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(2 - major reason) Taxonomy is NEVER fully objective, and the page is my take on the relevant "facts" (though still based only on (my interpretation of) published sources). If others add their opinions to my page, the result would be chaos. SERIOUS BIOLOGISTS CAN NEVER TAKE WIKISPECIES SERIOUSLY UNLESS THERE IS SOME WAY TO BE CONFIDENT OF GETTING CONSISTENT/RELIABLE INFORMATION. I believe that protecting my page provides usefully consistent information to serious biologists, while at the same time not preventing others from expressing their opinions, for anyone can still create an alternative 'New Zealand' page (using a disambiguated title) and link it to the relevant taxon pages independently of me. From their perspective, it is as good as being able to edit my page. So, I am not trying to stop others from expressing their opinions, I am just trying to stop them from fiddling with my opinions! |
(2 - major reason) Taxonomy is NEVER fully objective, and the page is my take on the relevant "facts" (though still based only on (my interpretation of) published sources). If others add their opinions to my page, the result would be chaos. SERIOUS BIOLOGISTS CAN NEVER TAKE WIKISPECIES SERIOUSLY UNLESS THERE IS SOME WAY TO BE CONFIDENT OF GETTING CONSISTENT/RELIABLE INFORMATION. I believe that protecting my page provides usefully consistent information to serious biologists, while at the same time not preventing others from expressing their opinions, for anyone can still create an alternative 'New Zealand' page (using a disambiguated title) and link it to the relevant taxon pages independently of me. From their perspective, it is as good as being able to edit my page. So, I am not trying to stop others from expressing their opinions, I am just trying to stop them from fiddling with my opinions! |
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<br />Sincerely, <br /> |
<br />Sincerely, <br /> |
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[[User:Stho002|Stho002]] ([[User talk:Stho002|talk]]) 03:59, 28 November 2008 (UTC) |
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== Happy Thanksgiving! == |
== Happy Thanksgiving! == |
Revision as of 03:59, 28 November 2008
General question regarding community policies in national wikipedia branches.
It seems (as of today) that I am on the receiving end of editorial zeal in the Croatian Wikipedia. I say this to give context, my question is not about the particular incident but about wikipedia policies in general in cases that may be similar in nature and can be summed in essence as destruction of content as part of dispute resolution.
My first question is related to the standard of protecting wikipedia contributors and the community by displaying the full set of interaction guidelines on a prominent place on the wikipedia home page. The english version has the relevant content in the section on the left titled "Interaction". It is fairly easy to find information relevant to interacting properly with the community.
Is there a way to ensure there is a standard way to get to this information on all local wikipedia sites?
I am looking at the Croatian version, and the "Interaction" section is completelly missing from the left side. And the standards dispute resolution pages are buried in the third level.
As a contributor to wikipedia, my work has been removed for what I believe was editorial zeal, and not a specific policy violation (since none was ever quoted). Language style, while ok to call for imporovements upon, should not be the grounds of page removal. Moreover, editors should abstain from personal qualifications of the contributors. In my case, the editors have qualified myself as (I quote) a: "worshiper" of the subject of the article (a Croatian rock band). Rightfully inflammed by the provoking label attached to myself, I returned the favor with equal eloquence not on the content page but on the discussion page, after which the editor(s) have blocked my IP address and thus effectively banned me from contributing further. Note, the content itself was never subject to any serious discussion of its merits, in fact the ban was placed after I wrote a long piece on my views of the style issues which were raised.
Now this is a somewhat long lead to what I believe is the fundamental problem. If the standard of conduct of some editors in the Croatian wikipedia is at this level, then I am afraid that more information could have been lost by editorial zeal, or even agenda, which goes beyond the wikipedia policies. Before you dismiss me lightly given the (I agree) some personal circumstances in this story you should consider two facts. It has been reported in major Croatian media that the government of Croatia is using its own resources to stem the tide of popular revulsion against the government on the Internet following a series of high profile mafia style executions which shook Croatia in the past several months (including one of a major journalist figure). Second, it is indicative that the editor who decided to ban me has an avid interest in fighter planes. I am not saying, but it smells, of military interference into editorial policies. This wouldn't be a suprise in more democratic countries, let alone in Croatia. One thing is sure, the IP ban was executed military tribunal style, no judge, or jury. The larger point and my second and last question.
Would it not make sense for non-editors, or even banned users, to be able to (in read only mode) review editing decisions and edits done by the editors and other administrators. Specifically, IP ban decision and content deletions?
I believe a measure like this one would help affected contributors in preparing their argument towards the conduct of a given editor/administrator and will help the community protect the content and information stored in wikipedia.
Thank you. Debic. (empty comment for archiving purposes. Fram (talk) 10:05, 27 November 2008 (UTC))
Assyrian people
Hey there! I didn't know where else to go so I will make this quick as you are probably really busy.
From the beginning of the Assyrian people's article we've had problems with the ongoing nameconflict. Some identify as Syriacs other as Chaldeans or Assyrians. We have had this nameconflict going on for two long, for years. I want to ask you to move the page from Assyrian people to Assyrian/Syriac people and lock it if able. Thanks --Yohanun (talk) 17:40, 21 November 2008 (UT
Where's the colour gone?
This place looks like a black and white TV move. What happened? Rory the Slitheen (talk) 20:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
- The servers are in the United States, so all the colour has been changed to color. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 01:30, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Fine - where's the color? Rory stomps off, realisling that Australian English is not tolerated Rory the Slitheen (talk) 20:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
a suggestion to improve Wikipedia's credibility
I wrote this up a couple years back, but it wasn't brought up for discussion. See User:Kowloonese#credibility.2C_quality_control_etc.
IMO, an expert's approval mechanism can bring credibility to an approved snapshot of wikipedia without affecting daily activity of the original wikipedia.
Let me know what you think about this idea.
Kowloonese (talk) 03:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at how flagged revisions works. I think you may find it interesting to integrate your proposal with the details of how that software works. In general, I support the notion of some kind of lightweight certification process, and especially things that can be tried without affecting daily activity.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:29, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
- The key of my proposal is to establish an entry point to a creditable encyclopedia. It does not help the public confidence if they know some good revisions are somewhere deep inside the pile, but there is no guarantee that the public knows which revisions are credible. Currently, most critics say wikipedia.org is not quotable academically because of vandalism and there is no known person standing behind the articles. So in a sense, the reputation is already ruined. It is good for research, but not good for reference. So you need to create a new brandname that only serves the best and approved revisions. It is like the Lexus rolling out of a Toyota factory, the customers know they are not getting just a Toyota. When the visitors view a page from credible-pedia.org, they know for sure no garbage makes it out of the contaminated wikipedia source. Another thing to promote bibliographic references is to set up a clean linking systems that guarantee the correct revision is pulled when the user click on it. e.g. http://en.credible-pedia.org/wiki/Jimbo Wales:7834 freeze the reference at revision 7834.
Kowloonese (talk) 03:56, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Jimbo - if you put your weight behind flagged revisions, I would pay a florist to deliver flowers to you - and I'm too poor to pay income tax. WilyD 04:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Kowloonese, are you familiar with Veropedia? That is already effectively doing what you are proposing. J Milburn (talk) 20:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sound like Veropedia is a snapshot duplicate of the Wikipedia, i.e. a branched copy. How often is it updated? It is not exactly what I have in mind. I was thinking about one single source control database with a different view to filter what should be presented to the viewers depending on the viewers' specified tolerance of vandalism and unverified info. One user may see the original wikipedia as is, and another user may only see an approved filtered revision. Kowloonese (talk) 10:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
- Kowloonese, are you familiar with Veropedia? That is already effectively doing what you are proposing. J Milburn (talk) 20:54, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Jimbo - if you put your weight behind flagged revisions, I would pay a florist to deliver flowers to you - and I'm too poor to pay income tax. WilyD 04:05, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Featured articles
I know that any mention of money on wikipeda gets people flustered but have you ever considered as scheme whereby editors are given incentives if they develop an article to FA or GA? Improving quality is of primary importance but the number of Good Articles and Featured articles we have in relation to number of articles I'm sure you'll agree it extremely low. I wondered if editors were given a discount book -e-voucher or coupon or amazon.com voucher for every article they significantly contribute to and successfully promote it to FA whether or not it might speed up the process? If editors thought they could work towards earning a token for working hard on an article I'm convinced it would give them more of an incentive to do so. Also some form of book voucher may also result in the purchase of a book which in turn may be used as a reference to improve content on another article so it may be a productive process. Are you strictly opposed to anything like this Mr. Wales? Do you think the idea would have any success in speeding up the rate at which the number of articles are featured? Count Blofeld 14:36, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- We do already have the reward board, where users can offer their own rewards for specific accomplishments (including raising a given article to GA/FA). I assume you are talking about the Wikimedia Foundation giving money itself though, which is a different matter. the wub "?!" 18:11, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't mean money; that word is "taboo" on here. I mean a funding scheme for rewarding editors with e-vouchers who develop articles to featured status. If wikipedia really cared about quality and that "we are trying to focus on quality" as is claimed in the media we for sure would be trying to increase the rate at which articles reach featured status. If quality is of primary concern why not encourage editors to work harder at achieving it with a proper reward scheme rather than just the odd personal offer five times a year by people? I've brought it up at meta wiki. Count Blofeld 21:08, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Oversight
Hi Jimbo. Are you aware of the oversight policy? There is an allegation that David Gerard abused his oversight privileges to remove embarrassing edits made by FT2 to unfairly aid his arbcom candidacy last year. Fred Bauder has confirmed the oversights took place. There are allegations that you were aware of it.
Could you please explain how these oversights were within policy, and if not, why Gerard still has the oversight privilege. Could you explain why another editor (who had contributed to the project for over five years) was banned for bringing it to light? --Duk 18:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
I have asked David Gerard and FT2 to fill me in about the history. I have reviewed the oversight logs, and read Thatcher's summary of the situation, which as far as I know appears to be factually accurate. It is evening here, and I am going to bed. I am leaving Europe early tomorrow morning for the US, and then I will be celebrating the Thanksgiving holiday on Thursday, and traveling by car to a meeting with a Brazilian Wikipedian on Friday. I don't expect to have substantial time to devote to my Wikipedia work until Saturday at the earliest.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:03, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for looking into this, and have a nice Thanksgiving. --Duk 23:29, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
A Question
Hello,
First off I want to thank you for creating Wikipedia. What is your opinion/position on editors who are trying to improve Wikipedia by fighting/removing fringe theories/POV's, yet are using disruption tactics and battles? These same editors are constantly being called for their actions on AN/I. Yet, it is to the point that the admin's on AN/I have taken a stand of looking the other way with these editors because they feel that while the disruptions are inappropriate, they (the admins) do not want to do anything to these users because the users are trying to improve Wikipedia and are fighting the good fight. This has led to these editors being emboldened to bring more disruption the articles and ignore concerns of other editors who are also there to improve the article, by radically improve/change articles they feel needs drastic change.
Thanks for taking the time to read and reply. Brothejr (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Woe and woe in Ireland
Jimmy, The mess over in the Ireland articles has been going on for years, with a clique of about 10 editors filibustering and preventing any change to the article naming conventions. It's driving us mad, and preventing the articles themselves from being improved. Somehow I think we need binding arbitration. Not that I'm asking you to do it; but I would ask you to have a look. A number of us think that the most sensible proposal is to move Ireland to Ireland (island), Ireland (disambiguation) to Ireland, and Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state). That's a compromise over an alternative, which is to move Ireland to Ireland (island), keep Ireland (disambiguation) where it is, and move Republic of Ireland to Ireland. If you'd like to enter the hornets' nest, please see Talk:Ireland#Proposed_move_to_Ireland_.28island.29 and Talk:Ireland_(disambiguation)#Proposed_move_to_Ireland. Go raibh míle maith agat. -- Evertype·✆ 08:59, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
A Wikispecies dispute
Hello, I am a newly appointed Wikispecies admin. I am in dispute with mainly one other admin (Lycaon - who was also the only admin to vote against my adminship). I'm not sure if you are the right person to talk to about this, but anyway, it concerns my right to protect a single page that I created (http://species.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Stho002/New_Zealand). My reasons for wanting to protect it are as follows:
(1 - minor reason) I am doing this (in the spirit of Wikispecies) without pay, but there are others here who are trying to extract funding for similar projects, and there could be "conflicts of interest";
(2 - major reason) Taxonomy is NEVER fully objective, and the page is my take on the relevant "facts" (though still based only on (my interpretation of) published sources). If others add their opinions to my page, the result would be chaos. SERIOUS BIOLOGISTS CAN NEVER TAKE WIKISPECIES SERIOUSLY UNLESS THERE IS SOME WAY TO BE CONFIDENT OF GETTING CONSISTENT/RELIABLE INFORMATION. I believe that protecting my page provides usefully consistent information to serious biologists, while at the same time not preventing others from expressing their opinions, for anyone can still create an alternative 'New Zealand' page (using a disambiguated title) and link it to the relevant taxon pages independently of me. From their perspective, it is as good as being able to edit my page. So, I am not trying to stop others from expressing their opinions, I am just trying to stop them from fiddling with my opinions!
Sincerely,
Stho002 (talk) 03:59, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Happy Thanksgiving!