Jimbo Wales (talk | contribs) |
Jimbo Wales (talk | contribs) |
||
Line 113: | Line 113: | ||
:You'll need to be more specific and even then, this is not really going to be the most helpful venue for you.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 20:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC) |
:You'll need to be more specific and even then, this is not really going to be the most helpful venue for you.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 20:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC) |
||
If you don't mind me asking, since terms of use are generally legally binding and presumably these are too, would the foundation ever consider taking legal action against people who break "4. Activities That You Agree to Refrain From"? Obviously I don't mean your run of the mill one time vandals but the serious, long-terms ones who make it their mission to be disrupt the project and threaten/harass editors--[[User:Jac16888|<font color="Blue">Jac</font><font color="Green">16888</font>]] [[User talk:Jac16888|<sup><font color="red">Talk</font></sup>]] 23:06, 12 September 2011 (UTC) |
If you don't mind me asking, since terms of use are generally legally binding and presumably these are too, would the foundation ever consider taking legal action against people who break "4. Activities That You Agree to Refrain From"? Obviously I don't mean your run of the mill one time vandals but the serious, long-terms ones who make it their mission to be disrupt the project and threaten/harass editors--[[User:Jac16888|<font color="Blue">Jac</font><font color="Green">16888</font>]] [[User talk:Jac16888|<sup><font color="red">Talk</font></sup>]] 23:06, 12 September 2011 (UTC) |
||
:I don't know. Not my decision. It's a complex matter. I am personally in favor of it, if undertaken thoughtfully and carefully, with due consideration for all the various factors. The Foundation is currently involved in legal matters relating to one extremely problematic person (happy to talk to people I know about it privately, but let's not create a magnet by asking me who I mean here) who has issued explicit and credible threats of violence against various users of Wikipedia including me (and my daughter), but that's a pretty extreme case. |
|||
:I think the ones people would be interested in are persistent nuisance vandals who don't seem to be escalating into violence, but for whom a quick trip into court to have a judge tell them to knock it off just might do the trick. I would favor testing one or two of those as test cases. |
|||
:I'm not sure that the new terms of service actually changes the legal position of anything at all, by the way. I just don't know. I'm not a lawyer.--[[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo Wales]] ([[User talk:Jimbo Wales#top|talk]]) 00:35, 13 September 2011 (UTC) |
|||
== Political "silly season" is coming early == |
== Political "silly season" is coming early == |
Revision as of 00:35, 13 September 2011
(Manual archive list) |
"Verifiability and truth"
This little example raises some interesting points about BLP maintainability, verifiability, original research, truth. Let's have a thoughtful discussion about it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:27, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- It might be helpful if you would focus the discussion by clarifying what aspects you feel need to be discussed. Looie496 (talk) 16:31, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- We have in the article at the moment something that I know to be true, based on a personal conversation with the subject the article, but no source, although a source may be forthcoming soon. We had in the article a blatantly obvious falsehood, with no source, for nearly 2 years, which raises BLP maintainability questions (should this bio have been semi-protected years ago to prevent this? should it be placed under flagged revisions or similar?) This is a very mild version of the Siegenthaler incident, at least in terms of what was said, but much worse in terms of how long the vandalism remained in the article.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:37, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Can a bot be developed (or does a similar thing exist) for BLP templated articles whereby semi-protection is automatically added as the template is added?--MONGO 17:02, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- We have in the article at the moment something that I know to be true, based on a personal conversation with the subject the article, but no source, although a source may be forthcoming soon. We had in the article a blatantly obvious falsehood, with no source, for nearly 2 years, which raises BLP maintainability questions (should this bio have been semi-protected years ago to prevent this? should it be placed under flagged revisions or similar?) This is a very mild version of the Siegenthaler incident, at least in terms of what was said, but much worse in terms of how long the vandalism remained in the article.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:37, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- (ec) One thing it demonstrates is that we need sources, because without them vandalism may stay in an article for years without anyone being able to address it.
- Another thing it demonstrates is that sometimes it might be appropriate to have a process for elevating editors' "original research" into usable sources. A process that would allow us to use your statement about what Gowing said as a primary source (subject to applicable common sense restrictions on primary sources, so it can be used to flesh out an article but not to advance a thesis) would no doubt have been very useful for dealing with the Sam Blacketer controversy situation. At the time, we got a lot of traffic from people who thought that they would get the correct information from us. I think most of them had no idea that we were suppressing the necessary corrections to the press reports for procedural reasons, while reporting what we knew to be false.
- One approach could be a "Wikimedia Journal of Original Research", an edited publication whose main purpose it would be to publish trustworthy information for use in Wikipedia, and so to make it "reliable". It should have editors with a good reputation (from a scholarly or media background), and should be organisationally independent from Wikipedia, although possibly part of the family of Wikimedia projects. A similar, more local, approach is described at WT:WikiProject Computational Biology#PLoS Computational Biology to Contribute Wikipedia pages?, and I meant to tell you about it anyway because I think it is promising. Hans Adler 16:47, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- The only real 'controversy' was over the accuracy of the press reports, of course; and it would not have helped as the article was deleted for reasons of notability, as well as the danger of Wikipedia disappearing up its own fundament. (Most people who raised it with me directly just thought it was a bit of a joke and certainly not worth any national press coverage) But dare I also mention that the press comments at the time by the Volunteers Director for Wikimedia UK were also strikingly and pathetically inaccurate. There was and is no conflict of interest. Sam Blacketer (talk) 17:43, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Why yes, of course. I think the two main issues that we have not yet learned from are these: (1) It took about a week to get the article deleted, and during much of the time it was libelling you. (2) Wikipedia had a moral obligation to correct The Register's misinformation -- especially but not only while the article was live --, but had and still has no process for doing so. Hans Adler 19:04, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- The only real 'controversy' was over the accuracy of the press reports, of course; and it would not have helped as the article was deleted for reasons of notability, as well as the danger of Wikipedia disappearing up its own fundament. (Most people who raised it with me directly just thought it was a bit of a joke and certainly not worth any national press coverage) But dare I also mention that the press comments at the time by the Volunteers Director for Wikimedia UK were also strikingly and pathetically inaccurate. There was and is no conflict of interest. Sam Blacketer (talk) 17:43, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Hans, well, I agree that a source would be helpful in this case, no doubt. But it bothers me a lot that what was in the article was transparently ridiculous and no one challenged it for nearly two years. Hardly any editors saw it, I suppose. So what I'm interested in thinking about here is what policy changes (automatically semi-protect all unwatched or minimally-watched BLPs, bring back a new version of flagged revisions - which would absolutely have stopped this, etc.) would be valuable here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:01, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- And perhaps go ahead and delete all unsourced statements in all BLPs? Would you believe that could work as a radical method Mr. Wales? Wifione Message 17:11, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- The most obvious solution would be to encourage the subjects (and friends, family and colleagues) of BLPs to keep an eye our for vandalism and non-facts on their own article, and to post in the Talk page (preferably with some sort of template flag) to get an Admin's attention. Not all vandalism and non-facts are obvious. Some are footnoted, but you have to read the footnote to realize it says something else entirely. Sometimes good material is deleted, so what's left is true, but not complete. So far, Wikipedia has done a great job of targeting and ridiculing anyone who tries to correct their own article - regardless of whether it's a simple correction or fact or total puffery. As a result, no one would be caught dead trying to correct even the most egregious falsehoods. Sometimes it occurs to them to email Jimmy (based on what I've seen), but mostly they just deal with it as they do the typical tabloid 'stories' about them. Which, in too many cases, is what Wikipedia articles resemble. Honestly - of all the things Nik Gowing has done in his long career, is it really so important to know how many minutes of sleep he got during one (1) news story? On his behalf, I find that quite demeaning. That, imo, is the big picture here. 99.50.185.100 (talk) 17:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)I think for long-term problems in BLP articles, the subjects and their friends are the most important resource. What has happened here is only possible if they don't care, or think that they can't do anything and if they try to correct things it will get worse. I occasionally get emails from an academic whose article I once cleaned up. He saw the problems but preferred not to get involved, but then he thanked my for addressing some of them. I think given the COI-related paranoia of many editors that's extremely sensible. Unfortunately. To change this we would have to (1) make sure that article subjects are consistently treated respectfully, and (2) make it widely known that we are interested in such corrections.
- E.g. at the top of every BLP talk page there could be a section "Space for feedback from the subject", asking some questions concerning correctness, completeness and fairness from the subject's POV and linking to a page with detailed advice for subjects. This would demonstrate to everybody, both subjects and COI zealots, that we want this kind of feedback, although we may not always follow the subject's wishes. Hans Adler 17:34, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- And perhaps go ahead and delete all unsourced statements in all BLPs? Would you believe that could work as a radical method Mr. Wales? Wifione Message 17:11, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Hans, well, I agree that a source would be helpful in this case, no doubt. But it bothers me a lot that what was in the article was transparently ridiculous and no one challenged it for nearly two years. Hardly any editors saw it, I suppose. So what I'm interested in thinking about here is what policy changes (automatically semi-protect all unwatched or minimally-watched BLPs, bring back a new version of flagged revisions - which would absolutely have stopped this, etc.) would be valuable here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:01, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- I assume more than one person have read the absurd claim but did not know what to do about it because they have never edited a Wikipedia article before. We should have "flag this article for attention of others" button in all BLPs for people who don't feel comfortable editing wikipedia. Sole Soul (talk) 20:13, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Jimbo, you make reference to semi-protecting this BLP, but without specifying why this particular BLP deserves special treatment. I do not wish to read too much into that statement, but if you are coming around to the view that all BLPs should be automatically semi-protected, let me be the first to welcome you to the club! Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:24, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Delicious, I'm not quite there yet. The club has issued me a one-month trial membership, and I'm happy to be visiting. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:20, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- The main thing I'm thinking is that 41.5 minutes is a very precise amount of time for someone to know that they were asleep for. Another way of looking at the "verifiability and truth" question, maybe? --FormerIP (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. It was a completely bizarre claim when expressed as seconds, but it's strangely precise even if it is minutes. I can think of several ways that measurement might have come about, but it's strange. The reason it's interesting for his biography is that it is part of what he's noted for - a fairly extreme work ethic and ability to properly handle on-air time for long periods of time under a lot of pressure. It gives some valuable "color" and interest into him being a major on-air broadcaster during the hours following Diana's death. But it'd be a much better anecdote if we knew where it came from and how it came to be known. As it stands it's just an improperly-verified (by original interviewing by sheer chance by me) fact. Or factoid, the case may be.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:20, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- A reputation for "a fairly extreme work ethic and ability to properly handle on-air time for long periods of time under a lot of pressure"? I'm not saying he doesn't, but what was the guy's name again? I'd say this is why we have WP:RS, and also why that is correctly strongly tied in to WP:BLP.
- I'm concerned that there's a little ["print the legend"] about all this. Even apart from "41.5 minutes", the story just seems wrong, at least as it is currently told in the article. BBC World was a 24 hour news channel run by an organisation with access to possibly the world's best human resources within the field. Why do they need Nik Gowing in particular to be dragged from his sleep? Did half a billion people ever watched BBC World, even if the audience is combined with that of BBC 1 in the early hours of the morning? We're also told that Gowing "announced her death", which would seem to imply that a BBC producer heard the news and made a decision to wake Gowing and keep it under wraps until he arrived at the studio.
- Maybe that's how it really did happen, but I think out current policy has it right. Please show me a reliable source.
- The other issue is what to do about vandalism to BLPs that no-one looks at (apart from Cerejota). I'm not sure, but maybe deleting bios that don't meet a certain pageview threshold? Or else just live with the risk? --FormerIP (talk) 23:23, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes. It was a completely bizarre claim when expressed as seconds, but it's strangely precise even if it is minutes. I can think of several ways that measurement might have come about, but it's strange. The reason it's interesting for his biography is that it is part of what he's noted for - a fairly extreme work ethic and ability to properly handle on-air time for long periods of time under a lot of pressure. It gives some valuable "color" and interest into him being a major on-air broadcaster during the hours following Diana's death. But it'd be a much better anecdote if we knew where it came from and how it came to be known. As it stands it's just an improperly-verified (by original interviewing by sheer chance by me) fact. Or factoid, the case may be.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:20, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
First of all, I watch The Hub with Nick Gowing almost everyday, so I have visited this BLP more than once. Yet I didn't see this detail. And this is where flagged revisions are awesome: they immediately highlight edits in articles you have already visited and might not notice due to just being accustomed to them. If we had flagged revisions, we wouldn't probably have this conversation.
I think the point Jimbo (I know all about the name, but I use on-wiki names in the wiki always) raised is interesting. My interpretation of WP:V, and one I recognize is neither unique nor a dominant one, is that "verifiability" is an exercise reserved only for controversial/extraordinary information, and placed on the context of other policies. In other words, we do not need to verify everything directly, but if we put info up we have the WP:BURDEN to defend it from removal, and if this WP:BURDEN is not met, then removal is a possibility. Sometimes, one needs to be aggressive in removal, such as in BLPs (and even aggressive with positive claims - to prevent puffery and peacocking) or with obvious vandalism. Sometimes, one can be less aggressive and use the world-famous{{fact}}[citation needed] tag - for example, when one knows something can be verified but is too lazy to go there, or when there is a consensus for inclusion but no sources.
In other words, I never take WP:V to require that our information be cited, only that it can stand up to a verifiability challenge. I think that if this became the prevalent view, and we made the "Verifiability Challenge" a semi-official way to handle this (much like WP:BRD) we could solve some of the issues.
Jimbo's edit, however, is subject to removal under WP:BURDEN. As you said here, first hand or sencond hand knowledge is not a reliable source. I am not suggesting it be removed, however, I am pointing out, that the edit remains there under WP:IAR - not under WP:V, even if it is The Truth as told by Nick Gowing. Furthermore, even published first person accounts are indeed subject to independent verifiability, and if they are not, then we must quote. Peruse any high profile BLP and you will see a lot of grief over this: fans of a star who want to include anything their star said as The Truth, Sceptical wikipedians saying, wait for it, wait for it, verifiability, not truth. Here is the thing, what if Nick Gowing had told you, not that he slept 41.5 minutes, and obviously not seconds, but say, 10 or 20 minutes, or some other plausible figure for which there is no other evidence other than his word, and that would mean he was a world class power napper? The same criteria apply, but perhaps you wouldn't be quick to edit this, and would have probably paused a bit. I
So your argument boils down to, "if I find the claim credible, then it stays". That is a good editorial principle, but makes awful policy in this world of wikisolicitors...;) Perhaps, we need to spell out the difference of editorial principles (a personal style no one can take from you) and editorial policy (a consensus of editorial practices and how they intersect) and editorial practice (how all of this rubber meets the road). In your case these things sometimes get interlinked, but for the rest of use non-founders, clarity is a good thing.
I disagree with Hans that the solution would be citations for everything. To begin with, it would get very close to copy-vio problems and quotefarms, eliminating the incentive for editorial input which is at the core of any encyclopedia. And even then, the community is currently dealing and grappling with Category:Articles created by User:Marshallsumter, most of which are heavily cited and of notable topics, but which in close examination do not verify - the sources are there, but they don't quite say what the article says (as most are WP:SYNTH)-, and in fact have major copy-vio and WP:CWW issues, and hence are facing SNOW deletions etc. This user created hundreds of articles, and had autopatroller rights so his long-term creation of awful articles went unoticed by the NPP for at least a year. I suspect there are other similar cases to be uncovered, but this was a clear case were the verifiability issues were not provoked by a lack of sourcing, but by a lack of paying attention. I think this is a point Jimbo is raising: the issue is that it took TWO BLOODY YEARS to find this edit out, cite or no cite.
I think, in this particular case, there are issues of trust (ie we kinda trust Jimbo, don't we?) that could allow use to WP:IAR - but Jimbo is not a realiable source is something you have said, before, and that is a good editorial practice. And WP:V stands, "not truth" at all, because WP:IAR is policy.
But a rigid application of WP:V would mean removing all of that bit about sleeping for a short amount of time, and saying, well, "he slept less than an hour" or "sleep little" or some easier to verify information. The more general a claim, the easier it is to verify, I have found. --Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 20:53, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- I never said we need citations for everything. But every factual claim we make should also be found in some reliable source that a somewhat experienced reader or editor can find with some effort. That can be in the source given for nearby claims that are supported by footnotes, in a general reference for the subject that may be given only under "Further reading", or just some reliable source that can easily be found by googling for something obvious (e.g. "Nick Gowing '41.5'"). I think these requirements of mine for non-contentious claims are actually more lenient than what our policies and guidelines say -- probably because they are tailored for contentious claims. Hans Adler 21:47, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- If Wikipedia is going to insist on being a collection of trivia (such as minutes slept), then of course there are going to be these ongoing verifiability issues. I'm still waiting for someone to explain just why this is worth having in the article in the first place. Clue: if it's so difficult to verify, is that perhaps because no one else considered it important? Because it wasn't and isn't? imo it's one of those 'somewhat interesting at the time' factoids. This is always a worthwhile question to ask: Are we doing things right, or doing the right thing? 99.50.185.100 (talk) 00:22, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have three answers to this: (1) Basically I agree with you. Occasionally I get involved in BLP articles to remove trivia such as the price of the house someone bought, or the precise date of birth of someone's children. (2) There are still many cases in which it would be legitimate to use information that has not yet been published, e.g. to give an article depth, e.g. with typical examples. This is particularly important in articles on technical subjects that are hard to explain. We must take a lot of care to make them comprehensible, and so a certain amount of "original research" in the wider sense is totally normal for such articles. (3) This is a special case in that the incorrect "41.5 seconds" information is out there, at least on the internet. Yes, it's trivia, but we might as well correct this bit of trivia. Apparently the subject doesn't mind. Hans Adler 19:49, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- 'Thank you'. There is much wisdom in this exchange. I agree with most of what everyone has said, even when you disagree on some details. IP number 99.50.185.100 raises a perfectly valid question, even if on net I do think we should keep this in for the reason that Hans Adler mentions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:13, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have three answers to this: (1) Basically I agree with you. Occasionally I get involved in BLP articles to remove trivia such as the price of the house someone bought, or the precise date of birth of someone's children. (2) There are still many cases in which it would be legitimate to use information that has not yet been published, e.g. to give an article depth, e.g. with typical examples. This is particularly important in articles on technical subjects that are hard to explain. We must take a lot of care to make them comprehensible, and so a certain amount of "original research" in the wider sense is totally normal for such articles. (3) This is a special case in that the incorrect "41.5 seconds" information is out there, at least on the internet. Yes, it's trivia, but we might as well correct this bit of trivia. Apparently the subject doesn't mind. Hans Adler 19:49, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- If Wikipedia is going to insist on being a collection of trivia (such as minutes slept), then of course there are going to be these ongoing verifiability issues. I'm still waiting for someone to explain just why this is worth having in the article in the first place. Clue: if it's so difficult to verify, is that perhaps because no one else considered it important? Because it wasn't and isn't? imo it's one of those 'somewhat interesting at the time' factoids. This is always a worthwhile question to ask: Are we doing things right, or doing the right thing? 99.50.185.100 (talk) 00:22, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Comment As if on cue...Joan Collins has tweeted about an error in her Wikipedia article, according to this article in the Express. Disclaimer: it appears the problem is in the Nndb article, not Wikipedia. I notified Nndb. I'll check on Jean Marsh next. ;-) At any rate, it's a valid example of someone unhappy withe something on Wikipedia, and clueless (or bone-idle) about fixing it. 99.27.249.23 (talk) 01:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- There's a lively debate in Talk:Jose Baez (lawyer) that's totally on-point. Several sources say Baez was born in Puerto Rico. But Baez said in a Barbara Walters interview, and in an email to a wiki editor, that he was born in New York. Yet there is still some sentiment to say he was born in Puerto Rico. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:56, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have stayed away from it, because it seems to me as a storm in a teapot: he was born in NYC, but some sources incorrectly say PR. That's what the article should say. The problem is apparently being SNOWed in, but it would have been resolved by including and commenting on the incorrect sourcing, rather than insisting this sourcing was to be completely out. Contradictions in what verifiable reliable sources say, after all, are in fact deeply encyclopedic. See this for example: Hygroscopic which says the similar-sounding but unrelated word hydroscopic is sometimes used in error for hygroscopic. Identifying errors in RS is part of our mission. The problem is that the discussion became an all or nothing discussion, for both sides. That is not a V issue, that is a behavioral issue.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 20:08, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- It's a really nice example though of a situation where we have to use editorial judgment and we do use editorial judgment. My line about us not being transcription monkeys (and yours about not being truth rabbits) both come into play here. There was a conflict among sources, and we had to decide how to handle it. A few versions were possible: (a) complete agnosticism "some say the moon is made of rocks, some say cheese" (b) 'counting' sources - most say he was born in Peurto Rico, a few say New York or (c) what I call "verifiability and truth" - due respect for sources, careful avoidance of improper original research, but sound judgment in the end: he was actually born in New York, we have a trusted editor who talked to the man himself to verify what he already told Barbara Walters in an interview up against a lot of sources that pretty clearly just copied information that is "out there". I like (c) - it is what makes us a good encyclopedia. And yes, it does come with hazards. But writing a great reference source is never easy or formulaic.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:15, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Lets separate the issue of maintenance, from the issue of BLP and V
I like to cook, however, since English is my second language, I am sometimes in need of looking up terms in English. That bought me to Tea towel, which redirects to Towel. And there I found this: [1]. For several days, the article on a basic item, which has dozens of redirects (ie potential search terms) and hundreds of links into it, said: "HORRIBLE WEBSITE". I will join the discussion above, but this is an example on the very real issue of maintenance -outside of BLP, and speaks of the need to find better tools and better volunteer management and better community communication regarding vandalism than what we have now - huggle, rollbacker and AIV are good but clearly insufficient. Flagged revisions was a step in the right direction, IMHO, but obviously the community didn't want it - but it doesn't mean we should stop thinking about such kinds of revolutionary changes and doing less revolutionary changes in the mean time.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 20:53, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- So, 700 or so people clicked on the page during that time and did nothing. That suggests we should perhaps have a simple way for readers to flag obvious vandalism if they aren't willing and/or able to fix it themselves. Just like forums, a 'report abuse' link would probably take care of us - and perhaps get readers more into the concept of contributing something to Wikipedia. Obviously we're going to get some vandals reporting vandalism, but if we first check the pages with multiple reports it shouldn't be that much of a problem. I'd suggest a tab on the left side of 'Read' would be the best place. Easy to see but not intrusive. Guardian Cif has an excellent list of choices, which discourages those who simply disagree with the content or topic or whatever. 99.50.185.100 (talk) 00:06, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with this point as well. Providing the option for users to notify vandalism. The simple click of a button and, maybe also be able to provide a quick description of the problem. Admins would then evaluate the claim, and take the appropiate measure.--MarshalN20 | Talk 00:48, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Any user can (and should!) revert vandalism, no need to even get special tools, although rollbacker is awesome. My point is that we need a way to automatically flag potential vandalism. Such as flagged revisions.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 01:48, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Cerejota, you misunderstood the problem definition. 99.27.249.23 (talk) 03:04, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- I did understand it, but I disagree: I think the problem was that none of those 700 visitors noticed this was vandalism - not that they were unwilling/unable to revert or identify it as such. See the difference? It is so easy to revert vandalism that if it doesn't get reverted it usually means it has not been identified.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 22:34, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Cerejota, you misunderstood the problem definition. 99.27.249.23 (talk) 03:04, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Any user can (and should!) revert vandalism, no need to even get special tools, although rollbacker is awesome. My point is that we need a way to automatically flag potential vandalism. Such as flagged revisions.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 01:48, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with this point as well. Providing the option for users to notify vandalism. The simple click of a button and, maybe also be able to provide a quick description of the problem. Admins would then evaluate the claim, and take the appropiate measure.--MarshalN20 | Talk 00:48, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I am posting here, because I mentioned it above as an example, but then it became clear to me that there are deep interwiki issues here, and well, one of the best known interwikians is yourself. A particular specific on this case is that User:Marshallsumter seems to have used Wikiversity to plan, organize, and otherwise prepare what appears to be an elaborate "research" experiment on En-Wiki, and possibly other Wikimedia wikis. While our rules are at times very different than other Wikimedia wikis, I think there is basis to alert and mobilize the custodians and admins in other Wikimedia wikis to scrutinize and evaluate this user's behavior and take appropiate action as they see fit. There is overwhelming consensus this a disruptive user under en-Wiki rules (and frankly, common sense), but the situation might be unknown to the other wikis.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 23:50, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- Geez. Wikiversity.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:43, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- You, sir, can justly claim to be a Southerner. No one else says "Geez". That said, what I am missing? --Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 20:11, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it sounds to me like you haven't missed a thing. I'm not sure there is any particular reason to think that he's been conducting experiments on any other wiki. It's probably worth a quick look around. I don't know what other languages he knows. A likely target for this particular "experiment" might be wiktionary, so it's probably worth a look there.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:04, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- In his Wikibabel before the user page was cleared to place the blocked, and then banned, notice, he claimed very basic Danish, Dutch, Spanish, Italian, "Bokmal" Norwegian, Portuguese, and Russian. He also claimed basic German, French, and Latin. And English as primary language. Wikitionary? Hmmm true that, 'cause he was into neologisms etc. --Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 21:30, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it sounds to me like you haven't missed a thing. I'm not sure there is any particular reason to think that he's been conducting experiments on any other wiki. It's probably worth a quick look around. I don't know what other languages he knows. A likely target for this particular "experiment" might be wiktionary, so it's probably worth a look there.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:04, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- You, sir, can justly claim to be a Southerner. No one else says "Geez". That said, what I am missing? --Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 20:11, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
9/11 edit wars
The NYT ran this story. Adding things to templates.... 99.27.249.23 (talk) 03:49, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Incidentally, Newyorkbrad, who is quoted in that piece, has a comment about it on his talk page. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 12:34, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- I remember back not more than a year ago...links to the articles relating to 9/11 conspiricy theories appeared on the page for 9/11 Terrorist attacks (or so I remember, maybe I viewed a version where they were there and then another editor removed shortly after I left the page). I'm not sure why it was removed, but I believe it might be able to be put back. Wikipedia is not censored. Yes, it might be emotional, but the alternate "conspiricy theories" pop up in the news all the time, making them notable. A bit weird that the NY Times would be running a story quite like that. JguyTalkDone 13:08, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- It is bad publicity for Wikipedia. I think what may have happened is that a few of the regulars at that article started seeing the issue as a battle between them and the editors who were pushing for inclusion material on the conspiracy theories in the article. Thus, they let their emotions get the better of them and went too far by revert warring to prevent even the inclusion a link to the conspiracy theories' article in the "See also" section. So, in order to win the "battle", they strayed into censorship. Cla68 (talk) 00:25, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think it is bad publicity for Wikipedia. While I agree that the link should be included, it is a valid matter for editorial judgment. I very much disagree with you, as usual, that it is appropriate to characterize such things as "censorship". That's just false and inflammatory, and not a valid use of the concept.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:28, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- It is bad publicity for Wikipedia. I think what may have happened is that a few of the regulars at that article started seeing the issue as a battle between them and the editors who were pushing for inclusion material on the conspiracy theories in the article. Thus, they let their emotions get the better of them and went too far by revert warring to prevent even the inclusion a link to the conspiracy theories' article in the "See also" section. So, in order to win the "battle", they strayed into censorship. Cla68 (talk) 00:25, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- I remember back not more than a year ago...links to the articles relating to 9/11 conspiricy theories appeared on the page for 9/11 Terrorist attacks (or so I remember, maybe I viewed a version where they were there and then another editor removed shortly after I left the page). I'm not sure why it was removed, but I believe it might be able to be put back. Wikipedia is not censored. Yes, it might be emotional, but the alternate "conspiricy theories" pop up in the news all the time, making them notable. A bit weird that the NY Times would be running a story quite like that. JguyTalkDone 13:08, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Donations
Where can I find disclosure of who and how much is donated to Wikipedia? My76Strat (talk) 10:48, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- The most formal disclosures would be in the financial reports I suppose. This policy is probably worthy of review. Someone else may know of the location of other information, and I welcome comments here to help you find what you are looking for. Was there some specific question you had in mind?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:33, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, yes. I was gathering some links for articles I had rescued for the rescue squadren and I was reminded of this edit. I am curious if there was any truth to the post, because if so, I would have to count it as my most significant contribution. So I am curious. My76Strat (talk) 11:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Nice! There might be truth to it! There haven't been any $10 million gifts, I can tell you that for sure. Whether this particular request led to a large gift, though, I don't know.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:49, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Wow, that's interesting. I have reviewed each financial statement on record, and the period which includes this event also includes, by large margin, the largest influx of cash for the foundation. It would be great if it was shown to be true, at some level. And if so, it would be a testament to encourage civility. I remember the struggle this editor was experiencing to keep this article from being deleted. And I remember after painstaking research when I found a reference that supported the subjects notability (this edit alludes). Anyway, it is a nice thought to ponder. My76Strat (talk) 12:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Ha, that is great! Now, how about a commission for this person? Actually, seriously, suppose the Foundation had someone randomly troll for instances of unusually and materially welcoming-type behavior like this and emailed the person "If you're willing to send us your address (in confidence) we'll mail you a thank-you check for $X". Would this be cost-effective? Maybe. (I imagine that there are various problems with this that I haven't considered, so... maybe not. But who knows?) Herostratus (talk) 14:54, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Wow, that's interesting. I have reviewed each financial statement on record, and the period which includes this event also includes, by large margin, the largest influx of cash for the foundation. It would be great if it was shown to be true, at some level. And if so, it would be a testament to encourage civility. I remember the struggle this editor was experiencing to keep this article from being deleted. And I remember after painstaking research when I found a reference that supported the subjects notability (this edit alludes). Anyway, it is a nice thought to ponder. My76Strat (talk) 12:29, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Nice! There might be truth to it! There haven't been any $10 million gifts, I can tell you that for sure. Whether this particular request led to a large gift, though, I don't know.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:49, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, yes. I was gathering some links for articles I had rescued for the rescue squadren and I was reminded of this edit. I am curious if there was any truth to the post, because if so, I would have to count it as my most significant contribution. So I am curious. My76Strat (talk) 11:44, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
is a really bad idea; and it is full of mistakes and even harmful rules.--Müdigkeit (talk) 18:55, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- You'll need to be more specific and even then, this is not really going to be the most helpful venue for you.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:59, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
If you don't mind me asking, since terms of use are generally legally binding and presumably these are too, would the foundation ever consider taking legal action against people who break "4. Activities That You Agree to Refrain From"? Obviously I don't mean your run of the mill one time vandals but the serious, long-terms ones who make it their mission to be disrupt the project and threaten/harass editors--Jac16888 Talk 23:06, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know. Not my decision. It's a complex matter. I am personally in favor of it, if undertaken thoughtfully and carefully, with due consideration for all the various factors. The Foundation is currently involved in legal matters relating to one extremely problematic person (happy to talk to people I know about it privately, but let's not create a magnet by asking me who I mean here) who has issued explicit and credible threats of violence against various users of Wikipedia including me (and my daughter), but that's a pretty extreme case.
- I think the ones people would be interested in are persistent nuisance vandals who don't seem to be escalating into violence, but for whom a quick trip into court to have a judge tell them to knock it off just might do the trick. I would favor testing one or two of those as test cases.
- I'm not sure that the new terms of service actually changes the legal position of anything at all, by the way. I just don't know. I'm not a lawyer.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:35, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Political "silly season" is coming early
Again - might we have some semblance of logic during this season? Already we have folks trying to assign a "2.2" to Rick Perry's GPA and other miscellany of dubious value or use, and lots of stuff to every GOP candidate (there being no Democratic candidates for President to play with). This precisely falls under the lack of a real ArbCom decision about BLPs related to religion, politics, etc. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:06, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
- It's a very difficult matter. I have thought about this for many years, and I have come to the conclusion that there is no easy solution. We might imagine some rule or formula or process that would eliminate such editorial struggles, but I have never seen anything which seems to me to work.
- Taking your example - it's well within the range of reasonable argument that among the things that public ought to consider when selecting a President is their intellectual accomplishments, which would include among other things, their performance in school. It's no easy matter to draw the line between a thoughtful inclusion of such material, and the repeat of tabloid tittle-tattle of no real interest. Because it's no easy matter, it's really hard to come up with an a priori rule to help determine it... other than our time-tested BLP policies, which of course quite naturally and quite rightly require a lot of discussion to apply correctly in unique cases.
- Happy to hear suggestions, though. One of the things that I enjoy hosting on my talk page are general philosophical discussions, not immediately aimed at direct policy changes, but thoughtful discussions about the parameters of a problem, so that in other, more appropriate venues, we can approach policy changes with a richer understanding of the various tradeoffs to be managed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:56, 12 September 2011 (UTC)