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Hello, I was at Wikimania, but we didn't get the opportunity to meet :-(. I'll be in Gdansk 'till Tuesday evening, fwiw. If you're still around, perhaps we could meet up someplace? Else let's do a skype call or irc chat at some point in the coming week. I do agree that it's important to talk! :-) --[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] ([[User talk:Kim Bruning|talk]]) 09:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC) |
Hello, I was at Wikimania, but we didn't get the opportunity to meet :-(. I'll be in Gdansk 'till Tuesday evening, fwiw. If you're still around, perhaps we could meet up someplace? Else let's do a skype call or irc chat at some point in the coming week. I do agree that it's important to talk! :-) --[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] ([[User talk:Kim Bruning|talk]]) 09:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC) |
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== Investigation == |
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: This is Chris Hansen with Dateline NBC. I'm doing an investiagtion regarding internet predators on Wikipedia. If there is anything you would like to say, then you are free to reply. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/70.129.17.11|70.129.17.11]] ([[User talk:70.129.17.11|talk]]) 12:38, 12 July 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
Revision as of 12:40, 12 July 2010
(Manual archive list) |
Hello
Hello, Mr. Jimbo Wales. Please, I understand well that you are a busy man, but I have recently happened to notice something in several articles, and I must confess, I am somewhat curious as to their possible validity. It may be that these are complete fabrications, Mr. Wales, yet I have one query only, and I think it a legitimate one: Are such topics, including explicit content of, namely paedophilia, permitted on Wikipedia? I ask because the online encyclopedia, while very useful to many around the world, places extreme stress on near-total lack of POV, strong opposition of censorship of all kinds, and absolute neutrality.
It may be that such issues are not yours to handle, and that perhaps most users consider doing so beneath them. However, while perhaps some here might argue against this, there is the problem of legality; is such content legal, and what measures, if any, have you taken to stop users from posting such content? As quoted from one of the articles, “Wikipedia's continued interest in child sexual exploitation is troubling not only because the site hosts some questionable images, but because it can easily serve as a gateway to other sites containing child pornography.” I will confess that I personally think that such content should not be posted on Wikipedia, much less any kind of external link to other, even more dubious sites, and that it is indeed possible that at least some of those users contributing to certain articles, such as Child pornography, Lolicon, Shotacon, and many others, may indeed hold a genuine interest in such topics.
I am deeply concerned by this issue, and I would know what you think of this, and whether anything at all should be done. A policy of anti-censorship Wikipedia may have, but at least explain to me if such is legal concerning child pornography or topics involving paedophilia. Can such articles, explicitly gathering lists of books, or lists of films involving paedophiliac relationships or content (such as erotic photographs or comics), benefit Wikipedia’s community as a whole? I mean, I know that projects such as Unencyclopedia might include such topics, with apparently many there finding them humorous, but I did not expect such content to appear at all on Wikipedia. Perhaps you do not think this merits your attention, Mr. Wales, but at least comment once on whether you think such content should remain, and if such content is considered legal here.
Thank you for your time, and I beg you, understand: I truly would not waste my time or yours if I was not truly disturbed by this. Some parents just want to keep their children in a safer environment, and I hope that you can understand that; should the virtual world contain such content, if the real world is already filled with so much true sexual abuse? If you feel that you cannot or will not do anything about this, or that these allegations are completely false, at least tell me, and I will leave. But more people than you or other users may think are growing increasingly concerned over online child pornography, especially after recent scandalous events around the world, and I simply wish to convey their concerns. Whatever you choose to do or not to do, if you respond at all, you have my utmost thanks and gratitude.
