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from across the border <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.231.172.215|99.231.172.215]] ([[User talk:99.231.172.215|talk]]) 03:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
from across the border <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/99.231.172.215|99.231.172.215]] ([[User talk:99.231.172.215|talk]]) 03:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:Even if you didn't happen to be a returning blocked user, your edits were extremely disruptive and blatantly pushing your pro-Indian point of view. I'd have blocked you for that anyways, and I suspect most admins would have as well. [[User:The Blade of the Northern Lights|The Blade of the Northern Lights]] ([[User talk:The Blade of the Northern Lights|<font face="MS Mincho" color="black">話して下さい</font>]]) 04:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:37, 28 May 2012
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We should be more careful
Wouldn't it have been right to have taken into consideration all of Rich Farmborough's contributions and value to the project before the decision was made to shut him down? It seems unjust to have taken such a severe action without having weighed the good as well as the bad. These few things he supposedly did wrong were all they talked about. They did not weigh everything he was doing right against the things they didn't like. The many reasons NOT to have taken this action were not taken into account! How could it have been right not to have weighed the cons as well as the pros of shutting him down? Should guidelines be changed to ensure that such severe actions in the future not be taken without first checking to see how much harm they would be causing? Chrisrus (talk) 04:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- So, if a user has made a lot of good contributions, that means they are immune to any block or any action the community or ArbCom dare take? If so, I know quite a few editors who could be unbanned and unblocked from Wikipedia for that reason alone. --MuZemike 07:02, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- It is rather sad, but if one can't reason with people and they go ahead with things despite being under restrictions to not do so what else can one do? It certainly is worth inspecting the circumstances that allowed/drove him as some other prolific contributors seem to have gone off the rails the same way. Is it a god complex? Is arbcom just too hidebound that they feel they have to ignore it? Do they feel that they must do what they do within IAR because the alternative is worse for Wikipedia? Is the percentage of reasonable responses they get so low they think they all are silly? Has dealing with vandals just turned them into the Hulk like berserkers or Cú Chulainn in a warp spasm? I haven't the foggiest why but if there is a basic reason it certainly would be worth trying to fix. Dmcq (talk) 11:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Although I didn't start the Arbcom case (and truth be told probably wouldn't have started it under my own steam at that point - I was hoping that the month block if it stuck would have brought him round), I feel I tried everything else with Rich from coaxing to dropping a (metaphorical) anvil on his head. I think the project itself has changed - there's now a huge mass of established content, and automated editing is much more seen as a risk to that establishment. There is a new generation of users who did not come in when the project was exciting and new, and IAR was the only rule, and they can't see why someone should be allowed to keep running a bot with as many bugs as HPB had. Other bot users have adapted (or given up and left, or been banned.....). You can see it as well in editors of very long standing who say the project is no longer 'fun', there are too many little rules, too much obsessing over X or Y or whatever.
- I'm not sure why it was necessary to launch what reads like an attack on Arbcom though. The community wants Arbcom to remain a final level of dispute resolution, not act as Nanny McPhee. It's hard to see what action Arbcom could have taken prior to the case. The community tried lesser sanctions that were simply ignored. Suggestions as to what the community could do at an earlier stage would be helpful though. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:33, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Didn't mean to attack them, in fact I don't really differentiate between the thrones powers and principalities of Wikipedia. Just that people can be annoyed by the problems of dealing with anything but civility issues, you can see this with the way AndyTheGrump went on above and the way people tried to frame that as a civility issue so it is a possible reason for people getting the hump. I wouldn't in fact do anything about that, as I said there I'd just make RF/C's be binding for a limited time - civility can be invoked for edit warring against that and it would leave people time to cool down even if the results were less than perfect. It would leave people freer to combat hard working POV pushers. Dmcq (talk) 18:24, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Elen, the point is that Arbcom screwed up royally on this. Of course I would say that wouldn't I. And if I was saying it alone I'd be saying it quietly, to myself, or to the walls of a padded cell. But the fact is that there are a significant number of people who have actually got involved on my behalf, and many more who have left messages of support on my talk page, at the case pages, or by email. Without rehashing the case, the matter that the case was about was disposed of before the case started (and I served a 1 month block for it - effectively for your failure to understand the technicalities) the rest was brought up by vexatious users. Wentaxis withdrew his evidence commenting "I hadn't realised this was a cat fight between users". For such indeed it was. Arbcom rather than using their heads took a lazy approach and endorsed the rubbish already generated by passive-aggressive users, and so instead of righting a wrong and emerging protectors of the wiki, they compounded it. Rich Farmbrough, 13:45, 27 May 2012 (UTC).
- I'm not sure why it was necessary to launch what reads like an attack on Arbcom though. The community wants Arbcom to remain a final level of dispute resolution, not act as Nanny McPhee. It's hard to see what action Arbcom could have taken prior to the case. The community tried lesser sanctions that were simply ignored. Suggestions as to what the community could do at an earlier stage would be helpful though. Elen of the Roads (talk) 11:33, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Elen said: "huge mass of established content, and automated editing is much more seen as a risk to that establishment." Whilst I would agree that automation can be a risk, the community model of Wikipedia means that automation is now more necessary than ever. Rich has always acted responsibly in not damaging content; he has always gone back and tidied up messes of his own making; he has always been civil but occasionally curt. Many of those who were against his actions held to that strict notion that it is unacceptable for a bot to make a single mistake, or to save any inconsequential change. I have witnessed the hounding and drubbing Rich experienced at the hands of such users, some of whom were admins themselves. He has been much more receptive and tolerant of such treatment than I would ever have been. So in short I believe Rich has been done a huge disservice. With the ruling, it has also shot itself in the foot. The community has been deprived of the services of second if not the supremely prolific cleaner-upper in Wikipedia, and all that over a few thousand inconsequential edits and couple of hundred categories (that nobody but Rich understood the function of) being created. This decision tends to cement the notion that Arbcom tends to mete out "least worse" remedies than one that is best for the project. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 14:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I remember the last time a botop got booted. His supporters made several similar arguments. "But he's so valuable!", "we can't live without these bots!", etc. Truth is, Wikipedia didn't miss a beat when that editor was finally community banned. In Rich's case, far too much time was being wasted dealing with his buggy bots and refusal to conform both to his editing restrictions and to expected behaviour of botops. That is unfortunate, but frankly, it was getting to the point where the good Rich brings was being outdone by the bad. Bots are not only extremely useful, but at this point in Wikipedia's development, are practically necessary. But that fact does not mean operators should be given carte blanche. There are expectations, and any editor not willing to follow them should not be operating bots. It's just that simple. Resolute 14:53, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
@ MuZemike: No, if a user has made a lot of good contributions, it would therefore not mean that they would be immune to any block or action the community of ArbCom dare take. Their good contributions should be among factors taken into account when making such decisions.
@ Dmcq and Elen: You seem to have summarized the situation that led to the decision, as RF having repeatedly refused to cooperate with decisions made by the group, leaving us with no choice but to shut him down forever. This is the type of summary we need for the general community, who don’t all understand the accusations against him. If you would, please expand on this summary a bit, as it’s not easy to understand why the decision was made, and what the dispute was about. We need a bit more detail than you have given, but no more detail than would be helpful for the average reader with no particular technical expertise to understand. By simply looking at the link at the top of this talk page section, it’s not exactly clear what it was all about.
@ Dmcq:
You then go on to speak as if you would not have decided this case as they did, leaving me a bit confused as to your position.
@ Elen, Dmcq and Resolute: Let’s accept that Arbcom had no choice but to shut him down. Even so, would you not agree that, if the positive aspects had been taken into account, they might have decided to do something else in addition to shutting him down? For example, the committee could have decided to shut him down, but also to send him a barnstar of thanks or a plate of cookies. Or maybe they could have asked that certain exceptions be made for certain things that might have been important that he might be needed to do if that could be established. My general point is that even if the committee had no choice but to shut RF down, they might have shut him down in a slightly different way had they been fully informed about everything he was doing so that, perhaps for example, the shutdown might be done smoothly and in a less disruptive way for the project. The point is even if they didn't have a choice but to shut him down, they might have decided to also do other things in addition to shutting him down, or to shut him down differently, or to make exceptions if one were warrented because they would have known about project he was in the middle of, such as the one I was working on with him. Or decided to also balance the action with some token of appreciation if it could be determined that such was in order.
@Resolute I'm interested in learning more about the last time this happened and your recollection of it, as I wasn't there. As I read this your post, you may be saying that "supporters" were then allowed to present the person's contributions and value to the project. Although, as you recall, it turned out that those supporters greatly exaggerated the person's value to the project in that case. As you recall, was the supporters' case taken into account as a part of the decision-making process at that time? I understand that it turned out that the supporters were wrong in that case, and the person's contributions weren't particularly necessary or valuable, but it I think you may agree that just because that was true in that case doesn’t necessarily mean that it is necessarily true in this case as well, or in all such cases forever.
You say that, in your judgement, the bad RF did had begun to outweigh the good. How do you know, how did the committee know, that you are right about that if the good was not a factor in the decision-making process? While you seem to be fully aware of all the good he was doing, there is no sign in the link at the top of this section that it was taken into account. By saying that, in your opinon, the bad RF did had begun to outweigh the good, I hear some acknowledgement that such weighing of these two sides would is proper to do, and therein I think there may be an inroad I could take persuade you to agree to support such "good" being presented to the committee making such decisions in the future. Chrisrus (talk) 01:07, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'll just answer the question addressed to me. I agree with the decision and I think it was correct. I am very sorry however that things came down to that and I'd like us to find and fix any problems that are liable to contribute to something like that happening. Dmcq (talk) 14:33, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- As a general rule, I prefer not to speak ill of the dead, so to speak, but I am referring to Betacommand's first ban (he's currently serving another). This can be considered a generalization as I have seen it numerous times with other editors who do not operate bots: Well known figures on Wikipedia tend to attract a cadre of supporters. If, however, their actions become disruptive or uncivil, they start to attract detractors as well. The end result is an unending drama tug of war that returns over and over again, wasting the community's time, with each battle won by ensuring your supporters continue to outnumber your detractors. A bot operator has the ability to make the lives of a great many editors much easier, or much more difficult. The problem here is that, regardless of how good his intentions may have been, Rich's bots have a very long history of errors and he has a history of using his bots to make sloppy and/or unnecessary changes that require cleanup by other users. The result is that the community has been forced, repeatedly, to try and intervene. Notwithstanding the fact that ANI has an abysmal record when it comes to containing drama rather than fostering it, that Rich has his own ANI subpage with multiple archives is telling. The community has faced the same complaints for at least three full years, and likely longer than that, with no resolution. Thus ArbCom was called to resolve it. As to recognizing the good Rich brings, I think the judgment itself does, albeit not as obviously as you hoped. Betacommand has been community banned, and after his return, further issues resulted in a new ban by ArbCom. Rich was banned from using automated tools, but otherwise remains an editor in good standing. That is telling, imo. Personally, I hope that Rich ultimately regains the ability to use bots - we did give Beta another such opportunity after all - but I won't lie. If the same problems continue to follow, the community and ArbCom will probably be less forgiving the second time around. Resolute 14:48, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- that Rich has his own ANI subpage with "multiple archives" See this is interesting. I mildly objected to this being created and was told "It won't be used against you" it's for convenience. Of course there is no summary, that this was one or two editors raising problems. That in many cases I was exonerated. And so forth. In a similar vein someone (I wish I'd noted who and where) remarked "Just search the AN/I archive for his name and see how many hits you get" of course that returns hundreds of hits, I was an active administrator for 6 years! Rich Farmbrough, 13:49, 27 May 2012 (UTC).
- that Rich has his own ANI subpage with "multiple archives" See this is interesting. I mildly objected to this being created and was told "It won't be used against you" it's for convenience. Of course there is no summary, that this was one or two editors raising problems. That in many cases I was exonerated. And so forth. In a similar vein someone (I wish I'd noted who and where) remarked "Just search the AN/I archive for his name and see how many hits you get" of course that returns hundreds of hits, I was an active administrator for 6 years! Rich Farmbrough, 13:49, 27 May 2012 (UTC).
As one of the people who has commented actively about that case its more than just a matter of wether Rich did what. Its a matter of how the case was brought up, developed and implemented. Several points are so vague even the Arbs can't explain exactly what they mean or how they will be implemented. There are so many flaws and problems with the whole situation that I dare not even bother listing them here. The bottom line is that Rich made some mistakes but the majority of the case was based on reporting of minor edits, many of which would be required to be done if the article was promoted to or beyond GA. Rich was hounded incesently by 2 or three editors who would keep Rich in almost constant debate for months at a time over the most minute aspect of any edit that he did. Arbcom has made a lot of bad or questionable decisions over the last few months on a variety of cases and this is only the most recent. Arguably Arbcom made the decision to ban Rich from automation to protect the pedia but its the pedia that will be punished from a lack of the edits he was doing. Kumioko (talk) 17:50, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
Such committees should consider not only the reasons to shut a person down, but also the reasons not to do so. This case, Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Rich Farmbrough closed, was closed without considering the reasons not to shut Rich down. The other side of the story was not presented. In the future, reasons not to shut someone down should be weighed as well. This is just being careful about such an important decision. We should be more careful next time.
Supporters of the decision may be correct. Maybe the harm Rich was causing outweighed his value to the project. Maybe the committee would have agreed if they had weighed both. We don't know. They didn’t have that chance. So please agree, in the future, such committees should be asked to consider any important reasons not to shut someone down. Chrisrus (talk) 06:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
The thing that is galling is not that I "lost" - doubtless that's purely my own incompetence at presenting my case, but that the good work put in by NewYorkBrad, who had to go inactive, was wasted. We (me and NewYorkBrad) were working for a solution - the other parties weren't very interested, until they saw the somewhat draconian proposed decision, then, to give them credit, they did talk about possible solutions. But the whole thing was done in a sloppy manner, recused arbs voting, decision implemented before close, no option to simply turn the bots off, they had to be blocked in mid edit (which is downright rude). And it's fairly clear that - and arbs have confirmed it - preconceived ideas and ignoring my submissions sunk me before I started. When I was refused an adjournment to present a rebuttal, I knew things were seriously broken, and the more I look (I have time to do that now) the more I'm finding is broken. Hints of other problems are bubbling under. Hopefully we can look at these broken procedures and policies and rebuild something workable and accountable, ideally an imaginative, healing and constructive body, rather than one which dispenses the judgement of Solomon. Rich Farmbrough, 09:12, 27 May 2012 (UTC).
- I'd very much welcome seeing some of your energy used on trying to fix the internal problems Wikipedia has. I would concentrate not on the final part but on the early parts that led up to it as that is the part encountered by most people. Like problems dealing with WP:CRUSH and meat-puppetry. In general ethics are determined by the top so addressing the top level problems first could be right, but I thik in the case of Wikipedia I think if the general environment was made better the problems for admins would be much easier and they would not feel inclined to do things like provoke civility issues just so something can be handled as a civility dispute. Dmcq (talk) 11:06, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oh absolutely, that happened. I spend what time I can at Teahouse and I'm hoping we can fix some of the problems with ArbCom. But the basic problem is incivility and incompetence. I feel uncivil bringing up the second point, but it is important. If people are obsessively reverting other users, they are incompetent. If they have trouble managing their temper in a simple conversation they are incompetent. If they can only interact by making snide remarks they are incompetent. If they use technical terms they don't understand they are incompetent. If they cite evidence and forget it's from a private email they are incompetent. If they forget their personal undertakings and break them they are incompetent. Working with people like this is fine if they accept their limitations, apologise for them and are improving or avoiding situations where they will occur. But most of them deny and shift the blame. Rich Farmbrough, 18:55, 27 May 2012 (UTC).
- Oh absolutely, that happened. I spend what time I can at Teahouse and I'm hoping we can fix some of the problems with ArbCom. But the basic problem is incivility and incompetence. I feel uncivil bringing up the second point, but it is important. If people are obsessively reverting other users, they are incompetent. If they have trouble managing their temper in a simple conversation they are incompetent. If they can only interact by making snide remarks they are incompetent. If they use technical terms they don't understand they are incompetent. If they cite evidence and forget it's from a private email they are incompetent. If they forget their personal undertakings and break them they are incompetent. Working with people like this is fine if they accept their limitations, apologise for them and are improving or avoiding situations where they will occur. But most of them deny and shift the blame. Rich Farmbrough, 18:55, 27 May 2012 (UTC).
Adopt the Swedish System?
- Have mandatory admin term limits as Swedish WP: We have discussed this problem before, where every admin should lose power, either after 1 year, as on Swedish Wikipedia, or perhaps every 3 years, if annual re-elections seem too tedious. On svwiki, the typical desysoping ordeals were found to leave after-the-fact resentment scars. So terms were limited to 1 year (beginning in 2006), and when an admin fell outside accepted norms, the re-election would fail to re-gain the minimum support percentage as required of new admins. In emergencies, svwiki can still desysop rogue admins at any moment, but by having annual re-elections (held each quarter, roughly 1 year after an admin was approved), then there is a easy safety valve to rethink adminship without the head-to-head "dramah" and long-term resentments. Also, considering, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" then perhaps knowing the admin power is limited, not absolute beyond one year, might further steer an admin into a more centrist attitude with other users. The tactic is to make desysoping "no big deal" and valuable editors can continue to contribute without the psychological scar (or resentment) of having been "ostracized" like Socrates, who decided to stay and drink the Hemlock (as a martyr) at age 80, rather than flee as a ban from Athens to visit other civilized cities. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- This discussion is about ArbCom, not admins. That said, re-elections would just be a drama magnet for anyone the admin has offended. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 15:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Re-electing 1500 admins every year sounds like a major bureaucratic ordeal. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Less than that. People like myself wouldn't even bother. But then, I'm a content admin, so the biggest loss if I wasn't an admin is my own editing time, and therefore Wikipedia's content, as I would have to file reports on vandals for another admin to block (thus clogging those processes) rather that just pushing the button myself. Resolute 19:19, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Re-electing 1500 admins every year sounds like a major bureaucratic ordeal. IRWolfie- (talk) 18:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Plus if admins know we will re-elected every year, we won't get involved in anything except basic clean ups, blocks and protections. It will not allow us to make the hard decisions since people will just that decision (even if it serves the best for WP) will cause someone to lose their tools because of one kicking/screaming user. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- They don't re-elect my entire local police force every year. However, they do performance reviews :-) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 19:12, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Performance reviews would be lovely. Re-elections would not. RfA is bad enough once/twice/thrice, there's no way I - or any other sane person - would want to run that whole gauntlet again. Keilana|Parlez ici 19:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I kind of see the reasoning but agree that every year would be undoable. Given the awards of the now banned administrator Will Beback got I have to wonder if there is a burnout factor. To be honest even though I never have been an administrator I have experienced dealing with some bad-questionalbe editors and after a while that gets to you and your WP:civility starts suffering.
- Now imagine that is effective part of your day to day "job"; the police analogy is a fitting one as their burnout tends to end tragically (Ritter, John (Feb 8, 2007) "Suicide rates jolt police culture" USAToday) and while admins aren't going to implode like that they can, as likely was the case with Will Beback, start doing things that eventually get them banned from the community.
- I don't think there is any one solution but giving the community some tools to prevent good administrators from imploding and committing the community equivalent of suicide (ie getting perma-banned) would be something.--BruceGrubb (talk) 22:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, we want admins to avoid enacting the "Final Solution" against other editors, which might get more difficult to resist if their frustrations escalate. -Wikid77 05:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- ... you're equating a block on Wikipedia with the Holocaust? Seriously? — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 12:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oh dear, Wikid77, Godwin's law so soon already?--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 12:06, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- You missed the Law of ABBDT (Auschwitz, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Treblinka): "Given enough time someone will invent a law to forget Nie wieder" (photo: Denkmal). Earlier, I was recalling the 10 May 1933 book burnings (Bookburn.htm) of Einstein's "Jewish science". -Wikid77 13:12, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- For goodness's sake, Wikid77, please explain how any dispute over the content of a Wikipedia article has a moral equivalence with killing six million Jews.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 13:24, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Whose law states to claim 6 million Jews? That figure oversimplifies the actual events. Not everyone was Jewish, not everyone was killed, some people were blocked from their work, their homes, their neighborhoods, and others had their writings removed, censored, burned. They were not allowed to talk to other
userpeople, about some subjects, as they were topic-banned. Do any of those realistic events sound related to WP, when considered at that level of detail? -Wikid77 22:47, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Your original reference was to the Final Solution specifically, and was utterly inappropriate. Please do not repeat it. Instead, drop this tangent and do something more productive. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- ... you're equating a block on Wikipedia with the Holocaust? Seriously? — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 12:00, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, we want admins to avoid enacting the "Final Solution" against other editors, which might get more difficult to resist if their frustrations escalate. -Wikid77 05:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think there is any one solution but giving the community some tools to prevent good administrators from imploding and committing the community equivalent of suicide (ie getting perma-banned) would be something.--BruceGrubb (talk) 22:57, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Senior Review Board
So, let's have a "Senior Review Board" with a whack of clerks. The clerks role is to make a list of the admin-related activities each admin has performed in their last year of service (based on appointment date so that it's around-the-calendar). They also do a report of article work over the year. They do a spot check of interactions. They provide a report to the SRB. (we have toolserv apps/bots that do most of this already)
The SRB is composed of a pool of senior admins (who of course are also required to undertake the same SRB process). 3 SRB panel members are appoint to review each admin at random. They review the admin report in private. The pool would be "trained" on the performance review process.
Meanwhile, the admin being annual-reviewed makes their own "best of" and "worst of" list - are provided with the base admin-activity report (minus the spot checks). They are expected to show areas where perhaps they f'd up, and how they have/will improve. They have an exchange with the SRB members who cross-check problems/solutions proposed.
At the end of the process is a report card, with suggested improvements/issues highlighted. The report card is available to the admin, and kept "on file" until the next year SRB.
You could, in theory, then use the report card to desysop (only after X# of poor reviews/no improvement) just like any job. It does give the admin a S.M.A.R.T. set of solutions/advice. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:30, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Adminship is not a defined job: Because the use of the mop is considered optional, then having a "performance review" would be difficult. However, I like the idea of periodically reviewing the active admin actions, to assess the interactions with other users. Perhaps admins who stop using the tools should be asked to drop admin status, and further reduce the current {{NUMBEROFADMINS}} = 856, to reflect the number who actually use the tools. At least with Swedish WP, when they talk of their "94 admins" then that gives a better idea of active involvement. Another advantage of re-elections would be to drop the "sysop" status of editors who do not care to use the tools any longer. -Wikid77 10:51, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that having a panel of only 3 of the most experienced admins, chosen by some unknown method, acting in private, would be a method that could gain universal "trust". I'm of the believe that new blood makes old blood boil, and that is a good thing, lest we become stagnant. The only way I could think of "private" being accepted and useful is if you had a non-binding "vote of confidence", similar to an RFA but no summary, no votes are visible, no count is visible, and you simply end up with a total at the end of the week, such as 120 approve, 20 disapprove. If "JohnnyAdmin" was picked randomly (or after $x years) and gets over 70% approval, say, then further review is likely not needed. Limiting to autoconfirmed users, like RFA, would be reasonable. No questions, no comments from anyone, perhaps a review template on their page (but either we require that all reviewees use it, or none do). Obviously, canvassing, sockpuppeting and other issues would have to be monitored during the event by volunteers who are uninvolved and approved by the community, and perhaps the individual votes could be made public after it closes (still, with no summaries) in the interest of full disclosure. This temporary privacy would reduce "group think" and persuasion and steer editors into making independent judgements. I would be very, very hesitant to consider a review system that did not consider the least among us, in terms of politics. Experience does count, but limiting the "judgement" to only those who are most entrenched into the system isn't likely to produce results that the community as a whole will support or find unbiased. We are not a democracy, but this wouldn't be a binding vote, and sometimes a simple Yay or Nay is useful to determine if there is a problem that warrants further investigation. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 13:22, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Have to say I like the idea of a sort of performance review for admins, I think it could really work. Contrary what appears to be popular belief we (or at least I) are not in fact power-mad fiends, if we're going off the rails it's usually not on purpose. I think a regular review to just have a look at our actions and say "yeah this was good, you did well here, but perhaps here you could have been more cautious, and you were out of line here...we'd like you to do x or focus on y instead of Z" etc could be of benefit to everyone. --Jac16888 Talk 18:00, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- I am a little amazed to see an argument that we need another layer of bureaucracy. True, there's no point in having admins who don't use the tools, but its good to have people in reserve with the potential to use them, and we're gradually removing those who are no longer active at all. Sampling a random number of admin for Quality Control as if we were interchangeable widgets does not address the problems of removing the bad one. We have a good way of looking at everyone already: every active admin has there actually carefully watched by everyone who is affected by them. There are people watching everything I do just waiting for a chance to call me on it, and it is right that they do so. Discussing the problem ones deals with most of the problems, and we have arb com to remove them if unavoidable. this whole discussion was started because arb com indeed did its job . Having someone else do it won't make things better. Why will 3 trusted people do better than 12? Why will secret discussions help? Every time arb com feels it necessary to do something in private they get roundly criticized for it. DGG ( talk ) 05:10, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- You're on the right track, but make it a jury
- A review board indeed would be a new layer of bureaucracy and politics. Nonetheless, this idea is on the right track, because the decision being made is not supposed to be a political one, and it's not required to be a general vote. The idea that electing one person as admin means another cannot be, allowing for the possibility that by WikiGaming to eliminate enough admins a certain faction could take over de facto rulership of the site - that is not a strength but a significant vulnerability.
- I would propose that we begin by creating a general system for empanelling "juries" on Wikipedia, by which I mean, smallish groups of hopefully impartial voters chosen by a verifiably random process. The process I have in mind is to use a pre-decided formula on the published results of several state lotteries to generate a random revision number from a recent day, and the editors making that revision and several others at defined numeric intervals afterward are selected. Because we have no way to compel attendance, I would suggest a 36-member jury under the presumption most will decline to participate. Anyone would have the right to present information about a topic (in this case reconfirmation of an admin) and argue, but in the end the jury members would decide what decision to make. In this way we would take the vote out of the hands of self-selected RfA watchers and put it into the hands of general editors. Wnt (talk) 11:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
Burnout and Meltdown of admins
We can see evidence of admins losing interest, as logging very few edits, similar to burnout in general users. Another advantage of admin term limits would be the simple avoidance of burnout and meltdown, regardless if they felt the need to abuse their powers as a means to work faster. Beyond the ill feelings of protracted desysop debates, the Swedish WP (at sv:WP:ADMIN) also noted the problem of burnout, or inactivity (Swedish: inaktiv administratörer), as another reason to have term limits. In that scenario, then any admin who fails to acknowledge a re-nomination as admin would be removed from the re-election schedule of the remaining 94 Swedish admins (in 2012). In some cases, the abuse of tools beyond proper usage could be viewed as 2 options: (1) ignoring limits so work can go faster, or (2) actual meltdown beyond WP:IAR expediency, to use admin powers in an irratic or illogical manner. I have recommended mandatory wikibreaks, plus timeout periods for users editing some articles, where per-article edit-limits would reject further edits to an article (or talk-page) for perhaps a forced timeout of 2-3 months. In some cases, I have returned to editing an article, after 3 months, only to find the same group of editors fighting and obsessing over the article, as if not a day had passed in the 3 months. These issues should be decided with the advice of professional psychiatrists or psychologists, to help establish policies, although not making formal diagnosis of specific user behavior, while merely suggesting policies to improve general mental health. -Wikid77 05:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- I would support this proposal if it wasn't such a nightmare to go through the RFA process. Not everyone wants to endure that sort of gauntlet and even fewer want to do it repeatedly every couple years. Additionally, many of the tasks that admins do tend to cause some drama amongst some users (such as COI issues, blocking vandals, etc. so in some cases they couldn't get reelected if they ran again. IMO the answer isn't creating more beauracracy to being an admin but removing it so that more capable candidates will get the tools they need. We have plenty of admins but what we don't have are people with the tools needed to do certain tasks. We need to unbundle somem of the admin capabilities so that we have more people using the tools that they need. Kumioko (talk) 17:39, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Wikid77, what speaks against a community-elected "Adminship Committee" of sorts (or more generally, User Rights Committee) that acts on suggestions from the community, assigning and revoking admin privileges on the community's behalf? That way, we would avoid the time and drama that goes into RfAs, nevermind recall/confirmation RfAs; plus, the committee would be regularly elected by the community, and thus accountable. I see this as the only way to make even a lenient term limit of e.g. three years manageable. But if we combine these two proposals, that could indeed help reduce drama and general waste of precious time and energy better spent on other things. --87.79.131.112 (talk) 02:24, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- A Reconfirmation Committee as checks and balances: Well, if the impact of a committee was limited, to perhaps 40% of an admin's relection votes, then that could offset, as a system of checks and balances, the power where many admins might come to vote "Support" for each other during the admin re-elections. In Swedish WP, the admin approval minimum is 75% of the total votes, which would be very high for English Wikipedia, but perhaps, as admins become better known, from repeated re-elections, then a wider support for each admin might develop. If we re-election admins each 3 years, then the 1500 admins would be 500 admins per re-election year, divided into quarterly elections of 125 admins, as 4 times per year. -Wikid77 12:27, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Just force all admins to be open to recall under a specified criteria
My consulting fee will be one thousand pounds please. To whom should I send the bill? Egg Centric 14:46, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Send it to me. There will be an advance handling fee of £150, which will be returned with your payment. Rich Farmbrough, 19:15, 27 May 2012 (UTC).
What?
My impression was that the process of making people admins in the first place is entirely broken. Having any sort of performance review, vote of no confidence, or similar poll, regardless of whether it's binding, would simply extend the problem with the existing process. 208.65.88.187 (talk) 17:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Different theories on that. A view that some (myself included) have is that that people would be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt at RFA if there were better safeguards to allow the RFA decision to be undone if it turned out that the new admin wasn't living up to the communities expectations.--Cube lurker (talk) 17:33, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Unadminship as no big deal as adminship: Because the Swedish WP has treated un-electing of admins (unadminship) as "no big deal" since 2006, there is less resentment of the process, and approval also becomes a similar "no big deal" because a wayward, rogueing admin can be un-elected within 1 year, without the ordeal of an insult-the-scoundrel desysoping debate. A vote of "no confidence" (below 75%) would be much easier than proving a rough consensus to remove a wayward admin. Plus an editor might agree to accept adminship duties, knowing to opt-out from renomination, next year. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's because they knew what they were getting into going in, that it would end in a year. Here, we have several hundred people who have not been given such a limit, and most of whom have done good work. I'm not totally opposed to the idea of a deadminship process, or term limits, but it has to be handled with sensitivity.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:28, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Harry Potter is a Girl
I tried but have no idea what this is about.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:01, 24 May 2012 (UTC) | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
So you understand, I had 3 days of a block to read the many WP:XXXX that were thrown at me, to then understand them. So while it might be hard for you to believe that someone can read in 3 days a bunch of WP:XXXX rules, it is not impossible. Actually I didn't have to read many, just the ones that were used against me to have me blocked. As I found, they were being totally misquoted against me. So yeah, you might find it hard to believe, you might also want to go to the Alkaline Diet article and look at how many people said exactly the same thing as I did in the past on the article. Is that hard to believe? Don't bother answering, just know that you might want to look at the history and deal with it. I don't understand why this was taken off Jimbo Wales' page by someone other than him with a note hard to believe. Isn't that his choice? Yes I would like him to discuss it with me. As I put it on his page with the express comment that the people (like you) who are in between him and me are the problem. So you making a personal judgement that someone can't read a few Wiki WP:XXXX rules in 3 days gives you the right to ignore my very detailed comments. Sorry but this is exactly the reason I contacted Jimbo and not you. Maximus. 86.93.139.223 (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2012 (UTC) 86.93.139.223 (talk) 21:58, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
SAEDON, you were happy to read a wall of text in order to then delete it completely as a WP:SOAPBOX simply because it did not agree with you. So you WP:LIE here. Besides this was not a wall of text in the initial post. And you are only here to defend your own WP:GANG behaviour. I'm sorry people here like to throw out one irrelevant line and say WP:XXXX at the end. I find that a joke, that people can read that and nothing more. Anyway, you still win. Your blocks and deletions and closing of comments on the Alkaline Diet talk page have defeated me. Your WP:GANG remains in force. Contgratulations for ignoring WP:BOLD and doing a WP:BITE on a newbie. You shall remain in Wiki Dream Land while I move back to the real world today. Maximus. 86.93.139.223 (talk) 04:50, 24 May 2012 (UTC) |
- You're probably better off not even trying... Blozier2006 (talk) 12:43, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- The title "...Potter is a Girl" refers to debates claiming secondary sources stating "girl" would override primary source stating "boy" as an issue discussed under Talk:Alkaline_diet (see discussions there). -Wikid77 10:29, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- One very depressing thing I see there is perhaps the worst case of the "verifiability, not truth" myth being repeated there that I have ever seen. "What you seem to misunderstand about WP is that the WP:TRUTH is not our goal, WP:VERIFIABILITY is. Indeed, if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl and we have no better or equal sources to correct that then we will report that Harry Potter is a girl." That's utter and complete nonsense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:58, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I responded on my talk as well, but would like to say here that I disagree with your characterization of VNT as a myth. Whether you or I agree with it, or not, it is a written policy. Perhaps it should and will be changed, but until such time that it is, it is fairly clearly enshrined in bold letters in WP:V. It's what I read as a newbie, it's what I've seen repeated a million times, so by what standard would I or anyone else say "no, that's not how it is?" SÆdontalk 10:42, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- You are misreading it, as many people have, which is why we had a vote with around 60% support for changing the way it is written. Additionally, it does not describe how we actually work. In truth, there are few examples as extreme as the Harry Potter one, but if it were true that of a simple novel like that (with no complex gender mysteries) and reliable sources got a basic fact like that wrong, we would not follow the reliable sources, we would open up the novel and read the simple truth. We can and must and thank goodness do exercise thoughtful editorial judgment. We are not transcription monkeys.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- This gets back to a point I've made before: Wikipedia is set up so that of someone does bad things, you can point to a rule and bash them over the head with it. But strictly making and enforcing rules isn't something you can turn on and off. The easier you make it to bash troublemakers and clueless people with rules, the easier you make it for anyone to bash anyone with rules, even if the person wielding the rule is the troublemaker or clueless person. Ken Arromdee (talk) 17:29, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- You are misreading it, as many people have, which is why we had a vote with around 60% support for changing the way it is written. Additionally, it does not describe how we actually work. In truth, there are few examples as extreme as the Harry Potter one, but if it were true that of a simple novel like that (with no complex gender mysteries) and reliable sources got a basic fact like that wrong, we would not follow the reliable sources, we would open up the novel and read the simple truth. We can and must and thank goodness do exercise thoughtful editorial judgment. We are not transcription monkeys.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I responded on my talk as well, but would like to say here that I disagree with your characterization of VNT as a myth. Whether you or I agree with it, or not, it is a written policy. Perhaps it should and will be changed, but until such time that it is, it is fairly clearly enshrined in bold letters in WP:V. It's what I read as a newbie, it's what I've seen repeated a million times, so by what standard would I or anyone else say "no, that's not how it is?" SÆdontalk 10:42, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- One very depressing thing I see there is perhaps the worst case of the "verifiability, not truth" myth being repeated there that I have ever seen. "What you seem to misunderstand about WP is that the WP:TRUTH is not our goal, WP:VERIFIABILITY is. Indeed, if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl and we have no better or equal sources to correct that then we will report that Harry Potter is a girl." That's utter and complete nonsense.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:58, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- The amusing part of that example is that any such source claiming Harry Potter is a girl removes itself from consideration as being a reliable source for rather obvious reasons. A million unreliable sources can claim Jimbo Wales has blue skin and was born on Neptune, but not a one would pass the axiom of "verifiability, not truth". Resolute 22:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think that is a very bad argument. It is an IDONTLIKE it and therefore it is wrong not me. One should assess the reliability of the source straightforwardly and then wonder why it conflicts with what one thinks. I think Bayes rule is relevant here, arguing that things are unreliable afterwards and then changing the prior assessment is the sort of thing that led to the inspections of Saddam's arsenal and when inspectors couldn't find weapons of mass destruction people came to the conclusion he must be even more evil and cunning at hiding them than they originally supposed. Dmcq (talk) 13:11, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd think that if you want to exclude X on the grounds that the source isn't reliable, the source should be considered unreliable for some reason other than just that it says X. That would be perilously close to circular reasoning--you're assuming that X is bad in order to conclude that a mention of it isn't reliable. Ken Arromdee (talk) 14:32, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think that is a very bad argument. It is an IDONTLIKE it and therefore it is wrong not me. One should assess the reliability of the source straightforwardly and then wonder why it conflicts with what one thinks. I think Bayes rule is relevant here, arguing that things are unreliable afterwards and then changing the prior assessment is the sort of thing that led to the inspections of Saddam's arsenal and when inspectors couldn't find weapons of mass destruction people came to the conclusion he must be even more evil and cunning at hiding them than they originally supposed. Dmcq (talk) 13:11, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- The amusing part of that example is that any such source claiming Harry Potter is a girl removes itself from consideration as being a reliable source for rather obvious reasons. A million unreliable sources can claim Jimbo Wales has blue skin and was born on Neptune, but not a one would pass the axiom of "verifiability, not truth". Resolute 22:56, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
"We can and must and thank goodness do exercise thoughtful editorial judgment. We are not transcription monkeys."
Worth bolding, imo! —MistyMorn (talk) 11:04, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I actually had a case where a quite respected author of a maths textbook had made a mistake and this editor kept insisting on trying to stick it in. Basically verifiability not truth is the correct approach I believe except occasionally we have to use common sense, and in this case I had to get people from the maths project to come along and show a consensus that really what the person had written was wrong and we should ignore it. In other cases we have to give both sides of a case if they are both reliable even if we feel one side or the other is silly. The cases I feel worried about are where a source says something stupid and we can't find anything saying the opposite, it isn't as clearcut as maths in most cases. Dmcq (talk) 11:12, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I certainly agree with that. But sound methodological considerations do exist for making, say, generalizations or causal inferences in human populations. Imo, we have a real editorial responsibility to avoid ignoring such issues in the name of mechanically implementing policies and guidelines, however enshrined. —MistyMorn (talk) 11:24, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Responsibility versus not censored or NPOV... I think that muddies the water a bit here, I think that would be better at #Shooting the messenger? or another section altogether. Dmcq (talk) 11:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree. Jimbo is referring here to the far broader verifiability/truth issue (certainly not confined to an esoteric dispute about fictional gender identities). —MistyMorn (talk) 11:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Right. The issue is a complex and subtle one. Yes, in most cases, we go with what reliable sources say because we can and should do no more. But there are cases where the consensus of thoughtful editors is that the reliable sources are in fact wrong - this is not uncommon - and in such cases what we generally do is go with the truth - certainly that's what we should do. There is fear in some quarters that doing anything other than "be transcription monkeys" opens the door to crackpots and cranks who have their own personal Truth(tm) above reliable sources, but I don't think that's the case. After all, even our determinations of what is and is not a reliable source is based on our own editorial judgment.
- I believe that the most effective change we can make to policy in this area is for WP:V to be changed to move the words further apart, so that "verifiability, and not truth" tends to go away as a mantra. It is false. It doesn't describe how we work, nor does it describe how we should work. I note once again that a vote was taken and there was roughly 60% support for a new version, and this was blocked on the specious grounds that consensus (defined as something like 80% support) is necessary. I don't want anyone to edit war about this, but I do want to note that this is precisely the sort of case which moves me to want to formalize my traditional powers into new community systems that actually work to prevent this kind of paralysis.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:35, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- For the occasion I am posting our content that WAS created by monkeys. I realize this is a heated discussion and wanted to cheer everyone up a little. --> -- A Certain White Cat chi? 20:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks - I for one am fascinated by and deeply respect our close cousins and I guess Jimbo does too. But his point that they wouldn't make a great job as editors (sorry about the commercial link) is intuitive, imo. —MistyMorn (talk) 20:52, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- For the occasion I am posting our content that WAS created by monkeys. I realize this is a heated discussion and wanted to cheer everyone up a little. --> -- A Certain White Cat chi? 20:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have had at least two situations where the published sources are known to be wrong from persona knowledge communicated to us - both about minor biographical details. In both cases we went with the truth, in one the relative was able to have some of the sources changed. It's just a matter of common sense. Rich Farmbrough, 14:00, 27 May 2012 (UTC).
- I disagree. Jimbo is referring here to the far broader verifiability/truth issue (certainly not confined to an esoteric dispute about fictional gender identities). —MistyMorn (talk) 11:51, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Responsibility versus not censored or NPOV... I think that muddies the water a bit here, I think that would be better at #Shooting the messenger? or another section altogether. Dmcq (talk) 11:37, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, I think determination of sex, especially in reference to transsexuality, is a perfect case of where "verifiability not truth", in the literal sense, must guide us. Certainly a person could make a very reasonable, scientific argument that cosmetic operations meant to change the physical appearance of a person do not amount to a change of sex in any meaningful biological sense. If we follow truth rather than verifiability, we could therefore insist on referring to all transsexuals according to their birth sex throughout each article. Alternatively, we could decide that gender is a social construct, and anyone adopting a transvestite appearance should be referred to according to the sex mimicked. Or we could make our own standards, decide for example whether the "top surgery" is enough or whether "bottom surgery" is required also, all by ourselves. Why settle for some probably inconsistent patchwork of medical, journalistic, or governmental standards when we can decide all these philosophical questions for ourselves? Because we are indeed transcription monkeys, merely curating the available literature - we are not deciding the deep philosophical questions of the world here for our readers. In that way we can avoid endless debate and political drama and focus on getting a useful encyclopedia compiled. Wnt (talk) 01:51, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
HP is a girl... (revisited)
- (after many edit conflicts)Of course, this has nothing to do with WP:V and VnT: the fact that HP is a boy is easily verifiable in a reliable, published source, albeit in such a case not an independent secondary one, but the primary source. VnT is about not introducing WP:OR or things that can't be verified by other people, like personal memories or information you got from a conversation with the subject of an article. Trying (again) to get rid of VnT by using examples which don't fall under VnT is not really convincing. Fram (talk) 11:34, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not misreading it, I just wasn't clear enough above. As I wrote on my talk, when secondary sources are obviously wrong we use common sense, as would be the case if Harry Potter was called a girl. I just meant above to comment on the idea that VNT was a myth in and of itself. SÆdontalk 11:29, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- (after many edit conflicts)Of course, this has nothing to do with WP:V and VnT: the fact that HP is a boy is easily verifiable in a reliable, published source, albeit in such a case not an independent secondary one, but the primary source. VnT is about not introducing WP:OR or things that can't be verified by other people, like personal memories or information you got from a conversation with the subject of an article. Trying (again) to get rid of VnT by using examples which don't fall under VnT is not really convincing. Fram (talk) 11:34, 25 May 2012 (UTC)y
- This is a case in which a good faith editor with considerable experience came to precisely the wrong conclusion because he took VnT to mean exactly what it says. We need to get rid of this formulation, for the simple reason that it is false and tends to confuse people badly. When you read something like his description, you can fully understand why some critics would have a field day and claim that we are idiotic automatons following rules mindlessly. The formulation does a great deal of harm, and very little good.
- No one wants to throw out verifiability. The point is that the way we try to explain it is false according to how we actually do our work, and leads to wild and misleading claims that people would be right to make fun of. It's time to modify it to reflect a more sophisticated understanding.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:39, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm pretty certain J K Rowling was indulging in fantasy when writing the Harry Potter series and Harry Potter really is a girl even if a tomboy wish fullment on the part of the author ;-) Dmcq (talk) 12:01, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for pointing out the flawed understanding I had regarding VNT (you too, Fram), I will certainly incorporate your advice in my future dealings. What also strikes me as interesting is that I've probably explained VNT in that light (with different examples than HP) dozens of times and this is the first time that anyone has pointed out to me that I have been misunderstanding the policy. So to a certain extent there must be a quite substantial number of editors who understand the policy the same way, which I now understand is what you meant when you referred to VNT as a myth. SÆdontalk 22:48, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- (after many edit conflicts)Of course, this has nothing to do with WP:V and VnT: the fact that HP is a boy is easily verifiable in a reliable, published source, albeit in such a case not an independent secondary one, but the primary source. VnT is about not introducing WP:OR or things that can't be verified by other people, like personal memories or information you got from a conversation with the subject of an article. Trying (again) to get rid of VnT by using examples which don't fall under VnT is not really convincing. Fram (talk) 11:34, 25 May 2012 (UTC)y
- I'm not misreading it, I just wasn't clear enough above. As I wrote on my talk, when secondary sources are obviously wrong we use common sense, as would be the case if Harry Potter was called a girl. I just meant above to comment on the idea that VNT was a myth in and of itself. SÆdontalk 11:29, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- (after many edit conflicts)Of course, this has nothing to do with WP:V and VnT: the fact that HP is a boy is easily verifiable in a reliable, published source, albeit in such a case not an independent secondary one, but the primary source. VnT is about not introducing WP:OR or things that can't be verified by other people, like personal memories or information you got from a conversation with the subject of an article. Trying (again) to get rid of VnT by using examples which don't fall under VnT is not really convincing. Fram (talk) 11:34, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
if 5 secondary sources say that Harry Potter is a girl and we have no better or equal sources to correct that then we will report that Harry Potter is a girl; we do have a better source. The book - in which it is brain numbingly obvious that Potter is a boy. I think the point being made is that if sources are clearly and unambiguously wrong we don't help matters by following them. No comment on its applicability to the dispute on that page. --Errant (chat!) 11:19, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- The book isn't a secondary source, it's a primary source, and we prefer secondary sources to primary sources. I'm reminded of the [[1]] article, where the subject claimed that her birth name is "Demi" while "reliable sources" claimed it was Demetria. (Apparently People Magazine is now considered a reliable source.) End result: "Sources are divided as to whether her birth name is Demetria or Demi. Moore says the latter." Ken Arromdee (talk) 14:54, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
I did actually look at 5 websites that were presented to me as primary sources against my point and each agreed with what I said. Those presenting them had no competence to judge their relevance, and I explained this. An admin described my explanations as ranting and WP:BATTLEFIELD and later on blocked me. I also presented three independently published books from 6 years ago or more that agree with my point. I was accused of WP:BATTLEFIELD and blocked. I didn't even want to remove the secondary source, just make a comment that I found it inconsistent with the primary sources I knew of. I was blocked for that. Even when an admin supported me and referred to WP:PRIMARY he was attacked. When I returned from a 3 day block I made a clear case and that was deleted completely on the basis of WP:SOAPBOX. So I gave up. As an advertisement of Wikipedia for a newbie it was pretty bad. I even contacted the author of the secondary source to ask for her primary source and she didn't reply. When I raised the issue of WP:BOLD and WP:BITE I was accused of being a Sock Puppet and a liar about being a newbie. So yeah, Jimbo, this is my issue. The tiny fringe article remains unchanged, people with no WP:COMPETENCE rule the page as a gang, and a guy who read three independent primary sources has been booted off there. If I was the only one I'd understand. Yet there are many comments by others of this behavior on that page and not a single admin has stopped the gang, rather supporting them. Anyway, I've got work to do and a plane to catch. Good luck Jimbo - I like that you don't take yourself too serious and use that name. Maximus. 81.164.44.104 (talk) 13:32, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, this issue reflects a fairly widespread misunderstanding of WP:PRIMARY. As I understand it, this rules out interpretation of primary sources by the editor. However, it seems to me that primary sources are fine for direct quotes (in fact, authoritative for that) and for the screamingly obvious (like HP being a boy). Some people seem to have a "no primary sources at any time" policy, but I take it that Jimbo agrees that this is incorrect? -- 202.124.73.22 (talk) 07:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- On gender identity, the Manual of Style instructs that we should use pronouns that match a person's gender identity, even if that gender identity comes from a (reliable) primary source. For example, quite a few reliable sources referred to Tom Gabel as he in their coverage of her coming out as transgender. There was a recent push by several editors to impose a source fetishist view on gender identity recently, but it fell. Sceptre (talk) 18:06, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Call for boycott
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
If this is actually based on disputes pertaining to Palin, Guevara, and Putin, I would like to see the contested diffs to judge, please. Also, per the notice at the top of the page, "Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. Please don't consider alerting him to any topic to be canvassing." 71.212.246.55 (talk) 07:49, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Happy that the rant was put into a 'hat' box. The color scheme alone was painful. And the rant itself wasn't helpful. Along with our anonymous friend, I'd like to see the contested diffs to judge.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:53, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Benjamin's latest edits give a pretty good indication of what he's about. In the case of Palin and Rice specifically, he appears to be treating someone's sensationalistic book as The Truth™ and is upset that people are correctly applying WP:BLP against his wishes. Resolute 02:49, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Just another POV pusher getting annoyed when other editors point out the rules. In general I find that wikipedia works quite well...occasionally there is some frustration when a POV pusher tries to take over an article, but generally sanity and NPOV prevails. I just wish all POV pushers would boycott wikipedia - it would make life so much easier :) --sciencewatcher (talk) 04:18, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Benjamin's latest edits give a pretty good indication of what he's about. In the case of Palin and Rice specifically, he appears to be treating someone's sensationalistic book as The Truth™ and is upset that people are correctly applying WP:BLP against his wishes. Resolute 02:49, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Of course I looked at the user's contributions. He has no substantial edits to any of the three articles in question, except to add dispute tags, and his talk page discussion of them doesn't refer to sources or any conceivable kind of censorship or deletion. What book on Palin and Rice are you talking about? I can't even find a reference to anyone named Rice. 71.212.246.55 (talk) 06:39, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- New York Times piece on the book, the author, and likely, the intentions behind it. Glen Rice is a former NBA player that she was alleged to have had... interactions... with when she was a sports reporter in Alaska. Resolute 14:17, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- A single unconfirmed primary source without any scholarly credentials certainly shouldn't be included. Anyone know what the Guevara and Putin controversies are? 71.212.251.217 (talk) 18:24, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- It does not even rise to that level -- the NYT review specifies although here too “The Rogue” is too busy being nasty to be lucid.. When a book is not even "lucid" one would properly hesitate to use it as a source in any BLP with a straight face, (although some editors did try to use it, of course, but "Silly Season" has no limits for some of them). Collect (talk) 12:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- A single unconfirmed primary source without any scholarly credentials certainly shouldn't be included. Anyone know what the Guevara and Putin controversies are? 71.212.251.217 (talk) 18:24, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- New York Times piece on the book, the author, and likely, the intentions behind it. Glen Rice is a former NBA player that she was alleged to have had... interactions... with when she was a sports reporter in Alaska. Resolute 14:17, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Of course I looked at the user's contributions. He has no substantial edits to any of the three articles in question, except to add dispute tags, and his talk page discussion of them doesn't refer to sources or any conceivable kind of censorship or deletion. What book on Palin and Rice are you talking about? I can't even find a reference to anyone named Rice. 71.212.246.55 (talk) 06:39, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
I'd support a boycott of the over-usage of diacritics on English language Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 03:56, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd boycott that böÿçőțť. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Humour for you. a response to the harrassment.
I left this on my talk page in response to another POS bully wannabee. I am sure you will get a luagh out of it but in the end it actually make a mark.
- First let me apologize for your lack of time in only reading the latest text and listening to a polished WP:Bully cry like a baby when he can't bully another person, and not the whole story. You seem hell bent on supporting his WP:BATTLEGOUND and WP"BAITING, behaviour. It does functionm quite well in WP and some are very polished with it. . It doesn't semm to be any more I can do in this regard of selective reading, with the current system of promoting WP:Bullying here. I guess I will just have to "Grin and Barrett". Have a nice life. Maybe you can make some more things disappear? Some of doesn't look good when the public reads it. You seem to have the opinion that not participating here makes much difference to the editors trying to help out after acting like hyenas to them. It become very obvious about the type of people behind the keyboards after observing this behaviour for a few years. Now get your fat ass moving and find my other fifteen IP socks and my two registered names used for the last few years. Try searching for 2009, mostly. I want to see how good you really are. One more item. I would like to thank you for all your help when I asked for it. The assistance was so worth the effort and helped me so much. Not that a little prick could be expected to actually do anything except threaten people. Makes you feel like a real person, don't it? To close I wouldlike to say: Try to lose some of that weight, especially between your ears and on your backside. Try the bar scene and see if your wallet can attract a person of the opposite sex or even the same sex if you like it that way. I suspect you do, not that it makes any difference. 99.251.114.120 (talk) 18:34, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Where is the humor? Will Mette (talk) 18:41, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've blocked the IP for 2 weeks for flooding various talkpages with malformed screeds; this one (also posted at the IP's talkpage) was the final straw. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:38, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Where is the humor? Will Mette (talk) 18:41, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
Mormon pedophiles
Some editors are repeatedly editing Frank L. VanderSloot [2] inserting a claim appearing to link him to supporting "Mormon pedophiles working with children as part of the Boy Scouts of America" which I suggested was a "contentious claim" to say the least. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:57, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- In the fact-based world, it is multiple editors who have performed this edit once each; only Collect is repeating any edits here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- In the fact-based world, charges about individuals supporting "Mormon pedophiles" would not be permitted without strong sourcing - your position that calling people supporters of "Mormon pedophiles" is rational is noted -- but I suggest that such idiotic silly season name-calling does not belong on this encyclopedia or on any fact-based encyclopedia in this universe. Your mileage appears to vary. Collect (talk) 13:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Won't someone please think of the pedophiles?! Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:20, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Seriously, you're calling Harvard's Nieman Reports unreliable? And taking out news reporting of a statement by the candidate himself? [3] That's unacceptable. The sources you deleted, especially, his own statements, are what are needed to provide appropriate context for this important issue. I am tired of WP:PRESERVE and WP:NOTCENSORED being treated like they exist only on paper, with the sole purpose of being ignored. Wnt (talk) 16:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think this is about WP:PRESERVE or WP:NOTCENSORED at all. It's about this being a biography and a question, not about the reliability of that particular source, but about whether this is undue weight. I haven't researched the question, so I have no opinion. But jamming in every piece of information we can find is not good editorial judgment, particular if it gives the reader the wrong impression of the overall weight of reliable sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not a matter of "fact" but of deliberately associating a living person with supporting "Mormon pedophiles (working for the ) Boy Scouts of America" -- something I find quite beyond the pale, even when the person is associated with the Romney campaign. Collect (talk) 23:21, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I appreciate Jimbo's point that we don't want to emphasize fringe points of view per WP:UNDUE. I think that in situations like this, a media article specifically about the subject's response is triply useful - as a source for the allegations themselves, for a good presentation of the subject's point of view, and most important for this case, for subjects who have not been interviewed thousands of times, an interview on a topic is an indication that it is one of a fairly restricted number of issues of sufficient importance that the subject wishes to speak to the press about it. Now, believers of the truth-not-verifiability school, and perhaps serious academic biographers also, may have their own ways to decide what is important about the subject. Perhaps what is really most important to the subject is a collection of antique German figurines and that's what we should tell about his life, if only someone would visit him and find out about it. But I believe that Wikipedia, as a mere encyclopedia, should be best off to blindly follow the published data whichever way it leads.
- In this case, multiple sources have been presented, which should be sufficient to guarantee the information a place in a theoretical final article. We can't say, don't put in this detail until every detail is in, because some detail has to go first. While having some details and not others will inevitably mean a somewhat unbalanced emphasis on certain incidents, on average the editors should be trusted to add the more important details first, and when that is insufficient, the way to fix things is to add more information, not to take things out.
- It is true that the section could be a little more understanding. In order to do that, it should be bigger than it is. We should explain his argument that he targeted journalists not for exposing a pedophile, but for implying that church members were deliberately collaborating with him rather than being innocent dupes. We certainly have nothing to lose from an abundance of fairness. Wnt (talk) 01:51, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not a matter of "fact" but of deliberately associating a living person with supporting "Mormon pedophiles (working for the ) Boy Scouts of America" -- something I find quite beyond the pale, even when the person is associated with the Romney campaign. Collect (talk) 23:21, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think this is about WP:PRESERVE or WP:NOTCENSORED at all. It's about this being a biography and a question, not about the reliability of that particular source, but about whether this is undue weight. I haven't researched the question, so I have no opinion. But jamming in every piece of information we can find is not good editorial judgment, particular if it gives the reader the wrong impression of the overall weight of reliable sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Seriously, you're calling Harvard's Nieman Reports unreliable? And taking out news reporting of a statement by the candidate himself? [3] That's unacceptable. The sources you deleted, especially, his own statements, are what are needed to provide appropriate context for this important issue. I am tired of WP:PRESERVE and WP:NOTCENSORED being treated like they exist only on paper, with the sole purpose of being ignored. Wnt (talk) 16:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Won't someone please think of the pedophiles?! Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:20, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- In the fact-based world, charges about individuals supporting "Mormon pedophiles" would not be permitted without strong sourcing - your position that calling people supporters of "Mormon pedophiles" is rational is noted -- but I suggest that such idiotic silly season name-calling does not belong on this encyclopedia or on any fact-based encyclopedia in this universe. Your mileage appears to vary. Collect (talk) 13:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Statewide opinion polling for the United States presidential elections, 2012
How is that an encyclopedic article? Wouldnt that be more Wikinews, than Wikipedia? It is an article that seems... poor in being encyclopedic.97.85.211.124 (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Statewide opinion polling for the United States presidential election, 2008 has existed for a long time, so there is a precedent.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Brett Kimberlin
There's no question you're going to hear about this sooner or later. Apparently Brett Kimberlin is fairly litigious against critics on the web, and very successful at it since his parole from imprisonment as the "Speedway Bomber." After spending about 20 minutes on this, I'm inclined to favor the Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Brett Kimberlin version, modulo a little cleanup and replacement of the Google News sources, which will expire, but it seems the kind of ultra high-profile thing involving an arbitrator and Wikimedia UK official which would benefit from more opinions first. 71.212.251.217 (talk) 03:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
IMPORTANT INFORMATION
Jimmy wales, I would like to bring to your attention a serious issue concerning an administrator/user named "Elockid". About a month ago, I was blocked by "Elockid" for "Block Evasion". Kindly educate me regarding this term as I have no idea what it means. All my edits, including the ones that were legitimate and accepted by the general Wikipedia community were undone. I would like you to go through my edits and tell me what was wrong with them. This user clearly seems to have some sort of a bias/prejudice against India/Indians. I hope you deal with him/her in the strictest manner. I strongly urge you to personally go through my edits. I hope my edits will be restored on to the Wikipedia page.
I am appalled at the scale of the misinformation in any article related to India on Wikipedia. Has no one else approached you regarding this issue? I am deeply disappointed at the level of misinformation about a civilization that has given so much to humanity without expecting anything in return. Let me give you an example. In the article "poverty in India", there is absolutely no mention of The British Empire in the "causes" section of the article! I tried to put up this information on the article and my edit was undone by this "Elockid" character. Also, many of India's achievements have been mentioned under other countries and civilizations.
On a side note, I have noticed that there is a VERY heavy bias towards China on Wikipedia in general. I would strongly urge you to go through the introduction in the following book and you will realize that it is a civilization not worthy of much attention:
http://www.amazon.com/China-A-History-John-Keay/dp/0465015808
If Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, as it claims to be, is it not a social responsibility to provide accurate information to the general public. And also, how is it an "Encyclopedia that anyone can edit" if there are museum pieces like "Elockid" who seem to be hell bent on providing their own version of events with respect to world history??
Cheers, from across the border — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.172.215 (talk) 03:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Even if you didn't happen to be a returning blocked user, your edits were extremely disruptive and blatantly pushing your pro-Indian point of view. I'd have blocked you for that anyways, and I suspect most admins would have as well. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC)