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::::::::: It doesn't ''matter'' whether it's in copyright or not. Commons has [[:COMMONS:COM:PCP|the precautionary principle]] such that if the copyright is ''dubious'', that media should be deleted from Commons unless it can be demonstrated that the content really is free. To quote Commons itself, ''"arguments that amount to "we can get away with it", [...] are against Commons' aims:"'' Commons has deleted thousands and thousands of images under issues like [[:COMMONS:COM:URAA|COM:URAA]], where they're very clearly PD in their country of origin but there is a suspicion of a problem in another country. If it's not absolutely clear that an image is free, then it just shouldn't be on Commons. (It should be obvious that many Commons users, and the photographer<sub>(''sic'')</sub>, hold that there's a copyright problem here.) [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 22:14, 17 February 2015 (UTC) |
::::::::: It doesn't ''matter'' whether it's in copyright or not. Commons has [[:COMMONS:COM:PCP|the precautionary principle]] such that if the copyright is ''dubious'', that media should be deleted from Commons unless it can be demonstrated that the content really is free. To quote Commons itself, ''"arguments that amount to "we can get away with it", [...] are against Commons' aims:"'' Commons has deleted thousands and thousands of images under issues like [[:COMMONS:COM:URAA|COM:URAA]], where they're very clearly PD in their country of origin but there is a suspicion of a problem in another country. If it's not absolutely clear that an image is free, then it just shouldn't be on Commons. (It should be obvious that many Commons users, and the photographer<sub>(''sic'')</sub>, hold that there's a copyright problem here.) [[User:Andy Dingley|Andy Dingley]] ([[User talk:Andy Dingley|talk]]) 22:14, 17 February 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::::::It is absolutely clear that it ''is'' public domain. However I do agree that the Wikimania stuff was just crass, bullying almost. -''[[User:Mattbuck|mattbuck]]'' <small>([[User talk:Mattbuck|Talk]])</small> 19:36, 20 February 2015 (UTC) |
::::::::::It is absolutely clear that it ''is'' public domain. However I do agree that the Wikimania stuff was just crass, bullying almost. -''[[User:Mattbuck|mattbuck]]'' <small>([[User talk:Mattbuck|Talk]])</small> 19:36, 20 February 2015 (UTC) |
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::::::::::: It is unequivocal that the original photo by the monkey is not copyrightable in the U.S.. Unfortunately, Commons is not in possession of that photo. They are in possession of Mr. Slater's modified version (cropped, photoshopped). --[[User:DHeyward|DHeyward]] ([[User talk:DHeyward|talk]]) 18:37, 21 February 2015 (UTC) |
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:Its good to see that the [[Celebes crested macaque]] uses [[:File:Macaca nigra self-portrait large.jpg]] which is at an angle and is the actual photo the monkey took, rather than the rotated and cropped version produced by the photographer. In my view any post production of the image counts as artistic work and has a much greater claim to copyright.--[[User:Salix alba|Salix alba]] ([[User talk:Salix alba|talk]]): 10:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC) |
:Its good to see that the [[Celebes crested macaque]] uses [[:File:Macaca nigra self-portrait large.jpg]] which is at an angle and is the actual photo the monkey took, rather than the rotated and cropped version produced by the photographer. In my view any post production of the image counts as artistic work and has a much greater claim to copyright.--[[User:Salix alba|Salix alba]] ([[User talk:Salix alba|talk]]): 10:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 18:37, 21 February 2015
(Manual archive list) |
Black macaque monkey reads its Wikipedia article and copies it?
Possibly, as suggested here. However, as suggested here in the "reliable" media, Wikipedia never said that the monkey owned the copyright on the image.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 16:15, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
- I'm disappointed on the decision-making ability of those at Commons who decided this man, who owned the camera, developed the film, and yes- OWNED THE PICTURES, asked them to remove it and they refused on shaky ground. How many of you involved in the discussion are actually lawyers? I'm sincerely saddened by this and would now never post any photo to Flickr or Commons or anywhere on the internet without copyright protection. I hope this man does sue and win. Someone asks for a photo of theirs to be removed, why discuss, just remove it. What reasoning that the photo absolutely must be on Wikipedia?! I'm curious how Jimbo would have !voted in the discussion and his opinion.Camelbinky (talk) 16:41, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- In short, because cases like that, where someone asserts they own the copyright of a photo/scan where they do not are extremely common, and honouring bogus copyright claims would obliterate our supply of public domain materials. Historic art owned by museums/galleries and so on is a very common case for this sort of thing, but also people who own a physical photo with expired copyright - stock image companies and the like especially. While the case is a little unusual in the specifics, the general pattern is common. As the photo itself is notable, it's tough to argue we shouldn't have a copy - nevermind that it's very dodgy for a free project to honour invalid copyright claims. WilyD 17:29, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly. There are enough cases where copyright is abused, that it is entirely reasonable for us to be aggressive in defending the public domain in cases where copyright does not apply. It's unfortunate when someone like David Slater ends up at a disadvantage as a result, but consistently defending the limitations of copyright is not nearly as morally dubious as some might like to depict it. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 19:44, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Except that copyright does apply in this case under pretty much every legal definition, Wikipedia simply decided that they would ignore it. Ironic for a so-called "free" encyclopedia, isn't it? Not to mention arrogant. Like Camelbinky, I'd really like to think that he'd sue - but I'd quite understand if he didn't. Black Kite (talk) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- The US Copyright Office decided it wasn't copyrighted, so we could go by that even if we didn't think the photographer was taking liberties with the notion of copyright. -mattbuck (Talk) 21:25, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Keep whistling in the dark. The Commons decision was ill-considered, unethical, and immature — taken up a notch by the arrogant buffoonery that happened at Wikimania in London. Lawyers are doing their thing, I understand, and we shall see... Carrite (talk) 04:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- I'm particularly sickened by the way that an admin, infamous for his hard-line approach to NFC, so harsh on it that he worked hard to hide an obvious sock of a banned user who was equally hard on NFC material, chose this image to decorate his user page.
