with those who are out in the field doing the work. Especially in this case where the workers are not getting the proper tools they need to put out the best product possible. Remember that editors take pride in helping to put together and keep up this project. Note that a while back Atsme asked "What more can I do to help?". That really touched me and I hope that it had the same effect on you and others in management. [[User:Gandydancer|Gandydancer]] ([[User talk:Gandydancer|talk]]) 16:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC) |
::: When you say you are working "to get access to these high demand resources" do you mean the top four news outlets that I mentioned? If that is correct, is there any reason that you could not regularly share your progress with the editors? In my experience it improves morale when management shares that sort of information with those who are out in the field doing the work. Especially in this case where the workers are not getting the proper tools they need to put out the best product possible. Remember that editors take pride in helping to put together and keep up this project. Note that a while back Atsme asked "What more can I do to help?". That really touched me and I hope that it had the same effect on you and others in management. [[User:Gandydancer|Gandydancer]] ([[User talk:Gandydancer|talk]]) 16:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC) |
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::::That's a great idea and I'll have a think about how we might make that process more open so folks can follow our progress. Perhaps a Phabricator board could work? [[User:Samwalton9 (WMF)|Samwalton9 (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Samwalton9 (WMF)|talk]]) 18:05, 12 May 2020 (UTC) |
::::That's a great idea and I'll have a think about how we might make that process more open so folks can follow our progress. Perhaps a Phabricator board could work? [[User:Samwalton9 (WMF)|Samwalton9 (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Samwalton9 (WMF)|talk]]) 18:05, 12 May 2020 (UTC) |
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::::{{re|Atsme|Gandydancer}} Just a quick update that this morning I pulled together the start of a partnerships Phabricator board for the project, which you can now find at [https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/the-wikipedia-library-partnerships/ The-Wikipedia-Library-Partnerships]. I haven't got to importing everything yet, but I think I've covered most of the high priority or actively under discussion publishers. Also of interest, while I was pulling this together, is that I discovered our impending ProQuest partnership contains the [https://www.proquest.com/products-services/nationalsnews_shtml.html US Newsstream] collection via ProQuest Central, in which it looks like you'll be able to find The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, and more current newspapers! [[User:Samwalton9 (WMF)|Samwalton9 (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Samwalton9 (WMF)|talk]]) 12:13, 13 May 2020 (UTC) |
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=== now ''I'D'' pay for [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/may/06/trump-live-and-let-die-video this] === |
=== now ''I'D'' pay for [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/may/06/trump-live-and-let-die-video this] === |
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Revision as of 12:13, 13 May 2020
Using your influence
Hi Jimmy. I hope you survived your monster cookie without cholesterol poisoning.
I think it would be great if you could make strategic use of your profile as "Mr. Wikipedia" to engage corporations like Amazon to work on a long-standing issue that I think you care about. Consider, for example, this AIDS denialist bullshit or the promotion of bleach as a miracle cure (cf. Miracle Mineral Solution). I know you look to apply your reputation carefully and where it will effect change. None of us has the weight to get Amazon or EBay to listen. I think you do. Guy (help!) 22:36, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
- @JzG: That first book costs $912.89. Who pays that? But pretty much anyone can sell anything on Amazon, provided you cough up the $39.99 a month + selling fees. I don't know how you even could moderate that effectively and where to draw the line. Books that deny climate change? Books that claim the earth is flat? Books that detail our reptilian overlords? Books that promote the ingestion of neurotoxins? While I agree it's all crap, I doubt Amazon could do much about it. And even if they did, that would only confirm the conspiracy theorists' belief that the government or big pharma doesn't want them to know. - Alexis Jazz 21:09, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Alexis Jazz, eBay has removed a very large number of fraudulent listings of chlorine dioxide that were clearly selling to the bleach cult, but they get added as fast as they are reported. Ditto the fraudulent HCG diet, primarily listings for homeopathic HCG (which, if the claims of either HCG hucksters or homeopaths were anything other than complete bollocks, would actually make you fatter). Kevin Trudeau is in jail because of his fraudulent books, but Amazon still sells them and as far as I can tell he gets the money. There is obviously a line somewhere, but legally proven fraud is not over it and neither is shoving industrial bleach up your child's asshole, it seems. Guy (help!) 13:22, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Purpose of the 'Founder' group?
I just stumbled upon Wikipedia:User access levels#Founder, a user group I wasn't aware of before now which has exactly one member.
It makes sense to me that the founder would have access to basically whatever the founder wants access to. But looking at the rights that the group grants, I wonder why you're not a (local) steward instead. Or alternatively: why the local "stewards" group exists, considering it has 0 members. Founder grants userrights
and oathauth-enable
, steward grants userrights
and noratelimit
. oathauth-enable
and noratelimit
are also included in the administrator group, so founder/steward only adds userrights
. Am I missing something? - Alexis Jazz 20:26, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Alexis Jazz: He was a steward until 2009 --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 21:56, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
- Ask at WP:VPT if you're really interested. I think it's got something to do with the worst-case scenario whereby someone might block everyone possibly using a software vulnerability, and then there would be no fast recovery mechanism. I think founder has some advantage in that situation but if you want more than guesses I would try VPT. At any rate, the technical merits aside, it's now a social question and there simply is no reason to change long-standing procedure. Johnuniq (talk) 00:18, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: I'm not saying it should be changed, though perhaps the local "stewards" group could be retired as it has no members anyway and Jimbo has his own group. I don't know about hearing more guesses at VPT. The 'Founder' group has 1 member, who better to ask? Your theory is interesting, but from a technical point of view it seems to make limited sense. If someone were to block everyone, would there really be much of a difference between waiting for Jimbo or waiting for someone with direct database access? (or more likely, a global steward if only enwiki is affected) Besides.. Jimbo probably couldn't do much. The attacker would have either somehow changed the rights each group holds (really hard) which absolutely nobody on-wiki could do anything about or the attacker is blocking accounts at a rate of thousands per second - no offense, but even Jimbo won't be able to unblock that fast. On m:Special:GlobalGroupPermissions/founder I see only one right that might help in such an event:
siteadmin
. (lock and unlock the database) But Founder doesn't have that. According to m:Special:GlobalGroupPermissions, no global group does. I'm not sure anyone does. - Alexis Jazz 06:06, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Johnuniq: I'm not saying it should be changed, though perhaps the local "stewards" group could be retired as it has no members anyway and Jimbo has his own group. I don't know about hearing more guesses at VPT. The 'Founder' group has 1 member, who better to ask? Your theory is interesting, but from a technical point of view it seems to make limited sense. If someone were to block everyone, would there really be much of a difference between waiting for Jimbo or waiting for someone with direct database access? (or more likely, a global steward if only enwiki is affected) Besides.. Jimbo probably couldn't do much. The attacker would have either somehow changed the rights each group holds (really hard) which absolutely nobody on-wiki could do anything about or the attacker is blocking accounts at a rate of thousands per second - no offense, but even Jimbo won't be able to unblock that fast. On m:Special:GlobalGroupPermissions/founder I see only one right that might help in such an event:
It is a traditional and largely honorary thing. The flag gives me the ability to look at anything such as oversighted revisions, deleted revisions, and so on, across the entire project (all languages), which has in the past sometimes been useful as I seek to advise people in various languages. It was created by Tim Starling (if I remember correctly) and not something that I asked for. It has been a long time since I reviewed the details of what rights it grants, but the intention is that it largely is about seeing, not about doing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:36, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think you're actually confusing the global 'founder' group and the local 'founder' group. The global group gives you the ability to look at oversighted revisions and the like. The local group gives you the abilities of a steward, but where stewards on Wikimedia are global, the local 'founder' group on English Wikipedia makes you, for all intents and purposes, a local steward. - Alexis Jazz 18:42, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
Important: Paywalls have multiplied at an accelerated rate
Jimmy - I brought this up on your UTP in 2017: User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 222#Increasing trend of paywalls and again in 2018: User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 226#Paywall creep. The NYTimes, WaPo, WSJ, and a growing number of other RS are now behind paywalls. They are also learning how to combat incognito browsers. The costs to subscribe to these sources is unaffordable for the average editor here. It creates a major problem in our most controversial topic areas, such as AP, CC, medicine, etc. If the goal is to force editors to abide by WP:RECENTISM, NOTNEWS, and NEWSORG then do nothing because few will be able to access RS. Surely there is something the WMF can do to help. I visited WP:TWL and added WSJ to the long list of requests which also includes NYTimes and WaPo. If editors cannot access quality news sources, how will that affect our future? Atsme Talk 📧 16:23, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme: On the other hand, someone has to pay the journalists. Ideally they wouldn't serve search engine spiders anything different than what they serve normal visitors. That would be in the interest of the search engines, because whenever a search engine returns a paywalled result you're probably unhappy. Perhaps news sites could serve the first few lines of the article (as they usually do) plus a list of the main raw facts from the article and make the visitor pay for the properly written out version. But as long as search engines allow websites to serve something completely different to regular visitors and search engine spiders, there is no incentive. - Alexis Jazz 17:16, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your input, Alexis. I understand overhead, but I also understand clickbait and how advertising works without forcing WP volunteers to pay when we are over here trying to build an encyclopedia for free. Our efforts in citing them is a positive not a negative for their bottom line; therefore, they should be a bit more sympathetic to the needs of our volunteers who may be tasked with having to subscribe to 10 or more RS. At $40 to $150/year, that equates into a lot of money for even 5 paid subscriptions. Atsme Talk 📧 17:24, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme: I've wondered about that too. In particular because there is a Dutch newspaper I used to cite often for Wiktionary. I don't understand what clickbait has to do with this. Anyway, if you really wanted to, I bet you could get several newspapers for next to nothing. On paper, a few days old. People typically throw that away. Difficult to search though, and where do you put all of it.. - Alexis Jazz 19:13, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- It has a lot to do with it - the more traffic they get to their site, the more revenue they can make - ads pay by the click - it's a numbers game. Regardless, TWL offers some free access but it's really time for the WMF to step up to the plate before we see a sharp decline in article creation and editing in the areas that drive most of the traffic to WP. When RS become scarce, things are going to get pretty western. Atsme Talk 📧 21:58, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Atsme, Are you suggesting WMF try to negotiate an institutional subscription for its editors, as say a major University might for its students? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:06, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'll bet that the people that make these decisions aren't working here for free like I am. I am retired and I need to watch my budget carefully to make ends meet and yet I need to buy subscriptions to do my work here. It's really not fair and I feel that it shows a lack of respect and appreciation for the hard-working editors here. Gandydancer (talk) 00:11, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Atsme, Are you suggesting WMF try to negotiate an institutional subscription for its editors, as say a major University might for its students? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:06, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- It has a lot to do with it - the more traffic they get to their site, the more revenue they can make - ads pay by the click - it's a numbers game. Regardless, TWL offers some free access but it's really time for the WMF to step up to the plate before we see a sharp decline in article creation and editing in the areas that drive most of the traffic to WP. When RS become scarce, things are going to get pretty western. Atsme Talk 📧 21:58, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme: I've wondered about that too. In particular because there is a Dutch newspaper I used to cite often for Wiktionary. I don't understand what clickbait has to do with this. Anyway, if you really wanted to, I bet you could get several newspapers for next to nothing. On paper, a few days old. People typically throw that away. Difficult to search though, and where do you put all of it.. - Alexis Jazz 19:13, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your input, Alexis. I understand overhead, but I also understand clickbait and how advertising works without forcing WP volunteers to pay when we are over here trying to build an encyclopedia for free. Our efforts in citing them is a positive not a negative for their bottom line; therefore, they should be a bit more sympathetic to the needs of our volunteers who may be tasked with having to subscribe to 10 or more RS. At $40 to $150/year, that equates into a lot of money for even 5 paid subscriptions. Atsme Talk 📧 17:24, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- Since both private mode and the New York Times and the Washington Post and The Wall Street journal were mentioned and all of these have free articles and none of these actually have enforced paywalls, I'm unconvinced there is a big issue. Rather than wasting time fooling around with private mode, just install "Bypass Paywalls" or some similar plugin and be done with it. Okay these occasionally break and you still sometimes have to close some please subscribe popups, but that's surely a minor issue. I guess for those who absolutely refuse to use a different browser and are currently using Chrome, you get the "developer mode" issue due to their refusal to allow it in the store, but ultimately I'm unconvinced this is a big deal for those who were willing to use private mode in the first place. Note I make no comment on the morality of using the plugin other than that I personally do not see see any good argument that using it to bypass free article limits vs using private mode with the explicit same intention, is sufficiently different to make one okay but the other not okay. (Using the plugin for other purposes e.g. paywalls without a free article limit like NZ Herald, I can see valid arguments. Although again, this assumes you aren't bypassing it via other means. If you are using "reader" mode and similar tricks to bypass such limited paywalls and think it's okay to do so, than the same issue comes into play i.e. using plugin to do so is morally similar enough that we should accept both as similarly morally right/wrong.) Nil Einne (talk) 04:46, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- It is not that easy, Nil. Mozilla has blocked the plugin, and the paywalls are already wise to incognito. NYTimes is the only one that allows 1x free access, but the steps we have to take to keep it free are annoying. I don't agree that editors should resort to unethical means of bypassing paywalls for the privilege of volunteering here, much less pay for a subscription to access sources while also contributing money to WMF and making other valuable contributions. Surely the WMF has the money to invest in its own future - or better yet, utilize a bit of salesmanship to convince the bean-counters at the respective sources that when WP cites them in an article, it drives potential new subscribers to their site. CaptainEek, my suggestion is more along the line of how WP:TWL operates now via its Library Card. I'm pinging Ocaasi and Samwalton9 for input. Good salesmanship when approaching mainstream sources to cooperate may be all we need to acquire xxx number of cards for free access, or better yet, get those sources to pay WMF a percentage for every new subscriber originating from WP. If none of the aforementioned works, WMF could offer each of the major mainstream sources a token annual access fee to allow free access to card-carrying WP editors, which actually provides those sources access to more subscribers they can utilize for polling and the like. Jimbo Wales, aren't some of the major news sources already contributors to WMF? Atsme Talk 📧 11:54, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme: I feel like Wikipedia's primary goal is not to bring the latest news. (Wikinews on the other hand..) Wikipedia primarily aims to create a reference work. Perhaps some news outlets would be more willing to consider giving some Wikipedians access to all articles that are at least x days old. Such access wouldn't quite compete with their regular offering. It might make it easier to convince them. - Alexis Jazz 13:18, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- I quite agree with Atsme, I think having more access to reliable sources would be excellent. Now, I admittedly already pay for subscriptions to several sources solely because I use them on Wikipedia, but I know that most folks don't have that kind of money. And money should not be a barrier to entry for the editing the free encyclopedia. Especially for sources like the NYTimes and WSJ, which are gold standards here on Wiki, and are often used to determine notability. I think the foundation spending money on these kinds of sources, even for a limited number of subscriptions or whatever deals could be worked out would be a very, very good use of funds. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:49, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek and JzG: Can you and others who have subscriptions set up a pool so other editors can ask you to look up or verify stuff? I thought such a thing already existed, but I can't remember where. - Alexis Jazz 09:44, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Alexis Jazz, no, that is illegal.
- True fact: if you Google the title of a paywalled article, you can often access the full text via the Google cache dropdown. Guy (help!) 13:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- @JzG: I can't imagine that being illegal. If I know you have a subscription to a print newspaper, and I call you to ask you if the newspaper reported on xyz or what the outcome of some local election is according to the newspaper, and you tell me.. why would that be illegal? Obviously you're not allowed to send me copies of the articles, but you can relay the facts. You might violate some ToS from the newspaper if you have a subscription (though that would be severely silly), but you're not going to jail. As for Google cache, I thought some sites disabled that through robots.txt? So don't count on that loophole working forever. - Alexis Jazz 14:31, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Alexis Jazz, sorry, I misread your comment as asking about pooling WaPo accounts. Guy (help!) 16:44, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- @JzG: I can't imagine that being illegal. If I know you have a subscription to a print newspaper, and I call you to ask you if the newspaper reported on xyz or what the outcome of some local election is according to the newspaper, and you tell me.. why would that be illegal? Obviously you're not allowed to send me copies of the articles, but you can relay the facts. You might violate some ToS from the newspaper if you have a subscription (though that would be severely silly), but you're not going to jail. As for Google cache, I thought some sites disabled that through robots.txt? So don't count on that loophole working forever. - Alexis Jazz 14:31, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- @CaptainEek and JzG: Can you and others who have subscriptions set up a pool so other editors can ask you to look up or verify stuff? I thought such a thing already existed, but I can't remember where. - Alexis Jazz 09:44, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- It is not that easy, Nil. Mozilla has blocked the plugin, and the paywalls are already wise to incognito. NYTimes is the only one that allows 1x free access, but the steps we have to take to keep it free are annoying. I don't agree that editors should resort to unethical means of bypassing paywalls for the privilege of volunteering here, much less pay for a subscription to access sources while also contributing money to WMF and making other valuable contributions. Surely the WMF has the money to invest in its own future - or better yet, utilize a bit of salesmanship to convince the bean-counters at the respective sources that when WP cites them in an article, it drives potential new subscribers to their site. CaptainEek, my suggestion is more along the line of how WP:TWL operates now via its Library Card. I'm pinging Ocaasi and Samwalton9 for input. Good salesmanship when approaching mainstream sources to cooperate may be all we need to acquire xxx number of cards for free access, or better yet, get those sources to pay WMF a percentage for every new subscriber originating from WP. If none of the aforementioned works, WMF could offer each of the major mainstream sources a token annual access fee to allow free access to card-carrying WP editors, which actually provides those sources access to more subscribers they can utilize for polling and the like. Jimbo Wales, aren't some of the major news sources already contributors to WMF? Atsme Talk 📧 11:54, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
I know it doesn't solve the problem, but can I just recommend The Guardian, which is free in its entirety for everybody. They do ask for contributions, but why shouldn't they. Bishonen | tålk 12:37, 3 May 2020 (UTC).
- Bishonen, Indeed. And I subscribe to the Washington Post and New York Times, primarily to facilitate fact-checking here. Also some publications like the Financial Times make some important stories free. In the end, someone has to pay the journalists, or you end up with somethihng like the Mail Online, where much of the content is supplied pre-written by PR firms. Guy (help!) 15:24, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, even if one does not use WashPo and NYT for edits one still needs them for fact checking. And I do a lot of that. Re The Guardian, I do send them small amounts from time to time because I am so grateful that they have not gone the "pay to read" route. Gandydancer (talk) 00:16, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- The fact the Guardian manages very well without paywalls proves, imo, that the paywall crowd are not necessary nor even the better sources. Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:35, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow, I don't think anybody is arguing that any specific model is inherently superior. Different outlets will decide what to do based on their own individual circumstances. Ironically, fundamentalist libertarians have enormous amounts of money from think tanks funded through dark money, so they publish mountains of content with no paywall at all - this is a major outlet for far right economic theories and climate change denial, for example. Guy (help!) 13:12, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Guy, so they use the lack of paywalls as a lure? Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:45, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow, you'd have to ask them why they do it. But yes. Guy (help!) 09:45, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
- Guy, so they use the lack of paywalls as a lure? Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:45, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow, I don't think anybody is arguing that any specific model is inherently superior. Different outlets will decide what to do based on their own individual circumstances. Ironically, fundamentalist libertarians have enormous amounts of money from think tanks funded through dark money, so they publish mountains of content with no paywall at all - this is a major outlet for far right economic theories and climate change denial, for example. Guy (help!) 13:12, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
And then there is the issue that not all information is yet online: one must consult printed books to get one's facts correct from time to time. While public libraries do help meet this need, I for one find that I need to consult some specialized monographs that are either out of print (& thus expensive), or were expensive to begin with. (Why does Brill consistently price their titles at least twice or three times what I would be willing to pay for them? Last time I considered buying one of their books new, it retailed at $160.--, when US$1 was roughly equal to 1 Euro.) It would be helpful if the Foundation either had a grant program for buying books -- or even a purchase program with Amazon where qualified Wikipedians could buy books at a discount -- but when it comes to obtaining access for information, the Foundation seems to have entirely missed the message. -- llywrch (talk) 05:34, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Llywrch, FUTON bias is definitely a thing. Guy (help!) 13:13, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
I think I suggested this the last time Atsme brought this up, but since WMF has some money, they could start a pilot-project on giving editors who apply and fulfill some criteria one-year subscriptions to WaPo, NYT, Haaretz, The Times and/or whatever. If they tell WaPo "Hey, we'd like 10 000 subscriptions!" they may be able to negotiate a discount. Current asking price is $29 for the first year. One can of course always ask at WP:WRE. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Ah, and in the 2017 discussion JW stated "First, I think it's a really interesting idea to think about how the WMF might negotiate for bulk discounts for access for individual Wikipedians to the archives of newspapers (to be paid for by the WMF)" Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:02, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Gråbergs Gråa Sång, there are mechanisms already in place for access to paywalled content - I have JSTOR, for example, through WMF. Guy (help!) 13:15, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- JSTOR I knew about. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- Guy, why are you against this proposal? It's a net positive, and will be a vast improvement toward encouraging the use of quality sources, not to mention a vast improvement on our time here. It will save you money in subscription fees that you could donate to WMF instead. All these suggested workarounds are a pita, and can be extremely time-consuming for those of us working NPP/AfC or reviewing FACs or verifying that material in controversial articles align with the sources, etc. I try not to stick [citation needed] tags on articles - I go hunt down the RS and fix the issues. WMF can afford to do this, and it should be done because the paywalls are only going to get worse which will have a negative effect on the pedia. WP editors aren't the only ones trying to cheat the paywalls so you can expect them to tighten up. Why wait until the fit hits the shan? Jimbo, what more can I do to help further this proposal? Atsme Talk 📧 15:45, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- JSTOR I knew about. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Guy...I provided links when I first posted but since this is a worthy endeavor, I'll add a few more links and cut to the chase by providing Jimbo's responses here and here at User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 226#Paywall creep. I hold in high regard much of the information he provides, and there are times when that information may not seem like a lot, at least not until his words are fully digested, but along that same line, there are times when digesting his words have the same effect as eating a spicy burrito.
Jimbo said: If this is a good idea (and I generally think it is, although I can think of some reservations) then I can imagine a really neat technical solution. Much like 'Facebook connect', a 'Wikipedia connect' could allow anyone with a Wikipedia account to login to any resource that allows it. Just as "Facebook connect" is very easy for websites to implement, so could be "Wikipedia connect". In order for this to not simply become a popular way for people to evade paywalls (which would obviously make it highly undesirable for the publishers), the api could also hand back an edit count, so that publishers could use the mechanism to say "If you are a legitimate Wikipedian with 250 or more edits, then you can have free access". I made the number 250 up out of thin air as being a number that seems high enough to prevent annoying people from bothering to pop by to make a handful of relatively useless edits, but low enough that all serious Wikipedians would get it.
Reservations that come to mind: there is an argument that as a service to our readers, we should prefer sources, other things being equal, that are freely licensed, and if not freely licensed, at least free to read. A free pass for Wikipedians makes it easier for us to link to closed sources. There is a counter-argument that such an approach feeds right into a lot of the advertising-only business model problems of encouraging clickbait business models rather than reader-supported business models. I'm not taking a stand on that, but rather noting that our impact on the ecosystem of the web is substantial. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimbo Wales (talk • contribs) 6:32 am, 25 January 2018, Thursday (2 years, 3 months, 15 days ago) (UTC−4) (reply)
And his final response: I agree with this, for the most part, but I also think that offering payment is probably unnecessary. The mere argument "if you do this, you will get more links from Wikipedia" is probably incentive enough.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 6:33 am, 25 January 2018, Thursday (2 years, 3 months, 15 days ago) (UTC−4)
As you can see after reviewing prior discussions and Jimbo's response, proposals have already been put forward, and now they just need to be acted upon. The paywalls are increasing, and the areas suffering most from paywall syndrome are WP:NPP, WP:AFC and WP:AFD, all of which are crucial to maintaining the growth and quality of the encyclopedia. Volunteers need tools to work with, and if Jimbo wants to hire me to help get the job done, I'm available. Atsme Talk 📧 12:50, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
- The premise that quality news sources have paywalls which information/knowledge seekers or compilers need to deal with is not a premise I accept. Quality information/knowledge is free and always has been. Over rated and trite (non-quality) information/knowledge has to be sold in order to create a perceived value where there is none. It's similar to the love of money being the root of evil whereas money itself is not. It's also similar to paying for sex instead of having sex without payment. The most valuable thing about the internet is its free access to information/knowledge, although, just as with sex, there will always be pimps and other marketing types who trick people into monetizing something that should be free as a bird. Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:15, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with loving money, it's when you commit crimes and hurt others to acquire it that makes it bad - and that typically happens because of greed, not money. To say otherwise is like telling someone to go to hell and then blaming your keyboard for being rude. And please, your sex analogy is not a good one. Let's keep things on topic - editors should not have to pay $1/day +/- per publication to subscribe to quality sources in order to improve or verify information in our articles. There are RS available to us now....at least until they figure out subscriptions not only help pay the bills, they provide assurances to advertisers, but I'm not here to teach marketing. There are some quality sources that are still free to us now but for how much longer? If WMF doesn't want to get behind this, then be prepared for unexpected consequences, and next year we'll see how it pans out. BTW - there is no such thing as a free lunch. Atsme Talk 📧 00:55, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- "For the love of money is the root of all of evil." Well, money's just a tool, I suppose. Loving a shovel could easily result in some evil, digging up a garden in the Spring OTOH, shouldn't cause any problems. Smallbones(smalltalk) 03:28, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme:, I have an issue with calling any publication that promoted the "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction" bullshit "quality"; those 2 things are mutually exclusive, imo.
- Re: loving money, even disregarding any spiritual aspect, i.e. aspects relating to human spirits/souls, ironically loving money is kinda like loving the shovel Smallbones references, which would be odd to say the least. It's probably just semantics, I'm using "love" in an emotional sense and perhaps there are other ways, like I "love" vanilla ice cream.....but still, I doubt money is of any more, likely less, non-trade use than a shovel or a wheel. It's like an IOU on a piece of paper. Useful but not, in a natural way, loveable, imo.