Additionally, these are several of the articles I have found addressing this; these are merely articles I have found, and do not reflect my actual views necessarily, but they are indeed interesting, especially in their allegations and concerns; please review them if possible:
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
UmaraSon (talk) 12:16, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- You seem to have an issue with our Neutral Point of View policy. As writers of an encyclopedia, we must try to be as unbiased as possible on any subject. That doesn't mean we will refrain from posting positive or negative feedback on certain subjects. In fact, the NPOV-system means that when we define terms, make lists, write prose and supply information in general, we will publish facts without ever expressing our own opinion. However, when the facts include negative feedback from others, it is in most cases included. For example, the Plot, Cast and Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen#Production sections in the Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen are written in a completely bias-free style, however, its Reception section generally points out how badly-received the movie was by critics. In effect, the Neutral Point of View policy allows us to post a biased reaction if (a.) it is posted in a separate section, (b.) the opinions are from notable and reliable sources and (c.) if there is a balance between positive and negative feedback. Because pro-pedophilia opinions are basically non-existent in the media, you won't find such sections in the Pedophilia article. But to adhere with our policy, you won't see a section that bashes and condemns them either. You will find articles such as this one which describes the anti-pedophilia activism, but thats all it shall do: describe. If you believe the Neutral Point of View isn't being maintained in an article regarding to pedophilia, then by all means, point out the situation, because it can easily be corrected. If you instead believe maintaining a Neutral Point of View is counter-productive then you are visiting the wrong encyclopedia. An unbiased outlook on our subjects is necessary for Wikipedia to make sure it is a balanced and correct window of information for everyone to enjoy. Feedback ☎ 19:13, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think it is important that Wikipedia contain valid, neutral information about pedophilia - educating people about the issue is perfectly within our scope. We should not - and do not - allow people who are pro-pedophilia activists to distort these articles, just as we should not allow Wikipedia to be used as a platform for any sort of witch hunt. We are here to present the consensus view of reliable sources, not as platform for those who wish to put forward fringe views as valid.
- Much of the press on this issue has been so deeply misguided as to be laughable. This is unfortunate.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:57, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Have you or the WMF thought of doing advertising or more publicity events or just interviews with the media that would do more to correct the public's perception of Wikipedia? Alot is talked about on here about misconceptions of the public and the media about what Wikipedia is, and not just regarding stories about pedophilia on Wikipedia or pornography on Commons, but also about what kind of reliability Wikipedia has and what kind of a resource it is. I dont know if the WMF has the money and resources to do a campaign of the size that would be needed though.Camelbinky (talk) 20:58, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Hey
Jimbo, could you semi-protect my page, talk, and guestbook? It's unfair that I can't do that to my OWN stuff.~Wimpy Fanboy t g 22:57, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm probably not the best person to handle this request. But I'm sure someone will see it here and assist you in some way soon.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:58, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia-PT has become a mafia
Mr.Wales, I don't know if you can help me, but Wikipedia-PT is being used for political attacks, and administrators, silent and complicit, do nothing against the problem. Users who are in favor of the Brazilian political party that represents the left (PT) are editing all pages of policy to attack their opponents and the press in Brazil. User Dornicke is one of the worst in this respect, it acts like an employee paid by the PT to "control" the pages. Block requests have no effect! These users are placing texts without sources, rumors and other nonsense. Is there any possibility that you intervene? I no longer know where to turn. Wikipedia-pt is being turned into propaganda electoral politics. Thank you. 189.4.224.177 (talk) 01:10, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Link TbhotchTalk C. 01:15, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Many users have asked the block of this user Dornicke before, but administrators of Wikipedia-pt, apparently, protect all nonsense and vandalism committed by this user. He inserts rumors, texts without sources and general accusations about opponents of the PT and nothing happens to him.189.4.224.177 (talk) 01:47, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is no way to Jimbo or WMF to solve other Wikipedias' problem because there is no 'global administrator' in Wikipedia. In the other hand, the language barrier make it hard to follow the situation. I think you should try to solve this problem yourself in the local community. You may open a vote to request-for-deadminship against these administrators if you're right.--AM (talk) 02:03, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Totally impossible, they ignore my requests because I'm a single IP. Registrated users have "superpowers" in Wikipedia-pt and IP are garbage to the administrators. If I registrate, they will put me into a eternal ban because I'm questioning their mafia. I can do nothing. I was hoping you could do something, this is unnaceptable, political articles in Wikipedia-pt are being used to distribute passionality, angry and hate, personal opinions and another absurd to readers. A small sample: This user Dornicke created this two categories now: "Journals that defended 1964 dictatorship in Brazil". and "Journals that not defended 1964 dictatorship in Brazil", encouraging hatred and political division. I'm losing all hope in the Wikipedia project, and I will miss completely if you get me saying they can only watch Wikipedia-pt become a mere blog, that psychopaths do whatever they want and try to take the brain of the population of my country. 189.4.224.177 (talk) 02:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
