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Undid revision 489995678 by 93.81.223.71 (talk) - Just the Beatles troll, nothing to see here |
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--With respect, [[User:Николай95|Николай95]] ([[User talk:Николай95|talk]]) 16:53, 30 April 2012 (UTC) |
--With respect, [[User:Николай95|Николай95]] ([[User talk:Николай95|talk]]) 16:53, 30 April 2012 (UTC) |
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== Not exists other way to focus the attention on ill issue: restore the topic about the crime! == |
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<big>Please do it, if we have the common goal: to destroy the violation of copyright, which is directed against the EMI and Apple Corps. Number of the proofs is more, than need even. And please, focus your attention at the two new messages there.</big> - [[Special:Contributions/93.81.223.71|93.81.223.71]] ([[User talk:93.81.223.71|talk]]) 19:09, 30 April 2012 (UTC). |
Revision as of 19:11, 30 April 2012
(Manual archive list) |
Am I out of line on this? It makes me sick to my stomach, and I think it's violative of our ToS as well
Could you have a look at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Cla68 advertising his services as a paid Wikipedia editor? As is often the case, your name is being invoked. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Looks like a pretty effective troll to me. Par for the course for this particular editor.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- There are comments there regarding comments you made at some point on this issue, not on Cla68 himself, but on the issue itself...I am sure if you're bothering, you can read it. I am vehemently in opposition to paid editing. We all know it goes on, but under no circumstances is it to be tolerated if we know about it. Next thing we'll have is paid supports...at Rfa, at FAC and elsewhere. Paid editing leads to graft...and the ruination of this website.--MONGO 22:25, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- I do hereby declare that for $500 I will support an RfA ;-) but no seriously? Paid editing occurs... fact. The question is putting limits/controls on it. The first step is to have people who are paid to edit, to declare such and to start to define criteria surrounding paid editors. E.g. declaring who is paying them and/or what they are being asked to write. This is only going to become more common place in the future. Hell, I saw on another page that the Smithsonian now has a Wikipedian in Residence. Undoubtably other large organizations have employees whose job it is to monitor articles and/or edit them. Do you doubt that Romney/Obama don't have people editing their articles and pushing their agendas? Wouldn't it be nice to know whom? As for Cla doing this as a business... more power to him. A short note on his page that he will work for money is acceptable, although I do object to his listing prices. THAT is advertising, but would you be opposed to my putting in my bio my company and what I do? Would you be opposed to my mentioniing that I am an independent consultant in the audit industry and then linking my page? No. That is par for the course. The question is not what he says, but how he says it.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 01:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Additionally, am prepared to commit to writing a policy which prohibits paid editing...the enforcement of such will be impractical, but if in stone, all will know where the website falls on this matter.--MONGO 22:28, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- There are comments there regarding comments you made at some point on this issue, not on Cla68 himself, but on the issue itself...I am sure if you're bothering, you can read it. I am vehemently in opposition to paid editing. We all know it goes on, but under no circumstances is it to be tolerated if we know about it. Next thing we'll have is paid supports...at Rfa, at FAC and elsewhere. Paid editing leads to graft...and the ruination of this website.--MONGO 22:25, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
- Have fun. I don't see that ever reaching community consensus. Just from observation, it looks like most of the community, who have weighed in thus far, fall on the "it's how you're editing, not why you're editing that matters" side. SilverserenC 00:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think that's a wild misinterpretation of the evidence. A handful of noisy editors, mainly conflicted themselves, are in favor. Most editors are opposed, but don't bother stalking and killing every discussion about it. When we get to a proper project-wide vote, the correct answer will be reached.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- And, like I said, I don't believe the community is going to be on your side. The majority understands that everyone has a COI, some more than others, and that it is through their actions on-wiki that determines whether they are allowed to edit, not their COI. We have plenty of editors who have a strong COI that are able to edit quite neutrally without issue. And if one bans paid editing, it raises the question about anyone else who has a strong COI, and whether we should be allowed them to edit. Then those with a slightly less COI and those with slightly less than that, until you end up with nobody being allowed to edit, because they all have a COI, as, in most cases, they wouldn't be editing an article subject unless they were personally interested in it and have an opinion on it.
- I think that's a wild misinterpretation of the evidence. A handful of noisy editors, mainly conflicted themselves, are in favor. Most editors are opposed, but don't bother stalking and killing every discussion about it. When we get to a proper project-wide vote, the correct answer will be reached.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Have fun. I don't see that ever reaching community consensus. Just from observation, it looks like most of the community, who have weighed in thus far, fall on the "it's how you're editing, not why you're editing that matters" side. SilverserenC 00:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Luckily, most editors understand that it is for these very reasons that COI is largely irrelevant and only acts as a caution, but not as a wall. All that matters is whether an editor is making neutral contributions. If they are, then it doesn't matter if they have a strong positive or negative opinion on the subject. If they're editing neutrally, who cares? SilverserenC 00:30, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- This fallacious line of argument has been dealt with many times. Well, no sense in you going on and on about it. You are in the extreme minority here and I can't possibly convince you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:33, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) I am in the extreme minority on your talk page, yes, that's obvious. That's because your talk page is, often, an echo chamber for your opinions. That doesn't mean it is at all representative of the actual community opinion on a subject. SilverserenC 00:46, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- This fallacious line of argument has been dealt with many times. Well, no sense in you going on and on about it. You are in the extreme minority here and I can't possibly convince you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:33, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that I can convince Silverseren, because I think he's an advocate for an extreme position. So this is for those who might be naively taken in by his misreading of community consensus and who find his argument up above tempting to believe. I have just one simple thought experiment for you. Right now there is a big lawsuit going on between Google and Oracle. The judge in the case is Judge William Alsup. All of Judge Alsup's work in the case is public, he's in a public courtroom, and when he publishes his opinion in the case, that will be made public too. It will be subject to a lot of scrutiny. What would you think if you found out that Judge Alsup has a part-time job on the weekends advising Oracle on their patent litigation strategy for say $50,000 a year, much less than his salary as a judge, but a nice boost. Would you say "It isn't his motives for coming to a conclusion in the case, it's how he judges" and argue that Judges ought to be able to accept payments from litigants, as long as - somehow - they remain neutral?
It's frankly absurd, and it is equally absurd to take the position that someone can be a paid advocate (don't fall for the other fallacy, which is conflating the question of ALL paid editing with that of paid advocacy) and that as long as they are neutral it will not harm the reputation of Wikipedia. It is transparently obvious that if we welcome this kind of corruption, it will destroy the reputation of Wikipedia.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:43, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- The thought experiment surprisingly has a simple answer, R v Sussex Justices, ex parte McCarthy which I knew about because I remember it being used in this DRV. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 12:47, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- From a brief read of the ANI discussion, his position doesn't seem to be extreme. In fact, a lot of the comments fall on the "well, so what?" end of the issue.
- The Judge Alsup analogy would only apply if the person in charge of FA were a paid advocate, if you think about it a little more. --SB_Johnny | talk 09:25, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I might start by saying that, if something is going to destroy the reputation of Wikipedia, there are a significant number of other issues that are actually damaging the encyclopedia that will destroy its reputation long before the allowance of paid editing would have any effect. But to respond more directly to that, the media's reception to an idea is largely dependant on how the idea is represented before them. If this paid editing issue causes a rift in the community, you can be sure that there will be press coverage of the conflict and it will not be good for Wikipedia (just like past conflicts have been bad). And a complete banning of paid editing would just lead to media complaints of hypocrisy that paid editors are banned, but those editors with extreme COI issues (often high ranking Wikipedia members as well) are allowed to roam free. On the other hand, if a direct guideline was laid out that welcomed paid editing, but explained specifically what is and is now acceptable and also offered them various direct avenues to have their suggested improvements be looked at, then I sincerely doubt there would be much, if any, bad press over those actions. SilverserenC 00:56, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Can we get back to the original complaint? Paid editing being good or bad is likely to go on forever. Should users be able to advertise their services on Wikipedia or not? --Onorem♠Dil 00:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I would say no. SilverserenC 00:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Well, we do have some agreement then. :-) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
[clear violation of POLICY "Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising and showcasing. This applies to articles, categories, templates, talk page discussions, and user pages." (as well as WP:POINT removed.]
- Last time I checked, blatantly promoting a product (FA article in this case) was not acceptable by policy or culture. Could you explain why this is different? --Onorem♠Dil 01:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm quite certain that this is all an attempt by Cla to be extremely sarcastic. Though i'm also sure he wouldn't mind if someone took him up on the offer, but the sarcasm does come first. Regardless though, sarcasm has its place and this isn' it. SilverserenC 01:12, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, you can find Cla's reasoning right here. SilverserenC 01:17, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- So...massive "Point" made. Good for Cla. Are we done with this stupidity yet? --Onorem♠Dil 01:32, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Looks pretty flawed frankly...bottom line is paid advocacy is intertwined with paid editing...they are almost inseparable. IF someone is paying another to edit, then they expect an outcome...surely one that favors their POV. It's ludicrous to think anyone would pay and not expect something in return.--MONGO 01:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- They expect an improved article. An improved article, rather than a stub, would be better for the person. And, if we're talking companies, updated company stats would also be helpful. It really doesn't have to do with POV-slanting an article at all. SilverserenC 01:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- but...but...but...that is where they then say, gee thanks for updating our "stats" now how much is it going to cost us (to seasoned well thought of editor) to add THIS'? One leads to another for sure. I'll not be swayed by the motivations of corporate hacks to whitewash the facts...we already have enough of that going on with corporate ownership of the news...WE are supposed to be above all that.--MONGO 02:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- MONGO, several years ago I assisted a paid editor (for free) to take an article to FA. This was the article. The primary editor was an employee of the university. The article is fine. What you are really saying is that you don't trust Wikipedia's administrative or FA processes to enforce NPOV. After such a long time as you have participated in this project, doesn't that disappoint you? Cla68 (talk) 02:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- that article looks fine...but is it fine? It has two sections with left hand margin image placement at beginning of the section...MOS recommends right hand alignment with text left unless there is a paragraph of text first (example)...another section has text sandwiched between two images...where is the controversy section? Just touching the tip of the berg here...want more? I looked and saw nary an edit to that article by Cla68...I did see your support at FAC...it was a half sentence...so what are you trying to tell us? That your idea of assisting a paid editor should consist of a support vote for their enterprise? In consideration though, I didn't check the talkpage archives and did see other more well rounded supports...but I'm responding to your summary of "assistance".--MONGO 03:02, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Are you declaring your intentions or advertising your services? What is your point in saying that you want 1000 for an article? --Onorem♠Dil 02:06, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- They expect an improved article. An improved article, rather than a stub, would be better for the person. And, if we're talking companies, updated company stats would also be helpful. It really doesn't have to do with POV-slanting an article at all. SilverserenC 01:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Last time I checked, blatantly promoting a product (FA article in this case) was not acceptable by policy or culture. Could you explain why this is different? --Onorem♠Dil 01:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Chill out with the personal attacks.VolunteerMarek 02:17, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just an observation. Do you have a better way to describe it? --Onorem♠Dil 02:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- If a business will pay $1000 for a featured article, imagine how much it will pay for a successful AfD. Wnt (talk) 02:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- In terms of deleting or keeping an article? Either way, there's a significant difference between paid editing and what you're talking about. The former just involves (ideally) improving specific articles within our rules and guidelines. The latter would be breaking Wikipedia's rules to get a desired outcome. Of course, I don't even see how the latter could happen at all. Are you referring to an admin being paid off to close an AfD with a certain outcome? But then that would also mean that they would have to have a method of getting the AfD discussion to go their way, because it's otherwise be overturned at DRV. I just don't see paid AfD closing working at all without paying off everyone involved and, if that happens, it'll either be canvassing with a bunch of new accounts which we already know how to deal with or it'll be paying off a bunch of established users and I find it extremely unlikely, if not impossible, that none of them will come out and explain what's going on. SilverserenC 02:31, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- (ec)Entrepreneur---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 02:45, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- If a business will pay $1000 for a featured article, imagine how much it will pay for a successful AfD. Wnt (talk) 02:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just an observation. Do you have a better way to describe it? --Onorem♠Dil 02:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Chill out with the personal attacks.VolunteerMarek 02:17, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
<-- Yeah, ok, we got to nip this false analogy, which unfortunately was stated by Jimbo above, in the butt. Comparing being paid for bringing an article to an FA status to a judge in charge of a case who is also employed by one of the litigants is obviously - obviously, as in a few seconds of reflection should make one realize it - incorrect and misleading. A more appropriate analogy would be to one of the parties in a case ... horror of horrors!, hiring a lawyer. Which, I'm told, happens all the time.
Likewise, bringing AfD closures of AfDs or whatever into it is an obvious red herring. That's not what we're talking about.
The judge analogy fails because there is an intrinsic issue of power there. So yes, an admin who takes money to close an AfD a particular way, or to block someone etc. is acting unethically. And that should be prohibited. However, there's nothing intrinsically unethical about being paid to make edits - which can be reverted at any time - to an article. In fact, being paid to make quality legitimate edits to an article nicely aligns social and private incentives.
So basically, paid editing Yes, paid adminin', reviewin', Afd-closin', and other forms of constabulatin', No. THOSE are the people with the real conflict of interest. Being worried about the fact that some lowly joe schmoe is getting some compensation for improving the encyclopedia, is so far down the list of legitimate concerns that it exposes the (faux?) outrage here and on AN/I as the unintentionally hilarious sanctimonious piece of self-mocking twaddle that it is.VolunteerMarek 02:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed. But I would also add, being paid to present a certain side of the story would be equally offensive... but we have those people and there is no way to get rid of them. The question here, is can a person be hired to edit objectively with the intent of getting a FA---which includes by definition being Neutral and Unbiased. There is a difference between this and paid advocacy.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 03:04, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Ugh analogies; a traditionally poor rhetoric. It's intellectually underhand to try that avenue (this is not the first time you have done it) as is the attempt to cast elements here as an extremist (seriously?) minority (based on some unseen super-majority who don't contribute to discussions). I have just read the COI RFC (what a disaster) where a huge number of people commented - more than most community "votes". But, if you are that confident of a community !vote process opposing this sort of activity then I fully support you going ahead and making one... --Errant (chat!) 08:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- In fact, you know, your obnoxious approach to this has annoyed me (sorry) so I'm going to insist on finally getting some answers to these questions (which you have consistently avoided when brought up):
- I wrote Digital forensics (currently a good article) on company time, does this mean I am a paid editor? Should I AFD it?
- How does your viewpoint fit with the WMF sanctioned Wikipedian in Residence - some of whom have been employed to edit Wikipedia articles.
- Your answers here are critical, because I feel it highlights how the situation isn't as cut-and-dried as you wish to cast it. --Errant (chat!) 09:05, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- It isn't clear if you are asking me or some of the other participants in the discussion. I can't imagine that you are asking me because I have answered questions like this directly many times. I draw a strong distinction between paid advocacy and other types of editing which may be compensated. I don't see that as a complicated distinction at all. Regarding Digital forensics, I will take a look at it and give you an opinion on the ethics of you editing it if you like. Regarding Wikipedian in Residence, I think it crucial that people in such positions never edit to promote the institutions where they are in residence - and think it is a bannable offense if they do.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Feel free to check the article. I have noted you consistently use the word "advocacy" - which I agree with entirely - a word that refers to motive... but it is not clear whether you view all paid editing in general as primo-facto advocacy (the implication in your reply here is that you do not). Wikipedians in Residence often edit their home institutions article; is that over the line into editing to promote? I argue that motivation is the key here, and money is just one factor. --Errant (chat!) 10:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- errrrrrrmmmm ... ummmmmmm .... I'm not quite sure how to put this one, Jimbo .... but how does this tie in with this? Pesky (talk) 11:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I guess it's an example of what he intended when he wrote last month "I intend to host general philosophical and policy discussions on my page from time to time, and I intend to enforce a higher standard of civility than you may be comfortable with. If you don't like it, that's fine with me, it really is. Just don't participate if you can't do so while behaving in a respectful manner to others." (emphasis mine). Fram (talk) 13:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- That's not making it any more clear to me. It may because I'm HFA. On the other hand, it could actually be a total contradiction. What I'm having trouble with is understanding how referring to another editor as a troll, and saying it's par for the course for that editor, is in line with the policy; let alone in line with "a higher standard of civility". To whom does this "higher standard" apply? Is there a list? Is there an answer? Pesky (talk) 14:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think Fram is sarcastically pointing out that Jimbo violated his own stated civility position. Thus, Fram was agreeing with you, Pesky. (Correct me if i'm wrong, Fram) SilverserenC 16:35, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Aha! I fort so! What I would appreciate, though, would be a reply from Jimbo. I know the correct procedure, if one's concerned about possible violations of WP:CIVIL, is to bring it up with a politely worded message on the user's talk page ... but I have to admit I'm not entirely sure what the "official next step" is supposed to be if the matter is ignored. Pesky (talk) 23:24, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think Fram is sarcastically pointing out that Jimbo violated his own stated civility position. Thus, Fram was agreeing with you, Pesky. (Correct me if i'm wrong, Fram) SilverserenC 16:35, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- That's not making it any more clear to me. It may because I'm HFA. On the other hand, it could actually be a total contradiction. What I'm having trouble with is understanding how referring to another editor as a troll, and saying it's par for the course for that editor, is in line with the policy; let alone in line with "a higher standard of civility". To whom does this "higher standard" apply? Is there a list? Is there an answer? Pesky (talk) 14:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I guess it's an example of what he intended when he wrote last month "I intend to host general philosophical and policy discussions on my page from time to time, and I intend to enforce a higher standard of civility than you may be comfortable with. If you don't like it, that's fine with me, it really is. Just don't participate if you can't do so while behaving in a respectful manner to others." (emphasis mine). Fram (talk) 13:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- errrrrrrmmmm ... ummmmmmm .... I'm not quite sure how to put this one, Jimbo .... but how does this tie in with this? Pesky (talk) 11:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Jimbo writes, I think it crucial that people in such positions never edit to promote the institutions where they are in residence - and think it is a bannable offense if they do. So, it is ok for them to write on subjects for which they are familiar/exposed to, just so long as they "never edit to promote?" E.g. they write neutrally and in line with our other policies? But how would we know? How do you know who is "the wikipedian in residence" at Cornell Univerisity? At Sears? At McDonald's? The Republican/Democratic party? I'm certain that most universities and larger corporations have professional writers/employees monitoring and editing their articles. Right now, we don't know who they are---unless they explicitly tell us. Which I'd rather have than a secret paid editor pushing an agenda.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 15:40, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think Baloonman is absolutely right. One is reminded of this ! Martinevans123 (talk) 15:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I feel a need to second this statement as well. Being an editable and incredibly popular site means that we will inevitably have people around with some bias or intent to further their own goals. As Balloonman already stated it is extremely likely that larger institutions monitor or influence their own page - didn't one editor write a tool that confirmed that used IP addresses on some article's belong to the corporations in question? And how many of the smaller, less knowns companies only have an article since they started it?
- Feel free to check the article. I have noted you consistently use the word "advocacy" - which I agree with entirely - a word that refers to motive... but it is not clear whether you view all paid editing in general as primo-facto advocacy (the implication in your reply here is that you do not). Wikipedians in Residence often edit their home institutions article; is that over the line into editing to promote? I argue that motivation is the key here, and money is just one factor. --Errant (chat!) 10:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- It isn't clear if you are asking me or some of the other participants in the discussion. I can't imagine that you are asking me because I have answered questions like this directly many times. I draw a strong distinction between paid advocacy and other types of editing which may be compensated. I don't see that as a complicated distinction at all. Regarding Digital forensics, I will take a look at it and give you an opinion on the ethics of you editing it if you like. Regarding Wikipedian in Residence, I think it crucial that people in such positions never edit to promote the institutions where they are in residence - and think it is a bannable offense if they do.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Point is case is that we cannot know who a contributer is. If Cla68 has improved an article to FA status in exchange for money, and he wouldn't have mentioned it would we have detected it in the first place? Also, if we cannot detect it, how could we even act against it or justify acting against it? I am all to happy to hammer shady companies that try to whitewash or promote others, but an editor who earned his spurs is another matter. And what of the hypothetical case where a charitable organization decides to invest in public knowledge and therefor hires a biologist/chemist or two to go over our animal/chemistry related pages? There are simply to many shades of grey in this matter to have a hard-set policy on this. Excirial (Contact me,Contribs) 22:22, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just because a desirable rule is difficult to completely enforce, and requires people to be honorable, doesn't mean that the rule is faulty. The principle is sound. To allow paid editing because people "disclose" is the height of cynicism and will measurably hurt Wikipedia.
- Frankly I'm getting bored with this discussion. If Wikipedia wants to commit hari-kiri it won't interrupt my life. Go to it and have fun. Jay Tepper (talk) 22:41, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Why is "money" special?
Jimbo, I ask in all sincerity: why do you seem to believe that money is somehow more poisonous to the project than other motivations that might cause a person to edit non-neutrally? I really, truly don’t understand why someone who gets $1000 to edit an article is more inclined to violate our policies (WP:NPOV, etc.) than someone who is a “true fan” committed to showing the world how great their favorite team/singer/restaurant, or someone who is absolutely certain that Ethnic group X is better than Ethnic group Y. I don’t understand why we want or need a special policy to deal with one specific form of motivation, when we have a perfectly good set of policies that govern all forms of biased and improper editing behavior. For instance, I think the current insanity at WP:MMA, including strong evidence of off-wiki threats and canvassing, is a much better example of disruptive editing that is damaging Wikipedia than the polite, cooperative editors at WP:WikiProject Cooperation/Paid Editor Help. Heck, I think the debacle that was WP: India Education Project was significantly more disruptive and potentially damaging to Wikipedia (since it results in large scale copyright violations) than paid editing, and that was a WMF directed project. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:56, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- You are positing a competition between two things that are completely different. Apples and oranges. Yes, a person who is a "true fan" (in the negative sense) is a problem. The person of a particular religious (or other) viewpoint who comes to Wikipedia with an axe to grind is someone who has to be dealt with, and we do it every day. A paid advocate is also a problem, but a different problem, as the incentives before them and the motivations are different. It simply isn't the case that "one size fits all" - we should adapt policy and solutions in a way that works, to deal with each problem in the best possible way - false analogies to other problems will mislead.
- The truth is that paid advocacy is significantly deterrable through a thoughtful set of policies that forbids direct article editing and encourages appropriate interaction with the community. There really are ethical communications professionals who understand that I will crucify their clients in the media if they do not do the right thing. And there are those who do NOT get it, and banning them is the fastest and easiest thing to do. It's really quite simple: follow a bright-line rule - no paid advocacy in article space - come to the discussion page.
- Similarly with the India project. Was it a debacle? Yes, of course it was. But that provides no argument for not solving other problems as well. We don't have to choose to EITHER improve projects like that OR deal with the scourge of paid advocates. We must do both.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:41, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- My two cents:
- Payment influences decisions. In a study of the peer-reviewed scientific literature, studies where the author was funded by a drug company were four times more likely to find results favorable to that company than those funded independently.
- Payment does not eliminate meatpuppet prohibitions. If I can't ask my friend to support my views in discussions, I shouldn't be able to pay him to do it.
- It is not compelling to say Y is not a problem, because X, Y, and Z are all problems and we can't do anything about X or Z. If paid editing distracts or detracts from the project, it should be prohibited. Even if there are other things which are harder to deal with, we should not avoid dealing with the easier problems.
- But, of course, I don't speak for Jimbo. --TeaDrinker (talk) 03:22, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Another point against paid editing is you get someone that is a slick practiced expert in dispute resolution that can easily "beat down" the volunteers that are trying to improve the encyclopedia because they like the idea of a free encyclopedia built by volunteers. My view is that paid editing would be a poison that would eventually destroy the original intent of Wikipedia and chase away many volunteers. There are frequently complaints about SPA's pushing their own POV. The SPA's are usually crude violate the rules and end up getting blocked. A paid editor that knows the rules and especially knows how to manipulate the dispute resolution process would be a menace to WP:NPOV. Money is special because it buys time and influence. If it was also allowed to buy Wikipedians with knowledge and experience it would likely destroy Wikipedia or change it into something that I'll guess that most volunteers will not be interested in being part of. Bill Huffman (talk) 05:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- And you don't think this doesn't already occur?
- (ec)Re point 1: Yes, payment influences decisions. So which is better to read a study knowing who funded the study or to read a study not knowing who funded it? I'd like to know that McDonald's paid for that study about the nutrional value of a big mac. By knowing who is being paid, it opens avenues for oversight, that don't exist if we don't know.
- Re point 2: Again, Cla's "advertisement" was to get an article to FA status. I think everybody agrees that being paid to advocate a stance is questionable (but we also know paid editors exist.) The key isn't to bury our heads and pretend that all is well in the world and that paid editing doesn't occur, but rather to regulate/monitor them in an appropriate manner.
- Re point 3: Yes, because prohibition worked so well. The war on drugs worked so well. The situation exists and will continue to exist. Let's deal with it rather than pretend it doesn't happen.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 06:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry Balloonman, but I find your points are missing a major point: $1000 is a laughably small amount of money. Paid editors that get results - control content to the satisfaction of the client - will get paid in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars...easy. You think a civil POV pushing volunteer is a nightmare? Think what one making $80000 a year would be like? ...with five paid co-workers? Game over. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 07:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Additionally, Balloonman, as far as I can tell, you either agree with me, or you are positing a straw man. It is precisely my argument that we need to "eal with it rather than pretend it doesn't happen". The best way I know of to NOT deal with it is to continue to entertain lunatic arguments that it doesn't matter. The best way I know of to deal with it is channel it into appropriate channels (talk pages, primarily) and to be extremely firm that paid advocacy in article space is unwelcome, will not be tolerated. We need to offer a path for paid advocates to deal with us responsibly - allowing them to take over Wikipedia is absolutely not an option... that option would be burying our heads in the sand.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:46, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Bluntly, this already exists, and more or less de-facto permitted for professional photographers who put some of their work on Wikipedia. Why shouldn't similar tolerance be allowed for our writers? I do not ascribe this position to you, but I'm seeing remnants of Avery Brundage's belief in the "gifted amateur" as ideal. His vision did not survive the entry of money into the Olympic movement. Did it harm the Olympics? Well, try finding tickets for this year's Olympics, and athletes no longer have to live in the ghetto until after the games. Frankly, I doubt if there's much money in this—I am reminded of a "The Far Side" cartoon showing classified ads seeking those good at playing arcade games for big money—but I'd be willing to talk to a company offering sponsorship which includes access to databases and resources as well as my expenses. Unfortunately, when requests to the Foundation for resources get little heed or are hijacked, editors turn elsewhere.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Influenced by Pay editing is a poison that, even in small un-noticible doses, will eventually kill any reliablity we now have. We need to improve our trust level with the general public not allow it to continue its slide toward wholesale MIS-trust. ```Buster Seven Talk 12:14, 26 April 2012 (UTC).
- Many editors are influenced in their editing by their nationality and religion. Isn't that a far more serious poison?--Wehwalt (talk) 12:18, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think it's self-evident (that money is "special"), and that it's ridiculous to posit otherwise. Given the indecision and dithering of the so-called "community," I think that it's incumbent on Mr. Wales to show some leadership in this area and personally take action against paid editing. He seems to have the power and he should use it. If he doesn't, this online encyclopedia will be swamped by public relations professionals plying their trade. It already is to some extent. Just look at the articles p.r. people write about themselves. He knows it, and whether others do or don't is beside the point. Jay Tepper (talk) 12:46, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Given time and attention, National and Religiouslly "poisoned" editng become obvious and can be dealt with. Influenced by Pay editing is hidden, unknown, out of sight. Requiring that Paid Operatives self-identify removes the subversive flavor from the mix. The fact that the Communications Director for the Gingrich campaign finally self-identified created a workable collaborative effort in article creation. not perfect, just workable. At the very least, concerned editors could be alert for biased and slanted editing that only favored the candidate. WP is a major site for information dispersal. From now on, EVERY campaign for Major political offices will have a person, or a room of persons, whose job it will be to orchestrate what exists, or doesnt exist, in the Campaign article. Our readers need to be aware of that fact. ```Buster Seven Talk 13:03, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- You can also place a permanent tag on articles to which paid editors have contributed, saying prominently "This article has been editors by persons paid by the subject of the article." Then you'd have two classes of articles, but the reader would receive disclosure. A better idea is to simply ban paid editing. Jay Tepper (talk) 13:25, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Given time and attention, National and Religiouslly "poisoned" editng become obvious and can be dealt with. Influenced by Pay editing is hidden, unknown, out of sight. Requiring that Paid Operatives self-identify removes the subversive flavor from the mix. The fact that the Communications Director for the Gingrich campaign finally self-identified created a workable collaborative effort in article creation. not perfect, just workable. At the very least, concerned editors could be alert for biased and slanted editing that only favored the candidate. WP is a major site for information dispersal. From now on, EVERY campaign for Major political offices will have a person, or a room of persons, whose job it will be to orchestrate what exists, or doesnt exist, in the Campaign article. Our readers need to be aware of that fact. ```Buster Seven Talk 13:03, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think it's self-evident (that money is "special"), and that it's ridiculous to posit otherwise. Given the indecision and dithering of the so-called "community," I think that it's incumbent on Mr. Wales to show some leadership in this area and personally take action against paid editing. He seems to have the power and he should use it. If he doesn't, this online encyclopedia will be swamped by public relations professionals plying their trade. It already is to some extent. Just look at the articles p.r. people write about themselves. He knows it, and whether others do or don't is beside the point. Jay Tepper (talk) 12:46, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Many editors are influenced in their editing by their nationality and religion. Isn't that a far more serious poison?--Wehwalt (talk) 12:18, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Influenced by Pay editing is a poison that, even in small un-noticible doses, will eventually kill any reliablity we now have. We need to improve our trust level with the general public not allow it to continue its slide toward wholesale MIS-trust. ```Buster Seven Talk 12:14, 26 April 2012 (UTC).
- Bluntly, this already exists, and more or less de-facto permitted for professional photographers who put some of their work on Wikipedia. Why shouldn't similar tolerance be allowed for our writers? I do not ascribe this position to you, but I'm seeing remnants of Avery Brundage's belief in the "gifted amateur" as ideal. His vision did not survive the entry of money into the Olympic movement. Did it harm the Olympics? Well, try finding tickets for this year's Olympics, and athletes no longer have to live in the ghetto until after the games. Frankly, I doubt if there's much money in this—I am reminded of a "The Far Side" cartoon showing classified ads seeking those good at playing arcade games for big money—but I'd be willing to talk to a company offering sponsorship which includes access to databases and resources as well as my expenses. Unfortunately, when requests to the Foundation for resources get little heed or are hijacked, editors turn elsewhere.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:01, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Additionally, Balloonman, as far as I can tell, you either agree with me, or you are positing a straw man. It is precisely my argument that we need to "eal with it rather than pretend it doesn't happen". The best way I know of to NOT deal with it is to continue to entertain lunatic arguments that it doesn't matter. The best way I know of to deal with it is channel it into appropriate channels (talk pages, primarily) and to be extremely firm that paid advocacy in article space is unwelcome, will not be tolerated. We need to offer a path for paid advocates to deal with us responsibly - allowing them to take over Wikipedia is absolutely not an option... that option would be burying our heads in the sand.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:46, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry Balloonman, but I find your points are missing a major point: $1000 is a laughably small amount of money. Paid editors that get results - control content to the satisfaction of the client - will get paid in the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars...easy. You think a civil POV pushing volunteer is a nightmare? Think what one making $80000 a year would be like? ...with five paid co-workers? Game over. —ArtifexMayhem (talk) 07:50, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Another point against paid editing is you get someone that is a slick practiced expert in dispute resolution that can easily "beat down" the volunteers that are trying to improve the encyclopedia because they like the idea of a free encyclopedia built by volunteers. My view is that paid editing would be a poison that would eventually destroy the original intent of Wikipedia and chase away many volunteers. There are frequently complaints about SPA's pushing their own POV. The SPA's are usually crude violate the rules and end up getting blocked. A paid editor that knows the rules and especially knows how to manipulate the dispute resolution process would be a menace to WP:NPOV. Money is special because it buys time and influence. If it was also allowed to buy Wikipedians with knowledge and experience it would likely destroy Wikipedia or change it into something that I'll guess that most volunteers will not be interested in being part of. Bill Huffman (talk) 05:58, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Of course money is special. It creates a culture where money becomes the end and everything else is just the means. And, you may not realize this, but a wikipedia page has a great deal of financial value because it is the first place people go looking for information. A small consulting firm, a university professor looking for consulting, small businesses, none notable in their own right would all love to have a nice wikipedia article of their own. Preferably with negative information left out. Tourist departments would be happy to pay to have their latest sites featured on wikipedia. A few dollars to reorder a list, what's the harm in that? Many dollars to add the sentence "access to the island from Liberty State Park is easier", no problem. On the flip side, editors would have an incentive to overlook that negative information being left out, the lack of notability, the reordering of lists or information, because they too would be pushing their own pet paid businesses and who wants to rock the boat. That's what happens all the time in the business world. And, the unpaid editors who are left would either be demotivated (thought experiment: How likely would you be to work for free in an environment where many people are getting paid for the same work?), or swamped. It's hard enough dealing with nationalist pov pushers but money is entirely a different ball game. --regentspark (comment) 13:33, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree wholeheartedly. You've raised a number of good points, especially about the demoralizing effect on unpaid editors. This issue is vital to Wikipedia, and its amazing to me that so many editors seem blithely unaware of the corrosive effects of allowing openly paid editors. Many focus instead on disclosure as a panacea. That may help from an internal Wikipedia standpoint, but it affords no advantage whatever to the millions of casual readers who would have no idea that an article they are reading may or may not be a direct product of a public relations professional. It amazes me the extent to which so many members of the "community" have their heads wedged up their posteriors on conflicts of interest and public relations poisoning of Wikipedia. Jay Tepper (talk) 13:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- And notice that there is a very simple and clean way to resolve this all ethically and practically - disclosure and engaging solely on the talk pages, noticeboards, wikiprojects, etc. If you can write good quality text that is actually neutral, and offer it up on the talk page, there is no need whatsoever to go to editing the article space directly. This is a simple plan that resolves all the serious concerns quite neatly. I have never seen a single valid argument against it. (Almost none of the paid advocates ever even try to engage this argument directly, instead throwing up a lot of obfuscation and presenting my position in a straw-man way.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- That makes sense. I agree that we can't keep paid editing out, the wikipedia product is too valuable for that and money always finds a way in. Restricting paid editors to talk pages would help by creating a moat around article space. Moats don't always keep marauders out, but they do act as a deterrent. We also need a policy that bans editors from being paid for anything other than writing text. For example, we don't want editors being paid to !vote on deletion, move or FA discussions. --regentspark (comment) 14:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Actually that issue has been addressed, Jimbo, several times. The problem there is that talk pages can often be low traffic - so all your suggestions could easily sit there for days/weeks/months/years without any attention. To get the advocates to agree to that wholly logical approach requires us to improve our reaction to contributions of that sort as well. And I think we have to make the first move, it being our house. This whole paid advocacy problem has been mishandled from the get go - with us sat here going "go to the talk page, you underhand advocate!" and them going "stop printing lies, naughty Wikipedia!". It's a lot like an echo chamber - having conversed with both sides.. you're all as bad as each other. --Errant (chat!) 14:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- That makes sense. I agree that we can't keep paid editing out, the wikipedia product is too valuable for that and money always finds a way in. Restricting paid editors to talk pages would help by creating a moat around article space. Moats don't always keep marauders out, but they do act as a deterrent. We also need a policy that bans editors from being paid for anything other than writing text. For example, we don't want editors being paid to !vote on deletion, move or FA discussions. --regentspark (comment) 14:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- And notice that there is a very simple and clean way to resolve this all ethically and practically - disclosure and engaging solely on the talk pages, noticeboards, wikiprojects, etc. If you can write good quality text that is actually neutral, and offer it up on the talk page, there is no need whatsoever to go to editing the article space directly. This is a simple plan that resolves all the serious concerns quite neatly. I have never seen a single valid argument against it. (Almost none of the paid advocates ever even try to engage this argument directly, instead throwing up a lot of obfuscation and presenting my position in a straw-man way.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Why is money special? That's easy to answer. Think about the situation where Company X is paying Cla68 $1000 to write a FA about Company X. Company X has made some good products and has done some good things, but they also once made a malfunctioning product that seriously injured someone. The incident wasn't headline news, but it did get reported in several newspapers around the world. As the article gets closer to FA, another editor joins in and writes a short section about the malfunctioning product incident. Company X calls up Cla68 and says, "What is this bullshit? We're paying you $1000 to write an article about us, and you include information that makes us look bad? You better take that out or we're not paying you a dime!" Cla68 tries to explain that he didn't include it in the article, some other editor did. But, Company X doesn't care, they want it out of the article or no payday.
- Now Cla68 is faced with a (quite plausible) dilemma. Protect the neutrality of the article and get paid nothing for all the work he put into it, or try to appease Company X by arguing for the removal of the section about the incident. Which do you think he would do? What would you do in this situation? What if the payment for writing the article was $10,000? $50,000? Where is your limit? How much would you have to be paid to bend the rules and write something that's not entirely neutral?
- Radix malorum est cupiditas. Allowing payment for writing an article (especially if it's about the organization who is paying you, which in most cases, it will be) gives some measure of control to that organization, unless they are forced to pay up front (to which I highly doubt any intelligent person would agree). This invites non-neutrality. We're better off not allowing it. But, back to the topic at hand, which is not whether we should allow paid editing, but whether we should allow editors to advertise their paid editing services on their user page. I think this is a clear cut "No", and if WP:UP needs to be updated to state this clearly, then so be it. ‑Scottywong| comment _ 14:07, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Also, one argument against it might be this. If other editors know, or get to know, that a talk page proposal has been paid for, won't there simply be a battle between those who wish to add it because it's fair (plus those who wish to add it because they have been paid to write it and/or wish to promote the principle of paid editing) and those who wish to keep it out simply because it has been paid for. Or would it be forbidden to show that a proposal had been paid for? Or perhaps Admins would know, but not ordinary editors? How would that particlar battle ground be policed? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:59, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Jimbo, I largely agree with your position on paid editing, but I take issue with how you have responded to Cla68's action. You state that we must "be extremely firm that paid advocacy in article space is unwelcome, will not be tolerated" but the truth is that no firm stance has been taken and paid editors have not only been tolerated but, of late, aided and abetted. This issue has been building for years now and the community has been unwilling to have serious discussion about it. Or set any firm rules or guidelines. I was only too happy to point out paid editors to those who claimed they would block on sight (including yourself and a former ArmCom member) yet no blocks ever happened. Meanwhile, advocates of paid editing first subverted the proposed guidelines, then formed welcoming committees. It is far too late to pretend that Cla68 is responsible for the current ruckus. His provocation was only possible thanks to years of studied inattention. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- That's not 100% true... 3 years ago [1], a person with several "prestigious" hats on wikipedia was stripped of all his hats and had an account blocked for paid editing. But beyond that, you are correct. The concern has been more centered around COI and and preserving proper weighting/balance/neutrality. I'd rather know who the paid editors are so they could be better monitored and if they can't/don't write in an objective/neutral manner, then we can address those situations better. If Editor X is hired by 3M to take the 3M article to FA status, wouldn't it be advantageous to know that Editor X is paid by 3M? It would bring down additional scrutiny. Also, if we know that Editor X is a paid editor, then violations of UNDUE/POV/ETC become easier to prove and officiate. There is a distinct difference between Paid-Editor X working on a controversial article and putting in POV edits and non-paid editor Y putting in the same edits. My tolerance for the paid editor is going to be a lot less. Thus, I want to know who the paid contributors are.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 15:23, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I was referring specifically to the paid editors that I had identified. Of those, I believe some did end up getting blocked for sockpuppetry, but not for paid editing. In the case that you cite, Nichalp was not blocked. Their alternate account was and they were stripped of their privileges because they failed to respond to ArbCom's emails. We could read between the lines, but those are the facts as presented. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:53, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Just because you're unaware of it (paid editing), doesn't mean it isn't happening. And just because someone doesn't advertise their services, doesn't mean those services aren't available. In this case, ignorance is not bliss, and if it is expressly prohibited, then the only thing we incentivize is that ignorance, when the correct incentives belong with quality material.ℱorƬheℒoveofℬacon ✉ • ✍ 21:47, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Ironic side note
Having watched the ongoing RfC on Images in Mohammed, I have to ask where all the editors are that simply chimed in, "NOT CENSORED?" No seriously? This is a complete aside from the Paid Editing debate, but rather an illuminating point on my problem with WP:NOTCENSORED. We have people here, including Jimbo, who want to ban (e.g. censor) paid editors and nobody has cried NOT CENSORED. I bring this is up not because I want to use it as an argument in favor of paid editing, but rather because I find the use of "NOT CENSORED" as a position to be devoid of value. NOT CENSORED, while a fine ideal, is a weak argument in and of itself. It's a find starting point, but it should never be used to dispell reasoned arguments for the inclusion/exclusion/movement of materials.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 14:27, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- If that's your strongest argument for allowing paid editors, then I'd suggest that you have no argument whatsoever. Jay Tepper (talk) 14:33, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Balloonman, do note that Jimbo has not said we should ban paid editors. Rather, we need to manage them. See his comments on how paid editing can work above. --regentspark (comment) 14:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure he did. John Vandenberg (chat) 15:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- That's not what he's saying now. [2] --regentspark (comment) 15:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- it is a bannable offense if they do and banning them is the fastest and easiest thing to do. It's really quite simple: follow a bright-line rule - no paid advocacy in article space are from today.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 15:45, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Jimbo is clearly distinguishing between paid editors and paid advocates. The l;atter should be banned the former not. I agree with that.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:42, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- And I'm opposed to paid advocacy as well... but where do we draw the line? How do we draw the line if we equate paid editing with paid advocacy? In order to have a disctinction, we need to draw a distinction and we need to make it so that paid editors can be identified. That way we can start to tell if that person who is a little too persistent on including a specific fact is doing so because they are a paid advocate or just stubborn. Identifying the motives is the first step.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 17:43, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- And where is the distinction between paid editor and paid advocate defined? If it isnt defined, they are the same thing, and the atmosphere will be unfriendly to newbies who will run into this constantly. Some admins will block, others will unblock, and it will go to Arbcom – mark my words. Newbies will be forced watch public debates about whether they are paid editing or paid advocates. At the WMAU/SLQ training workshops last week, many of the participants wrote articles which they have a COI with. e.g. Pinnacles Gallery. All openly declared; some participants even started with usernames which broke the username policy. Some of these participants and articles were what I would consider to be advocacy. No worries; easily fixed by editing according to content policies. John Vandenberg (chat) 22:36, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Jimbo is clearly distinguishing between paid editors and paid advocates. The l;atter should be banned the former not. I agree with that.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:42, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Balloonman, banning paid editors in article space while allowing them to use the talk page for advocating their points of view or suggesting the text they would like to see in the article is hardly the same thing as censorship or even banning them outright from wikipedia. I think Jimbo's proposal is a reasonable starting point on how to deal with paid editors so that they have a voice but the downside is minimized. --regentspark (comment) 16:13, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- it is a bannable offense if they do and banning them is the fastest and easiest thing to do. It's really quite simple: follow a bright-line rule - no paid advocacy in article space are from today.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 15:45, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- That's not what he's saying now. [2] --regentspark (comment) 15:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure he did. John Vandenberg (chat) 15:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Balloonman, do note that Jimbo has not said we should ban paid editors. Rather, we need to manage them. See his comments on how paid editing can work above. --regentspark (comment) 14:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Jay, did you read my post? No it is not "my strongest argument" in favor of paid editing---in fact, I explicitly state that This is a complete aside from the Paid Editing debate. In fact, I consider NOT CENSORED to be a worthless argument when it is simply presented by itself. YET whenever we have debates of IMAGES on Mohammed or a nude in the lead of the pregnancy article or what have you, slews of people come out chiming in "NOT CENSORED" without regard for why the issue is being raised or whether or not the question being raised has merit. IMHO, NOT CENSORED is a meaningless platatude on its own... and I think this debate is showing how pathetic that phrase is. So, Jay, in reality, I agree 100%. If "NOT CENSORED" is the "strongest argument" for any issue, the "I'd suggest [whomever uses it has] no argument whatsoever."---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 15:08, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think that our opposition to censorship is very important and relevant - it's the reason why we're having this debate; indeed, it's the reason why we're allowed to have this debate instead of just having Jimbo settle the point five years ago and move on. This is the boat and "NOTCENSORED" is the ocean. Nonetheless, we have not in the past extended this principle to advertising businesses on user pages or introducing POV in certain ways, as there are other important pillars we're trying to uphold at the same time. Wnt (talk) 15:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Opposition to censorship is important, but this whole argument belies the notion that simply citing "NOTCENSORED" is sufficeint in and of itself. Censorship occurs on Wikipedia... UNDUE/NPOV/RS/V/etc. The question is why? If the entirety of one's argument is NOT CENSORED, which we often see in various debates, then I contend that it often is not sufficeint---especially when rationale reasons have been presented for moving/removing/editing etc.---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 17:43, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think that our opposition to censorship is very important and relevant - it's the reason why we're having this debate; indeed, it's the reason why we're allowed to have this debate instead of just having Jimbo settle the point five years ago and move on. This is the boat and "NOTCENSORED" is the ocean. Nonetheless, we have not in the past extended this principle to advertising businesses on user pages or introducing POV in certain ways, as there are other important pillars we're trying to uphold at the same time. Wnt (talk) 15:52, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Jay, did you read my post? No it is not "my strongest argument" in favor of paid editing---in fact, I explicitly state that This is a complete aside from the Paid Editing debate. In fact, I consider NOT CENSORED to be a worthless argument when it is simply presented by itself. YET whenever we have debates of IMAGES on Mohammed or a nude in the lead of the pregnancy article or what have you, slews of people come out chiming in "NOT CENSORED" without regard for why the issue is being raised or whether or not the question being raised has merit. IMHO, NOT CENSORED is a meaningless platatude on its own... and I think this debate is showing how pathetic that phrase is. So, Jay, in reality, I agree 100%. If "NOT CENSORED" is the "strongest argument" for any issue, the "I'd suggest [whomever uses it has] no argument whatsoever."---Balloonman Poppa Balloon 15:08, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Paid editing vs. rewarded editing
First I wish to make clear that I am not an advocate of paid editing. I think there are a lot of areas of WP that currently rely on volunteer activity alone could profit from paid advocacy (such as WikiProject management, crosswiki bot maintenance, recruiting and retention programs, image.article improvement, copyright enforcement, etc.) but I think that in the case of article developement its best left to volunteers. To allow editing of articles for profit puts us on a slippery slope that would undoubtedly only get worse over time and would encourage users to demand payment for their services rather than voluneer.
With that said I do believe that the problem exists and there are likely more editors writing for profit than any of us know and we should try and bring those to light as much as possible. I think if its determined that paid editing should be allowed in some form we could draft some policies that limit this activity to certain areas or with controls in place that force them into the light more. It is my opinion that there are some "professional" organizations that, if we allowed them, would follow any rules we put in place to be allowed to edit. I also think that if an article is promoted in this way it should be visible on the article (possibly the talk page) and the article be ineligible for display on the main page.
I also want to clarify how I perceive the difference (and I could be wildly wrong here I admit) between paid editing and rewarded editing before its made into an issue. There are several programs in place by the organization such as students editing for classes that one could argue are merely paid editing in disguise because the individual is still "profiting" from the editing. I agree these editors are "rewarded" for their efforts in the form of degrees or even status, we hand out barnstars and things as rewards and we promote editors in wiki status by bestowing upon them additional rights such as administrator, beaurocrat, arbitrator, etc. but although these "rewards" help the wiki, improve morale and encourage a little good spirited competition in some cases no one is getting "paid". I think there are a lot of ways that editors, businesses and those interested in improving articles could be rewarded without stooping to the level of paying an editor to get their article promoted. For example, I do not think it would be wrong if "WP" accepted a sum to improve articles on a given topic (Call it a bounty or whatever even if the individual or might somehow be improved by it) as long as the sum is not directly attributed to that topic. Kumioko (talk) 17:05, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Valid point, but it still relegates articles and editors deemed professionals to second-class status. No one settles for being tolerated when equality should be on the table. What you are doing is adding an asterisk to achievement. That would not be acceptable. And I would not be amenable to WMF getting money for my editing.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:27, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- "relegates"? That's not a neutral term. I'd say the old, "We already established that; now we're just haggling about price" principle applies. If you're doing this for money for anybody but the Wikimedia movement itself, you're a pro; by definition you've forfeited any credible claim to lack of COI or (in my view) NPOV; and of course you have no place acting as an admin or in any other administrative capacity. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:42, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it does and should mean relegating paid editors to non-editing status. That is correct. Jay Tepper (talk) 17:55, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- "relegates"? That's not a neutral term. I'd say the old, "We already established that; now we're just haggling about price" principle applies. If you're doing this for money for anybody but the Wikimedia movement itself, you're a pro; by definition you've forfeited any credible claim to lack of COI or (in my view) NPOV; and of course you have no place acting as an admin or in any other administrative capacity. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:42, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think following COI guidelines makes us second class citizens any more than a volunteer editor who does the same for different COI reasons. Only when Civility and AGF are broken do we become so mistreated. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 21:10, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Paid editing versus paid advocacy
I want to emphasize a point that Jimbo made earlier: the problem is not really paid editing, it is paid advocacy, and we must be careful to recognize the difference. For example, the US National Institutes of Health sometimes awards grant money for community outreach, and one type of outreach it has funded is addition of material to Wikipedia. The people receiving those funds are doing paid editing, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that -- this approach ought to be encouraged rather than discouraged. Whatever we do, we need to keep this distinction in mind. Looie496 (talk) 17:46, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- No, the problem is paid editing not paid "advocacy," whatever that means. It means paying somebody to edit Wikipedia for the purpose of placing or removing specific content from the encyclopedia. That's all it means. Jay Tepper (talk) 17:54, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't think the problem is being paid - whether you are paid to advocate or paid to just write. The problem is whether or not your interests in editing Wikipedia are in conflict with the interests of Wikipedia as a whole. I've been looking at articles written by paid (freelance) editors over the last few weeks, and the problems that stand out are occasionally related to advocacy, which is a problem, but equally I find copyright violations, spam, falsified references, the creation of articles about non-notable subjects, and deliberate misrepresentations of the editor's relationship with the subject when questions are raised about the articles. (Not all those problems are equally serious, of course, but copyvio and falsified references I hold at least on a par with POV editing). At the same time, there are also cases where the interests of WP and those of the author haven't been in conflict, and the results have been good, solid encyclopedic articles in spite of money being involved. I wish there was a neat fix, and some nice way to distinguish between them, but it is a messy problem. - Bilby (talk) 18:12, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- This is one instance where the community is divided against itself. Jimbo has been on record against paid advocacy on any number of occasions, and has confined his efforts to dealing with inappropriate attempts to influence content against our existing policies. But the battle lines are drawn between those who advocate "anything goes, as long as our policies are followed" and "paid editing of any sort inherently corrupts Wikipedia". Either of these extreme positions is unlikely to ever achieve consensus, but the loudest voices in the argument are those on the fringes. Jclemens (talk) 18:48, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't think the problem is being paid - whether you are paid to advocate or paid to just write. The problem is whether or not your interests in editing Wikipedia are in conflict with the interests of Wikipedia as a whole. I've been looking at articles written by paid (freelance) editors over the last few weeks, and the problems that stand out are occasionally related to advocacy, which is a problem, but equally I find copyright violations, spam, falsified references, the creation of articles about non-notable subjects, and deliberate misrepresentations of the editor's relationship with the subject when questions are raised about the articles. (Not all those problems are equally serious, of course, but copyvio and falsified references I hold at least on a par with POV editing). At the same time, there are also cases where the interests of WP and those of the author haven't been in conflict, and the results have been good, solid encyclopedic articles in spite of money being involved. I wish there was a neat fix, and some nice way to distinguish between them, but it is a messy problem. - Bilby (talk) 18:12, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- All paid editing is advocacy of some sort, for some reason. Wikimedians-in-Residence are merely engaging people well versed in policy in order that the advocacy is kept within acceptable levels. Even non-profits have objectives, and they are required by law to ensure all their activities work towards those goals. As far as I know, there are no Wikimedia chapters that have "build Wikipedia content" as one of their objectives. John Vandenberg (chat) 22:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- From Wikimedia UK Constitution: "We exist to help collect, develop and distribute freely licensed knowledge (and other educational, cultural and historic content) ..." – arguably that would encompass "build Wikipedia content" with much of a stretch of the imagination. The problem we're faced with here is not so much editors receiving remuneration whilst editing, but outside interests paying to buy undue influence in given articles. The former may be unproblematic in some circumstances; the latter is always going to be anathema to the spirit of our project. --RexxS (talk) 01:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- John, saying "all paid editing is advocacy of some sort" isn't really helpful either. It's entirely possible for an entity to pick an editor and say "Keep doing what you're doing. No strings, here's a few bucks to reward your contribution to knowledge". Which, I suppose, would be advocacy for Wikipedia's own core principles. If you get to that point, I think that "advocacy" has been watered down to meaninglessness. Paid advocacy, at least as I use the term, means being an agent for some entity, to do their bidding and improperly influence Wikipedia processes. Further complicating the picture is that there is all sorts of other advocacy going on throughout Wikipedia--you and I have both seen it in terms of cases before the arbitration committee, but I suspect we both understand that those are the tip of the iceberg. Paid or unpaid, there are tons of editors who are not interested in NPOV, and I have yet to see how money is a fundamentally different motivator than nationalism, ethnic pride, or religion. Jclemens (talk) 01:51, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- It is different because money = time. If i were paid to advocate in favor of X topic I would be able to dedicate more time to it than if i weren't and consequently I'd be a couple of steps ahead of the volunteers trying to keep wikipedia neutral. if i was just advocating my own point of view I could be expected to dedicate the same amount of efforts as the volunteers trying to neutralize it.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:03, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- What I'm finding, in many cases, is the opposite. If you are paid $100 to write an article, it seems many people will want to do the minimum amount of work to earn that in order to make it cost-effective. And that means not looking into WP's policies, not researching the topic in any depth, copying the client's text without modification or directly from their website, and not finding references that properly support the text. (Again, I should clarify that sometimes they do it properly as well). This isn't the case with a full-time PR person working on an article, but it is interesting that we have the two extremes - someone paid to spend a lot of time looking after the company's WP profile, and someone paid to get it on to WP only. - Bilby (talk) 02:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- but that is exactly the difference between advocacy and editing. If i were paid to put in a specific phrase in favor of X viewpoint then I could do so sloppily (most advocates also edit sloppily, edit warring to insert POV material etc. but some adept advocates (WP:CPUSH) of course know how to use the processes in their favor) - but if i was simply paid to do good editing like I usually do then I could make the effort.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:26, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- True. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the paid editing vs paid advocacy distinction is complex and somewhat artificial. Problems and benefits sit on both sides, but they tend to be different problems and benefits. The more I look at the problem, the more complex it seems to get. - Bilby (talk) 02:33, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- but that is exactly the difference between advocacy and editing. If i were paid to put in a specific phrase in favor of X viewpoint then I could do so sloppily (most advocates also edit sloppily, edit warring to insert POV material etc. but some adept advocates (WP:CPUSH) of course know how to use the processes in their favor) - but if i was simply paid to do good editing like I usually do then I could make the effort.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:26, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- So yes, money can buy time. But I challenge you to look into some of the religious, ethnic, or nationalistic issues that have cropped up on Wikipedia and articulate how anyone being a paid advocate could have made any of them worse than they already were. That is, the editors involved have already made time, based on their own values system, and paying them to do anything at all would be likely to reduce their intransigence and fervency. Jclemens (talk) 02:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- What I'm finding, in many cases, is the opposite. If you are paid $100 to write an article, it seems many people will want to do the minimum amount of work to earn that in order to make it cost-effective. And that means not looking into WP's policies, not researching the topic in any depth, copying the client's text without modification or directly from their website, and not finding references that properly support the text. (Again, I should clarify that sometimes they do it properly as well). This isn't the case with a full-time PR person working on an article, but it is interesting that we have the two extremes - someone paid to spend a lot of time looking after the company's WP profile, and someone paid to get it on to WP only. - Bilby (talk) 02:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- It is different because money = time. If i were paid to advocate in favor of X topic I would be able to dedicate more time to it than if i weren't and consequently I'd be a couple of steps ahead of the volunteers trying to keep wikipedia neutral. if i was just advocating my own point of view I could be expected to dedicate the same amount of efforts as the volunteers trying to neutralize it.·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:03, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- John, saying "all paid editing is advocacy of some sort" isn't really helpful either. It's entirely possible for an entity to pick an editor and say "Keep doing what you're doing. No strings, here's a few bucks to reward your contribution to knowledge". Which, I suppose, would be advocacy for Wikipedia's own core principles. If you get to that point, I think that "advocacy" has been watered down to meaninglessness. Paid advocacy, at least as I use the term, means being an agent for some entity, to do their bidding and improperly influence Wikipedia processes. Further complicating the picture is that there is all sorts of other advocacy going on throughout Wikipedia--you and I have both seen it in terms of cases before the arbitration committee, but I suspect we both understand that those are the tip of the iceberg. Paid or unpaid, there are tons of editors who are not interested in NPOV, and I have yet to see how money is a fundamentally different motivator than nationalism, ethnic pride, or religion. Jclemens (talk) 01:51, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
I'm curious why Jimbo is always portrayed as being "against" paid editing. I have only seen him advocate for the Bright Line, which in itself seems to imply he's not oppose to paid editing. Meanwhile he's been supportive of Joe Desantos, who has followed the bright line. In response to my blog post, which described treating Wikipedia like a PR person would any independent news and information source, he said he agreed with my approach. Maybe I'm missing something? It seems to me that he supports paid editing, so long as we follow a single basic rule. Yet in an effort to change his mind, he's constantly portrayed as having an extreme point of view that's different than his actual statements or behavior. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 21:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Probably because in the past he's made statements that all paid editors, once identified, should be banned. That's the extreme camp that he is considered to be in. SilverserenC 21:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Taking notice that there are technically a half-dozen exceptions to the Bright Line such as non-controversial edits, blatant defamation, etc. (Jimbo may disagree) I have a difficult time finding a sensible argument against it. It isn't that different from what the COI guideline already encourages. Wikipedia will have better content, a happier community and more credibility because of it.
- Eclipsed and I - both paid editors - support it. And why wouldn't we? There is no situation where it actually prevents a marketing professional from improving an article with confidence that they are doing right by Wikipedia. There are dozens of situations where it provides more confidence/credibility, less potential issues or conflicts, and so on. I realize what Jimbo said years ago, but that was a long time ago. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 23:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- May I suggest that you use more caution when declaring the support of other editors. In this case, for me only, it would be more accurate to say that I support any editor who wishes to follow the Bright Line. It would also be more accurate to say that I am a freelance editor that sometimes works for payment, and sometimes works for free. Please be more careful with your wordings. Thanks. -- Eclipsed (talk) (COI Declaration) 10:10, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. Apologies for over-reaching. User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 03:11, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see why we shouldn't just go with the current practice of don't edit directly, unless you're making a Non controversial edit. That's the current practice and it's fine. SilverserenC 19:14, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm... I have to imagine that Jimbo doesn't have an issue with fixing apostrophe's with a COI, but rather how such a message could be construed. The moment he mentions exceptions to the bright line, a crow bar will be taken to that crack, and we go down a rabit hole of defining those exceptions. In practice I'm confident he has better things to do than police paid editors for grammar. :-D User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 06:07, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- rabbit hole ;) -- Eclipsed (talk) (COI Declaration) 11:05, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm... I have to imagine that Jimbo doesn't have an issue with fixing apostrophe's with a COI, but rather how such a message could be construed. The moment he mentions exceptions to the bright line, a crow bar will be taken to that crack, and we go down a rabit hole of defining those exceptions. In practice I'm confident he has better things to do than police paid editors for grammar. :-D User:King4057 (COI Disclosure on User Page) 06:07, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
WP:RfC/COI
Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/COI. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 19:18, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Request for comments
FYI - For those of you involved in the discussion above, I have started a request for comments on the issue. If you're interested in contributing, please see Wikipedia talk:User pages#Request for comment - Advertising on user pages. Thanks. ‑Scottywong| express _ 20:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
Paid editing should pay its way
I suggest that if there is to be paid editing, these editors should be registered as paid editors and contribute a % levy to Wikipedia to pay for costs incured in providing them with the means of earning an income. Unregistered paid editors if found out could be banned. This levy would be additional to the regular fundraising efforts and could help with technology costs. SkyMachine (++) 23:00, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
- That sounds like a form of extortion and flies in the face of our logo there on the top left of your page that reads "The Free Encyclopedia". SilverserenC 05:32, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Good luck on that one, SkyMachine! When the Foundation does a better job getting editors resources, we'll talk taxes, OK?--Wehwalt (talk) 05:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Relies on ethical practise of professional paid editors doing the right thing and self reporting earned income. It is only fair that if they hunt fat geese on the King's commons that they pay tribute to the King to maintain the commons. SkyMachine (++) 05:58, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- If we don't charge people for using our content, it seems pretty small of us to charge people for generating it.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Strictly speaking it would be the person or corporation who pays the paid editor for their services that is charged the levy by Wikipedia. They can not complain about being charged because they are already paying for what they have deamed as a useful commercial service. They could always do it themselves for free. SkyMachine (++) 06:14, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- If we don't charge people for using our content, it seems pretty small of us to charge people for generating it.--Wehwalt (talk) 06:04, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Relies on ethical practise of professional paid editors doing the right thing and self reporting earned income. It is only fair that if they hunt fat geese on the King's commons that they pay tribute to the King to maintain the commons. SkyMachine (++) 05:58, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Good luck on that one, SkyMachine! When the Foundation does a better job getting editors resources, we'll talk taxes, OK?--Wehwalt (talk) 05:40, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Well I'm an atheist but I'll quote a bit in the gospels about this I think describes my feelings about the idea. ""Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also". I think it is a very bad idea. Dmcq (talk) 08:53, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sure if we looked at some Scientology or Confucian text it would lend some mumbo jumbo wisdom support to the side of my idea too. If the tax idea is giving you the skeevies then how about some community expectation to oblige paid editors to make a public disclosure of having made some (voluntary) donation in proportion to the proceeds they have skimmed from their work. SkyMachine (++) 09:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Do not bind the mouths of the kine that treadth the grain. And there is not a word in there about rendering unto Jimbo.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- SkyMachine, then charge a levy to anyone who reproduces the content of a WMF project. Same thing. Tony (talk) 11:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia has less control over end user consumption. Editors with accounts are subject to community scrutiny, and are expected to abide by the rules set by the community. SkyMachine (++) 21:33, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- SkyMachine, then charge a levy to anyone who reproduces the content of a WMF project. Same thing. Tony (talk) 11:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Do not bind the mouths of the kine that treadth the grain. And there is not a word in there about rendering unto Jimbo.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:39, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sure if we looked at some Scientology or Confucian text it would lend some mumbo jumbo wisdom support to the side of my idea too. If the tax idea is giving you the skeevies then how about some community expectation to oblige paid editors to make a public disclosure of having made some (voluntary) donation in proportion to the proceeds they have skimmed from their work. SkyMachine (++) 09:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Paid editing as a version of BLP
It seems to me that paid editing is often very similar to when a BLP subject tries editing their own biography. In one case, someone edits an article about themself. In another case, you have a company basically doing the same thing, but companies don't act on their own, they act by paying employees to do it. Someone who is paid by X can be biased in favor of X, but no more than someone who *is* X can be biased in favor of X.
And for BLP subjects, we discourage editing, but we don't prohibit it. We recognize that categorically prohibiting someone from editing their own article is a bad idea even if it can often lead to problems, so we allow them to make straightforward changes and remove unsourced information. We don't ban people just for editing their own article, nor do we say "when can you edit your own article? NEVER!" And we don't *automatically* assume that someone editing their own article must be up to no good unless we can point to a specific policy that they have violated other than just the one about editing your own article.
Also, companies pay people to edit articles about themselves for similar reasons to why individuals directly edit articles about themselves. They may be trying to promote themselves or make themselves look good--but they may also be concerned about misinformation, or that the article was written by someone who hates them and thus has undue weight problems.
This is why I can't completely oppose paid editing of your own company's article. Like editing your BLP, it's often bad, but also like editing your BLP, it's often necessary, and it's the most necessary when Wikipedia has already failed the subject. If anything, paid editing is more necessary than editing your own BLP because there are special BLP rules that are meant to prevent bad BLPs, while this safety net is absent for articles about companies. Ken Arromdee (talk) 04:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. SilverserenC 05:34, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with Ken. I sometimes think we are treating PR professionals like pedophiles, as that is literally the only other category of people whom we tell that they must not edit Wikipedia in their own interest. Everyone else is welcome. That does an injustice to the PR profession. We are treating them like lepers, and I am sometimes at a loss to explain just where this quite extraordinary level of hostility stems from.
- Now I understand that PR professionals have made atrocious edits; but frankly so have people disliking individuals and companies. I understand that Wikipedia's reputation is on the line; but Wikipedia's reputation should be as much on the line when someone writes a hatchet job about a company as it is when someone abuses Wikipedia for advertising and/or whitewashing. I see no indication that that is the case. An article can be an outright hatchet job, containing poorly sourced, unsourced, undue, unfair, or even outright defamatory material: yet when a PR professional deletes any part of it, all that the press will report is that "A PR company deleted negative material". They will not report that the Wikipedia article was grossly unfair to begin with. My personal preference – see #Proposal:_Write_a_policy_for_company_articles below – is to have a clear policy on Company articles, and that self-identified PR staff, who give their real names on their user page, along with their employer, company position and any companies and individuals whose PR they or their employer handle,
- should be allowed to make certain well-circumscribed edits in articles for their company or its clients, such as correcting a typo or updating the name of the CEO (but I won't insist on this).
- should be allowed, like any other editor, to participate as ordinary Wikipedians at discussions at a Companies noticeboard, and implement changes on articles for companies that they have no professional linkage to.
- Any concerns about apparent abuses, such as improper tag teaming between PR professionals, should go to an RfC/U and arbcom. I think this will offer the best of both worlds:
- there will be scrutiny from the wider community at such a Company noticeboard,
- PR professionals are not anonymous, but have their real name and reputation as well as that of their employers on the line,
- a policy identifying article requirements and potential failure modes, along with an associated noticeboard, provides a fair and more responsive mechanism to legitimate concerns, one that I believe PR professionals who come here in good faith would use in preference to making surreptitious edits under false pretences. --JN466 15:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Somebody had to have the balls
I have nominated his userpage for deletion (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 22:06, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
- Bwilkins, you are aware that there is a RfC on this very topic. What can be gained by having two separate discussions and potentially two separate consensus outcomes on the same issue? In addition, Ed17 placed page protection on the User page for Cla68, which you overrode in order to place your tag. This would seem to constitute a type of wheel-warring, since as an WP:INVOLVED editor, you overrode the protection using tools to place your deletion discussion on it. I would politely ask that you permit your nomination to be closed and withdraw any further nominations until such time as the RfC on this has closed with some type of consensus. -- Avanu (talk) 00:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
You may have missed the question ...
... up in the middle of all that stuff above. Sorry to bug you, but I think this is important, mainly because of the undercurrents to the recent ArbCom case about civility enforcement, and one of the biggest problems being that the policy is not applied equally and fairly to all. So, I'm going to paste the question (and couple of follow-on comments in here:
errrrrrrmmmm ... ummmmmmm .... I'm not quite sure how to put this one, Jimbo .... but how does this tie in with this? Pesky (talk) 11:44, 26 April 2012 (UTC) :I guess it's an example of what he intended when he wrote last month "I intend to host general philosophical and policy discussions on my page from time to time, and I intend to enforce a higher standard of civility than you may be comfortable with. If you don't like it, that's fine with me, it really is. Just don't participate if you can't do so while behaving in a respectful manner to others." (emphasis mine). Fram (talk) 13:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC) :::That's not making it any more clear to me. It may because I'm HFA. On the other hand, it could actually be a total contradiction. What I'm having trouble with is understanding how referring to another editor as a troll, and saying it's par for the course for that editor, is in line with the policy; let alone in line with "a higher standard of civility". To whom does this "higher standard" apply? Is there a list? Is there an answer? Pesky (talk) 14:15, 26 April 2012 (UTC) :::I think Fram is sarcastically pointing out that Jimbo violated his own stated civility position. Thus, Fram was agreeing with you, Pesky. (Correct me if i'm wrong, Fram) SilverserenC 16:35, 26 April 2012 (UTC) ::::Aha! I fort so! What I would appreciate, though, would be a reply from Jimbo. I know the correct procedure, if one's concerned about possible violations of WP:CIVIL, is to bring it up with a politely worded message on the user's talk page ... but I have to admit I'm not entirely sure what the "official next step" is supposed to be if the matter is ignored. Pesky (talk) 23:24, 26 April 2012 (UTC) |
I can think of at least two editors who, if it had been them that said it, would have been likely to be dragged over to AN/I and / or facing a block, or at least the SnarkFest of the AN/I board, and various members of the WikiLynchMob calling for blood. Unequal interpretation and enforcement makes people very, very sour. It makes people quit editing. It undermines us, as a community. Do you see how this is so? Do you think that any other editor should be held to a higher standard of civility than you are held to, or hold yourself to? Can you think of any way we can make the whole civility enforcement thing more fair? Pesky (talk) 05:45, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I don't agree with the premise of the question. There was nothing uncivil about my remark. I didn't make a personal attack. I characterized a certain again as an "effective troll". I actually have some grudging respect for it on those grounds. Cla68 did something mildly disruptive and upsetting to many people and pushed people to think in a new way about the consequences of certain lines of argument.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:06, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I can see your point here, but if other editors (not all, but some) "characterise" another editor as "an effective troll" (or as a vandal, idiot, fatuous, stupid, etc. etc. etc.) then Teh Community calls them on the "name-calling" aspect of WP:CIVIL. On the basis that it's not generally considered OK to make remarks like that about other editors, no matter how true one thinks the remark is. Name-calling (or characterising another editor by use of what is generally considered to be a derogatory term), no matter how valid, comes under the policy, as written. And if it comes under that policy for some editors, it surely should do so for all editors, including you! Yes? (And I hate to have to say this, but your response here was predicted pretty accurately ...) Pesky (talk) 07:19, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Again, I did not characterize anyone as a troll. I characterized the action as an effective troll. The editor in question is not a troll, and his choice of action here was unfortunate. To answer the philosophical question, I do not think all editors should be held to exactly the same standards. I think I should be held to a much higher standard than anyone, which is why I welcome questions like this - they help me to positively review my own actions. I think admins should be held to a higher standard than non-admins. I think experienced editors should be held to a higher standard than newbies.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:41, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- "Looks like a pretty effective troll to me. Par for the course for this particular editor." "Troll" (the action) v. "troll" (the person) is a nice distinction. Even if it was the action, surely the second sentence equals saying this is typical of this edeitor. If saying trolling is typical of an editor, how (in substance rather semantic hair-splitting) does it differ from calling an editor a troll? DeCausa (talk) 08:00, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Fair point.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:22, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- "Looks like a pretty effective troll to me. Par for the course for this particular editor." "Troll" (the action) v. "troll" (the person) is a nice distinction. Even if it was the action, surely the second sentence equals saying this is typical of this edeitor. If saying trolling is typical of an editor, how (in substance rather semantic hair-splitting) does it differ from calling an editor a troll? DeCausa (talk) 08:00, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Again, I did not characterize anyone as a troll. I characterized the action as an effective troll. The editor in question is not a troll, and his choice of action here was unfortunate. To answer the philosophical question, I do not think all editors should be held to exactly the same standards. I think I should be held to a much higher standard than anyone, which is why I welcome questions like this - they help me to positively review my own actions. I think admins should be held to a higher standard than non-admins. I think experienced editors should be held to a higher standard than newbies.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:41, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I can see your point here, but if other editors (not all, but some) "characterise" another editor as "an effective troll" (or as a vandal, idiot, fatuous, stupid, etc. etc. etc.) then Teh Community calls them on the "name-calling" aspect of WP:CIVIL. On the basis that it's not generally considered OK to make remarks like that about other editors, no matter how true one thinks the remark is. Name-calling (or characterising another editor by use of what is generally considered to be a derogatory term), no matter how valid, comes under the policy, as written. And if it comes under that policy for some editors, it surely should do so for all editors, including you! Yes? (And I hate to have to say this, but your response here was predicted pretty accurately ...) Pesky (talk) 07:19, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Imo, the semantics here illustrate quite nicely one of the difficulties of fixing a definition of Civility based primarily on words on the page. I too initially interpreted the sentence as a troll rather than trolling. But the absurd scenarios that iconoclastic advertisement evokes really seem to be (as we Brits say) "stirring it up": ie trolling. (For me, the missing information to understand where the post was coming from was what might constitute "par for the course" for this particular editor.) The fact is that Talk page posts are generally composed off the cuff, and aren't worded as public communications... even though they're sometimes admissibly used as such (eg here). —MistyMorn (talk) 10:36, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, we have problems with interpretation of the policy! And much, much bigger problems with who gets zapped for what :o( There was certainly ambiguity about "an effective troll" – right up the bit about "par for the course for this particular editor." At that point, for me, the ambiguity ended (with effectively an accusation of habitual trolling) but Jimbo has already conceded that that was a fair point, which is good. Misty, you're so right about talk page comments generally being off-the-cuff. People say things which they either might not have said five minutes later (or earlier); people react to what someone else has just said; people get into a tangle of mutual misunderstandings and defensiveness, and then it all gets messy. But, as said before, the major, major problem, the one that violates the fundamental principles of justice, is that some people get walloped for things which others get away with without anyone batting an eyelid. Pesky (talk) 11:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- There's are questions of context, though. Unlike you and me, Jimbo is in the public eye. And his talk page is too (unfortunately, perhaps). I guess that complicates matters somewhat from his point of view. Imo, the idea that admins and founders etc should have higher standards regards their roles. The iconic god kingy thingy only has a sense in terms of personality cult prevention. Otherwise it might itself appear uncivil! And it's no good expecting admins to be superhumans, or we soon won't be having any.
Then again, I agree that anything Malleus has to say about a hyphen risks being cited in evidence against him at ANI, whereas Jimbo can (sort of) get away with golf balls. —MistyMorn (talk) 12:33, 28 April 2012 (UTC) - Note though that the editor in question is frequently "stirring it up" and generally behaving in ways that are detrimental to the project. A civil and thoughtful discussion of behavioral problems is not an inappropriate personal attack. I don't think anyone who is familiar with his past would be surprised that he would do something like this, and so, in order to understand his action it is valuable to know that I think his action was designed to cause a stir, and that it is typical of him. I don't apologize for pointing that out.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- ...and I wasn't suggesting you did apologise! What I'm trying to say is that I don't believe it's feasible to formulate a simple set of hard and fast civility guidelines which provide a level fairway for golf shots, irrespective of human and editorial context. We have to be sensitive to that, imo. —MistyMorn (talk) 12:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- The more we try to enforce civility, the less civil the discussion becomes. Where else in the world would you see this sort of complaining, about Jimbo yet!, because someone called something "an effective troll"? We really should consider that this is one of those things, like the War on Drugs or an athlete swimming against a rip current, where the harder you try to impose a solution the worse the problem gets. Wnt (talk) 13:29, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- "The more we try to enforce civility, the less civil the discussion becomes." - That's just not true. We are very very far from the right place in terms of civility enforcement, much too tolerant of outrageous behavior. And the evidence strongly suggests that blocking people for it, either for short periods of time or for much longer if they can't stop it, is highly effective.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:19, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- [Sigh]. Amputating a leg is also a highly effective way of losing a lot of weight. It doesn't mean that it's the best way. Surely we can look for better ways? Pesky (talk) 08:00, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Adding: Fing is, though, Jimbo, fing is .... that a user talk page isn't a consensus-approved way of dealing with an editor "generally behaving in ways that are detrimental to the project". WP:RFC/U is thataway ... as they'd say at AN/I ;P Pesky (talk) 08:35, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Of course, legs are amputated for other reasons as well. You weigh the cost vs. the benefit. When editor retention is an ongoing problem, it might be worth blocking a single editor now and then for blatantly thumbing their noses at others (see the edit summary), and doing so brazenly since they know no one will do anything about it. Plus I'll point out that the ones who keep doing this are the ones who keep threatening to leave when they're blocked and yet never do -- they're drama addicts and they're here for good, no matter how much they cry when we slap their wrists. Equazcion (talk) 01:03, 30 Apr 2012 (UTC)
- "The more we try to enforce civility, the less civil the discussion becomes." - That's just not true. We are very very far from the right place in terms of civility enforcement, much too tolerant of outrageous behavior. And the evidence strongly suggests that blocking people for it, either for short periods of time or for much longer if they can't stop it, is highly effective.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:19, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- The more we try to enforce civility, the less civil the discussion becomes. Where else in the world would you see this sort of complaining, about Jimbo yet!, because someone called something "an effective troll"? We really should consider that this is one of those things, like the War on Drugs or an athlete swimming against a rip current, where the harder you try to impose a solution the worse the problem gets. Wnt (talk) 13:29, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- ...and I wasn't suggesting you did apologise! What I'm trying to say is that I don't believe it's feasible to formulate a simple set of hard and fast civility guidelines which provide a level fairway for golf shots, irrespective of human and editorial context. We have to be sensitive to that, imo. —MistyMorn (talk) 12:56, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- There's are questions of context, though. Unlike you and me, Jimbo is in the public eye. And his talk page is too (unfortunately, perhaps). I guess that complicates matters somewhat from his point of view. Imo, the idea that admins and founders etc should have higher standards regards their roles. The iconic god kingy thingy only has a sense in terms of personality cult prevention. Otherwise it might itself appear uncivil! And it's no good expecting admins to be superhumans, or we soon won't be having any.
Oh, I had a little bet with myself as to who would draw that comparison! (I lost, by the way, lol!) The gangrene thing equates to pure vandals, massive BLP-violators, legal-threaters, that kind of stuff. But we shouldn't amputate legs for psoriasis or any other irritating little rash. And some people can be a little rash ... Pesky (talk) 09:30, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Rewarding Incomptence?
Ok, this one is simply pissing me off (and I apologize for the language). Our policies on WP:ORGNAME are well-known, and well-"policed". Blocking admins obviously have significant leeway in how they block - including issuing a "soft block" that simply allows the user with an offending name to create a new one.
As per WP:ORGNAME, User:MonmouthMuseumWales was softblocked on April 20, with the proper and appropriate template on why and how to create a new username.
Suddenly, 7 days later, User:Victuallers an admin who is apparently the chair of Wikimedia UK swoops in, trashes the blocking admin, unilaterally unblocks, wholly contrary to a whack of policy.
Their justification just plain old shows either a lack of knowledge for, or lack of respect of our clear policies and years of jurisprudence.
If they cannot abide by such a simple, obvious, and required policy, and then they come in and throw their weight around as a "director" of a major chapter so that nobody is willing to undo their wrong actions (it's as chilling as a WP:NLT - I'm afraid to go up against the "big guy" in this case), they should be desysopped and removed from any position of power/trust.
Un-fricking-believable. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:37, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I have no strong opinion about this particular case,but I think that particular policy is suboptimal.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:44, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree (actually I'm only a director of WMUK) Victuallers (talk) 12:49, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Suboptimal or not, one does not change policy by unilateral action. One proposes the changes appropriately, but lives by the policies as per jurisprudence/WP:CONSENSUS until then. Victuallers - your userpage states that you "became chair on 16 april 2012". This is not an WP:IAR-eligible situation, as we block similar usernames dozens of times a day. Re-block; follow the current rules, and argue for changes the right way, not by Kingly-action (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:53, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Ummm, anybody read that policy? Says not to block unless engaging in promotional behavior, which is banned anyway. And shouldn't discussion to actually make a consensus on the issue should be done at ANI?
- (Though I can picture that eventually these org-type accounts could come up again someday as ex-employees or volunteers make off with the trademark, the entity complains and drama ensues) Wnt (talk) 13:36, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think the relevant part of the policy is "Accounts that purport to represent an entire group or company are not permitted no matter the name;" which does seem pretty unambiguous. --Mrmatiko (talk) 13:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- True, and understandable - but, in this case, the action should have been an explanation, a gentle word, and advice to change their username, rather than an instant block. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:47, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. What I take issue with is the fact that Victuallers, a director of WMUK, was the one to step in. What happened to WP:INVOLVED? Ironholds (talk) 14:21, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- In fact WP:ORGNAME does state this: "Users who adopt such usernames, but who are not editing problematically in related articles, should not be blocked. Instead, they should be gently encouraged to change their username." (Bolding as in the original.) Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the policy, the blocking admin clearly should not have blocked the user as the policy clearly states that blocking should not be used in such situations. Victuallers' unblock was absolutely correct. I don't think WP:INVOLVED is relevant in this case, as the block was indisputably wrong under any reading of the situation. Prioryman (talk) 14:23, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- @For context; this is, evidently, the account for Monmouth Museum. Victuallers, as part of his WMUK role, is heavily involved in MonmouthpediA, a project to, wait for it, wait for it...more closely link Monmouth and its notable elements with Wikipedia. The project is funded by WMUK, which Victuallers was until recently the Chair of. The project is, according to the notes from WMUK's last board meeting, being led up or closely participated in by Victuallers in his current role as one of WMUK's directors. Now, either Victuallers coincidentally happened to stop by and notice this, or he's using his admin tools while as involved in a situation as you can get without sleeping with the offending party. Whether the block was correct or not, that decision is not one Victuallers should be making. Ironholds (talk) 14:26, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- From what I can tell, the fullness of the WP:ORGNAME policy was ignored when that block was issued. I took a look at a discussion taking place on that and the policy makes a very clear statement: "Users who adopt such usernames, but who are not editing problematically in related articles, should not be blocked. Instead, they should be gently encouraged to change their username."
- So actually blocking immediately in such a case is against policy, which reminds admins to resort to their interpersonal skillset instead of their toolkit. -- Avanu (talk) 14:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Are you disputing that the blocking admin was wrong, or suggesting that the user should not have been unblocked? The important thing is that the right outcome has been reached. Complaining about Victuallers' role seems, frankly, too much like process wankery to me. Prioryman (talk) 15:47, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- @For context; this is, evidently, the account for Monmouth Museum. Victuallers, as part of his WMUK role, is heavily involved in MonmouthpediA, a project to, wait for it, wait for it...more closely link Monmouth and its notable elements with Wikipedia. The project is funded by WMUK, which Victuallers was until recently the Chair of. The project is, according to the notes from WMUK's last board meeting, being led up or closely participated in by Victuallers in his current role as one of WMUK's directors. Now, either Victuallers coincidentally happened to stop by and notice this, or he's using his admin tools while as involved in a situation as you can get without sleeping with the offending party. Whether the block was correct or not, that decision is not one Victuallers should be making. Ironholds (talk) 14:26, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- True, and understandable - but, in this case, the action should have been an explanation, a gentle word, and advice to change their username, rather than an instant block. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:47, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think the relevant part of the policy is "Accounts that purport to represent an entire group or company are not permitted no matter the name;" which does seem pretty unambiguous. --Mrmatiko (talk) 13:42, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Suboptimal or not, one does not change policy by unilateral action. One proposes the changes appropriately, but lives by the policies as per jurisprudence/WP:CONSENSUS until then. Victuallers - your userpage states that you "became chair on 16 april 2012". This is not an WP:IAR-eligible situation, as we block similar usernames dozens of times a day. Re-block; follow the current rules, and argue for changes the right way, not by Kingly-action (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:53, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- @Bwilkins, you come across as super upset about this. You said the unblocking admin "trashed" the other admin, but when I looked at his comment in the diff, it seemed polite. Policy on this is pretty clear, don't block unless they're making problematic edits. It isn't "breaking the law" if you're following the detail and minutiae of the law. I would say even the spirit of the law is being followed by not immediately (or ever) blocking someone in these circumstances. Why does this matter so much that it needs to become a big deal? -- Avanu (talk) 16:17, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- The block was rude and stupid ... and a breach of policy. The blocking admin should simply have approached the editor, human to human, and explained the situation. If the user is a reasonable person, as most are, they'll see the sense of individual account names, and it'll all be sorted in a gentle friendly way. Unblocking might have gone a small way towards ameliorating the offense caused by the blocking admin's thoughtlessness. I'm sure the user will be more than happy to rename. I'm not implying the blocking admin is rude and stupid. I don't know them. It is a rude and stupid norm among a segment of the admin corps. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:23, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Regardless of how (un)justified the block may have been, the involvement User:Victuallers has with both parties (WMUK and Monmouth Museum, as outlined nicely by User:Ironholds above) should've precluded him from administrative action here (not to mention wheel-warring is never good to begin with). Equazcion (talk) 16:31, 28 Apr 2012 (UTC)
- My impression is that WP:wheel war covers the third administrative action after the first has been reverted. Otherwise there are some other cases where this has been broken... Wnt (talk) 16:35, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'd rather see people break a rule in favor of Wiki-civility though. That said, looks like everyone messed up a little, so if everyone can just say "Sorry, I don't know why I'm not perfect like Jimbo" :) , and pledge to do better, maybe we can move on? -- Avanu (talk) 16:40, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) You're right. Though wheel-warring was only the "not to mention" part of my comment. This admin was far too close to the situation to have acted here, which should be fairly obvious, and should have been especially obvious to him. Equazcion (talk) 16:43, 28 Apr 2012 (UTC)
- My impression is that WP:wheel war covers the third administrative action after the first has been reverted. Otherwise there are some other cases where this has been broken... Wnt (talk) 16:35, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- There is an RfC in progress about the username, so I'm not sure there's much point in continuing discussion here, but it should probably be noted that Victuallers stepped down as the chair of WMUK because "I’m becoming a consultant and as I’m proposing to take Monmouthshire County Council (Wikimedia UK partners for the Monmouthpedia project) as a client" as noted here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, this is now getting to the point of passing Hanlon's razor. I'm going to directly ask that he voluntarily restrict himself in future. If not, AN/I is the way. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- The problem with the RfC is that its already off track. You have people saying it violates WP:ROLE, but before you can determine that with certainty, you need to at least ask the editor. You also have people saying it was handled poorly and mistakes were made. I would just suggest that we learn from this that civility pays off and taking an extra little time to communicate actually saves a lot of time. -- Avanu (talk) 17:28, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, this is now getting to the point of passing Hanlon's razor. I'm going to directly ask that he voluntarily restrict himself in future. If not, AN/I is the way. Ironholds (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- What exactly is the purpose of WP:ORGNAME? I know we only want one person using an account and we can make sure the user understands that, but besides that one thing, what's the issue? SilverserenC 19:19, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
- As someone who comes to this site in order to add content to Wikipedia and tries to pretend that it is not Yasn (Yet Another Social Network), I found the following to be rather illuminating:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard&oldid=489627379#Orange_Mike Ottawahitech (talk) 00:37, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm thoroughly disappointed in the way this process worked (See RfC for MonmouthMuseumWales. It had no signs of an acknowledgement of policy as written, neither the letter nor the spirit of policy was followed. The policy is not ambiguous, yet the admins chose to ignore it and the closing admin's comment, at least in my opinion, shows a complete lack of acknowledgement or interest in reviewing the text of policy and merely saying "If you don't like the policy, get it changed". Yet policy as written doesn't support the outcome that the closer supports. What change are editors supposed to bring about if the policy already is clear, but is simply being ignored? I'm quite bemused, befuddled, and perplexed. -- Avanu (talk) 02:31, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- As I pick through the two policies very closely, I see now that this is a very fine point where it could be interpreted either way. I've made some small refinements to hopefully better clarify the specific distinctions and exceptions, and added a minor suggestion that should improve civility slightly. The problem really revolves around the relationship between socking behavior and what is implied by a username and a user via their userpage. I hope admins will work to recognize the difference between a legitimate new user and ignorance of policy versus a problem user and act accordingly. No one ought to be blocked for a simple misunderstanding, especially if no harm is done. -- Avanu (talk) 03:23, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, it happens a lot. Admins will often block a user that violates ORGNAME and the only information they get about it is what's int he blocking template. I do wonder how many productive new users we lose because of these bitey actions. SilverserenC 07:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. I was instrumental in getting Xeno to change WP:UAAI in February 2011 to say that accounts using organisation names should *not* be blocked on sight if they edit productively, but that admins should *talk* to people first. That's still what WP:UAAI says today. So it's very disappointing to see that this still goes on, especially if the person at the receiving end is someone on a project like Monmouthpedia. Wikipedia is shooting itself in the foot.
- Personally, I see no problem with a company name account where the user identifies themselves with their real name on the user page, e.g. "This account is operated by Kevin Smith, the Wikipedian in residence at Organisation X". To believe that this would somehow provide less accountability than having an account named User:Starwarrior editing from a dynamic IP is absurd. --JN466 13:29, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- The one problem I can picture with an orgname, as I alluded above, is that sometimes there are bitter disagreements with employees or between those in charge of an organization. With small nonprofits, especially, you can end up in a situation where there were three people in charge and now two say the third is no longer welcome, the third claims to be the true representative of the organization, and now they're racing to lock the offices and/or remove the contents. Possibly a trademark lawsuit over the entity's URL and even the Wikipedia username could figure into it. Wnt (talk) 14:21, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- That could easily be addressed by demanding that there should only be one person operating such an account. It's a demand we make for all other accounts; no one is suggesting it should be lifted for these types of account. JN466 18:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Actually no, that doesn't solve the problem. You'd still have one ex-employee passing himself off as the organization, the others complaining, and Wikipedia potentially trying to decide who is really right in an issue that's none of our business. Of course, we _could_ decide to allow users to simply claim names without checking in any case, e.g. User:Kentucky Fried Chicken, and ignore any complaints by the company; yet somehow, I have a feeling that they could make themselves obnoxious about something like that. Wnt (talk) 19:30, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- An employee leaving would hand the account over to their successor, who updates the user page and changes the account password. JN466 08:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed. Unless they don't, in which case we have trouble. We also have a sort of trouble, for that matter, if he does hand over the password: when he goes on vacation, when he calls in sick, when he's out to lunch... and it turns into a pure role account, which is frowned upon by existing policy. Wnt (talk) 16:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- An employee leaving would hand the account over to their successor, who updates the user page and changes the account password. JN466 08:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Actually no, that doesn't solve the problem. You'd still have one ex-employee passing himself off as the organization, the others complaining, and Wikipedia potentially trying to decide who is really right in an issue that's none of our business. Of course, we _could_ decide to allow users to simply claim names without checking in any case, e.g. User:Kentucky Fried Chicken, and ignore any complaints by the company; yet somehow, I have a feeling that they could make themselves obnoxious about something like that. Wnt (talk) 19:30, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- That could easily be addressed by demanding that there should only be one person operating such an account. It's a demand we make for all other accounts; no one is suggesting it should be lifted for these types of account. JN466 18:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- It would be absurd to say that there was less accountability, perhaps that's why no-one is suggesting that "This account is operated by Kevin Smith, the Wikipedian in residence at Organisation X" type accounts have the accountability problems inherent in role accounts. But is Accountability anything to do with promotional usernames? The concern about promotional usernames is that they are promoting something external on the project. ϢereSpielChequers 15:12, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- The one problem I can picture with an orgname, as I alluded above, is that sometimes there are bitter disagreements with employees or between those in charge of an organization. With small nonprofits, especially, you can end up in a situation where there were three people in charge and now two say the third is no longer welcome, the third claims to be the true representative of the organization, and now they're racing to lock the offices and/or remove the contents. Possibly a trademark lawsuit over the entity's URL and even the Wikipedia username could figure into it. Wnt (talk) 14:21, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, it happens a lot. Admins will often block a user that violates ORGNAME and the only information they get about it is what's int he blocking template. I do wonder how many productive new users we lose because of these bitey actions. SilverserenC 07:27, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- As I pick through the two policies very closely, I see now that this is a very fine point where it could be interpreted either way. I've made some small refinements to hopefully better clarify the specific distinctions and exceptions, and added a minor suggestion that should improve civility slightly. The problem really revolves around the relationship between socking behavior and what is implied by a username and a user via their userpage. I hope admins will work to recognize the difference between a legitimate new user and ignorance of policy versus a problem user and act accordingly. No one ought to be blocked for a simple misunderstanding, especially if no harm is done. -- Avanu (talk) 03:23, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
- Our username policies have for a long time now been inconsistent and are enforced in a seemingly random fashion. There's really no security for a newbie to know if his name is okay, even if he does read all the policies and guidelines. Just look at WP:CORPNAME: "Unambiguous use of a name or URL of a company, group or product as a username is generally not permitted" directly followed by "Users who adopt such usernames, but who are not editing problematically in related articles, should not be blocked. Instead, they should be gently encouraged to change their username". "Generally not permitted" is Wikipedia speak for "has to be blocked immediately without any exception, ever" (just read some comments from some admins above), so the policy is directly contradicting itself right there.
Of course then the policy says "Blocking should be a last resort, not a first step", another thing some admins simply ignore.(Looks like that part was just recently added) How on earth do we expect people trying to do the right thing to find an acceptable user name under these conditions? --Conti|✉ 09:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)- I would love to see you diagram the possible workflow, keeping in mind that the sheer majority of people behind such usernames are here to promote their entity based on my regular interactions with them. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- There's no point in even trying as long as the policy directly contradicts itself. Either we immediately block every corporation username and tell them to change it, or we ask them nicely without blocking them first. If one half of the admins do the one thing and the other half does the other (sometimes at the same time) while both cite different parts of the policy for their actions, then something is quite wrong with the policy, isn't it? --Conti|✉ 11:10, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Or... somethings quite wrong with the admin corp and they need to fix that - or both. For example, do the admins undergo any sort of continuing education type requirements? Cops, lawyers, teachers, accountants, etc, all go back to classes occasionally to refresh their outlook or knowledge. Do admins do this, or do we expect them to maintain their sunny disposition and just learn 'on the job'? Classes like 'maintaining civility', 'new policy developments', 'dealing with new users', 'dealing with other administrators', you name it. Too much bureaucracy? Too many admins to do this? -- Avanu (talk) 15:51, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- There's no point in even trying as long as the policy directly contradicts itself. Either we immediately block every corporation username and tell them to change it, or we ask them nicely without blocking them first. If one half of the admins do the one thing and the other half does the other (sometimes at the same time) while both cite different parts of the policy for their actions, then something is quite wrong with the policy, isn't it? --Conti|✉ 11:10, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I would love to see you diagram the possible workflow, keeping in mind that the sheer majority of people behind such usernames are here to promote their entity based on my regular interactions with them. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Punishing competence
I feel I ought to say something about my personal concerns with how some sysop folks have used this policy as a block hammer. We have some truly lovely, well intentioned people in our GLAM communities who are eager to support our movement by working with their institutions (both as unpaid volunteers or paid professionals). Over the last year I have talked with some who have had bad experiences on Wikipedia and Commons after they get slapped back by administrators and immediately feel guilty that they have broken the rules and appear like a commercial spammer. I would really like our friends who work within the GLAM sector to feel supported and happy to experiment and contribute as the highly valued expert editors they ought to be seen as. The fact that even someone with such a great track record as Victuallers (talk · contribs · logs · block log) has been immediately portrayed as a paid editor with some sort of nefarious scheme afoot, rather than just being given an honest trout slap, is particularly worrying (for those so darn quick to criticise Victuallers, take another look at his fantastic track record and then hang your head in recognition of our joint shame).
As a long term vandal fighter, I know we are all completely cheesed off with spammers, vandals and manipulative advertizing agencies damaging our wonderful collaborative encyclopaedia, however in the process of robustly protecting our beautiful baby, let's not get so trigger happy that we go postal and start shooting our friends and family. Not only should the policy be made clear and easy to understand, but our admin community could probably do with some helpful reminders of how Assume good faith should especially apply to valued long term contributors and those newbie experts, academics and professionals who are genuinely trying to help our project and fully support our mission.
These are situations resolved with a friendly nudge and helpful advice rather than treating our community as a variation of Angry Birds. Come on people, play nice.
Yes, I have an interest here. I am the Chairman of the Wikimedia UK charity and so amongst other things have responsibility for the GLAM budget. As a trustee I am also unable to get paid one penny for my time, so this is not a conflict of interest.
Thanks --Fæ (talk) 12:06, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- So the immediately succeeding chair sees no problem at all with their predecessor securing paid employment as a result of these "volunteer" activities, and has no problem with that person acting as an administrator apparently in support of attaining that paid employment? Does it really need spelling out how bad your statements are looking here? Especially considering recent questions about your own adminship? Paid adminship is what we're talking about here, not wonderful chaps out painting a fence. Franamax (talk) 15:33, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Correct, they see no problem at all, and it doesn't need spelling out. They are completely corrupt and without possibility of redemption. Oh wait, I was getting carried away by your impassioned argument. Actually, Jimbo seemed to say that ETHICS is the big issue. There's nothing unethical about someone paying you to work. Its unethical if you write slanty articles or leave out useful viewpoints, etc, but I could have sworn we have policies that cover that... maybe I'm mistaken? -- Avanu (talk) 15:51, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Corruption? Questions about my own adminship? My, how readily folks throw their handbags around these days. If you have a serious complaint about me as a trustee, please consider using the process described at wmuk:Whistle-blowing Policy. If you have a meaningful complaint about my admin status on Wikipedia, then you are free to follow Requests for comment/User conduct, but try and leave plenty of clear blue water between any complaint you might dream up and the fact that I am openly gay; unlike the last RFC/U raised against me. That boat sailed long ago. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 16:18, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Fæ, the RfC/U that was started regarding your previous account User:Ash (and I re-opened when it became clear that you had not "vanished" but simply created a new account during that RfC/U to avoid sanctions) was not in any way related to you being openly gay. It was related to your editing. It wasn't about you editing in a gay way - it was primarily about your use of sources in relation to biographies of living people. It is well past time you dropped the persecution act. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:56, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Posting here and village pump to get more people familiar with it:
Hi I created this as I believed we needed a template like Bare URLs to encourage editors to add full citations not to just the websites like Alogia (band). Can somebody take care of this properly and sort out the documentation and note to use such a template like the way Template:Bare URLs is being used? Template:Ref fill, Template:Expand ref and Template:Expand reference redirects to this.. Hopefully it will encourage more editors to fill out references properly and will go a long way to ensuring a more consistent ref formatting on wikipedia with adequate source details and not just titled links.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:06, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
Russian fan club against the EMI and Apple Corps (violation of copyright: 867 songs)
Hello. Russian Wikipedia contains the link to the website http://www.beatles.ru , who implements the dirty crime in the scope of copyright, in the article The Beatles: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beatles#.D0.A1.D1.81.D1.8B.D0.BB.D0.BA.D0.B8 (Beatles.ru — Официальный клуб поклонников в России). So called Russian fan club of The Beatles has branches, to provide such implementation. This violation of copyright creates damage for a huge number of copyright holders (including EMI and Apple Corps): 867 of songs by The Beatles (online audio) without any of legal grounds are available freely. Big number of proofs is located inside of this book in PDF: http://copyright-violation.narod2.ru/VIOLATION-of-COPYRIGHT-BEATLES.RU-vs-APPLE-CORPS-and-EMI.pdf (this report will be send for the organizations on the protection of copyright). The offenders try currently to hide the trails of relations among center and branches (stupid idea, because all information was saved already). 50000 of people are members of sub-units of the criminal fan club. Via the link http://www.beatles.ru new people will become part of illegal situation (violation of a large number copyright conventions). Exists only one way to be free of this: delete the link. Russian section of Wikipedia implements lobby (favourite club) and exists very large risk get the huge claim (millions of dollars). Lobby can be found here also: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Обсуждение:The_Beatles#.D0.A4.D0.B0.D0.BD-.D0.BA.D0.BB.D1.83.D0.B1_Beatles.ru_.D0.BF.D1.80.D0.BE.D1.82.D0.B8.D0.B2_EMI_.D0.B8_Apple_Corps (talk page). Our division prepares materials to direct them to the relevant organizations later. The situation can be easy understood, if learn the report carefully (PDF): schemes and so on. Not used: licenses (any permissions), fair use, interactivity, cultural diversity, public domain and so on. We will direct the info and proofs for Interpol also (because take part several jurisdictions on this issue). Defend your Wikipedia, and good luck! - 2.94.212.54 (talk) 05:44, 30 April 2012 (UTC).
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Once upon a time
This is the one and only time I have contacted you on Wikipedia. It will be the only time because I'm flouncing. Don't be fooled by my red link status, I've done a few years on here and about 20k edits and even promoted articles to good and featured status. I really dig the idea of Wikipedia, but there is a small part of it that is broken. I think it only works if everyone's work and editing decisions are subject to impartial review, which can only be obtained if editors can be compelled to be reviewed. I recently discovered this is not the case. I was in a protracted content dispute, and it doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong in these cases, but it matters who gets to decide who is right and wrong. Unfortunately the editor I was in a dispute with was also an admin, and claimed a consensus for herself, and even refused to participate in dispute resolution, so consensus could be impartially determined. What disappointed me most was that the 3rr disciplinary board failed to compel this editor's participation in the dispute resolution process. If you start from the notion that you have two productive editors, then I think you have to assume they both have something to contribute to the article, so it is a broken system if one editor can be entirely dismissed from the editing process of an article by the other editor. Dispute resolution is the only recourse an editor has in a situation that has deteriorated, so if the process allows one editor to "opt out", then that process is not optimal; if an editor invokes dispute resolution, the opposing editor should be compelled to participate if they wish to keep editing the article. Opting out of dispute resolution seems a bit like opting out of consensus to me, so that's why I'm opting out of Wikipedia. You can snap your fingers and make this little thing happen, and it really needs to be done. Betty Logan (talk) 05:52, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- While I of course agree with you in principle, it is difficult to study this without the example.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:09, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- To User:Betty_Logan, please do not quit over recent frustrations, when many major articles need more improvements. Much writing will be needed for the upcoming 2012 Summer Olympics. Plus, the current medical articles, while great for medical students, have become almost unreadable for most teenagers – even article "Anorexia nervosa" introduces the problem using the phrase "metabolic and hormonal disorders" with NO wikilinks nor alternative wording to relate that phrase for teenagers. While you are probably qualified to be an admin, we need more people improving articles, which is where your talents seem strong. Even though many articles seem frustrating, there are thousands more where improvements will work, without as much resistance. Your efforts will win out in other areas. -Wikid77 (talk) 11:05, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Even with a quick look at the case I see a lot of broad problems:
- To begin with, the article List of vegans probably shouldn't exist. This is a classic Who's Who directory, a list of indiscriminate information, organized arbitrarily by nationality with a creative coloring scheme that involves snap judgments about a thousand different BLPs. (And arbitrarily imposes that work on anyone seeking simply to list another vegan) It doesn't tell us how many vegans there are, or what percentage of celebrities are vegan. If a different set of editors started over from scratch the article they would produce would probably have little in common with it.
- As a result, two people are arguing over whether wjsullivan.net is a good source for William John Sullivan. Maybe if we were adding that he was a vegan to his own biography article (which doesn't say that) it would be easier for those editors to evaluate the source in context.
- I think I smell POV here. There's no category for serial killers or white collar criminals. It's a colorful, well-illustrated article about a bunch of cool famous people who could serve as role models to someone. Because the list is open-ended and can't be completed, it's difficult to tell how biased it really is, though the overwhelming predominance of people from the United States, of all the unlikely places for vegetarianism, gives a hint.
- Wikipedia actually has a place to work out sourcing issues, WP:RS/N, which was consulted. [3] But it doesn't look like enough people weighed in clearly enough to give a sense of resolution.
- It is indeed true that Wikipedia's way of "mandatory dispute resolution" is to go to AN/I, which a) biases the process toward ugliness and blocking, and b) doesn't look neutral where admins are involved. We should set up a jury system where a pool of editors can be selected randomly to look in on a dispute and choose an outcome.
- Wnt (talk) 14:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Category:Serial killers by nationality Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:39, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Categories are fine - I think a category would work very well for these vegans. The problem we have is that too many WMF resources are spent figuring out image filters and redundant ways to block people, and seemingly none on filling in the deficiencies in the basic software. Categories don't have to look stodgy and stupid with a crude alphabetical organization. We should have software which, with a little AI and a lot more user editing of category parameters, can turn every category into the sort of pretty, illustrated article we see in the List of vegans. There's no reason why the software can't automatically sort out categories according to the categories of their members, produce colorful pie charts or other indexes that can be show/hidden through to focus on particular segments, even slurp up top photographs from the component articles to lay out a more colorful category display. Wnt (talk) 15:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Category:Serial killers by nationality Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:39, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Even with a quick look at the case I see a lot of broad problems:
- Without commenting on the particular issue in play here, let me note that there is now a Dispute Resolution project and that Steven Zhang has conducted and is presently compiling a survey on dispute resolution with a view towards seeing if improvements can and should be made to the present processes. (He and I had also hoped to make a Wikimania presentation on the past, present, and future of dispute resolution, but it appears to have been rejected.) The participation of anyone who is interested in dispute resolution at the project, or at any of the various DR forums would be very much appreciated by those of us who spend a lot of time working there. As a side note, let me just comment that having some kind of binding content dispute resolution is a perennial suggestion; those of us who work frequently in the area have suggested it many times, but the community has just never seemed to get behind it. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:54, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia's hardcore sex films
Jimbo, I suspect you aren't a fan or regular reader, so I'd like to draw your attention to a posting that I wrote for Wikipediocracy's blog. I think it's worth reading, but the extra short version is that Wikipedia now features hardcore sex films available for viewing in articles. The main example I use in the blog post is the article A Free Ride, but there are others. I fully appreciate the application of WP:NOTCENSORED in an educational context, but I wonder if it is time to admit that it has become a smokescreen for certain types of activism and, frankly, juvenile naughtiness? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:23, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I think Wikipedia should be proud of its work here. There are some who would say that for us to include actual photos of a hermaphrodite is reprehensible - that maybe we should have sex education for normal people, but that these aberrant individuals deserve nothing but stigmatization and contempt. (Or do you oppose even the standard illustration of the genitalia?) There are some who would say that including a short 1915 "stag film" goes beyond our mission; that our role is purely to train consumers of modern, RIAA-approved offerings to the point where they can decide what film to rent for the weekend, and beyond that we should stop - that archetypal films illustrating the early history of film are beyond the pale, especially when they demonstrate that people defied censorship even in those days. Control the past - control the future, eh? But such blindness misses a lot - it misses, for example, that this ancient porn reveals that the widespread borderline pedophilia of Hollywood wasn't so prevalent back then; that people viewed adult men and adult women as perfectly reasonable models for such films. It misses the way in which stereotypes about a lot of other things were different then from now.
- If you want a censorware "filter" for your local school or library, at least in the U.S., it is already provided, at public expense! Which is too much already. The notion that we should haphazardly abandon good work because it might put more burden on such censorware, or because it's too inconvenient to watch that children obey your taboos at home, is just ridiculous. Wnt (talk) 15:53, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- A brilliant response Wnt, the only thing I can add is that A Free Ride is the earliest extant American porno, and as such has cultural and historical significance. The article uses mostly academic sources, so if serious academics are writing about something, why shouldn't a serious encyclopedia? Nadar's work has similar, academically documented historical significance. Should I infer that DC believes the scholars who have published about these subjects in the Historical Journal of Film, Radio and Television and The Journal of Sexual Medicine are purveyors of "juvenile naughtiness"? Mark Arsten (talk) 16:04, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- The more reality-based readers may note that I have not suggested that there is any issue with the article A Free Ride. My reason for writing the blog post and mentioning it here is the inclusion in this article and others of the actual hardcore sex films themselves, which are available for any reader to watch. As usual, Wnt's comments appear to a response to some imaginary conversation, and not to the piece that I wrote or my statements here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:11, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not going to let you have it both ways. If you're going to cite these examples to shore up your case that Wikipedia is full of hardcore porn, I'm not going to let you abandon them when challenged and say that wasn't really part of what you were talking about. I've seen you do this before on the Fae RfC/U - play three card monte with your "evidence" - no, wasn't this one, try again - not gonna happen. If your point is that Wikipedia contains explicit material, then we agree on taht. If your point is that Wikipedia shouldn't have so much explicit material, then I'm saying these are some of the many things that we should gladly keep. Wnt (talk) 16:22, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Wnt, I've noticed that you have a tendency to make assumptions about what people are saying and then reacting to those frequently incorrect assumptions as if they were what people actually said. If you can construct a sentence that both makes sense and relates to what I actually wrote, I'll try to respond to it, but I find that trying to guess what it was that you thought I said to be unproductive and I was posting this here for Jimbo, not you. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:45, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Well, my apologies if I have have misunderstood your point about A Free Ride. I'm not sure it's necessary to say I'm out of touch with reality, that doesn't seem to be conducive to collaborative editing. But anyway, there are no pictures of actual nudity on the page, you have to click through to get to it. Isn't that what you want? A way to keep our more sensitive users from being surprised by sexual content? So they can voluntarily avoid it when using the site? (Since that's what a voluntary image filter would do.) Mark Arsten (talk) 16:51, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not going to let you have it both ways. If you're going to cite these examples to shore up your case that Wikipedia is full of hardcore porn, I'm not going to let you abandon them when challenged and say that wasn't really part of what you were talking about. I've seen you do this before on the Fae RfC/U - play three card monte with your "evidence" - no, wasn't this one, try again - not gonna happen. If your point is that Wikipedia contains explicit material, then we agree on taht. If your point is that Wikipedia shouldn't have so much explicit material, then I'm saying these are some of the many things that we should gladly keep. Wnt (talk) 16:22, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- The more reality-based readers may note that I have not suggested that there is any issue with the article A Free Ride. My reason for writing the blog post and mentioning it here is the inclusion in this article and others of the actual hardcore sex films themselves, which are available for any reader to watch. As usual, Wnt's comments appear to a response to some imaginary conversation, and not to the piece that I wrote or my statements here. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:11, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- A brilliant response Wnt, the only thing I can add is that A Free Ride is the earliest extant American porno, and as such has cultural and historical significance. The article uses mostly academic sources, so if serious academics are writing about something, why shouldn't a serious encyclopedia? Nadar's work has similar, academically documented historical significance. Should I infer that DC believes the scholars who have published about these subjects in the Historical Journal of Film, Radio and Television and The Journal of Sexual Medicine are purveyors of "juvenile naughtiness"? Mark Arsten (talk) 16:04, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Also, I find it very disappointing that you went digging around online to out another editor just because you don't like the subject he/she was editing about--particularly considering that he wasn't even the person who added the film to the article to begin with. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:51, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- By "digging around online" I take it you mean looking at the links that they put on their own userpage? If you had more experience with me you wouldn't have been disappointed. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:06, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I don't think we have interacted before. But again, I'm curious why you found it necessary to collect information about him offsite and then publicize it? Mark Arsten (talk) 17:12, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- SupernovaExplosion was not trying to hide his identity, as evidenced by the links on his userpage. If he is embarrassed by his association with the article, perhaps picking up another DYK for simply awful pastiche that is Bathroom sex will make him feel better. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:33, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, I think we're talking past each other here, so I will disengage. But I will suggest that if you feel an article is awful, it's best to try to fix it rather than complaining on a 3rd-party's talk page. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:44, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- There's a distinction between "not trying to hide your identity" and wanting someone to root out a handful of your many contributions about one topic and present them in the worst light as the representation of what you do on Wikipedia, beside your name. The fact is, every editor reading this knows that if they've ever revealed their name anywhere however obscure connected to Wikipedia, they can expect to be "named and shamed" if they edit topics you don't like. That's your point and it's getting through loud and clear. The safest response, of course, is to join the "silenced majority" and stop editing. Wnt (talk) 18:02, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- We're talking about a silent film from 1915. These days, with all the pornography available on the Internet, I would be shocked if you could find anyone who found more value in the video as pornography than as a work of filmmaking history. Should we also remove the images from Erotic art in Pompeii and Herculaneum? Historical pornographic material is an encyclopedic topic, and it can't be covered properly without the reader actually being able to see the material. There's a reasonable argument to be made that the inclusion criteria at commons are too weak and that too much pornographic material there damages the reputation and educational mission of Wikimedia, but by targeting a 1915 pornographic film you're just muddying the waters and not addressing the real issue.GabrielF (talk) 17:38, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think the images should be removed from Erotic art in Pompeii and Herculaneum, and I did not suggest that they should be. The film is silent and in black and white, but no less a hardcore sex film because of it. (I have no doubt that it is later than 1915, but the date is really not important). One could argue that 1 Night in Paris "can't be covered properly without the reader actually being able to see the material" but since it isn't in the public domain yet, we don't need to have that discussion. Yet. This is the first case of Wikipedia having a hardcore sex film in an article, but I'm sure it won't be the last. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:29, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Shocked, would you? A Free Ride's sister video, Devoirs de vacances, featuring dog-on-nun sex, among other types, has been viewed over 70,000 times on Commons in the last 90 days. Do you think they're all film students? Judging by the elated comments on Reddit, I am doubtful:
- "I was not expecting gay sex, zoophilia, and glory holes to be covered in that."
- "... holy shit, crabs attacking penises, buttsex male and female, bestiality, and gloryholes. Welp, think that about covers 5 minutes."
- "Sure is hard to type left handed."
- "I could also fap to this, it's pretty hot, especially the part where the girl's pussy starts sucking on the head of his dick as if it were a mouth."
- "I just finished watching it. Download this, reddit. It's worth it. It's really interesting and has variation that puts a modern run-of-the-mill porn to shame. Aside from the spanking, hetero fellatio, Intercourse and cumshots from the wikipedia vid, it also has girl-on-girl fellatio, Guy-on-Guy (!) fellatio, DOG-on-girl-and-guy fellatio and even a very funny 6 min porn Cartoon at the end (wich is frontpage worthy on its own). This movie is a very weird mix of hilarity, education and erotic. Oh and a very nice ragtime soundtrack.
- "It's like masturbating in a time machine."
- "I cannot fap to this without my monocle!"
- I'm not saying it isn't educational, but I note that it is unfiltered and accessible on UK school computers (I checked with the IT guy in our local school). I'm not so much worried about the kids – they get much the same in colour on their mobile phones from age 11 – but I do think it's poor conduct from an educational charity. Or perhaps it's a brave new world, and I am one generation too old to be comfortable with this kind of PR strategy. --JN466 18:45, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- P.S. Also note the squirting video in female ejaculation, an article currently viewed 15,000 times a day (ranked 410 on English Wikipedia). JN466 18:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Dear Mr Wales,
Being a reviewer in Russian Wikipedia, I ask you to express your opinion in the mentioned Pending Changes poll.