- In essence I'm saying that, sure, the "love of money" is a real thing, but only because of brainwashing, i.e. marketing, i.e. value created out of thin air. Cabbage patch dolls, cigarettes spring to mind. Nocturnalnow (talk) 17:52, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with loving money, it's when you commit crimes and hurt others to acquire it that makes it bad - and that typically happens because of greed, not money. To say otherwise is like telling someone to go to hell and then blaming your keyboard for being rude. And please, your sex analogy is not a good one. Let's keep things on topic - editors should not have to pay $1/day +/- per publication to subscribe to quality sources in order to improve or verify information in our articles. There are RS available to us now....at least until they figure out subscriptions not only help pay the bills, they provide assurances to advertisers, but I'm not here to teach marketing. There are some quality sources that are still free to us now but for how much longer? If WMF doesn't want to get behind this, then be prepared for unexpected consequences, and next year we'll see how it pans out. BTW - there is no such thing as a free lunch. Atsme Talk 📧 00:55, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Hi all - I'm the Product Manager for The Wikipedia Library at the WMF and I just wanted to share some thoughts on this as it relates to our program. We have partnerships with more than 60 organisations, who now provide the community with free access to their resources without us having to pay them anything (please sign up!).
- The library doesn't contain everything, and there are a number of sources listed above that we haven't been able to get access to yet. While we've been focusing on some technical improvements over the past couple of years we haven't spent as much energy on new partner outreach. That's something we're going to scale back up in the coming fiscal year with more support from the WMF Partnerships team.
- In terms of the financials, the library's holdings would cost many millions of dollars per year to maintain if we were subscribing directly. Publisher subscription fees are becoming prohibitive even for well-funded libraries and universities, and the library would quickly become one of the most expensive programs at the WMF if we instead paid directly for everything. Not to mention that we'd have all the same staffing costs anyway!
- In short, I don't see a need for the WMF to subscribe to these sources because our arguments for entering a free-access arrangement seem to be working well - we just need to continue scaling up that effort so that we can fill in our gaps, both in terms of missing the big publishers and newspapers, but also in terms of diversifying our content to include more global sources. As always, if you have requests for new partnerships please leave them here or at the requests page. These directly inform our prioritisation. Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 10:16, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you so much. Outstanding! Nocturnalnow (talk) 17:26, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Samwalton9 (WMF): word of warning: if you go to that page to request new partnerships, make sure you are logged in first or your input will be lost. Also, realize that that page is not a wiki. I just added a suggestion for NRC Handelsblad, but I can't edit it anymore it seems. I avoid NRC nowadays so I don't waste the few free articles one can read, even though it's a great source. (the free article counter resets every month or so I think) Because I avoid them to avoid tripping the free article limit, I can't verify this is still the limit today. I added a note about that, but that seems out of place in hindsight. But I can't edit it. - Alexis Jazz 18:23, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the heads up, I seem to recall that form previously saved your data when logging in. I've filed T251991. Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 09:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Samwalton9 (WMF), so do I understand you correctly, you have looked into helping Wikipedia editors to assess certain news sites such as NYT and WashPo but have decided it would be too expensive? Gandydancer (talk) 19:30, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gandydancer: That's mostly true, yes. We've decided that continuing to work on encouraging them to provide access for free is the better bet. While it may take longer to get there, the costs would quickly add up if we started subscribing to these publications. We've shown that these organisations can be convinced to enter a partnership with us, we just have to find the right people to speak to and make the right arguments. Oh and by the way, we're making ProQuest available soon, which will contain historical NYT articles (up to, I think, 2015). Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 08:47, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Samwalton9 (WMF), so do I understand you correctly, you have looked into helping Wikipedia editors to assess certain news sites such as NYT and WashPo but have decided it would be too expensive? Gandydancer (talk) 19:30, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the heads up, I seem to recall that form previously saved your data when logging in. I've filed T251991. Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 09:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm trying to assume good faith but it is difficult. It seems to me that you said you were working on it when Atsme brought this up quite some time ago. If you have been waiting all this time to find the right people to speak to and also have not yet been able to come up with the right arguments I have to wonder how competent you are. It is not my intention to speak harshly, but I do have to wonder. Have you tried to work with the NYT and WashPo on a sort of deal wherein you would pay a reduced group price that would be offered to only trusted editors that have made a specified number of edits and have been WP members for a specified amount of time? If not this, have you made any other suggestions to these two top news outlets? Gandydancer (talk) 14:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- " Do. Or do not. There is no try." Assuming good faith and trying to assume good faith is classic Doublethink.
- I'm trying to assume good faith but it is difficult. It seems to me that you said you were working on it when Atsme brought this up quite some time ago. If you have been waiting all this time to find the right people to speak to and also have not yet been able to come up with the right arguments I have to wonder how competent you are. It is not my intention to speak harshly, but I do have to wonder. Have you tried to work with the NYT and WashPo on a sort of deal wherein you would pay a reduced group price that would be offered to only trusted editors that have made a specified number of edits and have been WP members for a specified amount of time? If not this, have you made any other suggestions to these two top news outlets? Gandydancer (talk) 14:38, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- Samwalton9 (WMF), it's wonderful that you joined this discussion and brought such usefull and welcome information. Your reasoning is both practical and profound and I believe most of our donors support your approach to how their dollars are being spent. I agree that any media worth being considered a RS will agree to provide access for free to the library. Nocturnalnow (talk) 20:29, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow when you say that Wikipedia's "reasoning is both practical and profound" and you agree with them when they say "any media worth being considered a RS will agree to provide access for free to the library" I think that it's fair for me to question your logic and your position while I don't for a moment question that you are speaking in good faith. But I do think it's fair for me to question both the logic and the sincerity of those statements when they are made by a Wikipedia paid employee. When months and years go by and the staff rep says they are still waiting for the "right argument" and the "right people", how can I believe they are even working on the problem? I think that it would have been fair to have this discussion with the foundation rep but I see they they are no longer responding to me, I suppose because I questioned their comments. Staff should always stay open to criticism, and though now retired, at least that's the way it was in my long working career. Nocturnalnow, please look for example at the Bernie Sanders article where we list 439 references. At least 60 of them use pay-walled sources. I am a major editor of that and several similar articles. As you know, we are especially concerned that we get our facts right when it comes to BLPs. How can I fact check them without paying what would, for me, amount to a substantial amount of money? How can we continue to call Wikipedia open to anyone to edit when seasoned, trusted, and productive editors like me need to be able to "afford" to edit here? Gandydancer (talk) 16:21, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- Samwalton9 (WMF), it's wonderful that you joined this discussion and brought such usefull and welcome information. Your reasoning is both practical and profound and I believe most of our donors support your approach to how their dollars are being spent. I agree that any media worth being considered a RS will agree to provide access for free to the library. Nocturnalnow (talk) 20:29, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
I was recently working on creating some new articles for Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red and found one just-barely-notable person was the subject of a significant articles in the LA Times. Paywalled, and I ended up paying for a subscription, but I live on the east coast, and have no particular interest in reading the LA Times on a regular basis, except that it may occasionally be a good source for an article. I suggest I am a good example of someone who ought to have a discounted subscription, not for free, but for some modest amount.
I am strongly supportive of an initiative to get WMF muscle behind a discount model for a large list of paywalled sources.
The benefits to the sources are enormous. Yes, they want eyeballs, or at least the ability to demonstrate to their advertisers that they have paid subscribers, but editors provide so much more. We are including links in one of the most trafficked sites on the interest, far more trafficked than any of the individual sources, so our very actions are going to encourage more people to want to subscribe. My guess is that this is very crudely the argument that @Samwalton9 (WMF): would use to push for free access, but unless that initiative is close to fruition, I’m unclear why the sources would be more apt to do a free subscription than one in which they get some revenue. I think (but am not sure) that when they report subscribers to advertisers, paid are worth more than free.
I’m thinking though a mechanism where the WMF kicks in some money, and editors get to sign up for access to all these sources for a modest amount, which scales down to zero depending on how many edits or references created in one year. Prolific editors could get access for free, more modest users of such sources (myself) would pay some modest amount, and others who create almost no content would also be able to sign up, but for a higher amount. The devil is in the details, but I think a plan could be created that generates thousands of subscriptions for these sites, and revenue that is meaningful to the sources.S Philbrick(Talk) 18:46, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, the top four: LA Times, NYT, WashPo, and The Wall Street Journal - all pay-walls. Why does the Foundation just brush this off and say Oh, we're working on it (but don't hold your breath)? Gandydancer (talk) 19:17, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
- Gandydancer, because it's not the Foundation's problem. It's a problem for us, as Wikipedians, but it's no more their problem than the fact that most books and scientific papers are not freely downloadable. Guy (help!) 09:43, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Gandydancer: Apologies for not getting back to you sooner - there's a lot going on right now so it's not always possible for me to respond quickly. To reiterate my comment above, we deprioritised pursuing new partnerships over the past year or two while we focused on making technical improvements to our access workflows. We're a small team (now growing, I'm happy to say), and it just wasn't feasible for us to do both at full capacity. That said, we are soon launching access to Springer Nature, ProQuest, and 4 other publishers that we've been able to obtain partnerships with recently. Also as above, we're renewing our efforts this year to get access to these high demand resources, so hopefully you'll be seeing progress before long. Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 10:52, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- When you say you are working "to get access to these high demand resources" do you mean the top four news outlets that I mentioned? If that is correct, is there any reason that you could not regularly share your progress with the editors? In my experience it improves morale when management shares that sort of information with those who are out in the field doing the work. Especially in this case where the workers are not getting the proper tools they need to put out the best product possible. Remember that editors take pride in helping to put together and keep up this project. Note that a while back Atsme asked "What more can I do to help?". That really touched me and I hope that it had the same effect on you and others in management. Gandydancer (talk) 16:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- That's a great idea and I'll have a think about how we might make that process more open so folks can follow our progress. Perhaps a Phabricator board could work? Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 18:05, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Atsme and Gandydancer: Just a quick update that this morning I pulled together the start of a partnerships Phabricator board for the project, which you can now find at The-Wikipedia-Library-Partnerships. I haven't got to importing everything yet, but I think I've covered most of the high priority or actively under discussion publishers. Also of interest, while I was pulling this together, is that I discovered our impending ProQuest partnership contains the US Newsstream collection via ProQuest Central, in which it looks like you'll be able to find The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, and more current newspapers! Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 12:13, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- When you say you are working "to get access to these high demand resources" do you mean the top four news outlets that I mentioned? If that is correct, is there any reason that you could not regularly share your progress with the editors? In my experience it improves morale when management shares that sort of information with those who are out in the field doing the work. Especially in this case where the workers are not getting the proper tools they need to put out the best product possible. Remember that editors take pride in helping to put together and keep up this project. Note that a while back Atsme asked "What more can I do to help?". That really touched me and I hope that it had the same effect on you and others in management. Gandydancer (talk) 16:18, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
now I'D pay for this
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2020/may/06/trump-live-and-let-die-video
Talk about guerilla marketing; somebody deserves one of those advertising prizes. Nocturnalnow (talk) 14:05, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
requesting your comment on unref'd material
Please see - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Republic_of_Serbian_Krajina#requesting_Administrator_help
Thank you. 50.111.24.147 (talk) 17:48, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- No admin or Jimbo help needed, IP getting reverted for removing material in an unconstructive manner. I've left them a note. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 22:12, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
- And your reasoning is rejected utterly, Captain - if you are a seasoned editor, you should know better. We need Administrator action or preferably a statement by you, James - as you've posted on many TP's before about unreferenced material. Thanks. HammerFilmFan 50.111.36.101 (talk) 23:58, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
- While Wikipedia:Verifiability indicates that unreferenced article content should be removed, it does not precisely define the timing and appropriate steps for removal in all instance. This essay provides additional guidance on whether, when, and how to delete material that lacks a cited source. - we typcially wait a couple of days - this was flagged FIVE YEARS AGO and no one has taken a single step. Captain, maybe you should be downgraded to Ensign? Verifiability is POLICY. 50.111.36.101 (talk) 00:04, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstand how day-to-day editing works. We get a lot of people who add unreferenced stuff, and we try to prevent that. But we also have lots of unreferenced stuff from the early days of Wikipedia, back before we required sourcing. Much of it is demonstrably true, and sources do exist. Its just that the sources weren't added inline. If the material is likely suspect, yes we do remove it. But if it seems likely to be true, and could be supported by a reliable source, there is no reason to undo the work that went into it. Now, should a source be found at the earliest convenience? Yes. But that requires editors, like you or I, to find said sources. So again, I suggest that instead of trying to tear an article down, why not help build it up and find a reliable source? You seem to care about the subject, I imagine you might find it quite interesting to research the subject. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 00:31, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- I've been editing since 2005. I was an Admin when I was living in Australia 8 years ago. Apparently YOU do not understand. POLICY is unref'd material may be challenged and removed IMMEDIATELY. No ifs/ands/buts. Period. The responsibility of the editor(s) who added the material is that they find the sources. This is not my SME area - and I don't have access to that material.50.111.36.101 (talk) 19:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- May be, yes, it's not always a good idea. Per WP:PRESERVE there are ifs/ands/buts. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:20, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- If you've been editing since 2005, and were an admin, then why aren't you logged in? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 20:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- There are MANY reasons for a reg. user not be logged in (and that acct was retired/disappeared when I relocated) - come on!!! As for WP:PRESERVE - what does it state? - " Likewise, as long as any of the facts or ideas added to an article would belong in the "finished" article, they should be retained if they meet the three article content retention policies: Neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), Verifiability and No original research. " Unreferenced material is not verifiable. Look - this section was tagged Five (5) years ago - editors involved should have addressed this issue a long time ago. 104.169.17.116 (talk) 13:03, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
Blacklists
The National Cyber Security Centre has announced that it will no longer use the terms blacklist and whitelist. We have also had complaints via OTRS that presence on a "spam blacklist" is pejorative. I have seen cases where a site owner accepts the fact of us enforcing no links to their site, but is very concerned about being on a "spam blacklist" when they themselves may have done nothing wrong (assuming good faith: it's also common for site owners to bitch and moan when their SEO operators cause blacklisting).
I have opened a discussion at m:Talk:Spam blacklist about renaming the feature to something like "external link deny list" to remove the black/white terminology and reflect the fact that not only are site operators not always to blame for the spamming, but that (e.g.) URL shorteners are blacklisted preemptively and may not be spam. Guy (help!) 13:59, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm fine with this but I also wish we had multiple lists, or the ability to comment more easily, so that the list could have more nuance. For example, "\bgoatse\.info\b" is not allowed a link for a very different reason than what most people think of as "spam". I don't know the history on "\bbible\-history\.com\b" but given that it looks like a fairly innocuous (but probably not WP:RS) site I wonder if someone was being a jerk and going around actually 'spamming' by adding too links over and over.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:26, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
- Accident blackspot has also set off this criticism, but it survives (at the moment).--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 06:49, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- Jimbo Wales, there's no reason we could not include a reason code. But we really should rename the list to just "link" rather than "spam" to avoid exactly this kind of question. Guy (help!) 07:57, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
- In the next round of the Political Correctness Virtue Signalling Derby, black holes will be renamed massive galactic light-deprived areas. ::picard:: Carrite (talk) 15:20, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Save the white privilege rhino! Or don't. Elizium23 (talk) 09:52, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Free magazine
Hello Jimbo (I feel I should say Dear Mr Wales!) With a bit more spare time these days, I decided to launch a new free magazine. It offers photography tips, but its prime objective is to encourage more photographers worldwide to contribute to Wikipedia and Commons. The link is on my home page User:Charlesjsharp. I hope some of the captions match your sense of humour! Best wishes, Charlesjsharp (talk) 14:06, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
- That looks really nice! Like everyone, I'm stuck at home with my family but this has the positive side effect that my children and I have been more interested in the plants and animals around us - including taking pictures and using Google Lens to identify things. I'm going to print out your magazine and look at it with my daughters. Thank you! direct link to pdf for the convenience of others reading this--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:30, 5 May 2020 (UTC)
Censorship
Jimbo, encouraging you to have a look at Talk:COVID-19_pandemic#RfC_on_censorship_section which covers censorship of censorship, an interesting broad topic in itself. As the media and governments seemingly seek to censor more these days (broadly construed beyond the pandemic) where does wikipedia stand in this debate? Shall urgency trump, or shall wikipedia principles trump? Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:13, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
- Fun fact: 95.3% of discussions about censorship involve a total misunderstanding of the topic. Johnuniq (talk) 09:16, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
- I am against censorship. I am in favor of editorial judgment. And I am in favor of recognizing the difference between the two. I haven't read the linked discussion but that's usually what I end up saying on these matters--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:47, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
notice
It's happening to me now.
I am a longterm highly productive editor, being wiped out. The quick read of what's going on at wp:ANI won't make it clear, but in bigger context, I am being humiliated and destroyed, in terms of my ever getting out of the hole I am in.
It's all about bullying, that's my interpretation now and always.
- I should have run for, gotten admin bit back in 2008 or so, which might have protected me. A lot that followed was enabled by others being admins and me not having that.
- Fellow editor in conflict with me got it instead, and pursued harrassing.
- I was here at User talk:Jimbo Wales once back in 2011 or 2012 or so, when beleaguered; I appreciated response here, but that harrassment continued.
- I was served poorly in 2012 arbitration case against me.
- I never explained to anyone what that permanently ruined, the types of contributions I would have been able to make, with others in and out of Wikipedia. I didn't want to give satisfaction to others for that.
- I got back up eventually.
- I hoped to go to RFA sometime, but got dragged down, blocked in conflict with a difficult (not just my opinion) editor.
- Got into contention later with another difficult editor, got blocked.
- Been dragged to ANI a few times.
- Recently, I found my way to developing out a topic area that superficially seems problematic, but is solid.
- Just now, basically, another difficult editor (this time User:Fram) confronted me, and in my experience has been cold and deeply incivil, and they opened ANI, and I am going down.
It seems crazy to me how Wikipedia eco-system works. Including giving over tremendous power to tremendously destructive actors, bending backwards to hold to other ideals (e.g. that anyone should be able to open ANIs, to pursue harrassment campaigns just below radar, that no one should be above being dragged down). Including ideals that i really like, but there have to be limits. Crazy to crush high number of incoming parties, by dropping default acceptance of high school articles. Amazingly crazy that historic places topic area, which should be free from controversy, and is very natural intro point for many, potentially, has in fact been horrible. There is no general understanding, say, of paradox of tolerance. I was encouraged briefly by WMF seeming to take action on Fram case. But very little is different in 2020 vs. 2012.
I have been thinking, trying, for long time to see how, and to do some part in addressing bullying. I found my way to deciding that writing an essay or two might be helpful, not too confrontational. Writing wp:TNTTNT, and associated discussion, has seemed to help in decreasing bullying going on in AFD arena. I found out recently that a separate action, taking out a difficult editor in that area, at about the same time, was likely of equivalent importance. I have been building a theory of how Wikipedia community could proceed, through systematic naming and then reducing of bullying-type stuff that goes on in each of many arenas for bullying (AFD, CFD, ANI, 3RR, and especially new editor entry points: new page patrol, two-item dabs, high school articles). And in complementary fashion, defining what constitutes bullying-harrassment. With essays towards emerging guidelines. With very gradual ratcheting up of definitions of unacceptable behavior. Broad and gradual enough to subsume simpler one-factor-at-a-time programs that would not work.
For me, I would prefer to do content, but see that being a good citizen requires more. I have long enjoyed being able to create content, as an escape partly. I haven't minded being drawn away to deal with emergencies sometimes. I have long enjoyed reaching out to new editors, or editors new to my areas, and supporting them. I have enjoyed many big collaborative projects. If I am humiliated as seems to be happening now, and blocked from proceeding with content unreasonably, as seems to be happening now, then I predict for myself that I cannot much enjoy just participating in non-content, and I will fade away or quit completely.
This is depressing, crushing, awful for me. I think it is a loss for Wikipedia, actually what I think I can contribute in anti-bullying, as well as in productive collaboration in content being stopped.
Here, I am not asking for intervention by Jimbo Wales. I don't see how any intervention now is possible by anyone. I just recall this was one safe haven, where once previously I could express what was going on, and not be jeered and dismissed. And as I thought about options last night, like if there was any way i could seek a coalition of help, or I didn't see any. --Doncram (talk) 17:43, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Doncram: summaries are not your strong suit, are they? (hint, hint) And now I wonder if there is some connection between this and WP:FRAMBAN. I didn't keep up with that soap. I think in the last episode they invoked StatusQuoIsGod. But in general, without siding with or against you, I feel you. Sometimes it can feel as if the world is against you. Maybe you're just imagining it, or maybe it really is. But it sucks either way. - Alexis Jazz 22:38, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
- The implication given here that Doncram's current problems stem in some way from "bullying" is totally absurd, a complete red herring. The problem is his editing behavior, his failure to believe that basic policies apply to him, and his unwillingness to admit mistakes and fix them when they are pointed out to him. The complaint against him is perfectly reasonable, as the evidence in the AN/I report shows, and the sanctions proposed are justified - at least in the view of the majority of editors responding. Instead of shouldering the burden of fixing the problem he created, he's dug his feet into the ground and cried "bully!"Doncram's current behavior is almost precisely the same as that which provoked [an arbitration case] which resulted in Doncram being prevented from creating new articles for 3 years and 8 months, so he can hardly claim ignorance of what he did wrong in the past as an excuse for what he's doing wrong now. He seems to feel that if he throws walls of text at the problem, it will go away, but that seems unlikely. He should engage with his critics and pledge to fix the problems they've reported, not attempt another end-run around the problem with his "bullying" complaint. (His first end-run was an attempt to quash the AN/I report with a post on AN that asked for "summary judgment" and sanctions against Fram for filing the AN/I report.Doncram has had several opportunities to head off sanctions with positive responses, but has refused to do so. The comment he posted here is simply another attempt to deflect the criticism of his behavior without ever dealing with it. In my view, many other editors would already have been indef blocked if they behaved as he has, it's only Doncram's long service time and the volume of articles he's created (many of them sub-stubs) that has kept him from that fate, but eventually, if he doesn't change his ways, I think it will catch up with him. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
- Doncram, you created a whole bunch of articles based on a trade directory and companies' own websites. Amazingly, you got pushback, just like you did when it happened before. Rather than simply banning you, we're looking at a minimal restriction that curbs your obvious enthusiasm without creating huge numbers of directory entries. Are you planning on learning from this at some point? Guy (help!) 09:39, 10 May 2020 (UTC)
- Doncram, I can totally relate to where you are coming from. I was recently caught up in a bit of a contentious dispute. however, I reached out to two of the main initiators, and two of them ended up being highly helpful, supportive, and became my go-to guys when I wanted to implement some ideas for posting information on new editing events and activities here. and let me also add, when another editor recently raised some issues, I was able to reach out to them, and reach a new positive accord. it did require some highly stressful and intense communications, before I could get to that point. but fortunately, in the end, the community helped me, was cooperative, and I was able to move on, and get back to editing the areas that most drew my interest.
- with that said, I totally hear you and get where you're coming from, when it comes to the emotional stress and strain. guys, we all need to hear Doncram when they speak about this. it is vitally important to hear someone out, whenever someone approaches us sincerely like this, with genuine emotional stress. especially here, at Jimbo's page. clearly, they genuinely would like some real help and input.
- Doncram, I can offer the following suggestions, if this helps.
- 1) arrange to get yourself a mentor. I have one now, and they have been extremely helpful. If they are available, you are welcome to contact my own current mentor, and see whether they are available or not. I would suggest you review the list off available adopters beforehand, in case another adopter might perhaps be more suitable. however, again, you are welcome to contact me on my talk page, if you wish to find out who is my current mentor. I don't know if they are fully available now or not, though.
- 2) contact the editors who initiated whatever proceeding you are now part of. inform them how you are willing to change or amend your behavior for the future, going forward. also, let them know that you can take a hiatus of some duration, from whatever area was causing the problems. that would most likely allow everyone to take a step back and to get some valuable breathing space.
- 3) most importantly, just take on a different activity for the next few weeks. it doesn't have to be anything especially important. some people will tell you to "just get back to content editing." that is fine, if that is indeed what you want to do. however, if you do not, there are plenty of other activities here that you can choose to focus upon. if you want, you can do somethjing as simple as welcoming new editors. or answer questions at any forum that you might choose. but regardless of what you choose, I highly HIGHLY recommend that you choose a new area of activity. taking a break from Wikipedia completely is almost never a worthwhile option; the better route is to to pick of different activities, regardless of their level of importance, and take that on as a new pursuit.
- Well, I hope my ideas above are of some help. I am going to continue to watch this discussion, so I will see any further replies that are posted here. Also, you are welcome to send any messages to my talk page. I look forward to seeing this discussion develop towards some positive resolution. thanks!! --Sm8900 (talk) 02:23, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
wikipediq.org
The WMF should purchase wikipediq.org and have it redirect to Wikipedia. Benjamin (talk) 08:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- The site is showing a placeholder page at the moment (screenshot) and it is for sale (for $688 to be exact).[1]. It could be seen as a form of cybersquatting because the name is quite similar to Wikipedia. However, the use of the word wiki + something else is now so commonplace that it might not achieve much of value. It is also worth pointing out that the letter q is above a on a QWERTY keyboard, so somebody may be hoping that mistyping will drive traffic to this site.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 09:17, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- See Typosquatting#WIPO_resolution_procedure. 24.151.50.175 (talk) 15:56, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sounds like making wealthy lawyers with no guarantee of winning. Mis-spellings of one letter in a domain name are very common; gogle.com redirects to google.com, so they must have purchased it in 1998 to prevent this from happening.[2] The question is whether Wikipedia should buy up all of the possible mis-typings to prevent this sort of thing.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:04, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- If the WMF had to hire outside counsel for the WIPO process, I would agree it might not be worthwhile. However, the WMF has IP counsel on staff who I imagine are more than capable of using the procedure rather than rewarding typosquatters and incentivizing further such activity against the WMF or other trademark holders. 24.151.50.175 (talk) 17:56, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sounds like making wealthy lawyers with no guarantee of winning. Mis-spellings of one letter in a domain name are very common; gogle.com redirects to google.com, so they must have purchased it in 1998 to prevent this from happening.[2] The question is whether Wikipedia should buy up all of the possible mis-typings to prevent this sort of thing.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 17:04, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- See Typosquatting#WIPO_resolution_procedure. 24.151.50.175 (talk) 15:56, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- The domain name alone borders on a trademark violation. It may be for sale for $688, but if I were the WMF I'd make them a better offer: $100 and the priceless promise not to sue them over it. - Alexis Jazz 17:47, 11 May 2020 (UTC)