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Jimmy, we who are very relieved that the Wikimedia Foundation is making cooperation with the Kazakh Wikipedia hope that you will use your great persuasion powers and extensive contacts with PR agencies and governmental leaders to help call for the finding and safe return of Tokbergen Abiyev, who has been missing now for [http://www.cpj.org/2012/12/journalist-press-club-founder-disappears-in-kazakh.php over a week]. He disappeared just after announcing a press conference to report on corruption in Kazakhstan. We know that the good people you are working with in Kazakhstan can help, if they will only apply loving and thoughtful pressure on their government to tolerate and respond to criticism, rather than censoring criticism and making people disappear. You achieved victory against SOPA. You achieved victory for Richard O'Dwyer. Please achieve victory for Mr. Abiyev! -- [[Special:Contributions/50.144.0.96|50.144.0.96]] ([[User talk:50.144.0.96|talk]]) 05:35, 28 December 2012 (UTC) |
Jimmy, we who are very relieved that the Wikimedia Foundation is making cooperation with the Kazakh Wikipedia hope that you will use your great persuasion powers and extensive contacts with PR agencies and governmental leaders to help call for the finding and safe return of Tokbergen Abiyev, who has been missing now for [http://www.cpj.org/2012/12/journalist-press-club-founder-disappears-in-kazakh.php over a week]. He disappeared just after announcing a press conference to report on corruption in Kazakhstan. We know that the good people you are working with in Kazakhstan can help, if they will only apply loving and thoughtful pressure on their government to tolerate and respond to criticism, rather than censoring criticism and making people disappear. You achieved victory against SOPA. You achieved victory for Richard O'Dwyer. Please achieve victory for Mr. Abiyev! -- [[Special:Contributions/50.144.0.96|50.144.0.96]] ([[User talk:50.144.0.96|talk]]) 05:35, 28 December 2012 (UTC) |
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:Thank you. I will look into this.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 10:43, 28 December 2012 (UTC) |
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== Pseudoscience and bad science on TEDx == |
== Pseudoscience and bad science on TEDx == |
Revision as of 10:43, 28 December 2012
(Manual archive list) |
Continued: civility and team spirit
Civility I asked some candidates for arbitrator the following question: how do you feel about applying the principles that we use for BLPs (Biographies of living persons) also to editors: "a high degree of sensitivity", "attributed to a reliable, published source", "written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy", "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered"?
Team spirit I like to see in the Main page's (frequently discredited) DYK section 1950s American automobile culture, the result of admirable teamwork begun here (where some may not exactly expect civility) ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
- Great collaboration from great editors. Something we should all look at and see the true sprit of Wikipedia.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:27, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
- Now archived, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
- I enjoy the collaboration on my proposal of a new infobox template for a rather complex topic, to be considered, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:19, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
- Now archived, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
I joined a project now that applies the principles summarised above, Editor Retention. I feel that we are losing the best. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
- I would like to encourage Jimbo and all editors who read this to join the Editor retention project! Well worth the effort and we can use the help there...as well as new volunteers at Wikipedia:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard!--Amadscientist (talk) 04:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- My personal efforts started when BarkingMoon (talk · contribs) left. I didn't get far, some people still don't believe that he even exists. I was more successful with Khazar2, Tim riley and Dr. Blofeld, some pillars of Wikipedia ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Discontinued: I thank Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs) for living (not speaking) civility, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- My personal efforts started when BarkingMoon (talk · contribs) left. I didn't get far, some people still don't believe that he even exists. I was more successful with Khazar2, Tim riley and Dr. Blofeld, some pillars of Wikipedia ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- I would like to encourage Jimbo and all editors who read this to join the Editor retention project! Well worth the effort and we can use the help there...as well as new volunteers at Wikipedia:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard!--Amadscientist (talk) 04:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
Since Wikipedia itself isn't a reliable source, applying BLP principles to editors would mean that we could no longer draw conclusions based on an editor's Wikipedia editing. Moreover, even if Wikipedia was considered a reliable source, it would still be WP:SYNTH to combine several edits by an editor and decide that the editor is being disruptive. We'd have to find a source stating that the editor is disruptive before we could state that ourselves.
Currently this is permissible because BLP states that "Although this policy applies to posts about Wikipedians in project space, some leeway is permitted to allow the handling of administrative issues by the community". Your proposal would end that. Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:36, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think I can follow. I don't talk about the so-called disruption. I talk about saying something about an editor without sources for it, without saying it's POV not facts, without regard to how it harms him, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- Using your suggestion we can't say anything about an editor. It's not just that we can't talk about his private life--we can't even talk about his on-Wikipedia activities, since Wikipedia isn't a reliable source (and even if it was, we wouldn't be permitted to draw conclusions about it). Ken Arromdee (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- I would be fine with not saying anything ABOUT an editor, but talk TO them. Look at Malleus Fatuorum: much has been said about him, I went and proposed an idea to him, he implemented a sample, asking the main author politely if it was acceptable, and then did the major change work, assisted by RexxS. I would like to see more in that spirit, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:10, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- I would be fine with not saying anything ABOUT an editor
- That would kill our ability to discuss a user's behavior. We couldn't even template a known sock-puppet by that rule. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 14:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- So? - Let's do content. - (why "kill"?) - less radical: we can discuss users, but should be careful and keep in mind that they are living persons who could be harmed, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- For example: BarkingMoon (mentioned above. I invite you to look at his contributions first, neatly arranged on his user page, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:36, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- Should there be some extra care regarding those of us who choose to use our real names? Clearly anything said about me has different real-world consequences than something said about a user posting under a pseudonym. Then again, I chose to reveal my name, so it could be argued that any consequences of that decision are my own doing. It works the other way as well; my actions here are more likely to result in real-world consequences than the actions of a pseudonym. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- I think the normal fair treatment out of respect for human beings is enough for you and me: no twisted words, no discrediting, no unsupported bias spread, - you name it, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:15, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
- Should there be some extra care regarding those of us who choose to use our real names? Clearly anything said about me has different real-world consequences than something said about a user posting under a pseudonym. Then again, I chose to reveal my name, so it could be argued that any consequences of that decision are my own doing. It works the other way as well; my actions here are more likely to result in real-world consequences than the actions of a pseudonym. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:12, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
- That would kill our ability to discuss a user's behavior. We couldn't even template a known sock-puppet by that rule. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 14:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
- Using your suggestion we can't say anything about an editor. It's not just that we can't talk about his private life--we can't even talk about his on-Wikipedia activities, since Wikipedia isn't a reliable source (and even if it was, we wouldn't be permitted to draw conclusions about it). Ken Arromdee (talk) 07:41, 21 December 2012 (UTC)
Peace music I liked to see in the Main page's (frequently discredited) DYK section Leningrad première of Shostakovich's Symphony No. 7, announced on my talk as Peace music, on the human spirit, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:18, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Peace --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:08, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Still Christmas in Germany: Did you know ... that Bach's cantata for the second day of Christmas, Darzu ist erschienen der Sohn Gottes ("For this the Son of God appeared"), BWV 40, is his first Christmas cantata composed for Leipzig? - Please join the discussion the new infobox for Bach compositions or cantatas mentioned above, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:55, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
Now there are two discussions about infoboxes on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music, one about Bach compositions, the other about the project's recommendation not to have infoboxes for people (composers, singers ...), both should be of general interest, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:20, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Free speech only goes so far
Jimbo, could you please respond to this article? Thank you. --BookCook (talk) 01:45, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- I have, in detail, elsewhere on this page. Let me summarize, though. I have taken a very strong stand in favor of freedom of speech and transparency in government. My work has taken me all over the world to meet with Wikipedians, NGOs working to build civil society, and government leaders. I am always consistent in my message. In China, as one example, I have had multiple meetings with the relevant minister, always urging more openness and emphasizing that the right to self-expression is a fundamental human right.
- I am planning a trip to Kazakhstan in 2013 (specifics not fixed yet) which I think will be similar to my trips to China to meet with government officials there. I will meet with local Wikipedians, I will meet with civil society groups, I will meet with the press, and I will meet with ministers. Everywhere I go my message will be the same.
- I have concerns about the ability of Wikibilim to be an independent and effective chapter in their legal environment. I have the same concerns in many other places around the world. But I'm a person who believes in evidence, and in taking risks to help bring about freedom of speech in various places around the world. I think Wikibilim is trustworthy, and so far, we have no one producing evidence that they are doing anything that is materially different from any other chapter. If we start to hear bad things, then we should react. I continue to say: we should not be complacent. But neither should we be paranoid lunatics.
- The article you reference attempts to turn this work entirely upside down through a completely laughable "conspiracy theory" type argument. Tony Blair has been criticized for taking a role advising the Kazakh government. Tony Blair is my wife's former boss and came to my wedding. Therefore... Jimmy Wales is a corrupt bastard who doesn't care about freedom of speech. It's a totally stupid argument. If anyone has a beef with Tony Blair about anything, they should write to him about it, not me.-Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:36, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- My reading of Andreas's article is that he's suggesting you might be naïve, not corrupt or involved in a conspiracy. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:53, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Jimbo, how could you care about freedom of speech and human rights in Kazakhstan, China or elsewhere, if you do nothing to support freedom of speech and human rights here on Wikipedia? Wikipedia is a tyranny on its own, I mean the way people are treated here, don't you see it Jimbo? 71.202.123.14 (talk) 17:22, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Admins were to stop tyranny but consensus was misunderstood: There are over 1,460 admins who should have helped reduce tyranny (per wp:BITE), but yet were very busy against activist editors and vandals, and meanwhile WP policies had been too nebulous. For instance, it took nearly 11 years for policy wp:CONSENSUS to have section "wp:Consensus#No consensus" and for years, many editors would demean opposing editors by saying, "You don't have consensus" as if consensus did not also require their consent, but now, the opponents can repond, "You don't have consensus either; there is no consensus" and consequently, hotly debated rules can be removed because "no consensus" means the rule has lost its footing, similar to a vote of "no confidence" to remove a leader. However, it was not until last year (3 November 2011) that "no consensus" was formally defined in policy wp:CON. Now, finally, admins have a clear policy statement to remove "tyrannical" rules from pages, as well as block people who are extremely hostile to others. It has taken years for Wikipedia to reach this level of maturity, to directly state (in policy) that "no consensus" means there is insufficient support (and a rule must be removed). Also, for no-consensus article titles, the title must be renamed to the first non-stub title used by the first major contributor to the article. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:24, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Even under your reading Anthony, the claim that he is naively corrupted, or naively conspiratorial (a "dupe," as they use to say) (in part because of something "his friend" Tony Blair did) is an intentionally insulting personal attack. People can do that elsewhere, but that is not what this forum is for. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:58, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- I think it's important to learn from this episode. Tony Blair is my wife's former boss. He has nothing to do with Wikipedia. He has nothing to do with Wikipedia and Kazakhstan. I've never talked to him about it. It has never even occurred to me to talk to him about it. Why was he brought into it? I would say two reasons: first, to create an insinuation that since Tony Blair has apparently been paid a lot of money to advise Kazakhstan, and since I know Tony Blair, maybe... corruption? Second, and this is the clever part, the knowledge that the newspapers in the UK are frequently irresponsible and inflammatory, and anything having to do with a potential scandal involving Tony Blair - even with zero evidence of any kind - is going to get in the papers. So, very clever and manipulative to have brought in that line of attack.
- Anthonyhcole, if I understand what you're saying, I fear that you've fallen victim to the ploy. Perhaps the mention of Tony Blair was not meant to suggest that I was corrupt or involved in a conspiracy, but rather "naïve" - well, I may well be naïve, but the fact remains, Tony Blair has nothing to do with any of this.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:28, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- I believe you. That article draws some very long bows. But. Amongst all that, Andreas has pointed out that the foundation is paying donors' money to WikiBilim and apparently allowing them to use the logo, while they're being paid by the Kazakh government. Any government funding of a chapter is problematical. It's impossible to always get these things right, so we need that bunch of obsessives prying and snooping and speculating and always suspecting the worst, to keep us from inadvertent error. Being distrusted and having your integrity impugned is unpleasant, and I empathise (I'm having it done to me by an anonymous editor on this very page as we speak). And I do wish Kohs and Damian and some of the others would elevate their rhetoric, wind back on the conspiracy theorising and be a little kinder to their fellow humans. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- A personal attack? What nonsense. Stop stirring Alan. Let the grown-ups talk please. --John (talk) 13:29, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. A personal attack. All grown-ups can see that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- It's robust discourse. If I think you're being manipulated, I'm sure you'd want me to tell you. That said, Jimbo has been very patient. In his shoes I would have kicked Andreas off this page on 26th October. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:47, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- That discussion by its nature would be an intensely personal one, based on clear knowledge by the OP of whether the one manipulated knows their own mind, and the nature of their own relationships -- not one open to assumption, speculation or gossip, including other living persons, at least in this forum. (The 26th, I take your word for.) Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:22, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- It's robust discourse. If I think you're being manipulated, I'm sure you'd want me to tell you. That said, Jimbo has been very patient. In his shoes I would have kicked Andreas off this page on 26th October. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 17:47, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. A personal attack. All grown-ups can see that. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:12, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
- My reading of Andreas's article is that he's suggesting you might be naïve, not corrupt or involved in a conspiracy. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:53, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- What a mass of lunacy. I nominate Chrsitopher Williams [sic] for the Order of the Dunce Cap, Secured With Three Rusty Nails, for reprinting this Wikipediocracy hogwash without a vestige of critical thought, or spellchecking for that matter. Yeah. Jimbo Wales is some kind of crook because he had the prime minister of bloody England (whatever) as a guest at his wedding. Now, the underlying issue - whether "constructive engagement" with repressive regimes is a good idea or a bad one - has been debated since the days of Reagan and China, and one can have multiple minds about it, but speaking of Wikipedia, surely our role should be to get stuff public licensed first and figure out what it is missing afterward, according to a time honored rule of gift horse dentition. So far as I see, the critics' premise is that Kazakshstan government resources are unusable, collaborating with their Academy of Science is unacceptable, having any editor from that country who is identifiable and hence prosecutable is unacceptable (and doubtless the others are sockpuppets of somebody up to no good). Wikipedia is no better than its sources, so we have a choice between accepting a large proportion of biased/censored Kazakh material or not having any worth speaking of. I think it's easier to add the truth to an article when you have an article. Wikipedia is lucky to have a Founder, someone we can trust, to try to corrupt a repressive government's proprieties more than they corrupt ours.
- Jimbo, I appreciate that you do and should have control over your talk page, though perhaps blocking this stuff can be more trouble than it's worth, because these people are more of a nuisance when they're out coordinating the yellow press than when they're here arguing. But now that you've tasted the cyberbullying they do firsthand, I would suggest what I've suggested before - that they can be resisted if people band together to stand up for one another. When you uninvited Fae from your talk page several months ago, it concerned his angry reaction to the same editor you just banned, who has had quite a presence here in the meanwhile. Without addressing the larger ArbCom issues that developed afterward, I think that it would be a very positive gesture if you would rescind Fae's "uninvitation" in the light of how things have progressed. Wnt (talk) 21:47, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- None of what has transpired here makes what Fae said at that time any less unhinged. I'd also note that as Fae is indefinitely banned from the project, a re-invitation would be kinda, um, pointless. Tarc (talk) 22:19, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Fae will be let back in by the new ArbCom. A new case will be started which will not be an appeal by Fae (otherwise they could reject it on procedural grounds), rather it will be about abuse of authority by the previous ArbCom. Count Iblis (talk) 00:13, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds like a great idea! *snickers* You go ahead and do that!--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- As I said, I didn't want to raise that issue here. I don't know what the new ArbCom will do and don't see the reason for optimism; but indefinite blocks can end. However, the provision that Fae publicly reveal accounts he may have used for legitimate and perhaps significant privacy reasons seems problematic. It does not escape me that Jimbo retains the authority for a final appeal over ArbCom, but it is not my place to raise that. I would think though that just as Jimbo's initial un-invitation cast a strong shadow on the initial case, a reconsideration might pave the way for some meeting of the minds. Wnt (talk) 01:36, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds like a great idea! *snickers* You go ahead and do that!--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 00:40, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Fae will be let back in by the new ArbCom. A new case will be started which will not be an appeal by Fae (otherwise they could reject it on procedural grounds), rather it will be about abuse of authority by the previous ArbCom. Count Iblis (talk) 00:13, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Wnt, you're certainly right about the lunacy involved, but I have to say that I'm feeling a certain amount of deja vu. This is exactly the same playbook that was followed by exactly the same people to attack the GibraltarpediA project a few months ago, using exactly the same methods and even the same media outlets. It's obvious that they again have been giving hostile stories to journalists who they think will be friendly to the anti-Wikipedia lines that they're spinning. Christopher Williams of the UK Daily Telegraph was similarly used to place a hostile article about Gibraltarpedia back in October. Now it's Jimbo's ox that's being gored. Jimbo clearly doesn't like it very much, which is understandable, but I hope it cures him once and for all of the idea that Jayen466 or any of the rest of the Wikipediocracy mob are interested in being an "ally" (as Jimbo once rather naively put it).
- The fact is that the core group behind Wikipediocracy start from a default assumption that Wikipedia is a sump of corruption and that individual Wikipedians, especially Jimbo, are using it as a get-rich-quick scheme. They want to undermine and discredit Wikipedia, or to force radical changes. They seek to do this not through persuasion – they are too few and too nutty for that to work – but through pushing conspiracy theories to gin up bogus "scandals", first GibraltarpediA, now targeting Jimbo himself, in order to provoke panics and knee-jerk responses. This has been going on for a long time. I think many people in the community recognise the cynical game that's being played here – hopefully Jimbo himself recognises it too now that he's a target. For everyone else, I suggest not jumping to conclusions and being appropriately sceptical of the motives of the Wikipediocracy activists. Prioryman (talk) 23:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Prioryman, I think you need to be careful with terminology. Some "activists" are people who risk their lives to help others or even to help along abstract concepts like freedom of information. Other activists are people who (misguidedly or otherwise) selflessly devote their lives to trying to make the world a better place. I'm not seeing many similarities with the sort of behaviour we've seen from people from Wikipediocracy there. Come to think of it, I think even using their own name for their hate site helps them to mislead others - we know very well that what they have in mind for Wikipedia once they have control of it will not resemble "democracy" in the slightest. The little slip that they made when the comment about "slit some throats" was let slip by the Wikipediocracy administration (yes, a "nutty" moment, as you put it, but it happened) gives a much better term for their mentality and their organisation - to me they will always be "the boxcutter crew". --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:48, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, Tarc. At least you can spell, which is a nice start.
- You're mixing up your concerns, though. It was the mention of Reagan supposedly having the first rapprochement with China, above, that started you thinking of Nixon. Don't think badly of yourself; it confused the hell out of me too :) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 03:41, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Then again, do I worry too much? On the part of the boxcutter site that our future lizard overlords so kindly still allow us mere mortals to view, a passing boxcutter dude suggests making a Wikipedia article about their website, since it's so well-known now (they think). "Please don't do that", pipes up another boxcutter right away. A second is there instantly to repeat the plea - no, no, any form of daylight on their noisome activities would be a very bad thing. (I wonder why that is.) What will they do instead? Oh, a third boxcutter admin pipes up - they'll discuss this privately offline so that it's handled just right. Yes. Given their hilariously ironic suppression of any dissenting voice even from their own "free speech" forum, this is rapidly moving from pathetic into some sort of self-parody. "Are you making a mockery of me? No sir, but I may be assisting." --Demiurge1000 (talk) 04:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think that group, on average, deserves to be seen as "activists", "fourth estate", and certainly not as "free speech" (remember their Commons decency crusade). Ultimately their root is in MyWikiBiz, and I see their purpose as commercial. They have gone after a number of high-ranking people in Wikimedia chapters, and are starting to substitute their own: for example, if you want to join the Meta:Wiki Med thematic organization, membership matters are handled by Anthonyhcole, one of the first people to support Gregory Kohs for a free merchandise giveaway after the idea was suggested on Wikipediocracy, and one of Fae's opponents, who has made a point that all members must disclose confirmed identity (to him, now). (To be clear, I did not say above, and do not imply, that he would hand over the information to any Wikipediocracy participant. The above text states only in relation to Wiki Med that he has attained a position of trust in that developing organization. Anthonyhcole also said on my talk page that he was not canvassed for that but had already been commenting, which is plausible.) JN466 was also active in those discussions. For some people "there is no such thing as bad press", and getting his name mentioned in articles about Wikipedia, even bad articles, is an asset. Likewise as WO is mentioned more and more it becomes more and more valuable. I see these people ultimately set up in a position to have a huge influence over whether, say, a particular herbal product is presented by Wikipedia as a quack remedy or a serious medicine; I would think it more likely or not that they'll be pulling down six figure salaries someday for their efforts. Meanwhile those who disagree with them like me don't want to so much as register for a free Highbeam account lest Wikipediocracy's legions target employers and loved ones for unjustifiable and scurrilous abuse as in Fae's case. Remember, some of the people on Wikipediocracy keep making little mentions about their tell-all book which someday will out and/or humiliate hundreds of high-ranking editors, presumably by taking all sorts of little things about them out of context they way they did with Fae. Each of you needs to decide on your own whether to oppose them or call them Sir. Such are the proceeds of such scheming; what we should remember is that the only thing they can't do is build up a huge free encyclopedia that changes the world by making huge amounts of knowledge readily available to everyone. People have been getting jobs doing "pragmatic" things for eons, but how many have done that?
- I have not changed my opinion, from the time of the Fae case, that that was the turning point when Wikipedia's sinking became unstoppable - that indeed WO and various other PR-directed entities and others with agendas of some sort or another will gradually tear apart and destroy the organization, leaving something unspeakable in its place. All the mild mannered editors who shy away from a fight are gone already, and it gets harder and harder with what is left to keep an even keel. I stroll around admiring the beauty of the grand ballroom even as the water gradually dances onto the floor, occasionally taking notes and convincing no one, not even myself, that they will really help to build a less sinkable ship one day. But I should comment that there are things I think that are important. A successor needs to separate the generation of content from its presentation, more readily allowing accumulations of multiple versions/viewpoints to avoid creating a power center with control over what version of history is presented. Wikipedia erred greatly in deviating from being an encyclopedia anyone can edit - we need one where banning editors is not even possible, let alone attempted. Creating a pool of banned editors meant creating a group of people whose agendas, in terms of self-respect and any possible future role, had to involve attempts to disgrace Wikipedia as a whole to destroy the legitimacy of its edicts against them. Rather, editors should be able to put in demonstrable work to self-certify to higher levels, including admin-like roles, and treatment of malefactors amounts essentially to revoking this certification so the editor starts over. There are other lessons to be learned, especially pertaining to paid editing. We'll have to hasten though, because the final collapse when it happens will be faster than we expect. Wnt (talk) 14:54, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Does anyone find it amusing that Kohs and MyWikiBiz are being liberally criticized here in a thread about "free speech", all on a site where Kohs (and MyWikiBiz) are forbidden to respond? -- 68.87.42.110 (talk) 19:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- I should note that above I suggested that site-banning editors was a key mistake in Wikipedia's development; and that the uninvitation of JN466 posting here was more trouble than it was worth; (and for that matter i made the same comment about Kuiper? on Commons) and called for Fae's uninvitation to be rescinded; and below I suggested that editors should have leeway to say what they wish; so I hope this is not addressed at me. Nonetheless I should also point out that the editors are saying what they wish on that other site, and indeed, in the press, and having an effect on Wikipedia (not a good one), so they can hardly claim to be victims of a police state, only the ineffective use of overly intrusive site administration. Wnt (talk) 05:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it is how Wikipedia works. Wikipedians, including even such critics as Andreas, seem to be very concerned about human rights in Kazakhstan, but nobody cares about human rights, here on Wikipedia. Only on Wikipedia the anonymous community is allowed to
governto lynch human beings who are not even allowed to defend themselves.71.202.120.247 (talk) 20:10, 27 December 2012 (UTC) - Someone's mother is looking for the Brandy Butter. John lilburne (talk) 19:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Does anyone find it amusing that Kohs and MyWikiBiz are being liberally criticized here in a thread about "free speech", all on a site where Kohs (and MyWikiBiz) are forbidden to respond? -- 68.87.42.110 (talk) 19:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Then again, do I worry too much? On the part of the boxcutter site that our future lizard overlords so kindly still allow us mere mortals to view, a passing boxcutter dude suggests making a Wikipedia article about their website, since it's so well-known now (they think). "Please don't do that", pipes up another boxcutter right away. A second is there instantly to repeat the plea - no, no, any form of daylight on their noisome activities would be a very bad thing. (I wonder why that is.) What will they do instead? Oh, a third boxcutter admin pipes up - they'll discuss this privately offline so that it's handled just right. Yes. Given their hilariously ironic suppression of any dissenting voice even from their own "free speech" forum, this is rapidly moving from pathetic into some sort of self-parody. "Are you making a mockery of me? No sir, but I may be assisting." --Demiurge1000 (talk) 04:42, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Free Speech
There used to be a thing called Freedom of Speech on one's own talk pages, because how could one get away with saying "Happy Xmas", even though that had NOTHING to do with "building an Encyclopedia"? The (syn)tax inspectors have taken over the building, and they are not going to allow anyone to disagree with them. This place used to be about communication, but it's not anymore. It's about CONTROL. Sad, but true. Amen...--andreasegde (talk) 20:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Free speech has never existed on the talk page since that only applies to the government. Please see WP:SPEECH. That being said it may be better to know what the actual issue is because we have no way of knowing if you may have been treated properly or not.--64.229.167.20 (talk) 20:48, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Oh dear: "Free speech has never existed... that only applies to the government". I am shocked. I was making the point that editors used to be able to say anything on their own talk pages, but this freedom has now been cancelled, because one can only refer to subjects that are concerned with "building an Encyclopedia". Freedom of Speech has been cancelled. I would say, "Happy new Year", but that is not allowed.--andreasegde (talk) 21:22, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide a diff to show what you are talking about? GB fan 21:40, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm? Why would saying, 'good day,' 'merry hello,' or 'happy Kwanzaa,' etc., to another editor automatically be seen as not building an encyclopedia? Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:42, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yup. Without a diff to provide some context, this is just a pretty useless thread ... I'd love to be able to resolve the issue, if I knew what the heck the issue was. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:54, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- A's usertalk history doesn't help. I looked the first page it to see if someone had deleted a nice Christmas greeting... it's just him/her deleting block notifications, etc. PhnomPencil (✉) 21:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Seeing two Merry Christmas messages on this very page, I'm questioning the successes of our campaign to eradicate merriment. In all seriousness, editors are given considerable leeway to use their talk page to discuss things that are tangential to improving the encyclopedia, as long as most of their activity is related to building the encyclopedia and the content doesn't violate any important rules. Editors do also have considerable freedom to express unpopular views, as long as they are about editing Wikipedia and they do it the right way, avoiding things line personal attacks. There are very few ideas that get you sanctioned or blocked just for expressing them. Monty845 22:17, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- I think we should indeed give editors the freedom over their user pages and not try to prohibit "blogs" or "canvassing" - otherwise groups like Wikipediocracy simply take over those roles, which are less accessible and not democratic and don't have to follow any rule at all we might want to retain. Allowing those functions would also tend to draw more people in because they would appreciate the resource, but in the process they would become familiar with the markup and might be recruited into article writing. Wnt (talk) 15:03, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- OP's comments are rather ambiguous, but they aren't complaining about anyone being blocked for posting a Christmas message, but rather using the idea of blocking one for such as "not building an encyclopedia" as an analogy, and given where this complaint seems to come from, a terrible one at that. This seems to stem from User:Penyulap's block. And while I don't know anything about that situation, the very nature of OP's generic ranting makes it hardly worth consideration. If there is a complaint to be made, just make it. Resolute 15:48, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- I think we should indeed give editors the freedom over their user pages and not try to prohibit "blogs" or "canvassing" - otherwise groups like Wikipediocracy simply take over those roles, which are less accessible and not democratic and don't have to follow any rule at all we might want to retain. Allowing those functions would also tend to draw more people in because they would appreciate the resource, but in the process they would become familiar with the markup and might be recruited into article writing. Wnt (talk) 15:03, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- Seeing two Merry Christmas messages on this very page, I'm questioning the successes of our campaign to eradicate merriment. In all seriousness, editors are given considerable leeway to use their talk page to discuss things that are tangential to improving the encyclopedia, as long as most of their activity is related to building the encyclopedia and the content doesn't violate any important rules. Editors do also have considerable freedom to express unpopular views, as long as they are about editing Wikipedia and they do it the right way, avoiding things line personal attacks. There are very few ideas that get you sanctioned or blocked just for expressing them. Monty845 22:17, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- A's usertalk history doesn't help. I looked the first page it to see if someone had deleted a nice Christmas greeting... it's just him/her deleting block notifications, etc. PhnomPencil (✉) 21:58, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yup. Without a diff to provide some context, this is just a pretty useless thread ... I'd love to be able to resolve the issue, if I knew what the heck the issue was. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 21:54, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- Oh dear: "Free speech has never existed... that only applies to the government". I am shocked. I was making the point that editors used to be able to say anything on their own talk pages, but this freedom has now been cancelled, because one can only refer to subjects that are concerned with "building an Encyclopedia". Freedom of Speech has been cancelled. I would say, "Happy new Year", but that is not allowed.--andreasegde (talk) 21:22, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
I apologise for the misunderstanding, but I wasn't talking about posting a Xmas message, I was talking about if one is allowed to say (with no insults or aggressive behaviour), about something that one is accused of, something that one disagrees with, or just expressing one's own opinions about anything at all. If all we are allowed to talk about is "building an encyclopedia", then our conversation/communication would be severely limited. Where is the line, where is it drawn, and who defines it? Since 2006, I have been guilty of posting tons of comments on my own talk page that had absolutely nothing to do "building an encyclopedia" --andreasegde (talk) 22:18, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- You should learn some "mutual respect". In this case, everyone should respect the host of this "private" talk page. By that means Jimbo has the privilege to remove what he considers offensive and unwelcoming. Leaving a message in other user's talk page is also a privilege granted by the WMF, you are obligated to obey Wikipedia policies on user talk page, not the US laws. If this is a "public" area under the US law, you can do whatever you want without Jimbo's approval. So stating "conversation/communication would be severely limited" for managing one's own talk page is an insult to every Wikipedian who is given a private user talk page the minute they submit an edit to Wikipedia. Jimbo's position on those baseless yet cleverly spun reports (which in your view is just "expressing one's own opinion") is sufficiently to be removed from this talk page. You may discuss those topics elsewhere, but definitely not here, and there is no ground to call Jimbo a tyrant for limiting freedom of speech in his own talk page. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 01:14, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- A couple comments. (1) Freedom of speech is a human right. It can not be arbitrarily erased at Wikipedia because somebody decided once upon a time to make WP:NOFREESPEECHHERE part of company policy. It can only be a human right that is violated. (2) It follows that people have a right to say whatever they want on their talk pages, so long as they are here to build an encyclopedia and not for ulterior or nefarious motives. Carrite (talk) 03:32, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- Yup: wrong, for the simple reason that talk pages don't belong to the user: they are a facility provided to Wikipedia contributors for the purposes intended. There is no 'human rights' law that says that individuals have to be provided with free webspace, or with any other medium of communication. I have a 'right' (subject to the limitations of libel law etc) to write a book on The Role of Arthur Askey in the Apollo Moon Landings Project. I don't have the right to demand it be published. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:28, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- (1) This is clearly not the place to debate what is human rights. But my view is, a right without protection by the law is meaningless, powerless. You can't shout at another person on Mars to not kill you because you have the innate right to live and the offender will be punished legally. Human right is only violated when the written law says so. But you will never agree with me on this so no need to argue anymore. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 04:38, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- Just reading through this thread I can see a good deal of freedom from the OP to NOT be concise or just plain clear. I wish I understood what this was about. Even reading through the Free speech thread on User:Penyulap's (the original comment is a copy paste from a Dec 26 post on that user's talpage) page I can't seem to figure it out. Certainly this isn't just a commentary on freedoms per policy or guidelines but seems to be some kind of community appeal against Penyulaps block. Almost looks like campaigning.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- We seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot here, Amadscientist, so to give some background this Ani thread from a few months back may be of assistance, as it resulted in a one year topic ban and subsequent one week block to the OP for a vio of the parallel interaction ban. There is also a heaping helping of the truly bizarre (in my view) writings of the gone and mostly unlamented Penyulap. As I see it the admittedly lengthy process, of which I was a part, illustrates an example of Wikipedia sanctions working well: the community, at long last, had had enough. Now the OP is reduced to cryptic complaints on Jimmy's page. Oy. Jusdafax 08:06, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry if we got off on the wrong footing. Yes, I am familiar with User:Penyulap's "truly bizarre writings" (a view I share as well). I just can't seem to fathom what this post is supposed to be, if not just way to force this back into the spotlight to make Penyulap feel like they are being "Represented". If the usual Wikipedia:Standard offer is not adequate, then I can't help but feel this is an exraordinary reason to object to a return by Penyulap in the future.--Amadscientist (talk) 08:18, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- We seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot here, Amadscientist, so to give some background this Ani thread from a few months back may be of assistance, as it resulted in a one year topic ban and subsequent one week block to the OP for a vio of the parallel interaction ban. There is also a heaping helping of the truly bizarre (in my view) writings of the gone and mostly unlamented Penyulap. As I see it the admittedly lengthy process, of which I was a part, illustrates an example of Wikipedia sanctions working well: the community, at long last, had had enough. Now the OP is reduced to cryptic complaints on Jimmy's page. Oy. Jusdafax 08:06, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- Just reading through this thread I can see a good deal of freedom from the OP to NOT be concise or just plain clear. I wish I understood what this was about. Even reading through the Free speech thread on User:Penyulap's (the original comment is a copy paste from a Dec 26 post on that user's talpage) page I can't seem to figure it out. Certainly this isn't just a commentary on freedoms per policy or guidelines but seems to be some kind of community appeal against Penyulaps block. Almost looks like campaigning.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:44, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Quoting your recent comments on Rfa
Hi Jimmy. I have taken the liberty of mentioning and quoting you at Wikipedia talk:Requests for adminship regarding your comments on this page during your ArbCom appointments. The community there has been debating the topic of difficult Rfa's with reasonable civility for years, and it seemed important to give you notice of that discussion. Thanks, and best wishes always! Jusdafax 22:49, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- I believe his last comment on that post was "There will be plenty of time for panic in January. :-)--Jimbo Wales"
- Is it January already?!--Amadscientist (talk) 22:56, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not much for sarcasm, but to take your comment at face value, that board is a bit more measured, on balance, than this one, and the topic has been ongoing for quite a while. By the way, since you seem to have extra time on your hands, I should take this opportunity to note that I am still waiting for your reply regarding deletion of 'Controversy Sections' over at the Dianne Feinstein section on the BLP noticeboard. Thanks. Jusdafax 04:41, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- I wouldn't hold your breath. Seriously. Why would I even begin to think that was directed to me? You asked: "Could someone..." If you were waiting for me....you may be waiting a very long time based on your comment. I'll respond here just so you don't turn blue. Per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, specifically WP:STRUCTURE:
- I'm not much for sarcasm, but to take your comment at face value, that board is a bit more measured, on balance, than this one, and the topic has been ongoing for quite a while. By the way, since you seem to have extra time on your hands, I should take this opportunity to note that I am still waiting for your reply regarding deletion of 'Controversy Sections' over at the Dianne Feinstein section on the BLP noticeboard. Thanks. Jusdafax 04:41, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
The internal structure of an article may require additional attention, to protect neutrality, and to avoid problems like POV forking and undue weight. Although specific article structures are not, as a rule, prohibited, care must be taken to ensure that the overall presentation is broadly neutral.
Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure, such as a back-and-forth dialogue between proponents and opponents.[1] It may also create an apparent hierarchy of fact where details in the main passage appear "true" and "undisputed", whereas other, segregated material is deemed "controversial", and therefore more likely to be false. Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections that ignore or fight against each other.
- I didn't say it was forbidden just "suggested that it be broken up and the information added to appropriate sections per guidelines" I also never said it was a BLP policy, just that having a controversy section in a BLP article does seem POV...and it does.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:16, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- Although, it is a policy of Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons under Due weight:
- I didn't say it was forbidden just "suggested that it be broken up and the information added to appropriate sections per guidelines" I also never said it was a BLP policy, just that having a controversy section in a BLP article does seem POV...and it does.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:16, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone. Do not give disproportionate space to particular viewpoints; the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all. Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association, and biased or malicious content.
As noted in Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View footnote: "Article sections devoted solely to criticism, and pro-and-con sections within articles, are two commonly cited examples. There are varying views on whether and to what extent such structures are appropriate; see guidance on thread mode, criticism, pro-and-con lists, and the criticism template."
The idea expressed in WP:Eventualism – that every Wikipedia article is a work in progress, and that it is therefore okay for an article to be temporarily unbalanced, because it will eventually be brought into shape – does not apply to biographies. Given their potential impact on biography subjects' lives, biographies must be fair to their subjects at all times.
--Amadscientist (talk) 05:27, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- You might want to get used to sarcasm. If Admin can get away with comments on WP:RSN like "If you remove the cites I am afraid I will have to kill you.", then my asking if its already January is just a simple question with an obvious answer.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:33, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Infoboxes
Sorry to bother you, but, when you have time, could you have a look at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera#Infobox_comment_removal_discussion which has generated a lot of heat. Season's greetings from York. --GuillaumeTell 00:55, 27 December 2012 (UTC)
Kazakh journalist is missing
Jimmy, we who are very relieved that the Wikimedia Foundation is making cooperation with the Kazakh Wikipedia hope that you will use your great persuasion powers and extensive contacts with PR agencies and governmental leaders to help call for the finding and safe return of Tokbergen Abiyev, who has been missing now for over a week. He disappeared just after announcing a press conference to report on corruption in Kazakhstan. We know that the good people you are working with in Kazakhstan can help, if they will only apply loving and thoughtful pressure on their government to tolerate and respond to criticism, rather than censoring criticism and making people disappear. You achieved victory against SOPA. You achieved victory for Richard O'Dwyer. Please achieve victory for Mr. Abiyev! -- 50.144.0.96 (talk) 05:35, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. I will look into this.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:43, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
Pseudoscience and bad science on TEDx
This might interest you. It is advice from TED to the TEDx organisers on how to weed out inappropriate speakers.
Quote: "While you’re not expected to become an overnight expert on all fields of science and health, here is how to start researching a topic you’re not an expert on: Start with some basic web research. You should be able to understand at least the big issues in every field you present onstage. Wikipedia is your first stop to gain a basic background. Following primary-source links from Wikipedia, work out from there to university websites, science and health blogs, and databases of papers published in respected journals."
--Anthonyhcole (talk) 06:55, 28 December 2012 (UTC)