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And there's still people arguing that if a secondary source says a phrase was first used in 1947, and we find a primary source that used it in 1945, we must keep the secondary source. [[User:Ken Arromdee|Ken Arromdee]] ([[User talk:Ken Arromdee|talk]]) 18:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC) |
And there's still people arguing that if a secondary source says a phrase was first used in 1947, and we find a primary source that used it in 1945, we must keep the secondary source. [[User:Ken Arromdee|Ken Arromdee]] ([[User talk:Ken Arromdee|talk]]) 18:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC) |
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:Ken, thank you for bringing that sort of example to my attention. It's a good one.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 09:22, 30 December 2011 (UTC) |
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: That VNT issue is going to be in eternal Purgatory unless the WMF does something about it. It's not like we don't actually have a good policy wording about that issue in [[WP:OR]]. We do: "Appropriate sourcing can be a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages." ¶ It's just that VNT is now a cheap beer advert that's distorting Wikipedia's core mission. [[WP:5P]] layers NPOV on top of V and of OR as the real content goal. And IAR is parallel to NPOV. One can't possibly claim that writing an article according to a rigid set rules "this type of source always beats that other type and VNT is supreme" is actually based on 5P. But VNT has come to represent the transcription-monkey and for-dummies rule-set approach to writing articles. It's damaging both internally in terms of the enormous waste time around itself and its misapplication, and externally in terms of misrepresenting Wikipedia's goals and machinery. [[User:ASCIIn2Bme|ASCIIn2Bme]] ([[User talk:ASCIIn2Bme|talk]]) 20:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC) |
: That VNT issue is going to be in eternal Purgatory unless the WMF does something about it. It's not like we don't actually have a good policy wording about that issue in [[WP:OR]]. We do: "Appropriate sourcing can be a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages." ¶ It's just that VNT is now a cheap beer advert that's distorting Wikipedia's core mission. [[WP:5P]] layers NPOV on top of V and of OR as the real content goal. And IAR is parallel to NPOV. One can't possibly claim that writing an article according to a rigid set rules "this type of source always beats that other type and VNT is supreme" is actually based on 5P. But VNT has come to represent the transcription-monkey and for-dummies rule-set approach to writing articles. It's damaging both internally in terms of the enormous waste time around itself and its misapplication, and externally in terms of misrepresenting Wikipedia's goals and machinery. [[User:ASCIIn2Bme|ASCIIn2Bme]] ([[User talk:ASCIIn2Bme|talk]]) 20:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC) |
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::I have to chime in and second this. I understand the VNT principle is to keep WP grounded in reality and not people delusions of what the "truth" is. But sources that meet WP:V and even WP:RS can also be deluded, sometimes about things that are obvious/common knowledge. So in such circumstances, do we put what every reasonable person knows to be the case, or what some outlandish source says, that is somehow not WP:FRINGE. I've argued before that at some point there needs to be a bar set - a threshold / standard of sanity, for inculsion, that in the ultimate calculation can only determined by thoughtful, common sense editors, using their brains and WP:IAR where appropriate rather than blindly following some dogma to the letter but not the spirit. i loath the day when wikipedia becomes nothing more than a [[simulacrum]] of simulacra. we can do better than that. things like [[WP:FRINGE]] and article talk boilerplates and FAQs have often been the saving grace, but that's not always the case and there remain many instances of [http://zvon.org/comp/r/ref-Jargon_file.html#Terms~buried_treasure buried treasure] and the like that will remain presumably until a very small select few editors very stubbornly and dogmatically applying VNT and some convoluted policies they made up themselves but think they didn't -- expire. things like that are very frustrating to everyone. and i think having improving on that core philosophical idea of what an encyclopedia is and how it works -- something a bit more discursive than just VNT -- can go a long way in alleviating those kinds of problems. [[User:Kevin_Baas|Kevin Baas]]<sup>[[User_talk:Kevin_Baas|talk]]</sup> 20:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC) |
::I have to chime in and second this. I understand the VNT principle is to keep WP grounded in reality and not people delusions of what the "truth" is. But sources that meet WP:V and even WP:RS can also be deluded, sometimes about things that are obvious/common knowledge. So in such circumstances, do we put what every reasonable person knows to be the case, or what some outlandish source says, that is somehow not WP:FRINGE. I've argued before that at some point there needs to be a bar set - a threshold / standard of sanity, for inculsion, that in the ultimate calculation can only determined by thoughtful, common sense editors, using their brains and WP:IAR where appropriate rather than blindly following some dogma to the letter but not the spirit. i loath the day when wikipedia becomes nothing more than a [[simulacrum]] of simulacra. we can do better than that. things like [[WP:FRINGE]] and article talk boilerplates and FAQs have often been the saving grace, but that's not always the case and there remain many instances of [http://zvon.org/comp/r/ref-Jargon_file.html#Terms~buried_treasure buried treasure] and the like that will remain presumably until a very small select few editors very stubbornly and dogmatically applying VNT and some convoluted policies they made up themselves but think they didn't -- expire. things like that are very frustrating to everyone. and i think having improving on that core philosophical idea of what an encyclopedia is and how it works -- something a bit more discursive than just VNT -- can go a long way in alleviating those kinds of problems. [[User:Kevin_Baas|Kevin Baas]]<sup>[[User_talk:Kevin_Baas|talk]]</sup> 20:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC) |
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::Agree too. How the recent poll, in which over 400 editors participated, with close to two-thirds (276 vs. 149) supporting, came to be closed as no consensus and no change will always remain something of a mystery to me. --'''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' 23:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC) |
::Agree too. How the recent poll, in which over 400 editors participated, with close to two-thirds (276 vs. 149) supporting, came to be closed as no consensus and no change will always remain something of a mystery to me. --'''<font color="#0000FF">[[User:Jayen466|J]]</font><font color=" #FFBF00">[[User_Talk:Jayen466|N]]</font><font color="#0000FF">[[Special:Contributions/Jayen466|466]]</font>''' 23:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC) |
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:::I think that close was in error. It applied the wrong principle. It is not necessary to have 2/3rds majority to make a change to a policy page. It's valuable to avoid voting as much as possible and actually let the wiki process work, i.e. consecutive edits by people of good faith seeking a compromise that takes into account to the maximum degree possible the valid arguments on all sides. When we vote, we end up with this sort of absurdity, i.e. that we have a policy that a very strong majority of people don't approve of, to which there are perfectly valid objections which are not being answered. It's wrong.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 09:22, 30 December 2011 (UTC) |
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== Slashdot == |
== Slashdot == |
Revision as of 09:22, 30 December 2011
(Manual archive list) |
Why don't you guys just advertise?
I'm just an everyday wikipedia user. I do enjoy using it and hope that ti remains available. With that in mind I'm asking, why don't you jusy advertise? Yeah if everyone donated $5 you could stop the fundraiser. You could also stop it if you put a mentos ad in a sidebar. The fundraiser is getting to be as annoying as the damn ads would be. Is it just that you don't want to feel like sell-outs? It seems to me like a pretty easy choice. People aren't going to pay for something that could be completely free if the owners would bite the bullet. You're providing a valuable service. Feel good, make some money, and stop whining.
Paul199.48.24.10 (talk) 20:33, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
- And how much could you trust our articles about Mentos, or the conglomerate multinational that makes and sells them, if we were sponsored by them? We decided a long time ago that in order to preserve our independence, we would not take ads. This has been re-hashed hundreds of times over the years, and nobody has come up with a convincing argument to make us change our minds. The fundraising banners are merely annoying. Sponsorship/advertising would be fatal. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:45, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
- Basically, I think "Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." is better than "Wikipedia, proud sponsor of XYZ." Moreover, there's also not to mention that we have quite a few around here who dislike capitalism, let alone having that manifest here. --MuZemike 21:59, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
- Not sure if the previous post was stating that to advertise "makes sense" - if so, then he\she is 100% incorrect. The current model seems to work well and if Wikipedia users have issues with seeing the pitches re: donating then guess what, go somehwere else. Besides, if that is really your complaint, then how is seeing a pitch re: donations any worse than seeing an advert which is, when you boil it down, the same exact thing but instead, it's for a product. Not everything is for sale and I love the fact that Wikipedia chose to go the route they have - keep adverts and companies out of the free information business - if it ain't broke, don't screw with it - leave it as is and everything is fine. – Aleding (talk) 02:35, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- Adverts would kill Wikipedia. We're already at the centre of every accusation of bias you can imagine; add commercial interests into the mix and you might as well turn the lightbulbs off now. I appreciate that the look of the site is a bit old-fashioned, but a television set essentially hasn't changed its appearance in 60-odd years and people seem to find them quite durable. In short - donations are useful. Advertisements would be lack black widow spiders. doktorb wordsdeeds 22:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- It is broke. The servers are horribly slow and we have a terrible, terrible UX. We're a Web 2.0 website with a Web 1.0 interface. Ugh. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:59, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- And I suppose the only way to fix that is by going from PHP to Adobe Flash. That will fix everything! (shameless spam) --MuZemike 22:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- Please substantiate your claims. The servers are slow? By what standard are you measuring? I use the site for several hours every single day and it is one of the most reliable and snappy I've encountered? Do you or anyone else have any reliable test data that supports your contention? As for the "horrible UX" (I assume you meant "UI") - again, by what standard? It seems to work fine for not just for me but also the countless hundreds\thousands of other wiki sites. I missed the part in Wikipedia's mission where the goal is to be super pretty. However, what is clearly broken is this persistent push by the few to essentially clutter the UI for the many and in the process, sabotaging Wikipedia's core mission just to garner unnecessary ad revenue for issues easily solved with the current donation-based model. So then what is the real issue? Are some folks bugged by the occasional donation drive messages? If so, then again, how is swapping that for numerous other ads going to solve your issue? And besides, that is a small price to pay to keep Wikipedia independent and focused on the core mission. Is the issue maybe that some folks don't want to donate because it doesn't fit their particular needs or desires? Then fine, don't contribute - the rest will cover the bill and if any tech issues arise, then we'll get that covered as well. The pro-Advertising folks need to just accept Wikipedia as-is complete with it's core mission and values. If they find they are unable to do so, then rather than trying to redefine Wikipedia's core mission, they need to move on. As an aside, Encyclopedia Britannica is free online and supported by sales revenue - NOT ADVERTISING. Is their site prettier? Yes. Do the majority of Wikipediers care? I think NO. Do the aesthetics provide for a better encyclopedia? Possibly a bit but definitely nowhere nearly enough to justify sacrificing Wikipedia's independence. − 99.100.177.189 (talk) 23:48, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Flash is dead. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:49, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- Flash isn't dead - far from it - but it will die in the next 3 years or so. Regardless, it does completely suck - making the move from PHP to Flash would be another horrible idea. − 99.100.177.189 (talk) 23:48, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it's horribly slow. Try going through an article's page history looking for diffs. It's slow, painful process.
No, I don't mean UI. UX stands for user experience. It's the study of how users interact with computing devices. UX is now taught at the university level.[1] If you're unfamiliar with usability, I highly recommend Smashing UX Design and Jakob Nielsen. Nielsen, in particular, is a highly respected industry expert. You may have even read about him recently. His critique of the Amazon Fire made headlines everywhere.[2] I've been a software developer for nearly 15 years now and we're in a brand new world where technology is being consumerized. The very idea that we expect non-technical users to modify markup code is insane.
We want more editors to contribute to the project? Hire some damn usablity experts. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:27, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps insane, perhaps not. If you work with it long enough, one gets the hang of it. If you are an HTML programmer, congratulations, you can already control and edit half of Wikipedia's functionality.—cyberpower (X-Mas Chat)(Contrib.) 00:40, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
- Also, please read this wonderful column by David Platt. Platt, who teaches software development at Harvard, does excellent job debunking the myth that UX is only about looking pretty. It should be required reading for anyone in the industry in my not-so-humble opinion.[3] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:40, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
- Nothing you have said qualifies as justification for moving away from a donation model to one that requires ad revenue. Your performance experiences are likely due to something else external to Wikipedia - maybe take some of that 15 years experience out for a spin and figure out what it might be. As for the topic of UX, GREAT - thanks for the defining the acronym and yeah, thanks - already knew what it was - as if the name itself was a big enough clue. But I gotta ask - what the heck do you think this is? This is online encyclopedia - not an operating system. With any markup language, there will be a learning curve for the non-techie user - I would have thought that would be intuitive. With that in mind, MediaWiki has a whole slew of stuff that can be combined to create an extremely powerful and functional tool bar to take much of the the markup guesswork out of the equation - I figured that would have also been intuitive. All a user needs to do is create content and then much of the actual formatting can be done using the toolbar - pretty easy even for the layman. And finally, guess what - we are a team - we work together. Where one needs help or has made an error, then others are there to lend a hand. In fact, one could even have a situation where folks work as a small partnership - some take care of authoring, others markup - etc. The Wikipedia system works very well for the vast majority of folks who both consume and contribute. Maybe not for you - fair enough - so then again, don't use it - nobody's forcing you to use it or to even to contribute. I highly doubt that there is any steep barrier of entry for new editors getting involved based even in part on markup language in use. I suspect the main hindrance for not having more folks involved is time, not the "UX". I can assure you that most folks would agree with me in saying that Wikipedia does not require a full rebuild in an attempt to incorporate some usability design methodologies that likely would fail to significantly improve the content nor the site ESPECIALLY if it required ad revenue. − 99.100.177.189 (talk) 03:29, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Why is the process of adding images to our articles so complex and difficult?
Jimbo, I am a relatively experienced wikipedian (since 2006) and am technically proficient; having 16 patents to my name and been a research scientist who did technical writing for decades, I am not exactly a dolt. Yet, ensuring that proper licenses are used for images has been the most frustrating and trying process of contributing to Wikipedia.
Please see the latest morass I stepped in here on my talk page. I created the solid model depicted in that image and made that screen capture. When uploading, I was asked if I was the creator of the image and I selected the suggested Creative Commons cc-by-sa-3.0 license.
But I fouled up. Again, apparently.
We can’t expect wikipedians to have so much proficiency with copyright law when uploading images. There needs to be better automated guidance shepherding contributors through the process of choosing a license and there needs to be some boilerplate fair-use rationale for the more common situations so we don’t put Wikipedia in the position of expecting legal t's to be crossed and i's dotted by 16-year-old wikipedians taking a break from their homework. Greg L (talk) 21:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
P.S. If it turns out that the Creative Commons cc-by-sa-3.0 license I used was the correct one after all and there are no other problems with the licensing I used there, then (that’s conditional on the “If” at the beginning of this sentence) I would submit that there needs to be a better process for tracking down, flagging, and correcting shortcomings in image licenses on Wikipedia. If my understanding is correct, absolutely anyone can go hunting for image-licesing issues and engage the uploading editors about perceived copyright violations. Greg L (talk) 21:49, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
- If 16-year-olds performed brain surgery and calculated consumer loans: I wish it could be simpler, but the more people have learned about complex restrictions in copyright laws, the more complex the Wikipedia rules have become to cover those restrictions. Not everything can be simple, not brain surgery, not consumer loan payments with a single credit life premium, and not copyright laws for fair-use images nor freedom of panorama. There are dozens of details to consider. The best solution is to contact a professional brain surgeon, or contact the copyright notice boards for help with complex restrictions in uploading images. This is a case of "a little learning is a dangerous thing" and perhaps an excellent topic to explain that concept to others over a period of several months, or years. I understand the frustration, but keep asking other people for help. -Wikid77 23:07, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- Is that a bad thing, necessarily, to have anyone able to make sure that our media is properly licensed? I mean, this is a volunteer project; we AGF in that most people are able to competently make sure that our media meet our standards for both free and non-free use. The same applies for any other maintenance task here. And I hope you made a typo in your condescending statement about your typical tagger, as the person who tagged your image is in fact 61 and not 16. --MuZemike 22:13, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
- Wow. In your eager rush to find something in my above post to which you can take offense, you overlooked the two main points I was making:
- The process of getting the correct license and fair-use rationale is incomplete and overly abstruse, and
- It may be wise to require special permission for volunteer editors to ensure they have the knowledge of image-licensing before allowing them to flit about engaging others.
- And, no, it is not a bad thing to ensure our media is properly licensed; the question is whether the process for ensuring this is the case so is up to the challenge.
As for my “condescending statement”, it wasn’t a typo and I wasn’t suggesting that the person who tagged my image is 16 years old. Read it again please. No reasonable interpretation would draw such an inference; I was suggesting that the process for guiding uploading contributors was so abstruse that it is unrealistic to expect the younger contributors—like 16 year olds—to understand the intricacies while uploading. My statement made no conjectures whatsoever about the age of the volunteer from England who thought my Creative Commons cc-by-sa-3.0 license is insufficient.
- And, no, it is not a bad thing to ensure our media is properly licensed; the question is whether the process for ensuring this is the case so is up to the challenge.
- As for “AGF”, it is about assuming that contributors have good-faith intentions; AGF has nothing to do with assuming everyone is competent at everything they try their hand in. That issue is covered by Wikipedia:Competence is required. Moreover, I am not necessarily saying that the tagger is not correct; he or she may be correct about how the 58 top-most pixels of this image require that the whole image be declared to be someone else’s work—which defies common sense.
What is precipitating this whole thread is the image I now placed in this thread. I personally created that solid model, which is central to what that image is about. If following the directions for uploading that image, where one is guided through the process of selecting the correct Creative Commons license for self-generated images, isn’t sufficient, then the process needs to be improved. It may also be time to consider just who is allowed to run around looking for copyright and licensing concerns because the *quality* of the imaging-licensing tagging I’ve seen over the years has varied from perfectly satisfactory to just abysmal. Greg L (talk) 23:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
- I am sure it was just a good faith tagging. I was wondering, you have created the screw thingy in the program but do you have a right to claim ownership of the screenshot that shows details of a copyrighted program or are screenshots of programs free of copyright? See this screenshot of windows is non free media..? Copyright is quite complicated in general and remember is one of our legal related policies and we have a few users that are prepared to work in that field and do so mostly extremely well for the money, we are grateful to them, and especially the added responsibility there is when you consider making judgments on legal issues has its own possible repercussions. IMO - to comply with CC release, and erring on the side of caution, you should crop the program details from the edge and re upload. I also recommend if you are uploading anything under a commons compatible license that you upload it to commons. - Youreallycan (talk) 23:50, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
- (ec four times in a row) Yes, I’m sure it was a good faith tagging too. As for the seeming problem with the copyright notice(s) or lack thereof, you are taking the words right out of my mouth. Those 58 pixels at the top, which show user-interface elements of a program may require that two things be done when uploading images like this: Give a Creative Commons for the “screw thingy”, as you say, and generate a fair-use rationale covering the 58 pixels at top—such language as There are some visual interface elements showing in this image to enable the reader to discern that AutoDesk Inventor is being used to export the original solid model. AutoDesk’s rights aren’t infringed when simple visual elements are illustrated because there is no accompanying output code or source code. Displaying such basic visual elements to show something is considered fair use in order to offer an encyclopedic treatment and critical commentary of the software in question and how it accepts solid models from other programs. The current uploading process expects contributors to show facility and competency in generating boilerplate fair-use rationale like this and that is an absurd expectation. I’ve been around the block a few times, just generated that xt-text myself, and have no clue it is sufficient. Just copying copyright notices from other places is no good at all; the previous time I got tagged was because I had done precisely that: springboarded off someone else’s copyright notice which proved, years later to be fatally flawed. This fiasco all points to how the process greatly needs improvement, which is my point #1, above.
As for cropping, I anticipated that this would be thrown out as a suggestion. Absolutely not. There is no reason to because there are ways to generate a fair-use rationale that perfectly well covers this. Moreover, that’s the whole point of including those interface elements in the image: to demonstrate that the solid model is coming out of that particular program. What is so terribly unfortunate is that there is so much conjecture about the true nature of the problem with the licensing that I still don’t have a clear answer as to what is required to fix the licensing (other than to start cropping). Your suggestion just proved how absurd this image-uploading process is. Greg L (talk) 00:10, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- What's absurd isn't the upload process, it is the difficulty of understanding copyright laws. A couple years ago, I saw a cartoon I liked, so I contacted the cartoonist, and paid a fair amount for the original cartoon, which I now have hanging in my office. It's mine right? Well, yes, and no. I own the original artwork, but not the copyright. I can display it in my house, but I cannot take a picture of it and post it; the cartoonist retained that right. My point isn't an objection tot he law, my point is that the law is complicated, and not always obvious. The process for uploading have to be as complicated as the law it tries to follow.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 00:25, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- ((ec}} - I don't see anything absurd about it. I don't think you can release part of the picture under a commons license and add a fair use clause for the border. If you insist on including the copyrighted portion then I suggest you remove the commons license and add a screen-shot non free rationale. Also Greg, please stop enlarging your picture on this talkpage, it's unnecessary to the discussion and the upload has copyright issues at present. Non free files should not be posted on userpages as I understand it, there is a bot that goes around removing them. Youreallycan (talk) 00:29, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- Youreallycan, you and I are just going to have to admit that neither of us are copyright attorneys. With such exceedingly small and superficial amounts of the program author’s I.P. being used and with so much of the image overwhelmingly dominated by my contribution, those two images seem to me to rightly be a derivative original that properly required only the Creative Commons cc-by-sa-3.0 license. This all just proves my point again: the uploading process and the guidance for determining what license is required is insufficient for circumstances like this. BTW, the tagger and I seem to be on the same wavelength. He was indeed thinking that fair-use stuff needs to be added to cover the user-interface elements. I think that is overkill for what seems clearly to be a derivative original, but that base has been covered nonetheless. This was far too much hassle for what may well have been overly sensitive judgement call by one of Wikipedia’s many volunteers who enjoy doing this sort of thing. The system needs improving. I’m done here. Goodbye. Greg L (talk) 01:00, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- I am not certain what you were basing your conclusion on as the term "derivative original" does not occur in that link you provided. However from that source, note "In any case where a protected work is used unlawfully, that is, without the permission of the copyright owner, copyright will not be extended to the illegally used part." You can't take someone else's work and put into the commons, even just in a corner of your work. Rmhermen (talk) 03:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- I am not certain what you were basing your conclusion on as the term "derivative original" does not occur in that link you provided. However from that source, note "In any case where a protected work is used unlawfully, that is, without the permission of the copyright owner, copyright will not be extended to the illegally used part." You can't take someone else's work and put into the commons, even just in a corner of your work. Rmhermen (talk) 03:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Youreallycan, you and I are just going to have to admit that neither of us are copyright attorneys. With such exceedingly small and superficial amounts of the program author’s I.P. being used and with so much of the image overwhelmingly dominated by my contribution, those two images seem to me to rightly be a derivative original that properly required only the Creative Commons cc-by-sa-3.0 license. This all just proves my point again: the uploading process and the guidance for determining what license is required is insufficient for circumstances like this. BTW, the tagger and I seem to be on the same wavelength. He was indeed thinking that fair-use stuff needs to be added to cover the user-interface elements. I think that is overkill for what seems clearly to be a derivative original, but that base has been covered nonetheless. This was far too much hassle for what may well have been overly sensitive judgement call by one of Wikipedia’s many volunteers who enjoy doing this sort of thing. The system needs improving. I’m done here. Goodbye. Greg L (talk) 01:00, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- (ec four times in a row) Yes, I’m sure it was a good faith tagging too. As for the seeming problem with the copyright notice(s) or lack thereof, you are taking the words right out of my mouth. Those 58 pixels at the top, which show user-interface elements of a program may require that two things be done when uploading images like this: Give a Creative Commons for the “screw thingy”, as you say, and generate a fair-use rationale covering the 58 pixels at top—such language as There are some visual interface elements showing in this image to enable the reader to discern that AutoDesk Inventor is being used to export the original solid model. AutoDesk’s rights aren’t infringed when simple visual elements are illustrated because there is no accompanying output code or source code. Displaying such basic visual elements to show something is considered fair use in order to offer an encyclopedic treatment and critical commentary of the software in question and how it accepts solid models from other programs. The current uploading process expects contributors to show facility and competency in generating boilerplate fair-use rationale like this and that is an absurd expectation. I’ve been around the block a few times, just generated that xt-text myself, and have no clue it is sufficient. Just copying copyright notices from other places is no good at all; the previous time I got tagged was because I had done precisely that: springboarded off someone else’s copyright notice which proved, years later to be fatally flawed. This fiasco all points to how the process greatly needs improvement, which is my point #1, above.
- I am sure it was just a good faith tagging. I was wondering, you have created the screw thingy in the program but do you have a right to claim ownership of the screenshot that shows details of a copyrighted program or are screenshots of programs free of copyright? See this screenshot of windows is non free media..? Copyright is quite complicated in general and remember is one of our legal related policies and we have a few users that are prepared to work in that field and do so mostly extremely well for the money, we are grateful to them, and especially the added responsibility there is when you consider making judgments on legal issues has its own possible repercussions. IMO - to comply with CC release, and erring on the side of caution, you should crop the program details from the edge and re upload. I also recommend if you are uploading anything under a commons compatible license that you upload it to commons. - Youreallycan (talk) 23:50, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
- As for “AGF”, it is about assuming that contributors have good-faith intentions; AGF has nothing to do with assuming everyone is competent at everything they try their hand in. That issue is covered by Wikipedia:Competence is required. Moreover, I am not necessarily saying that the tagger is not correct; he or she may be correct about how the 58 top-most pixels of this image require that the whole image be declared to be someone else’s work—which defies common sense.
I'm 100% sympathetic to your problem here. What you had to deal with is pretty ridiculous. But, what's the solution?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- I just had a weird idea. What if there was an option that people could click, "I don't know much about copyright law, so I give permission for the community to choose the license and fix the licensing terms. Insofar as I have any rights to the image, I'm giving them up but desire for my work to be freely licensed as much as possible." If we did that then copyright experts could simply fix things themselves and notify the user, rather than make the user feel like they need to go get a law degree before contributing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:15, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Jimbo, I've learned more about copyright law in five years of editing here than in 20 years as a lawyer! Intellectual property is a bit of a specialized field. There is such an option on WP's upload page here, but it is rather buried (look way, way at the bottom). Should it be made more prominent?--Wehwalt (talk) 00:20, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Right, I think it is a bit sad that we (particularly those of us who haven't been lawyers for 20 years!) have to become quasi-experts in copyright law. Here's a thought experiment. You're a very happy newbie. You're 19 years old and you were waiting outside your favorite regionally-popular but not super-famous band's concert for an autograph and photo. You asked if you could take a photo and put it in Wikipedia, and the band said yes. The lighting, per chance, was just right. The photo is not bad. You've been a small-time editor of Wikipedia, with 20 or so edits to your name, mostly adding release dates to albums of your favorite bands. So you start to upload your photo. You know nothing about copyright, let's assume. Let's assume that you have a lot of vague and wrong ideas about it, not even sure what the difference is between copyright, patent, and trademark. All you know is, you took a picture, you want to give it to the world, you ask nothing in return, you asked the band and got their permission. Now, you get to the Upload page . You scan down the page until you get to "I need help figuring out what the license is or I need help in understanding image copyright and Fair Use policies". What you get is a discussion page where you can talk to people about it. Maybe you know your question is stupid and feel embarrassed to ask. Anyway, it's a thought experiment. I'm not convinced we do enough to make that process easy for people.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:32, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with you. Like all of us, I do best with clear instructions. It took me two or three years to really understand how to do images around here. I'm no photobucket expert, but I can take an image or find one out there, upload it, evaluate copyright status and all that. If you make a mistake with that with an article at FAC, you learn quickly or don't hang around there. At 19, I doubt I would have had the patience. By the way, I've known a few bands from time to time and uploaded images! Uncomfortably close for comfort!--Wehwalt (talk) 00:40, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
- Right, I think it is a bit sad that we (particularly those of us who haven't been lawyers for 20 years!) have to become quasi-experts in copyright law. Here's a thought experiment. You're a very happy newbie. You're 19 years old and you were waiting outside your favorite regionally-popular but not super-famous band's concert for an autograph and photo. You asked if you could take a photo and put it in Wikipedia, and the band said yes. The lighting, per chance, was just right. The photo is not bad. You've been a small-time editor of Wikipedia, with 20 or so edits to your name, mostly adding release dates to albums of your favorite bands. So you start to upload your photo. You know nothing about copyright, let's assume. Let's assume that you have a lot of vague and wrong ideas about it, not even sure what the difference is between copyright, patent, and trademark. All you know is, you took a picture, you want to give it to the world, you ask nothing in return, you asked the band and got their permission. Now, you get to the Upload page . You scan down the page until you get to "I need help figuring out what the license is or I need help in understanding image copyright and Fair Use policies". What you get is a discussion page where you can talk to people about it. Maybe you know your question is stupid and feel embarrassed to ask. Anyway, it's a thought experiment. I'm not convinced we do enough to make that process easy for people.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:32, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Jimbo, I've learned more about copyright law in five years of editing here than in 20 years as a lawyer! Intellectual property is a bit of a specialized field. There is such an option on WP's upload page here, but it is rather buried (look way, way at the bottom). Should it be made more prominent?--Wehwalt (talk) 00:20, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Foundation resolution on controversial content
Hi. A while back I asked for your understanding of the applicability of the above to this project [4]. At Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Muhammad_images/Workshop doubts have arisen about the meaning of your response. I wonder if you would consider clarifying your answer for us? I don't think we're asking for you to speak for the board here, just a clarification of your understanding of the resolution. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:16, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- As the editor who raised that concern, I'd like to ask as subsidary question. I would take that part of the board resolution as calling on either Commons or on all projects (whichever it is) to ensure that it exercises due care (as ought to be the case anyway) in ensuring that its content is appropriate to its mission and does not set out to shock without reason. I would not take it to suggest that any existing policy of en.wp is overridden or given a new interpretation. Is my reading correct? For my part, I am asking not just for your opinion but for the opinion of the board as far as you are able to communicate it. --FormerIP (talk) 02:32, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- In an issue as complex and fraught as this one, I am very reluctant to say much about the "opinion of the board". I can say with some confidence that detailed tea-leaf reading on the exact wording of the resolution is probably not the right approach. We crafted the resolution carefully, but not with layers and layers of analysis and opinion from lots of people; resolutions simply can't read in the same detailed way that Wikipedia policies (which are subjected to layers and layers of analysis and opinion from lots of people) can. I would say (speaking for myself) that the substance of the resolution is intended to apply to all Wikimedia projects in all languages, and that commons was singled out mainly because they have the biggest problems in this area (for various perfectly good reasons). In particular, the resolution mentions religious content and urges consideration of educational use and principle of least astonishment. Insofar as current policies do not adequately address those issues (which, by necessity, is up to us in the community to decide) then I think, contrary to FormerIP, that the resolution does imply overriding or reinterpreting (or, best case: rewriting) policy.
- All of that was speaking generally without reference to the specific issues in the content debate at hand.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:39, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. Andreas elicited a similar response to the first question from Ting Chen. [5] --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:34, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I have incorporated that into WP:GRATUITOUS. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 13:21, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
And gave it's own WP:POLA section for emphasis. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 14:41, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
And it was deleted. Oh, well. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 05:06, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Policy vs. guideline
A couple of editors pointed out that I've added it to a page that is "only a guideline" (See WP:AN and WP:VPP). I admit that the practical distinction is rather nebulous to me, even though I've read WP:POLICIES. I've added the material to what I though was most appropriate context in order to keep WMF-mandated and community-developed rules regarding controversial/offensive material on the same page. ¶ Should we move the principle to a separate page and tag it as policy-policy? The major problem is that the Resolution does not actually define the principle (of least astonishment), so on a stand-alone policy page it would make little by itself. And I don't know what level of authority the supporting material has (WG report, Image filter FAQ, Harrises report) in imposing Wikipedia policy. Maybe you can offer a solution here? ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:20, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
AN thread
I should note that there is an active discussion thread on this at WP:AN. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 22:57, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Just because I'm tired
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
God bless Yeats, and all the less besung kings of Éire… --Ludwigs2 05:49, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
WP:VER violation
While this looks like a legitimate discussion, it belongs on the talk page of the article |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=VRML&action=historysubmit&diff=468126612&oldid=468054756 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.191.238.112 (talk) 19:24, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
Rather foreseeing. If these refs will not return, some old text will be wiped in future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.191.238.99 (talk) 19:29, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
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suggeston
i have got a suggeston for a new wiki website, it is called "wikigame" do you like my suggeston — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oscar45596524 (talk • contribs) 17:05, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Have you checked here? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 17:06, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Minor barnstar | |
I'm awarding you this minor Barnstar for creating Wikipedia. Not bad. Keep it up and I expect you'll really go places. stufff (talk) 18:52, 29 December 2011 (UTC) |
Verifiablility not truth proposals are back again.
See Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability.
And there's still people arguing that if a secondary source says a phrase was first used in 1947, and we find a primary source that used it in 1945, we must keep the secondary source. Ken Arromdee (talk) 18:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Ken, thank you for bringing that sort of example to my attention. It's a good one.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:22, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
- That VNT issue is going to be in eternal Purgatory unless the WMF does something about it. It's not like we don't actually have a good policy wording about that issue in WP:OR. We do: "Appropriate sourcing can be a complicated issue, and these are general rules. Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of good editorial judgment and common sense, and should be discussed on article talk pages." ¶ It's just that VNT is now a cheap beer advert that's distorting Wikipedia's core mission. WP:5P layers NPOV on top of V and of OR as the real content goal. And IAR is parallel to NPOV. One can't possibly claim that writing an article according to a rigid set rules "this type of source always beats that other type and VNT is supreme" is actually based on 5P. But VNT has come to represent the transcription-monkey and for-dummies rule-set approach to writing articles. It's damaging both internally in terms of the enormous waste time around itself and its misapplication, and externally in terms of misrepresenting Wikipedia's goals and machinery. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 20:47, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- I have to chime in and second this. I understand the VNT principle is to keep WP grounded in reality and not people delusions of what the "truth" is. But sources that meet WP:V and even WP:RS can also be deluded, sometimes about things that are obvious/common knowledge. So in such circumstances, do we put what every reasonable person knows to be the case, or what some outlandish source says, that is somehow not WP:FRINGE. I've argued before that at some point there needs to be a bar set - a threshold / standard of sanity, for inculsion, that in the ultimate calculation can only determined by thoughtful, common sense editors, using their brains and WP:IAR where appropriate rather than blindly following some dogma to the letter but not the spirit. i loath the day when wikipedia becomes nothing more than a simulacrum of simulacra. we can do better than that. things like WP:FRINGE and article talk boilerplates and FAQs have often been the saving grace, but that's not always the case and there remain many instances of buried treasure and the like that will remain presumably until a very small select few editors very stubbornly and dogmatically applying VNT and some convoluted policies they made up themselves but think they didn't -- expire. things like that are very frustrating to everyone. and i think having improving on that core philosophical idea of what an encyclopedia is and how it works -- something a bit more discursive than just VNT -- can go a long way in alleviating those kinds of problems. Kevin Baastalk 20:59, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Agree too. How the recent poll, in which over 400 editors participated, with close to two-thirds (276 vs. 149) supporting, came to be closed as no consensus and no change will always remain something of a mystery to me. --JN466 23:12, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- I think that close was in error. It applied the wrong principle. It is not necessary to have 2/3rds majority to make a change to a policy page. It's valuable to avoid voting as much as possible and actually let the wiki process work, i.e. consecutive edits by people of good faith seeking a compromise that takes into account to the maximum degree possible the valid arguments on all sides. When we vote, we end up with this sort of absurdity, i.e. that we have a policy that a very strong majority of people don't approve of, to which there are perfectly valid objections which are not being answered. It's wrong.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:22, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
Slashdot
Seems like we're mentioned on Slashdot now. Just if you're wondering. —mc10 (t/c) 22:03, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
no page
there is a page called remote, there are 14 sentences to do with remote, on the 12th one, the page does not exist. please can you change/edit it. 09:09, 30 December 2011 (UTC)