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== Clarice E. Phelps == |
== Clarice E. Phelps == |
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What do you think, Jimmy Wales? How about, in instances wherein the community determines that a blp subject's notability to be a borderline /"too soon" case, Wikipedia allows a draft remain, for WP's 'coverage' for that individual, pending developments as can easily be anticipated with regard the person in question? As a case in point, whereas both the Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/it-matters-who-we-champion-in-science/2019/04/12/50a1781a-5d3d-11e9-9625-01d48d50ef75_story.html and Everipedia |
What do you think, Jimmy Wales? How about, in instances wherein the community determines that a blp subject's notability to be a borderline /"too soon" case, Wikipedia allows a draft remain, for WP's 'coverage' for that individual, pending developments as can easily be anticipated with regard the person in question? As a case in point, whereas both the Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/it-matters-who-we-champion-in-science/2019/04/12/50a1781a-5d3d-11e9-9625-01d48d50ef75_story.html and Everipedia has ''inaccurate'' information(!) within its article foe scientist Clarice Phelps (saying she co-discovered [[tennessine]]; hat tip-->[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Iridescent&diff=894491044&oldid=894461805]), WPdian-in-residence @ the NYPublicLibraryforthePerformingArts [[user:DGG]] believes her notable, due I believe an award she's received and stuff within her community for which she'd received coverage. Without space being in place at [[Draft:Clarice E. Phelps]], how can information most practically accrete regarding this scientist? Any thoughts?--[[User:Hodgdon's secret garden|Hodgdon's secret garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgdon's secret garden|talk]]) 21:17, 28 April 2019 (UTC)--[[User:Hodgdon's secret garden|Hodgdon's secret garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgdon's secret garden|talk]]) 03:12, 29 April 2019 (UTC) |
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: WaPo is an oped, with one of the authors of the oped being the author of the Wikipedia article. Our article (the first version) had a number of, umm, very novel claims on Phelps - including that she is a dr. (PhD) when she holds a b.sc (per a primary source - studying as of 2019 for a m.sc). We were also claiming she was the first African American woman to discover an element - which possibly [[WP:CITOGEN]]ed elsewhere (though RSes, published after Wikipedia, have caged this with an "as far as we know..."). Phelps at the time tennessine was discovered was a new ORNL hire with the job title "Nuclear Operations Technician" and she was "on the team tasked with purifying the berkelium-249 used to confirm the discovery of element 117, tennessine." per ORNL. The bio on Phelps illustrated why bios should not be built of primary sources and PR. Everipedia.org reads similar to one of the versions that was on Wikipedia (after the doctorate was removed - but she still has a master's there while the cited sources do not state completion).21:38, 28 April 2019 (UTC) |
: WaPo is an oped, with one of the authors of the oped being the author of the Wikipedia article. Our article (the first version) had a number of, umm, very novel claims on Phelps - including that she is a dr. (PhD) when she holds a b.sc (per a primary source - studying as of 2019 for a m.sc). We were also claiming she was the first African American woman to discover an element - which possibly [[WP:CITOGEN]]ed elsewhere (though RSes, published after Wikipedia, have caged this with an "as far as we know..."). Phelps at the time tennessine was discovered was a new ORNL hire with the job title "Nuclear Operations Technician" and she was "on the team tasked with purifying the berkelium-249 used to confirm the discovery of element 117, tennessine." per ORNL. The bio on Phelps illustrated why bios should not be built of primary sources and PR. Everipedia.org reads similar to one of the versions that was on Wikipedia (after the doctorate was removed - but she still has a master's there while the cited sources do not state completion).21:38, 28 April 2019 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 03:13, 29 April 2019
Could you help me help Assange?
Jimbo, could you please try to get this info to Assange's lawyer?
In the CNN interview linked to here, at the 1 minute 8 second mark, Senator Hatch says;
"you can make anything a crime under the current laws, if you want to, you can blow it out of proportion, you can do a lot of things."
A Canadian lawyer told me that Magna Carta rights and British law should prevent Britain, in keeping with her commitment to the principles of fundamental justice, from extraditing anyone to any country where "you can make anything a crime". It would be no different from extraditing someone to North Korea.
I tried unsuccessfully to reach Jennifer Robinson, his lawyer, so I'm hoping you have some contacts who could get this video in her hands. Nocturnalnow (talk) 19:44, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
- "Magna Carta rights" - good grief. Anyway, the relevant law here is of course the European Convention on Human Rights. However, what Orrin Hatch thinks is irrelevant, because as long as the basic tenets of the American judicial system meet the requirements of Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights, then lawfully there's no issue with Assange being extradited. And the UK has extradited people to the US before. Black Kite (talk) 00:05, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- That's very interesting about Article 6 because it says there must be a presumption of innocence, which there surely is not. As far as others being extradited, perhaps they had a chance at a presumption of innocence, but not so with Assange, if we're honest we all know that, I think. Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Orinn Hatch is neither sitting on any jury, nor is he the presiding judge, over any case involving Mr. Assange. What he says means diddly squat. Politicians stay stupid stuff all the time. It means nothing in this regard. Pay it no mind. --Jayron32 14:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- ok, but the "presumption of innocence" that Article 6, above, mandates (in order to be extradited), is certainly not present in the USA regarding Assange. You'd have to be deaf, dumb and blind to think he's presumed innocent there. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:31, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Orinn Hatch is neither sitting on any jury, nor is he the presiding judge, over any case involving Mr. Assange. What he says means diddly squat. Politicians stay stupid stuff all the time. It means nothing in this regard. Pay it no mind. --Jayron32 14:59, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- That's very interesting about Article 6 because it says there must be a presumption of innocence, which there surely is not. As far as others being extradited, perhaps they had a chance at a presumption of innocence, but not so with Assange, if we're honest we all know that, I think. Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- If I remember correctly, Jimbo is not a fan of Assange. In any case I doubt if he has any contacts with Assange's lawyer. Have you tried the Yellow Pages under "L"? :-) Smallbones(smalltalk) 01:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I do not think that it is appropriate for Wikipedia, the Wikimedia Foundation or Jimbo acting in his official capacity to get involved with political issues that do not threaten the existence or functioning of Wikipedia. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:22, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- He's a criminal whose organization colluded with the Russian government to influence the U.S. election. Let him make his defense in court instead of finding a closet to hide in. It's not Wikimedia's role to get involved with international espionage. Liz Read! Talk! 01:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Liz: How is he a criminal? He hasn't been convicted of any crimes so your assertion is clearly false, and worse, attacking a living person with false statements, see WP:BLP. I'm sure you wouldn't wasnt to be called a criminal without having been convicted of anything. Show some respect for living people. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 11:03, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- I just read the indictment and he is only accused of trying to figure out a password which he never did figure out. Wow, what a huge crime...trying to figure out someone's password. Its shameful how our main stream media is misleading most of us into thinking he's accused of actually having "hacked" into secret computers....its the difference between wanting to commit a crime and actually doing it, but like Senator Hatch said; ""you can make anything a crime under the current(USA) laws, if you want to, you can blow it out of proportion".
- Actually this indictment is a perfect example of the habitual fraud perpetuated by the USA justice(lol) system that Hatch exposes.
- You'd think after the "Iraq has WMDs" scam they would not get such almost universal acceptance of their lying accusations and conspiracy theories; but then, as I learned in business school (paraphrasing) "Its all about the branding, baby"....or as P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute", and one thing American big business/federal government is good at, its branding aka bullshit. Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- He's a criminal whose organization colluded with the Russian government to influence the U.S. election. Let him make his defense in court instead of finding a closet to hide in. It's not Wikimedia's role to get involved with international espionage. Liz Read! Talk! 01:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I do not think that it is appropriate for Wikipedia, the Wikimedia Foundation or Jimbo acting in his official capacity to get involved with political issues that do not threaten the existence or functioning of Wikipedia. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:22, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- WikiMedia should speak out against the serious human rights violations against Assange for his role in disclosing the truth the US and other governments wanted to hide. Statement by Special Rapporteur on extra-judicial executions, Agnes Callamard: "in “expelling Assange from the Embassy” and allowing his arrest, it had taken Mr. Assange “one step closer to extradition”. She added that the UK had now arbitrarily-detained the controversial anti-secrecy journalist and campaigner, “possibly endangering his life”." We can also read there: "In a statement last Friday, Special Rapporteur on torture, Nils Melzer, said he was alarmed by reports that an arrest was imminent, and that if extradited, Mr. Assange could be exposed to “a real risk of serious violations of his human rights, including his freedom of expression, his right to a fair trial, and the prohibition of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”
- Late last year UN experts urged the UK to honour rights obligations and let Mr. Julian Assange leave Ecuador embassy in London freely "“The United Kingdom has ratified the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and has a responsibility to honour its commitment, by respecting its provisions in all cases,” the experts said.
- “As the High Commissioner for human rights said several years ago, human rights treaty law is binding law, it is not discretionary law. It is not some passing fancy that a state can apply sometimes and not in the other,” the experts recalled.
- “In addition, the recommendations of the WGAD Opinions are expected to be implemented by all States, including those which have not been a party in the case concerning Mr. Assange,” said the experts." Count Iblis (talk) 01:48, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Assange is being targeted because of WikiLeaks disclosures, this is something that should make WikiMedia concerned. If a WikiMedia site were to publish information that the US doesn't want to be disclosed, WikiMedia may also be targeted. Nebulous charges like "conspiracy to engage in computer hacking", or if that doesn't work it may be "conspiracy to engage in a conspiracy to engage in computer hacking" will be issued. Count Iblis (talk) 06:09, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Slippery slope arguments aren't always invalid. but the are not sufficient reason to change Wikipedia into a political advocacy group. The reason they are not sufficient is that pretty much any political POV pusher can put together a slippery slope argument. Be careful what you wish for; in your imagination if you were to actually succeed at turning Wikipedia into a political advocacy group the WMF would only advocate for the same things you advocate for. In reality if we make Wikipedia into a political advocacy group it may very well end up advocating things you despise. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:49, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Count Iblis' point is profound, imo. Here we see that publishing the Pentagon Papers or any of the Snowden info is already a crime. Our U.S. Justice masters just haven't felt like charging us yet. "18 U.S. Code § 798.Disclosure of classified information: (a)Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information—..(3)concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government;...Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both." Heads in the sand never helps. Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:50, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think Assange's lawyers would find a quote from a Senator particularly relevant or meaningful in this context. I further think that what Senator Hatch was saying is in one sense not accurate at all but in another sense true of pretty much every country. There are enough complex and ambiguous laws everywhere to mean that a sufficiently motivated bad faith prosecutor can cause a lot of headache for someone. But I agree with Black Kite - it is unlikely that me contacting someone with this quote would be helpful. I am sure his lawyers will be making a variety of arguments as to why the UK shouldn't extradite him.
- I also don't have any real contact with anyone in Assange's organization. I know some people who know him or knew him - he has a consistent pattern of falling out with people - but I can't think at the moment of any direct way of getting in touch.
- I am a big supporter of freedom of expression, and that support doesn't hinge on whether or not I like the person, so I'm not sure why that's even being raised as a question here. I think that the core of what Assange has done (publishing documents) is fully protected by the First Amendment and there is basically zero chance that any direct attack on that would get anywhere with the US Federal court system. What he is being accused of is a different matter, and I have no opinion whatsoever about whether his is innocent or guilty of those charges. But I am quite sure that the relevant court will stick straight to that - remember that whatever faults the US has (and of course there are many), it does have a very independent Federal judiciary (despite Trump's occasional ranting).
- Just for completeness, I don't completely agree with Guy Macon's view on what the WMF or I should speak about, although my view is not far from his. I think it a mistake to define the parameters so narrowly as "the existence or functioning of Wikipedia" - such a remit would, for example, require the WMF to act far too timidly and "corporate" in the sense of looking after it's own narrow interests even when at the expense of the broader movement and the ecosystem that we are trying to achieve. Article 13 of the new European Copyright Directive has an explicit exemption for Wikipedia, so Guy's view as stated here is that we should stay silent (giving therefore our implicit consent) to something that is bad for a free and open Internet.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:24, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Your support of freedom of expression is precious, and I have confidence that you will find ways to make some difference against the injustices some desire to commit against Assange and independent journalism. What is happening here is that the original sin of the internet has come home to roost. Prohibiting "hacking" was always a violation of freedom of expression, and many of us knew it. At first, the prohibition only meant that teenage hackers were hit with threats of jail instead of good paying jobs securing computers. Then we lost Aaron Swartz. North Korea and China (oh, and Russia also) became Internet superpowers, using their right to do to our computers what our kids and activists did not dare to. Now we see an Australian working in Europe who dared publish something supposedly he had a right to, being prosecuted for it based on United States "law", using the argument that saying you tried to understand a math problem constitutes conspiracy. Predicate logic tells us that "false proves anything", but it was hard to believe we'd see it done in practice. Everything built on the rotten foundations of copyright and legal privilege for at least the past half century may collapse into nothing.
- We should begin to contemplate how to make Wikipedia relevant to a post-computing era where delvers of forbidden knowledge need to work in conditions of absolute secrecy. Wnt (talk) 19:19, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- The Federal judiciary are not independent and they are stupid as well.Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:22, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
- Exactly, Wikipedia is not an impediment to freedom of expression and shouldn't be. WMF complies only when there's an absolute basis to do so and the community has taken up matters when necessary (SOPA/PIPA), so I do not suspect we will when it's needed. Unfortunately, there's not much us yelling can do in court for Assange. --qedk (t 桜 c) 20:39, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- None of us know for sure the impact of our actions before we take them. All any of us can do is what we think we should be doing. In this case, its highly unlikely that WMF sticking up for Assange in court ( I don't think anybody is suggesting "yelling") can do Assange any harm, and it might, just might, do Assange some good.
- Now I can't say that sticking up for Assange (not to be extradited to the USA) won't put WMF, or Jimbo, on some kind of USA list or watch list, but I do not think that is anything they are concerned about. Nocturnalnow (talk) 14:21, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
Defining moment of non-reaction
Here, with Wikipedia's (and others') help, Assange and Chelsea Manning showed the free world how reporters were gunned down while their killers laughed: "Collateral Murder, showed that the crew encountered a firefight and laughed at some of the casualties, some of which were civilians and reporters." The world would not even know about this horrific exposure of evil were it not for Assange's activities.
I heard several commentators on main stream media yesterday, including the CBC, take the position that Assange did some good deeds in the past and then they pivoted to an assumption of guilt of a "shame"ful crime re: the current indictment..it was if they were all reading the same script, e.g. one American commentator on CBC said exactly "Shame on him for doing this (attempt to figure out a password)".
We Wikipedians all know that "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing" So, I still think...no, I know...Jimbo, you can do something to help Assange. Heck, you are even in the neighbourhood where he's jailed. Maybe some of us think its ok if we do not have access to knowing about war crimes perpetuated by the USA as shown in "Collateral Murder"...its certainly easier to just become "yes" men for the obvious bullies of this world, or at least not get in their way; they always provide some kind of twisted justification for the masses of people to go along with their twisted rationales. Jimbo, if you are feeling impotent about this because, as you say, "he has a consistent pattern of falling out with people", I'd suggest just standing out side his jail with a sign giving the URL to July 12, 2007, Baghdad airstrike and thanking Assange for releasing that shocking bit of truth for the whole world to see and read about on Wikipedia....and I'm not suggesting you do anything more risky or time consuming than things I've done myself to fight the tendency to look on and do nothing. Nocturnalnow (talk) 13:58, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Re: "Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing", Are you saying that the WMF should speak out on the topics of prison rape, the war on drugs, asset forfeiture, the US government budget, the UK government budget, nuclear proliferation, climate change, gay marriage, the Israel-Palestine conflict, the India-Pakistan conflict, free trade, farm subsidies, drug prices, labor conditions at Apple, gun control, abortion, student loans, smoking, inflation in Venezuela, and the baggage retrieval system at heathrow? There are already hundreds of political advocacy websites, but only one viable online encyclopedia. Aren't those hundreds of political advocacy websites enough? Do you have to try to make Wikipedia into one as well? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:22, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Guy, what I am saying is Assange caused important information to become part of the encyclopedia and available to the world's people and that its a threat to freedom of the press the way he has been demonized by the USA government. Ron Paul spoke into the Congressional Record some 8 years ago about the stupidity of Assange being "an enemy of the state". Paul backed up his opinion by explaining the extreme importance of a Wikileaks leak of a diplomatic cable showing that the Gulf War was caused by a trap that GHW Bush set for Saddam, and that trick led to, according to Paul, 9/11 and everything since then....and most relevantly, Paul says;
- "Julian Assange, the publisher of the WikiLeaks memo, is now considered an enemy of the state. Politicians are calling for drastic punishment and even assassination; and, sadly, the majority of the American people seem to support such moves. But why should we so fear the truth? Why should our government's lies and mistakes be hidden from the American people in the name of patriotism? Once it becomes acceptable to equate truth with treason, we can no longer call ourselves a free society." Nocturnalnow (talk) 03:26, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia can't right every wrong, but we surely could do more to defend "WP:BLP" in regard to the article on Jeremy Corbyn, who has expressed some opposition to the notion of an extraordinary rendition to the United States [1] and represents a hope for a political solution to stop Assange's persecution. I don't know a lot of British politics, but the article has long showcased, for example, allegations by the impeccable Daily Mail that focus on the fact that Corbyn attended a conference event that was held at a pavilion in a cemetery that happened to be close to some terrorists' graves. In section after section the article keelhauls him for make-believe offenses like being reluctant to censor a mural or to deport someone for pro-Palestinian activism. Surely there is some way Wikipedia could do better there. Wnt (talk) 04:10, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think it accurate to characterize Corbyn's position as mere "opposition to the notion of an extraordinary rendition". He opposes any extradition to the United States. There has been no suggestion and there is no genuine possibility of Assange being transferred to the US without a legal process, so it would be odd for Corbyn to be opposed to that. Please stay clearly factual, as hysteria doesn't help fight injustice.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:20, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- I apologize for my lack of clarity and perhaps hyperbole. What I meant was that Corbyn does not oppose proper extradition of Assange to Sweden, the country which originally made the request for extradition. However, according to the letter signed by over 70 Labour MPs ([2]) the U.S. Department of Justice had been tipped off that asylum would be revoked, and was ready with a case, while Sweden has had to scramble to get ready, and now it is by no means clear that Britain will send Assange to Sweden at all, let alone with any precondition against his extradition to the U.S. Simply put, the ordinary process of extradition appears at risk of being defeated, while the extraordinary process of extraditing Assange to face a political charge, in contradiction to the extradition treaty, appears to take priority. In my mind, I did not think that 'extraordinary rendition' was inappropriate to use for such a back-room maneuver, even if Assange is not actually bundled onto a plane in secret. Wnt (talk) 23:18, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Regarding the use of the phrase "'extraordinary rendition" to mean something other than extraordinary rendition, it hinders communication when you redefine words or phrases like that. Yes, you can decide to use non-standard fleemishes and the reader can still gloork the meaning from the context, but there ix a limit; If too many ot the vleeps are changed, it becomes harder and qixer to fllf what the wethcz is blorping, and evenually izs is bkb longer possible to ghilred frok at wifx. Dnighth? Ngfipht yk ur! Uvq the hhvd or hnnngh. Blorgk? Blorgk! Blorgkity-blorgk!!!! --Guy Macon (talk) 23:34, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- To me it seems the criteria have at least technically been met. Assange, an Ecuadorian citizen, was dragged from the country's territory in a way that was not supposed to happen, no matter what connivance was procured from a dishonest official, for purposes of an illegitimate extradition for political ends, and to our great shame we cannot even say that torture is an unlikely outcome at this point. Wnt (talk) 07:15, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Please use the same meanings for words and phrases that other people use. "The Ecuadorean government suspended the citizenship it had granted Mr. Assange and evicted him on Thursday, clearing the way for his arrest."[3] "[British] police said they arrested Assange, 47, after being invited into the embassy following Ecuador’s withdrawal of asylum."[4] Nothing illegal happened, and thus it was not an extraordinary rendition. Blorgkity-blorgk. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:12, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Have you ever heard of citizenship being "suspended" before??? What does it mean to have citizenship "suspended"? A right to citizenship is one of the more fundamental bureaucratic principles of international law, and this 'suspension' came in the form, as far as I can tell, of an announcement by the Foreign Minister. [5] There was no due process involved there.
- Let's take a parallel example and see what you say about it. Suppose Erdogan visits Washington and his security guards start another fracas with demonstrators, like last time. This time, instead of merely pardoning all the attackers, suppose the U.S. government decides to send a message and tells Erdogan's thugs "OK boys, go ahead and grab half a dozen of those troublemakers and take them on the plane back to Istanbul to talk about FETO conspiracies." And they go on and explain themselves "look, they abused their welcome here, they were on visas, some of them were skateboarding on our sidewalks!" The demonstrators protest that at least they ought to get deported back to Canada or Iran or wherever they came from instead, but instead they get 'deported' to Turkey. Would you call that extraordinary rendition? Wnt (talk) 12:23, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- List of denaturalized former citizens of the United States Bitter Oil (talk) 15:36, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Note the references in that article to U.S. District Court, even the Supreme Court, or agreements made, or deportations never performed. Revoking citizenship in the U.S. (not 'suspending' it, whatever that means!) is a big deal, and even the Trump administration is stopped in many cases by "a very high bar" which may not be met even by outright lies during the application itself. [6] Now any defender of Assange should say that Ecuador does not have to slavishly copy U.S. law in every niggling detail ... that is, after all, a major point of objecting to his prosecution ... but the right to citizenship in international law would not appear to condone random revocations without any legal process at all. Wnt (talk) 02:15, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Felony disenfranchisement Bitter Oil (talk) 03:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- FWIW Vijay Prashad (in an editorial about Ola Bini) called Assange's arrest "an act of extraordinary rendition in plain sight". [7] Wnt (talk) 10:12, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
- Note the references in that article to U.S. District Court, even the Supreme Court, or agreements made, or deportations never performed. Revoking citizenship in the U.S. (not 'suspending' it, whatever that means!) is a big deal, and even the Trump administration is stopped in many cases by "a very high bar" which may not be met even by outright lies during the application itself. [6] Now any defender of Assange should say that Ecuador does not have to slavishly copy U.S. law in every niggling detail ... that is, after all, a major point of objecting to his prosecution ... but the right to citizenship in international law would not appear to condone random revocations without any legal process at all. Wnt (talk) 02:15, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- List of denaturalized former citizens of the United States Bitter Oil (talk) 15:36, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Please use the same meanings for words and phrases that other people use. "The Ecuadorean government suspended the citizenship it had granted Mr. Assange and evicted him on Thursday, clearing the way for his arrest."[3] "[British] police said they arrested Assange, 47, after being invited into the embassy following Ecuador’s withdrawal of asylum."[4] Nothing illegal happened, and thus it was not an extraordinary rendition. Blorgkity-blorgk. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:12, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- To me it seems the criteria have at least technically been met. Assange, an Ecuadorian citizen, was dragged from the country's territory in a way that was not supposed to happen, no matter what connivance was procured from a dishonest official, for purposes of an illegitimate extradition for political ends, and to our great shame we cannot even say that torture is an unlikely outcome at this point. Wnt (talk) 07:15, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Regarding the use of the phrase "'extraordinary rendition" to mean something other than extraordinary rendition, it hinders communication when you redefine words or phrases like that. Yes, you can decide to use non-standard fleemishes and the reader can still gloork the meaning from the context, but there ix a limit; If too many ot the vleeps are changed, it becomes harder and qixer to fllf what the wethcz is blorping, and evenually izs is bkb longer possible to ghilred frok at wifx. Dnighth? Ngfipht yk ur! Uvq the hhvd or hnnngh. Blorgk? Blorgk! Blorgkity-blorgk!!!! --Guy Macon (talk) 23:34, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- I apologize for my lack of clarity and perhaps hyperbole. What I meant was that Corbyn does not oppose proper extradition of Assange to Sweden, the country which originally made the request for extradition. However, according to the letter signed by over 70 Labour MPs ([2]) the U.S. Department of Justice had been tipped off that asylum would be revoked, and was ready with a case, while Sweden has had to scramble to get ready, and now it is by no means clear that Britain will send Assange to Sweden at all, let alone with any precondition against his extradition to the U.S. Simply put, the ordinary process of extradition appears at risk of being defeated, while the extraordinary process of extraditing Assange to face a political charge, in contradiction to the extradition treaty, appears to take priority. In my mind, I did not think that 'extraordinary rendition' was inappropriate to use for such a back-room maneuver, even if Assange is not actually bundled onto a plane in secret. Wnt (talk) 23:18, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think it accurate to characterize Corbyn's position as mere "opposition to the notion of an extraordinary rendition". He opposes any extradition to the United States. There has been no suggestion and there is no genuine possibility of Assange being transferred to the US without a legal process, so it would be odd for Corbyn to be opposed to that. Please stay clearly factual, as hysteria doesn't help fight injustice.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:20, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia can't right every wrong, but we surely could do more to defend "WP:BLP" in regard to the article on Jeremy Corbyn, who has expressed some opposition to the notion of an extraordinary rendition to the United States [1] and represents a hope for a political solution to stop Assange's persecution. I don't know a lot of British politics, but the article has long showcased, for example, allegations by the impeccable Daily Mail that focus on the fact that Corbyn attended a conference event that was held at a pavilion in a cemetery that happened to be close to some terrorists' graves. In section after section the article keelhauls him for make-believe offenses like being reluctant to censor a mural or to deport someone for pro-Palestinian activism. Surely there is some way Wikipedia could do better there. Wnt (talk) 04:10, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
(Topic) bans and Jimbo's talk page
- I'm new here, so perhaps it isn't my place to say anything, but it looks like User:Nocturnalnow is banned from discussing American politics (since 1932) "on all pages of Wikipedia". Of course, the ramblings here hardly amount to a discussion, but the subject does seem to relate to American politics. Bitter Oil (talk) 21:24, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- I also have topic bans, including for economics, because my opinions about productivity and growth were considered unacceptable by the community. I occasionally disregard that ban here on Jimbo's talk page as a limited act of civil disobedience, under the implied permission of Jimbo's statement that he wants open communications from banned editors, presumably so that his nominal right to grant appeals from ArbCom decisions (which he apparently never uses) is not foreclosed. Note that Jimbo occasionally rescinds such permission on a case-by-case basis, and in any case I would not presume to speak for him. I would, however, like to provide another data point in Nocturnalnow's defense. I was also topic banned three years ago from discussing the activities of organizations associated with insecticides, and abided my that restriction absolutely, without any civil disobedience here or elsewhere, until very recently, when I had so completely forgotten about that topic ban I made some comments I was forced to strike after I earnestly brought them directly to the attention of ArbCom in a clarification request. I honestly had completely forgotten I was under that restriction. Anyway, I know that reasonable people have reasonable differences of opinion about whether Jimbo has discretion to allow the banned to speak here, but I'm glad he does. I intend to appeal both of my topic bans and I think Nocturnalnow should appeal his, too.
- As for my opinion of Assange, it is very similar to that of The Intercept, both very strongly in his favor and very strongly opposed. And while former Wikimedia Foundation spokesman User:David Gerard has closer ties to Assange than Jimbo ever had or ever will, and the chance that Jimbo wants to get involved is minuscule, I would more prefer these discussions occurring than not. I am sure that reasonable people can and do reasonably disagree.
- @Bitter Oil: you say you are "new here" and your contribution history stretches back a whole week. I would like to know more about the circumstances under which you learned about Nocturnalnow's topic ban, although if you want to keep that to yourself, that is fine with me, too. EllenCT (talk) 21:57, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't think your opinion of Assange is relevant to a discussion of someone's (topic) ban, but thanks for letting us know. If Jimbo considers this page to be a special case, then I suppose Nocturnalnow's comments here aren't a violation. But how about this edit to QAnon. It specifically mentions politicians in regard to a crackpot theory about pedophiles. Or this edit to Illegal immigration to the United States where Nocturnalnow adds a link to a CNN townhall featuring Nancy Pelosi? Bitter Oil (talk) 22:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, you're quite welcome, and let's get back on topic. For what reason are you asking that Nocturnalnow's topic ban be observed? EllenCT (talk) 00:01, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- If you tell some ill-informed conspiracy nut with poor reasoning skills and no understanding of legal systems to stay away from politics because they've spent months injecting nonsense into articles about living people, I would think you'd want to "observe" that topic ban. Just as a hypothetical example. Bitter Oil (talk) 15:30, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- One of the great things about getting old is mosquitoes don't bother me anymore...its nice to still be of some use. Nocturnalnow (talk) 14:39, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- If you tell some ill-informed conspiracy nut with poor reasoning skills and no understanding of legal systems to stay away from politics because they've spent months injecting nonsense into articles about living people, I would think you'd want to "observe" that topic ban. Just as a hypothetical example. Bitter Oil (talk) 15:30, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, you're quite welcome, and let's get back on topic. For what reason are you asking that Nocturnalnow's topic ban be observed? EllenCT (talk) 00:01, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
- What? "If Jimbo considers this page to be a special case, then I suppose Nocturnalnow's comments here aren't a violation"? Wrong. Nobody, and this includes Jimbo, is allowed to say that their talk page is a place where one can freely violate Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. There is a good argument that this isn't post-1932 US politics, but if it is, the topic ban applies to all pages on Wikipedia. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:30, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Basically it is Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Appeal_to_Jimbo_Wales. Specifically
A topic banned editor cannot discuss the topic ban or topic on Jimbo's talk page, but is allowed to appeal the topic ban to Jimbo Wales.
PackMecEng (talk) 14:54, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
- Basically it is Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Appeal_to_Jimbo_Wales. Specifically
- I don't think your opinion of Assange is relevant to a discussion of someone's (topic) ban, but thanks for letting us know. If Jimbo considers this page to be a special case, then I suppose Nocturnalnow's comments here aren't a violation. But how about this edit to QAnon. It specifically mentions politicians in regard to a crackpot theory about pedophiles. Or this edit to Illegal immigration to the United States where Nocturnalnow adds a link to a CNN townhall featuring Nancy Pelosi? Bitter Oil (talk) 22:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Julian Assange is an Australian, in Britain, fighting extradition to Sweden. Meanwhile, neither American party (including the chief beneficiaries of the information he helped to report to the public) is speaking up on his behalf. If this is American politics, it is the kind that has no political issue conceivably coming up for vote in the U.S. and which is being applied entirely outside its borders ... at least for now. If a topic ban on "American politics" affects that, what doesn't it affect? I should add that I just recently got a boilerplate notice on my talk page about "American politics" over a browser plug-in that lets people post to a would-be social media competitor. My feeling is that this "post-1932" decision has become an interstate commerce clause allowing AE authority over anything and everything on Wikipedia. I imagine if you post about a species of frog, it might be evaluated by the EPA or its import regulated by Customs, so it's post-1932 American politics! Wnt (talk) 23:13, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Nocturnalnow is talking about extradition to the US and specifically references both the "USA (sic) justice system" and US laws. Bitter Oil (talk) 23:32, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia ----> Real World
- Nocturnalnow ----> Assange
- Topic ban violations ------> WikiLeaks' activities that the US objects to
- ArbCom ------> Court
- Count Iblis (talk) 10:29, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
Did you know about this? Re: Assange's future contributions to Wikipedia content
Prevented by treaty from invading the Holy See's embassy, U.S. soldiers from Delta Force erected a perimeter around the Nunciature. Psychological warfare specialists were brought in to attempt to dislodge him, including blaring rock music, and turning a nearby field into a helicopter landing zone. After ten days, Noriega surrendered on January 3, 1990.[2][130] He was detained as a prisoner of war, and later taken to the United States.[1][22]''
Jimbo, did you know that this actually happened?
I did not. Only by hearing something yesterday on CNN about Barr having redacted important info for congress in 1989 and then looking at links in the William Barr article did I come upon this.
The sources for that content are 2012 and 2017. My point is, if Assange had been around in 1989/1990 more of the world's peoples, and politicians, would have likely known about this psychological attack upon an embassy of the Pope way back then and been able to incorporate that knowledge over the past 30 years.
For me, this proves the worth of Assange to Wikipedia going forward as well as his use to all of the reliable media of the world....and more relevantly, it proves to me that Assange is an ALLY of Wikipedia's mission statement, and that WMF should treat him as an important ally in any way we can. What do you think? Nocturnalnow (talk) 13:24, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
- Operation Nifty Package was an article created in 2005. Nocturnalnow for your reading pleasure. Not sure Assange contributed to it. 2600:8800:1300:A2E:0:0:0:1000 (talk) 04:39, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- Everyone in the entire world knew about that—it was the lead news story worldwide for a week, and there were camera crews camped out outside the embassy for the duration. You've not stumbled across some kind of conspiracy. ‑ Iridescent 14:05, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have to agree. Nonetheless, the way that the public swallowed the idea of invading a country and deposing its dictator based on some allegations of involvement with drugs was somewhat remarkable. That is more about media bias and control than secrecy. On the other hand, the lack of protest also had something to do with that it was the 1990s, End of History, when dictators seemed like they were on the way out and people actually believed they could be replaced by democracy. As it happens, Panama, whatever its crooked or even colonialist politics may be, still counts now as a country with transitions of power, and few in the rest of the world actually know who Juan Carlos Varela is because (unusually for leaders nowadays) he doesn't brag about torture or death squads or rounding up political prisoners.
- The problem we have going forward is that constant pressure to censor 'mainstream' sites like Facebook and even Wikipedia of unpopular opinions (like racism) is dumping all of that opinion into a shrinking pool of free-thinking sites, which are being degraded by all the ideological waste. The next step of course is to declare those to be "toxic cesspools" where bad ideas could turn violent, and act to censor them and give an oligarchy of corporations a government mandated monopoly. And the invasions they will have people not thinking about will be nothing so kind as the disposal of Noriega. Wnt (talk) 14:25, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
- Iridescent, you are 100 % wrong about this. If "the entire world knew about this", why was the US Military Operation Just Cause: Panama Office of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff our only source regarding the capture as late as 2011. Also, just to be clear, are you saying there was news coverage in the USA showing the psychological warfare/blasting noise aimed at the Holy See's embassy? Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:18, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
- No, it was all over the place when it happened. Late-night talk shows were suggesting songs that should be played. This really was all over the place back then. That may be the only source used in the article, but assuming that means it's the only source available is pretty sad. Ravensfire (talk) 23:29, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
- Even by the standards of this talk page, this is weapons-grade, molecularly distilled ignorance. Yes, of course there was contemporaneous US news coverage of the use of loud music as a psychological weapon against Noriega. For instance, Tom Friedman wrote in the New York Times on December 28, 1989: "For now the only assault on the Nunciature appears by in the form of rock music being blasted at the Vatican Embassy at a very loud volume over speakers by United States Army troops ringing the building in the seaside Paitilla district of Panama City." On the following day (December 30, 1989), the Times noted complaints from the Vatican on its front page: "When Mr. Navarro (a Vatican spokesman) was asked about the blockade of the Papal Nunciature in Panama City by American troops and their practice of blasting the building with rock music, he said it was 'a very serious matter,' unacceptable under international law because it interfered with diplomatic activity." The Times reiterated the issue several days later, on January 5, 1990: "(A Vatican spokesman) also criticized Washington's decision to install a powerful sound system outside the Vatican embassy and blast loud rock music at the building in an apparent attempt to exasperate General Noriega. The music was suspended 24 hours later." Hey, if only Julian Assange had been around in the 1970's, then the public would have heard about the Watergate break-in! My unsolicited advice to you (Nocturnalnow) is that 10 seconds of critical thinking and assumption-checking can spare you a lifetime of looking like a fool. MastCell Talk 00:01, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- ok, but I am not assuming that was the only source but that there wasn't any more unbiased source, because if there was a less biased source than the US military, why would that unbiased alternative not have been used? I guess I was wrong, obviously, about the level of media exposure of the event; I was working pretty hard in 1990. But I still have to wonder whether Assange's Wikileaks, had they existed, might have received some evidence as to exactly what the rationale for this invasion was, especially given all the history of cooperation between Noriega and Bush. Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:52, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
- God only knows what I was doing in 1990. The point is that I'm capable of spending 30 seconds on Google right now to check my assumptions. As are you, in theory. MastCell Talk 00:03, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- You're right; absolutely; I should have done that. Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:29, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- God only knows what I was doing in 1990. The point is that I'm capable of spending 30 seconds on Google right now to check my assumptions. As are you, in theory. MastCell Talk 00:03, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- But good grief, can't we all agree that the Pentagon Papers and Snowden and Assange have been allies of Wikipedia's level of comprehensiveness? And if so, then shouldn't WMF do what it can to fight against such aggressive demonization of these sources? Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:59, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, it was everywhere at the time. I remember suggesting really twee pop music rather than heavy metal, but whatever. Anyway, here's [the BBC, and the BBC again, Telegraph, NPR, Guardian, etc. There's even a playlist on YouTube of what they used ... Black Kite (talk) 00:06, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- I had new found respect for "Welcome to the Jungle" after watching it live from speaker trucks. Would have been funny as hell to watch the Brits SAS Squads play Monty Python or Benny Hill themes while driving around the Ecuadoran embassy for 10 years. Sad they let a rape accusation go unanswered for that long. 2600:8800:1300:A2E:0:0:0:1000 (talk) 04:30, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- I guess this would be my song suggestion. Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:29, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- Assange is being demonized by some and abandoned by others, I just think WMF should support him. Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:30, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- WMF can and must support Assange, but this has been a very long term battle and will remain so. Assange may be taking a detour to Sweden where WMF can't support him, because rape is an extremely serious allegation and WMF can't be dismissive of the complainants. The way in which they have been dismissed in the press is essentially a conspiracy theory -- even if conspiracies are extraordinarily likely where international spy powers are concerned. If he ends up in the United States, the question then is what charges exist and how unconstitutional they are. WMF will absolutely need to monitor and respond to that as part of its core mission because there is no obvious ideological boundary between Assange publishing a document he reads after a leaker sends it to him and a Wikipedian summarizing it after Wikileaks publishes it or even after the New York Times writes about it.
- In the meanwhile, Wikipedians can do a lot. There is a strong odor of rank bullshit about such movement for freedom, transparency, democracy, privacy etc. where a person would doubt it exists at all, and it would be pleasant if someone could start to make the case. I mean, if Assange were from a real movement like ISIS or Al Qaida they would have dug a tunnel and fetched him out of that embassy in a year if they had to use a spoon, or had half a dozen people blow themselves up and stormed it with machine guns. By contrast.... well, many of the newspaper articles have attributed Assange's arrest to Lenin Moreno's angry response to the INA Papers, even if Wikileaks didn't publish them, and the present investigation into the INA Papers offers a chance that the Ecuadorians will be able to push him out of office, which could be good for Ola Bini. But that is a red link, just like INA Investment Corporation. So I mean the difference between a real movement and our movement is the difference between a movement with large numbers of people willing to blow themselves up or dig a tunnel for half a mile to break someone out of jail, versus having literally not one person in the entire world who can be bothered to write up half a page about one of the major background stories that might help to 'punish' Assange's persecutor or free his ally. Also notice that the above-mentioned commitment of ISIS members still was not enough to save their movement from defeat. Basically, you look up bullshit in the dictionary and that's us, right next to the idea of computer libertarianism to uphold our right to freedom and privacy while in reality they are all conniving to sell data to the NSA and hide wearable cameras in your underwear. But if you want, please, by all means, let's get started on the INA Papers. It's the least we can do... literally. Wnt (talk) 07:07, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- ok, but I am not assuming that was the only source but that there wasn't any more unbiased source, because if there was a less biased source than the US military, why would that unbiased alternative not have been used? I guess I was wrong, obviously, about the level of media exposure of the event; I was working pretty hard in 1990. But I still have to wonder whether Assange's Wikileaks, had they existed, might have received some evidence as to exactly what the rationale for this invasion was, especially given all the history of cooperation between Noriega and Bush. Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:52, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Nope. In fact for Wikipedia to become embroiled in defending an admitted "computer hacker" who sought to violate both US and International Law, would ill-suit Wikipedia as a completely neutral recorder of facts, and present Wikipedia as an active participant in such issues. Court matters should be left to those who properly are before the courts. Collect (talk) 13:34, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- WMF has made many amicus curiae ("friend of the court") representations [8][9] and has even been a plaintiff in similar cases [10][11]. (These are not a complete list) It should most certainly continue to do so. When you pay for a commercial product, any commercial product, a significant fraction of the money you pay goes for the company's efforts to lobby, sue, threaten, and bribe officials in order to oppose the many usually nefarious forces that would ban or severely restrict their operations. Otherwise anything from natural gas to diet soda would end up illegal, because in this sorry world you only have the rights you pay for. Wikimedia may not have all the options of a private company (I don't see them out with bags full of $1000 single-use credit cards from a thousand small money donors), but they most certainly should not hesitate to use the tools they have to defend our right to use the information we can find in our research. Wnt (talk) 14:09, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry That WMF has filed court briefs in other cases does not mean that it should do so here. And I note that hyperbole from others rarely makes me change my opinion. My opinion remains as written. Collect (talk) 16:52, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- It is hard to say conclusively that the WMF should file a brief in a case for which the charges have not been filed, and hopefully never will be, and the lower court has not made the wrong decision, and hopefully never will. But it should be just as hard to say conclusively that it should not. If the push for an unconstitutional interpretation of the Espionage Act moves toward the point where the Pentagon Papers would have been illegal, where Nixon would have started his third term in office triumphally recounting the hundred-year sentences of Deep Throat (Watergate) and the reporters who collaborated with him, then certainly anyone who does not stand up that day will not matter afterward. Wnt (talk) 23:13, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- You appear to have a strongly political point of view. My opinion is that "strong political views" make ofttimes for very poor judgement. Sorry, but that is where we appear to differ. Wikipedia as a political entity would be short-lived. Collect (talk) 00:10, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- Ah, so I have a strongly political point of view, whereas you express only the neutral point of view embedded in the natural fabric of the universe as You created it. WMF's propensity to file court briefs on behalf of the right of people to compile online encyclopedias was clearly an aberration from their True Future Policy, for which Your revelations are the needed corrective measure. Yeah, right. I may be guilty of a bit of the same thinking myself, but at least I wasn't personally the one who first said that men are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, or put freedom of expression first on the (more specific) list. Wnt (talk) 11:03, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- You appear to have a strongly political point of view. My opinion is that "strong political views" make ofttimes for very poor judgement. Sorry, but that is where we appear to differ. Wikipedia as a political entity would be short-lived. Collect (talk) 00:10, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- It is hard to say conclusively that the WMF should file a brief in a case for which the charges have not been filed, and hopefully never will be, and the lower court has not made the wrong decision, and hopefully never will. But it should be just as hard to say conclusively that it should not. If the push for an unconstitutional interpretation of the Espionage Act moves toward the point where the Pentagon Papers would have been illegal, where Nixon would have started his third term in office triumphally recounting the hundred-year sentences of Deep Throat (Watergate) and the reporters who collaborated with him, then certainly anyone who does not stand up that day will not matter afterward. Wnt (talk) 23:13, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry That WMF has filed court briefs in other cases does not mean that it should do so here. And I note that hyperbole from others rarely makes me change my opinion. My opinion remains as written. Collect (talk) 16:52, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- If hacking, violations of US laws etc. was necessary to get to what is now considered to be reliable information on certain topics that would never have been uncovered in a legal way, then that implies that news from conventional sources about such topics is in general not all that reliable. Therefore Wikipedia should take note of such potential unreliability. Count Iblis (talk) 18:36, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia & Assange vs. Propaganda & Brainwashing
Daniel Ellsberg sees Assange arrest as the beginning of the end for press freedom. Jimbo, as we look at the wide assortment of whistleblowing facts provided by Assange we must admit that he has helped provide a lot of good content for Wikipedia. However, in his role as whistleblowing facilitator, I think he has provided the much more important function of thrusting reality into mainstream discussion within societies where continual governmental propaganda, to the point of brainwashing, is prevalent. This congressional entry is one example of Assange releasing historically defining information (according to the Congressman) which main stream media never had access to and which directly contradicts all of the propaganda which provided justification for American intervention in the Gulf War. In addition, many reliable media have been able to report events, such as July 12, 2007, Baghdad airstrike, which led to important Wikipedia articles. That particular event was shocking to many who had been brainwashed into believing that only our enemies, and not ourselves, are out there committing war crimes with abandon. I believe that brainwashing is the ultimate enemy of unbiased knowledge and education, both of which I think are integral objectives of Wikipedia's mission, and that all brainwashing, whether it be from N.Korea or wherever, can be so pervasive that its victims do not even know they have been/are brainwashed and that it takes a shocking revelation, such as the Pentagon Papers, to get some people to wake up to reality. I myself grew up in a totally brainwashed society and did not realize it. I proudly recited every day in school from age 5 the Pledge of Allegiance which ends with "liberty and justice for all". This was in 1951, in Georgia, where half my city's population were segregated from many liberties and much justice. Many adult black men referred to me as "master", when I was still a young boy, but I was so brainwashed, I still believed the words of my daily pledge. Then one day I saw another Julian Assange type rabble rouser on T.V.. A man who also had been thrown in jail for arcane crimes like "inciting a riot" and "disobeying a police officer", in his case, arrested 39 times. Back then, just like today, most people accepted the government propaganda that the target was just a low life criminal with sexual perversions. But when I heard King speak, I realized that when I had been saying "liberty and justice for all", I had, myself, become a part of the ongoing propaganda machine. I say ongoing because in 2019 a poor man in America can stay in jail waiting for a trial (or for the Prosecutor to decide not to prosecute) years longer than a rich man, just because he can't come up with the bail money. And the kids are still saying "liberty and justice for all". So, maybe one day there will be an international holiday for Assange, just as there is a national holiday for MLK, when the government's spin is in line with reality. But the important support for a good cause or movement doesn't come 30 years after its needed, the important support comes at the time its needed, when the opposition is a big fat government with lots of money and even more power. Nocturnalnow (talk) 19:28, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Nocturnalnow: how do you feel about [12] and [13]? EllenCT (talk) 04:54, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
- I haven't read the Mueller report. The widely reported portion "While this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him," Mueller wrote in his report causes me to be pessimistic as I see that portion as providing zero information and being either a sophomoric pretence at saying something important while not saying anything at all, or worse, knowingly ginning up more confusion. Either way, that portion, at least for me, is like a trailer for a teenage scream movie, which is something I am not interested in.
- As far as those two articles, I just glanced at them and see in the Daily Beast that Mueller's report references media reports that originated with Breitbart, which is so unreliable we have it on a linkage blacklist:"According to media reports, Assange told a U.S. congressman that the DNC hack was an ‘inside job,’ and purported to have ‘physical proof’ that Russians did not give materials to Assange.” and in The Guardian; "It also says Mueller’s office 'cannot rule out that stolen documents were transferred to WikiLeaks'", which also portrays a useless report; e.g. I can not rule out that there was a zebra on the Brooklyn Bridge sometime last week.
- Just to stick with my analogy, I see that in 1966 a Gallup poll showed 63% of Americans had an unfavorable opinion of MLK with only 33% favorable, whereas by 2011 it was 94% favorable. Nocturnalnow (talk) 05:35, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
- 'Propaganda' applies here at a very individual level. Basically, the report said that Trump would have obstructed justice if he could obstruct justice but according to the DOJ he can't by definition so he didn't. Barr put a lovely spin in that in an announcement in advance of the report's release, and now that's the only "truth" people know. See [14]. Wnt (talk) 09:25, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
- How about this, then, Nocturalnow? Straight from the horse's mouth. Bitter Oil (talk) 16:36, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
I made a mistake trying to manually access your userpage on the URL by forgetting to add the _. Since I might not be the only one to do accidently do this, should User:JimmyWales redirect to your userpage? Clovermoss (talk) 02:24, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- Probably?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:28, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- Done Dusti*Let's talk!* 01:33, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
- Dusti, I agree with doing that but shouldn't the Account probably be registered to prevent abuse & impersonation. RhinosF1(chat)(status)(contribs) 09:55, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- @RhinosF1: That would be up to Jimbo to do, IMO Dusti*Let's talk!* 16:39, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- Dusti, Probably is. @Jimbo Wales: do you intend to? RhinosF1(chat)(status)(contribs) 16:53, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- Jimbo Wales, I know you're probably busy and this page gets tons of edits, must be easy to loose track but any update on registering that account under WP:SOCKLEGIT to prevent impersonation. RhinosF1(chat)(status)(contribs) 21:29, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
- Dusti, Probably is. @Jimbo Wales: do you intend to? RhinosF1(chat)(status)(contribs) 16:53, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- @RhinosF1: That would be up to Jimbo to do, IMO Dusti*Let's talk!* 16:39, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- Dusti, I agree with doing that but shouldn't the Account probably be registered to prevent abuse & impersonation. RhinosF1(chat)(status)(contribs) 09:55, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- Done Dusti*Let's talk!* 01:33, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
Cutting to the Chase
Jimmy - you've been named by an anon as a future TV personality [15]. Any comment? Smallbones(smalltalk) 00:25, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
- Good revert. I've definitely not been asked to do that. It sounds more fun than most, I'll admit.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:27, 23 April 2019 (UTC)
- I predict someone will make an asynchronous web version. EllenCT (talk) 05:29, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
Jimmy, are you being Orwellian again?
RT - far from my favorite source reports that:
"The Orwellian browser plugin NewsGuard, which purports to judge the trustworthiness of media outlets, has appointed Wikipedia’s founder to its board, proving that even neoliberal thought police have a sense of humor."
Any comment? It probably won't make The Signpost since there is no reliable source, but I've always wondered how people react after being called "Orwellian" and "neoliberal thought police". Smallbones(smalltalk) 14:25, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
- We have a reliable source[16], and a Wikipedia article on NewsGuard. He'll be accompanied by a "Prime Minster",[17] which implies strongly that the plugin does not also verify spelling. --GRuban (talk) 18:39, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
- Geez, this looks almost too good to be true. Will it replace WP:RSN? Seriously, can it rate all the semi- or completely-phony sources used in all the business ads we get submitted as articles? Should we include it in WP:N?
- I'd suggest asking them to give it away for free to all Wikipedia editors, but it looks like they already do it. Just install it into your browser (I'm always a bit leery of this). Has anybody tried this with Wikipedia? Can you just go to the reference section of a cryptocurrency article and just point to the links and separate the wheat from the chaff? Smallbones(smalltalk) 19:37, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
- I've been using the plugin for a while - it's good. Perhaps this rating of rt.com explains their animosity. Some may find this video by the author of this RT piece to be informative as to the quality of the analysis. I'm being polite.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:15, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think its cool that you're taking this on. One helluva challenge. Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:26, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
- I wonder if any independent reviews have been done to assess the success of the Russian efforts to build "one of the world's biggest interactive, free-access, constantly updated compendiums of general knowledge" that "will be like Wikipedia, only much better." Зенитная Самоходная Установка (talk) 00:03, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- The real test is whether the Duma allows it to have an article on bongs. 107.242.121.3 (talk) 01:08, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- I wonder if any independent reviews have been done to assess the success of the Russian efforts to build "one of the world's biggest interactive, free-access, constantly updated compendiums of general knowledge" that "will be like Wikipedia, only much better." Зенитная Самоходная Установка (talk) 00:03, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think its cool that you're taking this on. One helluva challenge. Nocturnalnow (talk) 23:26, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
- Just wow. So often people mock the "slippery slope" argument. But in two decades I have watched as Britain sunk from an initial apparent 'feel-good' campaign of British providers trying to block access to child porn, to having BAE Aerospace making black boxes to watch everything their subjects download, to having people deathly afraid to view 'extremist' ideas, to (now) having to formally register their willingness to look at unapproved news with a system that doubtless will note the disloyalty for future generations. There is not one speck of exaggeration in 'slippery slope' arguments!
- While I would ordinarily consider the idea that links to the Russian or Iranian government could make media suspicious, the quality of reporting I am seeing now from the "free press" is so low that I can give no credence to the claim that such censorware would exclude 'unreliable' sources. If you wanted to see, for example, that there was a petition[18] to free Ola Bini, who was arrested at the same time as Julian Assange, by some appearances for his work on software (Off-the-Record Messaging) to allow private communication that might include, say, a conversation that turned out to be to the detriment of a professional political traitor ... well, you would have two choices. Either you can read his girlfriend's Twitter feed, or from one of the fairly large number of organizations that signed on to it, you can read Sputnik News.[19] You're not going to find it in a reliable news source, at least not one indexed by newslookup.com or news.google.com. (Well, OK, there's NewsClick from India,[20] but I bet the censorware would make them disappear too) What does that tell you? Wnt (talk) 04:37, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Re: "There is not one speck of exaggeration in 'slippery slope' arguments!" That is incorrect.
- Slippery slope arguments falsely assume that one thing must lead to another. They begin by suggesting that if we do one thing then that will lead to another, and before we know it we’ll be doing something that we don’t want to do. They conclude that we therefore shouldn’t do the first thing.
- The fact that the predicted bad outcome happens in one case doesn't prove that slippery slope arguments are valid. "They told me that if I voted for Goldwater, we'd be at war in Vietnam within a year. Sure enough, I voted for Goldwater and now a year later we're at war in Vietnam".
- Sometimes there actually is a slippery slope, but in all such cases there is evidence supporting each of the causal links between the first thing and the last. "If you throw that lit cigarette out your can window into that that dry grass, it will start a wildfire". "As a recovering alcoholic, I know from experience that if I take a single drink I will end up passed out in the gutter".
- And sometimes the slippery slope argument is bullshit. "If we allow gays to marry, we will end up allowing people to marry their dogs". "Smoking marijuana inevitably leads to crystal meth addiction". "If we outlaw pipe bombs, one day the jackbooted thugs will take away our butter knives".
- The problem with most such arguments is that it is usually possible to do the first thing that they mention without going on to do the other things. The way to present a valid slippery slope argument is to provide a good argument for each step being inevitable. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:43, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
Some of this is getting too aggressive to be productive --Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:22, 27 April 2019 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- What has happened is that our whole model of crime control has shifted toward incapacitation, which involves feeding as much data as possible into a computer and having it determine people's likelihood of committing crimes, so they can be subjected to the amount and kind of monitoring and restriction needed to adequately mitigate those risks. This is a departure from the old models of retribution (where you would be punished for crime you'd already committed) or rehabilitation (where the goal was to turn the bad into good).
- The question arises, what are acceptable levels of crime risk, and what are acceptable costs of getting the risk down to that level? This is one of the oldest questions. The Fourth Amendment is one of the most-litigated passages of the U.S. Constitution because it's all about the balance between solving crimes by rifling through people's homes for evidence, and leaving people free from having their homes arbitrarily rifled through. We could probably find quite a lot of illegal drugs, guns, porn, etc. if we rifled through everyone's homes.
- Machine learning has reached a point where it can predict with nearly 50 percent or 84 percent accuracy whether you're going to try to kill yourself. Why stop there, though; why not also take a look at your Internet browsing habits and see whether the stuff you're saying and doing online is correlated with a risk of committing various crimes? It would be so easy, with the cooperation of the Internet companies, to just feed all that data into an algorithm and see what conclusions it might reach.
- Maybe at some point, these crime prediction methods will become reliable enough that courts will deem the algorithms' results clear and convincing evidence to support an involuntary commitment. Perhaps your unpopular opinions hinder your integration to society (aka "cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty"); that could be the basis of a mental illness diagnosis. Of course, if they can catch you spitting on the sidewalk, that gives them even more of an excuse to look at your history and characteristics and make an argument based on those risk factors that you need to be locked up for the protection of the public.
- We already see that in the family and criminal courts, legal battles are not so much about dueling lawyers anymore, as dueling psychologists arguing about the likelihood that the defendant will do something harmful, dangerous, or criminal in the future, based on what's known about him and about what he's said and done in the past, and what the algorithms that the academics have devised say that implies about his risk level. Look at, for instance, the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory; what is it, but several hundred questions, many of them seemingly innocuous, that researchers say can be used to support accurate mental illness diagnoses? Зенитная Самоходная Установка (talk) 05:14, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- Just to clarify my own view here, in case anyone is wondering, although most of you know me well enough to have a really good idea what I might think: I think that independent journalistic tools with a transparent process that allows readers of news sites to get clear information about the quality standards and practices of news sites is a great idea. And I think that partnering with ISPs to offer the tool to users is a great idea. I don't think anything about any of that raises any questions of 'censorship' so, even after review, I don't really grasp how the conversation got onto that. I would oppose using any such ratings to actually have mandatory blocking of sites of low quality. Indeed, I think that a good way to prevent legislative or public policy calls for "banning fake news sites" (a very dangerous precedent that I do think would raise questions about 'slippery slopes') is to have voluntary efforts to sideline them now.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:22, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- What deeply alarmed me about the Guardian story was this section:
Its co-founders Steve Brill and Gordon Crovitz told the Guardian they were in talks with major British broadband providers to build NewsGuard into their services. Under this plan individuals attempting to access a news site deemed to be untrustworthy by the company would be met with a warning page served by their internet service provider, with customers able to turn the setting on or off in a similar manner to blocks on pornography websites.
- Note that this is not a voluntary measure taken by some user deathly afraid of reading a bogus news story. This is something imposed by internet providers, who may provide a loophole, which may not impose worrisome terms and conditions, or give lurid warnings about the dangers of inadvertently reading extremist material. Meanwhile, the fact that someone made the decision to view the not-quite-banned material will inevitably be logged, and it seems like a reasonable concern for them to be afraid it will be used against them. It is already recognized that Britain has a climate of fear in which people are at risk because of "not criminal" behavior. There is a great deal of Internet censorship in the United Kingdom (which notes that the monitoring cannot be opted out of, even if a not-banned item is viewed) and specifically it is unsafe to do online research according to formal policy advice to students! So if a reader of Arab descent were to bypass the filter and happen onto a PressTV story (and there are many online), will he be charged with accessing 'extremist' viewpoints, or even with supporting terrorism, given the ever-expanding definition of the offense? To me this looks unequivocally to have moved beyond a "tool" and squarely into the column of censorship imposed on the would-be reader. Which would not be inconsistent with reports that the UK is proposing systematic open-ended censorship criminalizing internet providers that fail to deny access to "disinformation", among other things. [21] Wnt (talk) 21:12, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have the exact same concerns in general, but I've also come to the opinion that what the world needs now is more involvement by smart and reasonably objective people of good will in every aspect of society, especially those aspects which are the most challenging and even worrisome. If more of us Wikipedians get involved in administrative aspects of our societies we'd all be better off...so I like the fact that Jimbo is and has been leading the way in that regard, and I really, really hope its motivating to our younger generations who really need to get off their asses. Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:40, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I think this is beneath Jimmy Wales. He founded the flagship of free culture, the living demonstration that people can be allowed to speak with one another and work together to make a better product than all the corporations that tried to do the same thing. And it looks like our Commodore has come back with a Kapo uniform, telling us we have to voluntarily cooperate 'to prevent legislative or public policy calls for "banning fake news sites"'. Is the currency of free speech really that weak nowadays? Did we really build the whole Internet just to hand it over to a few cash-hungry privacy-violating corporations to put under their domination provided they act as the satraps of oppressive writers of Snoopers' Charters? When was this war we are supposed to have lost? Why didn't we use nukes, like our ancestors would have to prevent Russians from violating their fundamental freedoms? Jimmy Wales' name is worth more than all those British government creeps and whatever goodwill can be got by doing what they want, which I bet is less than nil anyway. Wnt (talk) 01:28, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- I think I'd be better informed about your views if you spoke in a less poetic way. What, precisely, are you recommending that I do here?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:50, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, since you already are in this position, I'm thinking the best approach for now may be to use it productively for a certain length of time. At first glance, I would think:
- Oppose server-side ratings and stick with plug-ins only. If you can't do that, then make server-side ratings opt-in rather than opt-out. If you can't do that, say opting out should be easy and without signing any new statement about terms and conditions.
- The main page for the app says "(Note: We do not collect any personal data of any kind from those using our extension.)" Find out from the inside if that is really true -- too often a statement like that means that a company has detailed records with your IP address and the serial number for your hard drive, but that's not "personal" until you get hauled into court over it.
- The company should not end up holding its own records of which sites and stories the users read (though I know there are already a lot of copies of those anyway); more importantly, it must not be allowed to generate personal data by recording or inferring when users opted to click through to a low-rated page.
- Bias in the company's ratings needs to be addressed at the individual level. Notably, consider the ratings scheme versus the results for Wikileaks. As vigorously protested by its operators, [22] the site has never had to retract a false story, yet it gets a red X for failing to correct misinformation, which suggests an unfair rating. I would say that they also must be unfairly down-rated, at least, where "treating the difference between news and opinion responsibly" is concerned.
- Systemic bias in ratings should also be addressed. (I don't run the app so I may be missing something, and I haven't seen specific numbers on the ratings, so I'm making inferences here) The Newsguard criteria appear poised to favor commercial "mainstream" sites -- Wikileaks as an example, getting an "N/A" for labeling advertising because they don't have advertising, while any green-rated site (Fox News) for example) presumably gets an 11% boost to its rating as long as they do this simple, easy thing that they are often legally required to do anyway. The criteria on author biographies and site ownership are also likely in that category as I assume it is interpreted (saying that a corporate site is owned by stockholders would presumably be enough, yet who are those stockholders and what are their interests? What other interests do their CEOs have and what side deals do they make?)
- Ask the site to act in such a way that it would deserve a 100% rating.
- When the company's actions (e.g. server side abuses) or your observation merits it, you have the option of a high-profile resignation, especially if others do it at the same time. I don't think this position is worthy of you for the long term. Wnt (talk) 12:15, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- A response to the above by the original poster of this thread was reverted by User:Winged Blades of Godric using rollback. I don't know why. He cited a MintPress News story [23] and a Twitter posting (which was their source) which boils down to this post by R.Hill displaying a picture which appears to show the app making a connection (for example) to https://api.newsguardtech.com/check/wikileaks.org when the user wanted to browse Wikileaks. This would reveal the user's interest in visiting the site, IP address, and user-agent string, though I don't see a statement there that the site would know whether he chose to visit. I do know that Wikipedia has relied on the idea that the choice of URL to visit within a site is now supposed to be encrypted, so that the NSA would not directly have a plaintext record of the request in transit, though it would be considered "envelope information" (e.g.) not subject to warrant and I don't feel optimistic it would be truly secure against them either in transit or at the far end. Obviously a server-side installation of Newsguard would be impossible to informally audit in this fashion. MintPressNews had previously editorialized against the app, and the makeup of the board (Tom Ridge) played prominently in that. [24] There are, of course, no neutral news outlets regarding this topic because they all have a direct financial interest one way or the other, but this is a starting point for research. Wnt (talk) 23:07, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- Well, since you already are in this position, I'm thinking the best approach for now may be to use it productively for a certain length of time. At first glance, I would think:
- I think I'd be better informed about your views if you spoke in a less poetic way. What, precisely, are you recommending that I do here?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:50, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I think this is beneath Jimmy Wales. He founded the flagship of free culture, the living demonstration that people can be allowed to speak with one another and work together to make a better product than all the corporations that tried to do the same thing. And it looks like our Commodore has come back with a Kapo uniform, telling us we have to voluntarily cooperate 'to prevent legislative or public policy calls for "banning fake news sites"'. Is the currency of free speech really that weak nowadays? Did we really build the whole Internet just to hand it over to a few cash-hungry privacy-violating corporations to put under their domination provided they act as the satraps of oppressive writers of Snoopers' Charters? When was this war we are supposed to have lost? Why didn't we use nukes, like our ancestors would have to prevent Russians from violating their fundamental freedoms? Jimmy Wales' name is worth more than all those British government creeps and whatever goodwill can be got by doing what they want, which I bet is less than nil anyway. Wnt (talk) 01:28, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have the exact same concerns in general, but I've also come to the opinion that what the world needs now is more involvement by smart and reasonably objective people of good will in every aspect of society, especially those aspects which are the most challenging and even worrisome. If more of us Wikipedians get involved in administrative aspects of our societies we'd all be better off...so I like the fact that Jimbo is and has been leading the way in that regard, and I really, really hope its motivating to our younger generations who really need to get off their asses. Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:40, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- What deeply alarmed me about the Guardian story was this section:
- I think I've said it before here, the core of the problem is lack of education. The general public knows a lot more about how the legal system functions compared to how one obtains solid results in science. If someone's conviction is upheld on appeal then the general public knows that this implies that there have been many independent reviews of the facts of the case and the conclusion that the defendant is guilty is quite solid. People can still have doubts, but that requires a lot of explanation why that may be the case, people will be extremely skeptical about any such claims.
- But if we consider some solid scientific result that has been reproduced independently many times and there are a large number of secondary review articles, then because the public doesn't know how science works in practice, people can be easily be made to believe that the solid scientific result is flawed. And while in a legal case people who doubt the outcome would ultimately still want the legal system to resolve the case, in case of the scientific result, the people who doubt it tend to take the argument why it is flawed on some blog or social media platform as an official debunking.
- This is then why anti-vaxxers, climate skeptics etc. have such a big impact. The news media cannot deal with this problem all that well, because trying to correct for the problem would mean editorializing the news and it would make the news media look like being biased to people who are inclined to believe the junk science stories. Count Iblis (talk) 11:46, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
Documentation of funding
Hey, long-time reader in Miami-Dade here. its been some time since the December 2014 collection of $500,000 in funds from the United Arab Emirates, which you pledged to the Jimmy Wales Foundation. And its also been some time since the mid-2017 collection of €385,000 from the Google DNI, another $50,000 from ESV, plus the undocumented sums of small donations made by over 10,000 small supporters, plus who knows how much matched by Craig Newmark's pledge of $100,000, all of these sources were to be in support of WikiTribune.
If we look to see how that money has been allocated (that means "spent"), there is no public declaration of how Jimmy Wales Foundation spends its money, or if even the $500,000 UAE prize was donated to it. And the 08 January 2019 filing of an unaudited report "FOR THE PERIOD ENDED 30 APRIL 2018" at WikiTribune seems to show net liability of £110,527, with no obvious sign of the (cash positive) grant money from Google, or the pledge from ESV, or any of the donations received from the thousands of small donors, or the matching pledge from Newmark. Since you laid off nearly all of the reporters at WikiTribune, I'm wondering where is the account of how much they cost before being let go, so that we can see how much longer WikiTribune can operate with mostly a volunteer force of editors.
Are you able to clearly announce here how much of the $500,000 prize from the UAE has been spent thus far, and how much of that was toward earnest human rights activity, versus how much was paid presumably to Orit Kopel and/or to Jimmy Wales as "expenses" or salary? And similarly, are you able to clearly announce here how much of the (at least) $600,000 that funded WikiTribune was spent on reporter staff and on website development, and how much was presumably paid to Orit Kopel and/or to Jimmy Wales as "expenses" or salary? Or, do you keep these expenditure numbers private? In my opinion, the people who donated to at least the latter project have some right to hear publicly about how their money was being spent, but I respect if you hold on to a different viewpoint. - 170.55.36.237 (talk) 20:31, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
- You seem to be conflating two very different things here - my work around freedom of expression centered on the Jimmy Wales Foundation and my work on the WikiTribune pilot project. Let's discuss them separately. But before we do, I'd like some reassurance that this is a conversation being held in good faith, because much of what you write seems to be aggressive for no reason. Let me point out just one example: Orit Kopel's salary for the Jimmy Wales foundation has been money spend on human rights - she's a human rights lawyer. As for me, I take zero salary from either organization, and zero personal expenses. Indeed, with WikiTribune the loss reported in our public filing has been covered by me personally and represents almost entirely spending on developers and journalists with minimal amounts for servers, hardware (laptops for journalists), office rent, etc.
- As to the potential longevity for WikiTribune - we aren't going anywhere. I continue to invest my personal money into the project and have no plans to stop in the near future. We are rolling out some major experimental software changes soon. It's a startup, it's a pilot project, and I expect that we will continue to experiment with different approaches as we learn.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:03, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, all in good faith. It sounds like there is no plan or obligation to publicly declare the financial outlays of the Jimmy Wales Foundation, which is totally fine. Simple and seperate questions, then.. .. .. Which victims of human rights has the human rights lawyer legally represented on behalf of the Jimmy Wales Foundation, and how much did their counsel cost? And (seperately), according to public announcements by WikiTribune it appears that there should be at least £460,000 in revenue shortly after the launch of the project but the only public filing shows a loss of £110,527, with no significant line-items to document the much larger offsetting revenues. Why haven't the revenues been publicly documented in a way that makes the balance sheet look more balanced? maybe I just don't understand UK financial reports e.g. what is "THE PERIOD" duration in a report "FOR THE PERIOD ENDING 30 APRIL 2018"? you re not needed to respond if some reader here knows the answers. - 170.55.36.237 (talk) 11:19, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
Clarice E. Phelps
What do you think, Jimmy Wales? How about, in instances wherein the community determines that a blp subject's notability to be a borderline /"too soon" case, Wikipedia allows a draft remain, for WP's 'coverage' for that individual, pending developments as can easily be anticipated with regard the person in question? As a case in point, whereas both the Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/it-matters-who-we-champion-in-science/2019/04/12/50a1781a-5d3d-11e9-9625-01d48d50ef75_story.html and Everipedia has inaccurate information(!) within its article foe scientist Clarice Phelps (saying she co-discovered tennessine; hat tip-->[25]), WPdian-in-residence @ the NYPublicLibraryforthePerformingArts user:DGG believes her notable, due I believe an award she's received and stuff within her community for which she'd received coverage. Without space being in place at Draft:Clarice E. Phelps, how can information most practically accrete regarding this scientist? Any thoughts?--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 21:17, 28 April 2019 (UTC)--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 03:12, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
- WaPo is an oped, with one of the authors of the oped being the author of the Wikipedia article. Our article (the first version) had a number of, umm, very novel claims on Phelps - including that she is a dr. (PhD) when she holds a b.sc (per a primary source - studying as of 2019 for a m.sc). We were also claiming she was the first African American woman to discover an element - which possibly WP:CITOGENed elsewhere (though RSes, published after Wikipedia, have caged this with an "as far as we know..."). Phelps at the time tennessine was discovered was a new ORNL hire with the job title "Nuclear Operations Technician" and she was "on the team tasked with purifying the berkelium-249 used to confirm the discovery of element 117, tennessine." per ORNL. The bio on Phelps illustrated why bios should not be built of primary sources and PR. Everipedia.org reads similar to one of the versions that was on Wikipedia (after the doctorate was removed - but she still has a master's there while the cited sources do not state completion).21:38, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia blocked in mainland China
So, Wikipedia is now blocked in mainland China. Has there been any sort of announcement about this? I only happened to find out after I asked CheckUser to look at a UTRS appeal asking for an IP block exemption and Beeblebrox responded and mentioned Wikipedia being blocked. We're getting a few unblock requests at UTRS regarding this but nobody seems to know why mainland China has now blocked Wikipedia!
Just Chilling tagging you in this as I can see that you have a current UTRS appeal for this exact reason.-- 5 albert square (talk) 22:31, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- The case I have under review seems somewhat different because they are still editing regularly. There have been issues with Wikipedia being blocked in China and Turkey for some considerable time so there is nothing new in principle. The basis for dealing with IPBE requests remains as before; the applicant needs a sufficiently robust editing record to be a trusted user and there has to be a demonstrable need. The other point that I should like to make is that these situations are fluid so I normally grant IPBEs for 12 months at a time rather than indefinitely. Just Chilling (talk) 23:37, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- Not knowing which case you're looking at, it may be worth pointing out that the block began a few days ago around the 23rd. People may look like they're regularly editing, but they're now not. -- zzuuzz (talk) 23:41, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- I don't want to air specific cases on here but FWIW they state they live in mainland China but have edited 27 times today, alone! All this indicates is that we should continue to deal with applications on their individual merits. Just Chilling (talk) 23:54, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
- Administrator note Duplicate thread already ongoing at WP:AN. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:18, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
- Not knowing which case you're looking at, it may be worth pointing out that the block began a few days ago around the 23rd. People may look like they're regularly editing, but they're now not. -- zzuuzz (talk) 23:41, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
WikiWhat
Hi Jimbo, I found this mini-series on YouTube after assuming that there was an Adam Ruins Everything for Wikipedia. There wasn't, but this popped up instead. It's hosted by Josh Gondelman where they bring famous people (in this case, Adam Conover) to evaluate the page. It's not really helping but instead just partially, almost vandalizing the page (for example when Josh tells Adam if he was born in 1984 or 1985, Adam tells Josh, neither, so Josh puts (born not in 1984 or 1985). What are your thoughts Jimbo? AdrianWikiEditor (talk) 00:21, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
I'd reccomend you watch the whole video as some of the stuff he says is pretty surprising.