- Not that the Lord of the Flies celebrations at Wikimania, where the children celebrated their victory over the grown-ups by dancing around their animal head totem, was much better. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:57, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- And so the response to the photo being public domain is that everyone unhappy that Wikipedia, Commons, and their communities take a fairly hard stance on copyright law comes here to sling insults? WilyD 12:10, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter whether it's in copyright or not. Commons has the precautionary principle such that if the copyright is dubious, that media should be deleted from Commons unless it can be demonstrated that the content really is free. To quote Commons itself, "arguments that amount to "we can get away with it", [...] are against Commons' aims:" Commons has deleted thousands and thousands of images under issues like COM:URAA, where they're very clearly PD in their country of origin but there is a suspicion of a problem in another country. If it's not absolutely clear that an image is free, then it just shouldn't be on Commons. (It should be obvious that many Commons users, and the photographer(sic), hold that there's a copyright problem here.) Andy Dingley (talk) 22:14, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- And so the response to the photo being public domain is that everyone unhappy that Wikipedia, Commons, and their communities take a fairly hard stance on copyright law comes here to sling insults? WilyD 12:10, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Keep whistling in the dark. The Commons decision was ill-considered, unethical, and immature — taken up a notch by the arrogant buffoonery that happened at Wikimania in London. Lawyers are doing their thing, I understand, and we shall see... Carrite (talk) 04:20, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- The US Copyright Office decided it wasn't copyrighted, so we could go by that even if we didn't think the photographer was taking liberties with the notion of copyright. -mattbuck (Talk) 21:25, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Except that copyright does apply in this case under pretty much every legal definition, Wikipedia simply decided that they would ignore it. Ironic for a so-called "free" encyclopedia, isn't it? Not to mention arrogant. Like Camelbinky, I'd really like to think that he'd sue - but I'd quite understand if he didn't. Black Kite (talk) 19:50, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Exactly. There are enough cases where copyright is abused, that it is entirely reasonable for us to be aggressive in defending the public domain in cases where copyright does not apply. It's unfortunate when someone like David Slater ends up at a disadvantage as a result, but consistently defending the limitations of copyright is not nearly as morally dubious as some might like to depict it. {{Nihiltres|talk|edits}} 19:44, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- In short, because cases like that, where someone asserts they own the copyright of a photo/scan where they do not are extremely common, and honouring bogus copyright claims would obliterate our supply of public domain materials. Historic art owned by museums/galleries and so on is a very common case for this sort of thing, but also people who own a physical photo with expired copyright - stock image companies and the like especially. While the case is a little unusual in the specifics, the general pattern is common. As the photo itself is notable, it's tough to argue we shouldn't have a copy - nevermind that it's very dodgy for a free project to honour invalid copyright claims. WilyD 17:29, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- Its good to see that the Celebes crested macaque uses File:Macaca nigra self-portrait large.jpg which is at an angle and is the actual photo the monkey took, rather than the rotated and cropped version produced by the photographer. In my view any post production of the image counts as artistic work and has a much greater claim to copyright.--Salix alba (talk): 10:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- The editorial and ethical question of what commons should have done is an interesting one which could be pursued separately. There is a complex and interesting set of cases in which, although the law is firmly on our side, we may choose to remove something for a variety of reasons. I won't offer an opinion at the present time about this particular case.
- What I will do is respond to Camelbinky's assertion that there is for some reason "shaky grounds" here from a legal perspective. There is no "shaky ground" here - this is an open and shut obvious case. I'm surprised that an experienced Wikipedian would not know that "owning the camera" and "developing the film" have zero bearing on copyright. I hope this case doesn't go to court, because I feel sorry for the photographer for making an outrageous and laughable legal claim and wouldn't like to see him waste his money on a frivolous court case.
- That's the only part I'm responding to, because I do think the legal situation is not the right route to a proper resolution of this case. The image is absolutely in the public domain, and that's that. Whether there are human dignity and courtesy reasons that it should have been deleted upon request is a very very valid question.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:26, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Camera ownership and image development aren't really the grounds of the argument to be made. Rather, whether setting up gear and causing creation of an image is sufficient or whether one must physically click the shutter. That's a matter which is very, very unclear. Carrite (talk) 17:37, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- That's not unclear at all. According to Wikimedia's legal counsel (private email in a different matter): Who clicks the shutter is irrelevant. The person 'directing the shot of the image' is the copyright holder. The only remaining question is whether leaving a camera with a monkey can amount to 'directing'. --Pgallert (talk) 20:59, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Since we're being armchair lawyers, I'll put forth my theory, which I admit may not hold water, but is fun to theorize anyways. This is all a good back and forth amongst us all. My theory is that if you set up the camera, leaving it with an animal with the intent that the animal will take pictures, it is your rights; and I admit I worded wrongly which Jimbo pointed out it doesnt matter if he owned the camera or developed the film, however I believe those two things SHOULD indeed be taken into consideration. Just as in criminal law you have mens rea, which is the fact that you have to have the intent to commit a criminal act for it to be a criminal act (for certain crimes) or else you are not guilty of the crime; so should it be considered that this man had the intent that the animal should take the photos FOR HIS USE. The animal didnt steal the camera take some photos and the man figured he'd never get the camera back, as sometimes happens to tourists in places like Cambodia with similar primates (monkeys? Do macaquese have tails or not?!). As Jimbo stated though, it's a moral issue, not necessarily a legal issue. In my opinion the people on Commons should have considered more than "the law is on our side we have to protect the bigger picture of copyright law and how we want it interpretted".
- If the photographer had left a hand grenade instead of a camera, would they be considered as guilty of culpable monkeycide?
- IMHO they would have been, and the two situations are analogous. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:07, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
- Since we're being armchair lawyers, I'll put forth my theory, which I admit may not hold water, but is fun to theorize anyways. This is all a good back and forth amongst us all. My theory is that if you set up the camera, leaving it with an animal with the intent that the animal will take pictures, it is your rights; and I admit I worded wrongly which Jimbo pointed out it doesnt matter if he owned the camera or developed the film, however I believe those two things SHOULD indeed be taken into consideration. Just as in criminal law you have mens rea, which is the fact that you have to have the intent to commit a criminal act for it to be a criminal act (for certain crimes) or else you are not guilty of the crime; so should it be considered that this man had the intent that the animal should take the photos FOR HIS USE. The animal didnt steal the camera take some photos and the man figured he'd never get the camera back, as sometimes happens to tourists in places like Cambodia with similar primates (monkeys? Do macaquese have tails or not?!). As Jimbo stated though, it's a moral issue, not necessarily a legal issue. In my opinion the people on Commons should have considered more than "the law is on our side we have to protect the bigger picture of copyright law and how we want it interpretted".
- That's not unclear at all. According to Wikimedia's legal counsel (private email in a different matter): Who clicks the shutter is irrelevant. The person 'directing the shot of the image' is the copyright holder. The only remaining question is whether leaving a camera with a monkey can amount to 'directing'. --Pgallert (talk) 20:59, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Camera ownership and image development aren't really the grounds of the argument to be made. Rather, whether setting up gear and causing creation of an image is sufficient or whether one must physically click the shutter. That's a matter which is very, very unclear. Carrite (talk) 17:37, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm; this is an area where I rarely see WMF and some people in Commons in same bench. They may right in legal grounds; but I don't think such celebration and humiliating a fellow photographer among us is justifiable in any point of views. Jee 12:50, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Look at this one, with the "personality rights" warning on it, because we wouldn't want to infringe the personal rights of a WMUK staffer with whole categories of content dedicated to them. Rip the copyright for a commercially valuable image from the photographer though, that's just fair game. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Personality rights is a standard template where people are identifiable. It's a warning to potential reusers that they should be aware there may be issues arising from using identifiable people in a way which suggests they, for instance, endorse your product or political view. It doesn't matter how many photos someone has of them, whether they be Joe from down the street or Brad Pitt, the issues remain the same. -mattbuck (Talk) 20:23, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Look at this one, with the "personality rights" warning on it, because we wouldn't want to infringe the personal rights of a WMUK staffer with whole categories of content dedicated to them. Rip the copyright for a commercially valuable image from the photographer though, that's just fair game. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- I agree the WMF aren't on 'shakey ground' here they are treading quicksand. All photographs taken by camera traps are copyrightable to the photographer that set them up, it matters not how the shutter was triggered. Trip wire, movement detection, or infrared sensor, why would animal pressing button be any different? What we have here is a 1000lb gorilla in the shape of a WMF Fagin, employing its Artful Dodgers on Commons to rob and steal. Its a shame the you Jimmy are taking the Bill Sykes character. John lilburne (talk) 23:03, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
So if I set up a motion acivated camera at my remote cabin, and get a picture of bear and a burgler, who owns the copyright to those pictures? Nyth63 15:45, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- According to Pgallert's description of the WMF email, you would have "directed the shot" in that instance, I think. But the main moral here is that somebody has to stand up for the commons. I understand that under our flawed economic system, photographers feel compelled to pursue their fiduciary interests to the letter of the law, whether they make sense or not. (Just ask the people who find out their wedding photos are copyrighted and it's a violation to post them to social media) What will be left to the commons if people say let's back off, "just to be nice", we'll let people take our inventory away and make it unavailable to the whole world? Wnt (talk) 19:32, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- User:Wnt, I have a tangentially related question- I'm in discussions with an artist to do a commission work for me, he's well known enough he's mentioned in at least 6 of our articles though lacks an article of himself. Since I paid to have it commissioned would the copyright go to me and I could give permission for it to be used in Wikipedia? If the answer is yes to that, could not the argument be made this man "paid" the monkey to do the work for him?Camelbinky (talk) 19:45, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Well, the theory there is that there's some sort of handover of copyright going on. I'm not a copyright lawyer (nor any other flavor) and I doubt I will make any more sense out of work for hire than you can (especially since it's my stated position copyright doesn't make sense, and it's totally arbitrary and unpredictable who turns out to be the fabulously wealthy founder of a Google or YouTube and who turns out to be a criminal responsible for Napster or Aereo). All I know is you're free to make your best case, and unless the artist is sure he can't, he's likely to make his also. Wnt (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- User:Wnt, I have a tangentially related question- I'm in discussions with an artist to do a commission work for me, he's well known enough he's mentioned in at least 6 of our articles though lacks an article of himself. Since I paid to have it commissioned would the copyright go to me and I could give permission for it to be used in Wikipedia? If the answer is yes to that, could not the argument be made this man "paid" the monkey to do the work for him?Camelbinky (talk) 19:45, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
It is perfectly obvious that this photo should have been deleted from Commons upon the request received, and it is my view that this should be done now as an Office action, if necessary.
The communities on both English Wikipedia and Commons spend, in my personal view, far too much time debating the fine points of, and deleting useful content based upon, ever-more-abstruse, purely notional copyright claims where there is at most a vanishingly small chance that any copyright-owner would actually assert the claim. By contrast, we are far too indifferent to the wishes and rights of persons who own or at least arguably own intellectual property rights and are actually asserting them. This manner of proceeding cannot reasonably be justified. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:42, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- I'll agree with you in the first part - some of the claims of architecture copyright on random street scenes there are beyond ridiculous. But not the other. Wnt (talk) 21:03, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Newyorkbrad nails it. The way Mr. Slater has been "rewarded" for the time and effort he spent producing those beautiful photos has been nothing short of reprehensible. Here and on Commons he's been mocked, insulted, and accused of "copyfraud" for asserting the right to profit from what would not exist had he not spent the time and effort to set it up. Even if you think copyright law entitles you to use the images he produced without his permission or consent, it doesn't entitle you to treat him with such mockery as I've seen here and on Commons. And I dare say that those who think it's OK to appropriate his work because they think his claims are "outrageous and laughable" may be in for a nasty surprise should this ever wind up in court. Delete the images and apologize to Mr. Slater for the abuse he's received. 28bytes (talk) 22:34, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Slater might have copyright on any post-production work, but an animal cannot own copyright, and per Slater's own initial comments, he was not intending for the monkey to take the pictures. He did not set up the conditions for those pictures any more than the manufacturer of his camera did. I won't insult Slater - though his attempt to shake down Public Knowledge over a patently obvious case of fair use was a dramatically poor idea - but Wikimedia is in the right here. Resolute 23:09, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- I can't comment on fair use claims, but WMF is not in possesion of the photo taken by the monkey, it is possession of the photoshopped file uploaded by Mr. Slater. The original work is not copyrightable but the whether this is a derivative work (metadata says it's from photoshop). Without the original, how can WMF say with authority there is no artistic improvement or change? This is not an armchair concern [1]. He's not obligated to provide the original to WMF and that is the only version that would be free from any claims. If WMF does not have the original shot snapped by the monkey (and the original is not what is uploaded), they are taking a big risk that hosted file is not a copyrightable derivative of the original. Metadata has the original at a different size(the commons version is cropped from the original). Is cropping the same as framing a shot? That email from the WMF lawyer about requirements to assert copyright requires "framing" might come back to bite them if WMF can't come up with the rest of the picture to remove that artistic bit of framing done after the monkey took the picture. --DHeyward (talk) 18:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Just a short while ago there were reports about ArbCom banning all feminists from wikipedia, they had quotes and everything. John lilburne (talk) 00:14, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- My thought isn't to mock Mr. Slater, simply not to delete the photo - and to me this seems to be true of the other people here who are saying not to delete a notable public domain photo. When governments declare that binary numbers are property, deleting photos becomes a business decision rather than a matter of politeness. And the business of all the volunteers on all the projects is providing public access to content. Wnt (talk) 00:36, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- User:Wnt is it truly our business to provide public access to all possible within the letter of the law content that we can grab? I would argue no. Otherwise we wouldn't have things like WP:RS and various arcane notability !rules about this being "automatically notable" (every single podunk town) and this not unless under certain conditions being met ("celebrities" who are famous for just being famous, and porn stars for instance have stricter rules than regular actors). I think there's certainly a moral aspect to this decision and the more I hear and research on what the response of the Community at places like the Wikimania convention it disheartens me greatly and I get disillusioned that, oh my L-rd these are the people we have entrusted with spreading and conserving for the World the sum of knowledge of Mankind?! Wearing monkey masks, mocking the man, being prideful, and gloating over a "win" over a man who simply wanted control over pictures. If he hadn't publicized the photos in the first place they wouldn't have become famous. He should get some credit for bringing them to the attention of the world. What if he had kept them to himself and had never posted them ANYWHERE out of fear of copyright problems? Isn't that the big fear we should be fearing? That Commons has set a precedent that all photographers will now fear- don't advertise or post or show to ANYONE any photos that could possibly not be confirmed as your copyright property. We have stifled the very growth of public property and knowledge and "cool things" that will come into this world. Way to go Commons. Congratulations.Camelbinky (talk) 18:27, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- You make it sound like we wrote the law ourselves. Either the photo is copyrighted, and we're blocked from using it by external powers, or it isn't, in which case nobody who has the money for legal advice is going to pay him anything. You are free to go lobby your congressman for stricter copyright - a lot of people have done so over the years - but I don't believe that's the right way. I think it is long past time we recognize that copyright violates basic freedom of expression; this was always true (indeed, the intent from the time of registration of the first English publishers) but it gains significant effect when the cost of copyright greatly exceeds the cost of replication. I believe that every taxpayer could be required to pay an amount proportional to their income tax liability to independent funding organizations of his or her choice that fund notable works of art; these could reward people who write, paint, draw, throw paint at canvasses, or hand cameras to monkeys according to their donors' wishes. In such a way we could fund artists - on average - considerably more than we do now (showing some middlemen and record company lawyers to the unemployment line, making fewer filthy rich celebrities but making creative endeavors a reliable occupation for a much larger number of people), charge most people less for royalties than we pay now (saving money on court costs and investor uncertainty), and abolish all limits on what you can read, copy, parody, and adapt. Until such time as we do so, the halls of copyright will be paved with injustices - singers who have to sign themselves into 30 years of indentured servitude to "make it" in the industry, artists who make decent works but fail to catch on and make nothing, people who get sued for all their profits over a half-second sound sample. Just add this to the list. Wnt (talk) 21:01, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- User:Wnt is it truly our business to provide public access to all possible within the letter of the law content that we can grab? I would argue no. Otherwise we wouldn't have things like WP:RS and various arcane notability !rules about this being "automatically notable" (every single podunk town) and this not unless under certain conditions being met ("celebrities" who are famous for just being famous, and porn stars for instance have stricter rules than regular actors). I think there's certainly a moral aspect to this decision and the more I hear and research on what the response of the Community at places like the Wikimania convention it disheartens me greatly and I get disillusioned that, oh my L-rd these are the people we have entrusted with spreading and conserving for the World the sum of knowledge of Mankind?! Wearing monkey masks, mocking the man, being prideful, and gloating over a "win" over a man who simply wanted control over pictures. If he hadn't publicized the photos in the first place they wouldn't have become famous. He should get some credit for bringing them to the attention of the world. What if he had kept them to himself and had never posted them ANYWHERE out of fear of copyright problems? Isn't that the big fear we should be fearing? That Commons has set a precedent that all photographers will now fear- don't advertise or post or show to ANYONE any photos that could possibly not be confirmed as your copyright property. We have stifled the very growth of public property and knowledge and "cool things" that will come into this world. Way to go Commons. Congratulations.Camelbinky (talk) 18:27, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- This discussion should be closed as Jimbo appears to have no intention of stepping in it (so to speak). Nyth63 04:23, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- So, as I understand Wnt, for us to protect 'our' photos at Commons, we should take every photo that we can, never mind if it means stealing a bunch of them? Hey, the law is wrong anyways, right? There should not be any copyrights, so we'll just go ahead and follow our law! --- Is that us? We steal from the ones weaker than us?
- From my point of view Wikipedia has a very poor history of disrespect for copyright. Long ago I uploaded a few photos and tagged them as not for commercial use. Eventually they were deleted, because it conflicted with WP's copyright, and that is just fine. What was not fine, was that, in a period I was absent, some user(s?) changed the copyright notice that I placed. How come some random user has the right to change that? They should not. I am not uploading anything, ever, as far as I can see.
- Anyway, the main question, as I see it, is that we have users arguing and making decisions over complex legal matter. That is why I stay clear from the deletion forums for photos because I can not make a educated opinion whether a image is, or not, fair use, or if a copyright, or public domain, claim is coherent, let alone correct. We are not lawyers... how can we do that?
- That said, as a layman, it feels like we stole that man's photo. Shame on us - Nabla (talk) 10:03, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Even if he can't assert copyright on the original, I doubt the raw monkey shot was released straight away. It sounds like he put in a lot of effort after the fact. He has two bites: one is as the original copyright holder, which WMF disputes. The other is a derivative-works copyright holder. How much did his photoshop programming change the original that would make this a derivative work? Is retrieving a file from a camera, modifying and then putting it to paper a substantial change? Is photoshopping an image an artistic change in presentation? Personally, I don't see why WMF doesn't simply honor the takedown request. It's a picture of a monkey for crying out loud. --DHeyward (talk) 11:10, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- No its an existential issue, if the WMF and it's child pickpockets can't steal this there is so much more they can't steal either. Remember the other year when they went apeshit over removing a butterfly photo taken and uploaded by a confused twelve year old? In that case they got Fagin's mother (Geoff Brigham) to stand on the doorstep and yell at the kid. There are at least 8K of music articles where the guts of allmusic review has been snagged and the other parts of the article filtched from sites per MD's (WMF) instructions as moonriddengirl. John lilburne (talk) 11:47, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- yeah, yeah, sweat of the brow. The usual "The museum paid a lot of money to put in those high quality lights, so why don't you just accept that any photos you have of the ancient artwork in it ought to be their property, viewable only by those with the money to pay?" Or in this case, consider the maker of the camera -- doesn't the company deserve an eternal copyright reward for making a camera so robust and easy to use a monkey can work it, even before you consider the amount of internal programming needed to convert raw CCD readings into a linear and well-balanced set of color curves! It's a lot more creative work than the person who owned the camera did. Really, whenever an amateur volunteer clicks a button taking a picture of some landmark in a rare country where freedom of panorama is involved, isn't he like the monkey? Clearly the copyright on a photo you take with your camera ought to reside with the owner of the camera software who put in all that sweat of the brow and creative endeavor to make it work! Wnt (talk) 13:49, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Strawman fallacy. "Sweat of the brow" claims by themselves are not a derivative work without an artistic change. Even if the original monkey photo has no copyright, that photo has never been uploaded. Only the modified version from the photographer has been uploaded. If those changes are artistic, he can make a derivative copyright claim. A person drew a mustache on the Mona Lisa and it was enough of an artistic change to enable a derivative copyright claim. Commons is not in possession of the photo the monkey took, they are in possession of a derivative of that photo made and released by a person. --DHeyward (talk) 17:21, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Proof that you can't please everyone
I would hate to be in the middle ot this mess. Mysoginism runs rampant in the UK. Nyth63 16:48, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
- The unfortunate thing about the whole thing is that Harriet Harman is a serious person with real credentials and a solid track record on women's issues. A pink bus just feels to me like a stunt not worthy of someone of her stature.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:36, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- I laughed at most of the article. Some people happen to like the color pink. Some don't (for various reasons). Those that don't seem to make it their mission to bother everyone else with their opinion. And to have to apologize for having a male driver is hilarious too. Nyth63 21:39, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- Feminism doesn't mean discrimination against men, so a male driver in the pool is only to be expected. The "woman to woman" part is more dubious ... unfortunately, it follows a long and international tradition. Every time an American politician "reaches out to Latinos" (which must be daily -- Latino x anything => Latino and so it's a constantly growing category on the census), he's doing the same thing. All the politicians see a couple of demographic facts about somebody on a form and start basing their whole strategy around racial/sexual statistics - ignoring that what people need are ideas that are valid no matter what the viewer's extraction. Wnt (talk) 14:07, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
- I laughed at most of the article. Some people happen to like the color pink. Some don't (for various reasons). Those that don't seem to make it their mission to bother everyone else with their opinion. And to have to apologize for having a male driver is hilarious too. Nyth63 21:39, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
- If there had not been a controversial pink bus, people might know nothing of this campaign, but look at how much publicity has been generated. Sometimes 'mistakes' are not as much of an accident as they might seem. --nonsense ferret 20:32, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Your birthdate
Hi Jimbo, I noticed you posted on Talk:Jimmy Wales#Birthdate redux that your birthdate is not on the 8th as Britannica says. [2] Britannica also says that you "provided a scanned image of [your] passport showing [your] birth date to be Aug. 8, 1966." Is this true, and if so, are we to believe that your passport has your birthdate wrong? I hope that your response will settle this silly dispute once and for all. Everymorning talk 02:48, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- This revision is pretty good. What I'm guilty of is having a sense of humor. My birth certificate has an error, which has propagated across many but not all legal documents. (As a side note, my birth certificate actually spells my name wrong - as Jimmie.) My mother and father were there, though, and it was definitely not the date listed on my birth certificate. Their theory is that the doctor was tired and didn't note the time (11:21pm, if my memory serves) and got back to his office and filled out the paperwork at the end of his shift in the morning. My sense of humor has been, in the past, to play with people - if they say one date, I say "Oh, that isn't what my mother says". If they say the other day, I say, "Oh that isn't what my birth certificate says". --Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:14, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Except, right now, the article has the 7th on the first line in the lead, and the 8th in the first line under early life. Very funny indeed. Nyth63 15:00, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Are we really that concerned with his proper birth date that we can't share in the humor? Wow. Call someone Jewish and there's an uproar that you can't label people that it is possible BLP to label people as simply "he is Jewish" instead of the awkwardly worded "his mother and father are of Jewish descent" (even if there are quotes where the person has outright said "I am Jewish", such as one quote by Adam Levine). BUT good lord, say yes let's all have a field day having to narrow down someone's birthday because THAT'S not personal information or might be construed as a BLP violation if you get it slightly wrong. Camelbinky (talk) 15:49, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe we should put the "7th" In quotes? Nyth63 16:58, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Or maybe we just average it out and call it 7.5. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:01, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- 7.4865th (1401/2880) ? Nyth63 17:31, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe we should have a birthdate template that changes date of birth according to Time Zone. It was the 8th somewhere. That way everyone can have an ambiguous birthdate. It's only fair. --DHeyward (talk) 18:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Jimbo, you could just be like the world's oldest reigning monarch and have two birthdays!--5 albert square (talk) 02:22, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe we should have a birthdate template that changes date of birth according to Time Zone. It was the 8th somewhere. That way everyone can have an ambiguous birthdate. It's only fair. --DHeyward (talk) 18:24, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- 7.4865th (1401/2880) ? Nyth63 17:31, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Or maybe we just average it out and call it 7.5. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:01, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Maybe we should put the "7th" In quotes? Nyth63 16:58, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Are we really that concerned with his proper birth date that we can't share in the humor? Wow. Call someone Jewish and there's an uproar that you can't label people that it is possible BLP to label people as simply "he is Jewish" instead of the awkwardly worded "his mother and father are of Jewish descent" (even if there are quotes where the person has outright said "I am Jewish", such as one quote by Adam Levine). BUT good lord, say yes let's all have a field day having to narrow down someone's birthday because THAT'S not personal information or might be construed as a BLP violation if you get it slightly wrong. Camelbinky (talk) 15:49, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Except, right now, the article has the 7th on the first line in the lead, and the 8th in the first line under early life. Very funny indeed. Nyth63 15:00, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
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Request, though many will find controversial if you did, but hope you at least consider (Monkey redux)
I formally request that you, as founder (or co-founder whatever people insist upon), perhaps could consider using your influence, wisdom, perhaps even direct powers that you may still voluntarily possess, to cause a change on the decision of the monkey photo we have discussed in the thread above. You seemed, perhaps, to be open to the idea that while legally the WMF has the right, that morally the decision may not have been and that more consideration should be taken. I am wondering if you are willing for a... debate? RfC? Or just Wikipedia's version of amicus briefs be given to you and perhaps you and the WMF could take a second look on moral and ethical instead of legal grounds on whether perhaps we should do, what in my humble opinion is the right thing to do. I'm sure a lot will argue here you have no grounds or power to do any such thing, but the decision at Commons and various comments, attitudes, and responses by some in the Community have truly dispirited me and this was all I could think to do, to feel like I'm at least trying to do the right thing, in my mind.Camelbinky (talk) 18:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Could you stop beating on the already dead WP:HORSE already? The legal opinion of WMF is in and seriously, this debate is getting just plain ridiculous. WMF is legally in the right and indeed might have their own horse in this race because protecting public domain images is one of their own interests. They're one of the only organizations I know that constantly put their money where their mouth is on subjects like this. Tutelary (talk) 18:42, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- What law school did you go to? And you want to talk about putting their money where their mouth is, has the WMF actually done that in this case? Given their budget and need to allocate wisely I doubt this is a huge priority to spend everything and anything.Camelbinky (talk) 20:07, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- This horse is far from dead. It is possible to be legally right and at the same time to be completely morally and ethically wrong. It appears to me that camera owner in this case has been greatly harmed by a legal "opinion". To me it looks like the WMF has no idea if the are embarrassing themselves or not by not even considering what is the "right" thing to do. Nyth63 18:59, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Morally, we have the right to read whatever we want, write whatever we want, ignore all tyrants who dictate any limit on that for any reason, and await the SPA/RIAA S.W.A.T. teams with AK47s at the ready under the jihadist skull-and-crossbones banner of the Cathach of St. Columba. Wnt (talk) 21:09, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- In other words, Wnt, your position is that we should renounce any legal or ethical restrictions on our content at all. No BLP policy against libel or invading privacy; no honoring copyrights (if someone wants to post the full text of a book published last year, tough); no excluding child porn or photos taken by sneaking into a bathroom—no rules at all.
- If that is really your view, you are merely a common troll, and your participation here is dangerous.
- If that is not really your view, then your post is a useless piece of rhetorical exaggeration, and you should learn to think before typing.
- In either case, you are not a serious participant in this conversation. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:18, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not the one who started with the "moral" arguments. I'm well aware that the legal standards are what matter because the legal action is the threat to WMF. If people want to argue law then let them argue law, but don't start with this "the law doesn't require us to delete this, so let's be moral, because not to be moral the way I want would be illegal!" That's not serious conversation, though it is an extremely common tactic around here of late, a time-wasting loop-the-loop that truly deserves dismissal. Morally, I admire everyone over the history of the Internet from Usenet on who have made it possible to simply transmit information and never mind what it is. All your censorship exceptions need to be dealt with other ways - by teaching people to look for reliable sources, by stopping employment discrimination against women who have revenge porn circulating, by making law enforcement actually find the people who are molesting children instead of jailing random nerds who were running file sharing software a picture passed over afterwards. That's what's moral. If you want to come argue law, then stay on that topic. Wnt (talk) 13:59, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Morally, we have the right to read whatever we want, write whatever we want, ignore all tyrants who dictate any limit on that for any reason, and await the SPA/RIAA S.W.A.T. teams with AK47s at the ready under the jihadist skull-and-crossbones banner of the Cathach of St. Columba. Wnt (talk) 21:09, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Well the dilemma, here, seems quite deep. The WMF is of the opinion that legally the image may be hosted. The editors have apparently decided it will be hosted, to the apparent disgust of others but apparently those disgusted are unable to use regular process to get it removed. For the WMF to now take the editorial step of removing the image on non-legal grounds, it basically must use an out-of-process action. Whatever the justice of this particular matter - does the WMF becoming uber content editor make good sense? -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:31, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. One possibility would be to conclude that while the legal opinion is there is no copyright issue, the situation is close enough to the line that it would be undesirable to test it. Another possibility would be to conclude that it is ethically undesirable to host content, at least absent a high degree of shown need, in the direct face of an entirely plausible request for deletion by the creator (or at least, someone intimately involved with the creation). And, importantly, the fact pattern here is sufficiently eccentric, as shown by the truly bizarre nature of some of the hypothetical comparisons that people have offered, that no broadranging precedent would be created. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:36, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Your first possibility, appears to be a legal position (don't test it) - of course they seem to have already decided against that but presumably they could reverse course; your second position appears to be in the nature of site editorial content policy (eg. "our content policy is need in the face of complaint") - the WMF making one off ipsa dixit editorial site content policy does seem like a far reaching precedent. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:56, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- There have been occasional Office actions in the past; an admitted difference is that those have been obscure while this one would be widely publicized. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:03, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Right, but as I understand specific to Office Actions, there is a line to maintain: this, and no further - legal judgement but not editorial judgement. Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:11, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- There have been occasional Office actions in the past; an admitted difference is that those have been obscure while this one would be widely publicized. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:03, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Your first possibility, appears to be a legal position (don't test it) - of course they seem to have already decided against that but presumably they could reverse course; your second position appears to be in the nature of site editorial content policy (eg. "our content policy is need in the face of complaint") - the WMF making one off ipsa dixit editorial site content policy does seem like a far reaching precedent. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:56, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. One possibility would be to conclude that while the legal opinion is there is no copyright issue, the situation is close enough to the line that it would be undesirable to test it. Another possibility would be to conclude that it is ethically undesirable to host content, at least absent a high degree of shown need, in the direct face of an entirely plausible request for deletion by the creator (or at least, someone intimately involved with the creation). And, importantly, the fact pattern here is sufficiently eccentric, as shown by the truly bizarre nature of some of the hypothetical comparisons that people have offered, that no broadranging precedent would be created. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:36, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- To answer the specific question asked, I have no intentions to intervene here at all.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Disclosure issue
Jimmy, could you comment on a situation? If an organization hired a consultant with a proprietary area of practice (one that they sort of have a "name trademark" in doing -- like Google is practically associated with "contextual advertising", or like Apple is practically associated with "portable media player"), to do research that results in a report that finds that the organization is the world's best/biggest/fastest-growing entity in that area of practice, I understand that there's nothing wrong with that. But, what if the organization's employees also create and author a new Wikipedia article about the area of practice, using primarily the consultant's white paper as a reliable source, then promote the research results with a press release that links back to the Wikipedia article about what it is that they're supposedly best/biggest at -- and none of the organization's employees disclose any conflict of interest in their authorship of the Wikipedia article. Is that a violation of the Wikimedia Terms of Use clauses about disclosure? Do you feel that the organization has behaved ethically? Looking forward to your response. - WilmingMa (talk) 20:52, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Participatory grantmaking, mayhaps? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:55, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- This is certainly a convoluted restating of a discussion going on at Wikipediocracy about WMF's "Participatory Grantmaking" and allegations of a paid self-congratulatory propaganda offensive relating to that. Carrite (talk) 21:39, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- As usual, I find hypothetical questions like this to be unsatisfactory. Please give actual information so that people can evaluate it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:23, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Jimmy. I thought that if I put the scenario in hypothetical terms it would enable you to respond sort of generally about what constitute ethical practices for employees at large, rather than be put on the defensive to try to "cover" for your Foundation. There is a story you can "Wikimedia+Foundation+caught+self-promoting+on+Wikipedia" find on Google that should summarize the "actual information" that you requested. - WilmingMa (talk) 15:34, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6068 --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:41, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Jimmy. I thought that if I put the scenario in hypothetical terms it would enable you to respond sort of generally about what constitute ethical practices for employees at large, rather than be put on the defensive to try to "cover" for your Foundation. There is a story you can "Wikimedia+Foundation+caught+self-promoting+on+Wikipedia" find on Google that should summarize the "actual information" that you requested. - WilmingMa (talk) 15:34, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Idea for improvement
Hello Mr. Wales. I must apologize, for I don't know if this message is as much for you as it is for all of your talk-page stalkers, but with as many people who patrol this page, I thought this would be as good a place as any. This idea is to both promote new users and user-retention, by making Wikipedia just a little easier to use.
One of the most difficult things I had to learn to deal with was all of the wiki mark-up. Although I now understand the necessity of it all, one of the most frustrating things about editing an article is weeding through all of the references on the edit page.
My idea is: When someone goes to an edit-page to make changes, perhaps the references could be arranged just like in the article, that is, as numbers from 1 to whatever. Beneath the main edit-section could be another section with the references spelled out separately from the text, so that people can still edit them from the same page. To simplify things, when a person wants to add a ref, they simply add it like normal. However, when they hit "preview," that ref could change to a number and drop down to a section (or window) beneath the text. It seems to me that, by moving the refs out of the way (to a different section), it would make easier for those trying to both edit the text and the refs. Of course, I'm no programmer (still pretty computer-illiterate) and I don't know how hard that would be to implement, nor what kind of other chaos it may cause. Therefore, I'll just propose the idea once and let you all take it from here. Zaereth (talk) 13:51, 21 February 2015 (UTC)