"This article is a Disgrace to Wikipedia"
Not my words but those of a recent visitor to Prem Rawat. A few years ago this article attracted considerable controversy when Rawat followers (headed by 'administrator' Jossi Fresco) conducted a massive and consistent clean-up operation of all articles even remotely connected to the subject. Most editors then simply gave up in the face of such zealous partisanship. There followed Arbcoms etc and the main offending followers were banned for a year. Most of those with interest and experience to edit the article had already thrown in the towel faced with the mammoth task of reconstructing the remaining mess. The banned followers have now returned with doubled determination to finish their job. Current impartial editors (attracted mainly by the controversy rather than knowledge of the subject) do not see the insiduous extent of misinformation but continue to express that the article appears disgracefully biased (as indicated above). A few exhausted editors think that to leave it alone is a preferable compromise. Their roles are now reduced to endless arguing over minutiae thrown at them by filibustering Rawat followers. No-one can possibly get around to tackling the bigger problems in these conditions. I'd like to but (like many others who've given up) don't have time to get past the 'owners' of the article. It's surely a major weakness that, despite all the mechanisms Wikipedia has in place to assure accuracy and fairness, determined partisans can successfully gain the upper hand over the years in this way. PatW (talk) 12:41, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, can you give me a list of 5-10 articles in this area to read, along with what you think to be the best 10 or so reliable sources to read? I can't become an instant expert, of course, but I could learn enough about the area to be able to make a more informed judgment and to study this case in more depth.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:30, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Will do... after the match :-) PatW (talk) 19:38, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- There was a match? (Haha, just an anti-American joke of sorts!) I am waiting for the world to get interested in a truly global sporting event like... the World Series!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:32, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Will do... after the match :-) PatW (talk) 19:38, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Hello, I'm another editor from the Prem Rawat article, (I discovered the article as a mediator) and I would like to give you a slightly less extreme version of what PatW said above (no offense Pat, but you can get a bit extreme at times). Essentially, the article is under an extensive review to ensure that it complies with the current BLP policies. While doing this, a couple of editors noted (NickWright, PatW, and one or two others) that the article seemed a bit clean for such a controversial figure. PatW proposed the addition of a "Criticsims" box, but as you and I both know, those are POV and troll magnets that are often rife with poor writing. I suggested that we reivew the avalible sources and include critical content within the main body of the article. That's about where we are at this point in time. I can give you a couple of sources if you would like, but the best person to contact regarding Prem Rawat sources would be Will Beback a longtome editor of teh article who has composed a library of Rawat materials. Also in regards to sources, I am currently in the process of vetting some of the more controversial sources to ensure BLP compliance. Ronk01 talk, 01:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Food for thought
If action is not taken to ensure that your users do not have to endure abuse like this, wikipedia's active membership will continue to decline.
I accept that my actions may have fuelled the comments, and therefore am not necessarily calling for sanctions (beyond preventing this user from contacting me if technically possible, I'm happy to have a similar restriction placed upon myself). But I think it's worth bearing in mind. WFC (talk) 23:30, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
definition of an organization-public relationship
Jimmy:
Congrats on some fine work, esp. on the section on rel. man. I have a small problem which occurs not only here but in several points in the OPR literature. A definition of an OPR is cited to Broom, et al.,1997. Well and good. However, our definition of an OPR is cited as in the 1998 article, when I believe it was in the earlier (1997) article. A concern, in addition to facutal matter is that it reinforces the impression some have left that we (Led/Bruning, et al) were writing in reaction to Broom, and I've seen terms such as "responded," "resurrected," and the like used in that capacity, when in fact both 1997 articles were developed completely independent of each other. The 1998 article, on the other hand, did specifically react to some of Glen's observations (in a positive manner) as well as extending our 1997 research by quantifying our qualitative efforts in identifying relationship dimensions.
Appreciate your assistance, Jimmy, and keep up the good work.
John Ledingham —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.229.72 (talk) 02:49, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Gdansk
Hello, I was at Wikimania, but we didn't get the opportunity to meet :-(. I'll be in Gdansk 'till Tuesday evening, fwiw. If you're still around, perhaps we could meet up someplace? Else let's do a skype call or irc chat at some point in the coming week. I do agree that it's important to talk! :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 09:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC)