→RfC: To Jimbo |
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<small>I have changed this section header to something more unwieldy but less inflamatory</small> <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<font style="color:#accC10;background:#0000fa;"> Chat </font>]] </span></small> 21:28, 21 September 2011 (UTC) |
<small>I have changed this section header to something more unwieldy but less inflamatory</small> <small><span style="border:1px solid #0000ff;padding:1px;">[[User:Pedro|<b>Pedro</b>]] : [[User_talk:Pedro|<font style="color:#accC10;background:#0000fa;"> Chat </font>]] </span></small> 21:28, 21 September 2011 (UTC) |
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:<small>Thanks, I didn't understand what the OP was complaining about until you changed the title. [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 21:38, 21 September 2011 (UTC)</small> |
:<small>Thanks, I didn't understand what the OP was complaining about until you changed the title. [[User:A Quest For Knowledge|A Quest For Knowledge]] ([[User talk:A Quest For Knowledge|talk]]) 21:38, 21 September 2011 (UTC)</small> |
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::OK, the sole issue seems to be this question of whether the reason given in the log matches the description of the material which was revdeleted. I can't deal with it right now as I'm not at home and I would need to examine it - there are some posts of mine and some of other people. However, as indicated earlier I don't want to pursue the issue. If people feel they are being compared to murderous tyrants please be assured that the thought never crossed my mind, and I apologise unreservedly for any distress caused. [[Special:Contributions/82.35.193.46|82.35.193.46]] ([[User talk:82.35.193.46|talk]]) 22:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC) |
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== 20 million all-language articles by Halloween == |
== 20 million all-language articles by Halloween == |
Revision as of 22:24, 21 September 2011
(Manual archive list) |
Schools
Why does your encyclopedia want to have pages on schools that are just wrong like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kesgrave_Hall_School was ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wlmmcf (talk • contribs) 21:09, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- If by "what," you mean "want," it has yet to be determined what "Jimbo's encyclopedia" "wants" in this case. You started an AfD on this article less than 24 hours ago. Right now the "vote" seems to be 2-2. Sometime in about 6 days, when more editors have weighed in and an administrator closes the AfD, then we will all know what Wikipedia "wants." (Which, if the article is kept, may not be what Jimbo "wants" based on his recent school-related comments, but time will tell on that as well.) Neutron (talk) 23:31, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Sorry for the typo it was late and did not check it corrected now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wlmmcf (talk • contribs) 08:10, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- If you can look in the history and point out a version that you think was particularly wrong, that'd be helpful. One topic that people are interested in is how maintainable articles on schools are, and how badly wrong they are, and for how long. Some people (though not many) may have an inherent bias in one way or the other that schools should almost *all* have an article or that almost *no* schools should have one. But for most people, the question of where to draw the line is based on evidence of quality (or lack of quality) on average, and examples are helpful in shaping our understanding of that.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for taking the time to reply, the version was http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kesgrave_Hall_School&oldid=450147754 Wlmmcf Wlmmcf (talk) 21:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Self identified 13 year old joins WP:WikiProject_Pornography
Hi Jimbo. Long time reader - first time commenter. There is a discussion on WP:ANI about an editor who has self identified on his userpage that he is 13 years old and that he participates in WP:WikiProject_Pornography. Other editors have noticed that he hasn't actually made any contributions yet to the Porn wikiproject. However, there is concern that a 13 year old shouldn't be contributing to an area of Wikipedia that is dedicated to porn. Some have presented arguments that because the topic is educational and not sexually explicit that it should be allowed while others have said that although it is educational there is still some sexually explicit content or pictures. Some have said that we wouldn't have known the user is 13 and there are many 13 year olds reading the material so it shouldn't be a problem, while others have said that because we know he is 13 and we know he is interested and focused in the Porn Wikiproject that we are now knowingly contributing sexually explicit content to a minor in violation of US law. What are you takes on the issue? Is this somewhere the foundation should step in and give a legal opinion?--v/r - TP 16:04, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- This isn't just about WikiProject Porn. The true question here is if minors should be disallowed from editing porn-related articles on an educational website? (I think Dr. Blofeld misunderstands the point. Implementing a restriction at the WikiProject won't actually do anything.) Swarm u / t 17:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Anything with Porn and 13 year old next to each other should send alarm bells to anybody. Even if his editing is harmless it could ignite into a nasty media report that wikipedia supports a 13 year old editing pornography articles, and do you realise how many parents would ban wikipedia from their kids if they read that in a newspaper? They would be missing out on learning from thousands of articles because of it which is contrary to our goals. Jimbo very likely would be purely against it for media/legal safety sake even if he thinks the editor's contributions are not involving explicit material as it is a risk we can't afford to take but I will be interested to see what he has to say. Obviously we don't know the age of most of our contributors but should somebody disclose they are 13 then in my view they should be prohibited from editing pornography articles or taking part in that wikiproject but are fully welcome to edit anything else. Perhaps this is time to impose an age minimum for that project as its rocky ground.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Although Wikipedia is not censored I do agree that it is reasonable at the least to put a banner at the top of that project page with some sort of disclaimer that editors should be over X years old to edit. The tricky thing here is, depending on where they are that age differs. Some states are less than others and some countries don't care at all. --Kumioko (talk) 18:00, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Would an 18+ restriction to WikiProject Porn be enough, or would we have to accept it as a general rule covering all porn articles? Or should we handle it on a case by case basis for individual minors? Swarm u / t 18:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I believe we should keep in mind that there are at least two separate issues here. The first is what our policies should be, and we have a right to set those policies. The second is whether we are doing anything "illegal", either by policy or the absence of policy, and that is a broader question as it involves not just editing articles about porn but opens up a legal can of worms on age limits and Wikipedia more generally.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:18, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- There's another related issue unmentioned above. If we merely slap a tag or warning on such pages, there's every reason to suspect that a 13 year-old user won't want to so self-identify. BusterD (talk) 18:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well I don't beleive we are doing anything "illegal" because even in the porn project there is very little explicit content. Lots of movie titles and Biographies but not much media. I do think that the public image could be a factor though and could be presented in a negative light by the media. I think if we start by adding a disclaimer to the project and to the Projects template that is posted on the articles thats a good start. We "could" also create a page disclaimer that could be presented at the top of some articles (like the ones in the porn project) so that it would notify anyone looking at the article that there is content that might be offensive or unsuitable. Maybe something like the Maintenance banner but maybe in a different color. Now I'm not talking censoring anything, just a message notifying the reader of their obligation to look away. --Kumioko (talk) 18:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Which brings up the thorny issue of enforcement.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:30, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I believe the essential issue is priority. Is it more important for us to protect 13 year-old eyes from editing and/or viewing content, or is it more important a user feels free to self-identify and/or act on self-interest? IMHO, a youngster might not consider the consequences of any self-identification. Another issue to be ranked would include public perception of how we address such priorities through policy and common practice, as described above. This isn't about this issue at all, but about our responsiveness. BusterD (talk) 18:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Buster, I agree with you and Kumioko that public perception is an issue, but even that will be difficult to resolve. At the same time, the legal issues are complex, and because it has been raised publicly here and at ANI, I think Wikimedia lawyers should at least be alerted to it.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:54, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I believe the essential issue is priority. Is it more important for us to protect 13 year-old eyes from editing and/or viewing content, or is it more important a user feels free to self-identify and/or act on self-interest? IMHO, a youngster might not consider the consequences of any self-identification. Another issue to be ranked would include public perception of how we address such priorities through policy and common practice, as described above. This isn't about this issue at all, but about our responsiveness. BusterD (talk) 18:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- There's another related issue unmentioned above. If we merely slap a tag or warning on such pages, there's every reason to suspect that a 13 year-old user won't want to so self-identify. BusterD (talk) 18:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I believe we should keep in mind that there are at least two separate issues here. The first is what our policies should be, and we have a right to set those policies. The second is whether we are doing anything "illegal", either by policy or the absence of policy, and that is a broader question as it involves not just editing articles about porn but opens up a legal can of worms on age limits and Wikipedia more generally.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:18, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Would an 18+ restriction to WikiProject Porn be enough, or would we have to accept it as a general rule covering all porn articles? Or should we handle it on a case by case basis for individual minors? Swarm u / t 18:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Although Wikipedia is not censored I do agree that it is reasonable at the least to put a banner at the top of that project page with some sort of disclaimer that editors should be over X years old to edit. The tricky thing here is, depending on where they are that age differs. Some states are less than others and some countries don't care at all. --Kumioko (talk) 18:00, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Anything with Porn and 13 year old next to each other should send alarm bells to anybody. Even if his editing is harmless it could ignite into a nasty media report that wikipedia supports a 13 year old editing pornography articles, and do you realise how many parents would ban wikipedia from their kids if they read that in a newspaper? They would be missing out on learning from thousands of articles because of it which is contrary to our goals. Jimbo very likely would be purely against it for media/legal safety sake even if he thinks the editor's contributions are not involving explicit material as it is a risk we can't afford to take but I will be interested to see what he has to say. Obviously we don't know the age of most of our contributors but should somebody disclose they are 13 then in my view they should be prohibited from editing pornography articles or taking part in that wikiproject but are fully welcome to edit anything else. Perhaps this is time to impose an age minimum for that project as its rocky ground.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:55, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- On Wikipdia (or elsewhere) 13-year-olds should not be permitted to edit anything connected with porn. For their own good and the good of the project. Children are children and adults are adults, and while most 13/14-year-old boys disagree, especially about porn: adults are bigger, older and know what's best - so tough - little 13-year old will have to get his kicks playing outside in the fresh air. Giacomo Returned 18:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I can't disagree with your position, but none of the issues discussed above provide a method of addressing your proper concern... BusterD (talk) 18:50, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well frankly I am more worried about WP's reputation than protecting the 13 year old eyes of an editor who clearly has access to the internet anyway. A controversial statement perhaps I admit. As I stated above I think leaving a warning banner will help for a start. Then if we know that an underage editor is contributing to areas that they ought not too then we should stop that as best we can. If we don't know then there's not too much we can do which also enforces the problem Buster mentions of driving the editor deeper underground. We could also require underage users to self identify as being under 18 and if they don't they could be blocked. With that said we have a lot of under 18 year old editors and I would hate to drive them away, some are in college and participating in the Unversities and other projects. --Kumioko (talk) 18:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I can't disagree with your position, but none of the issues discussed above provide a method of addressing your proper concern... BusterD (talk) 18:50, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
We have the option of community topic bans, so I am raising an RfC at WP:VPP to try to gauge community views on this. --Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 19:19, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- "We could also require underage users to self identify as being under 18 and if they don't they could be blocked." This is impractical, or at least meaningless, since the only way to learn that an editor is under 18 is if they self identify as such. Therefore it would usually be impossible for administrators to discover that an editor had failed to self identify as under 18. In addition, since we generally advise minors not to disclose their age anyway, it's not clear why this would be a good idea. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:28, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I agree, but having it doesn't hurt either. It establishes that the community addresses this issue seriously. We already have nearly unenforceable policy, like WP:NOPAY, that exists as a principle. Even WP:NPOV is hard to "enforce" but its existence allows editors to at least direct discussion rather than "ramble on" on a topic. The enforceability of a principle is secondary, in my view, to the principle itself. --Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 19:42, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- The word "minor", as a legal term, is defined differently in different jurisdictions and in different statutes. Thus, it is not safe to say that the magical age is 18.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:38, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Florida law applies to all Wikimedia hosted projects as per ToS - so this issue is moot.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 19:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm astonished at the legal opinions expressed at Wikipedia. I wasn't aware that choice of law or forum clauses had any impact on criminal laws. And to the extent we're talking about civil suits, are you familiar with all the laws in Florida?--Bbb23 (talk) 19:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I am saying, that the question of what "adult age" is in wikipedia is moot and not subject to consensus because Office already said: adults in wikipedia are those under Florida law. I am stating a fact, not giving an opinion.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 20:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- You said the issue I raised was moot because of the ToS. Whatever the ToS says is fact, although an interpretation of what it means would be opinion. Your conclusion that the issue is moot is an opinion. I never said anything about consensus, which, in my view, has nothing to do with the legal issues.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:43, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- You are correct, actually. My apologies. The only meta-policy that the Foundation has that addresses age is m:CheckUser policy, which says that "place of residence" is the criteria. THat does still makes the question moot, as "place of residence" makes the editor responsible for proving this. --Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 21:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I like the apology part (smile), but I honestly don't understand any of the rest. I don't understand what the CheckUser policy has to with what I originally said, and I'm not sure what question you now think is still moot. In any event, you don't have to respond to this if you don't wish to as I think it's become too much of a detour anyway.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- You are correct, actually. My apologies. The only meta-policy that the Foundation has that addresses age is m:CheckUser policy, which says that "place of residence" is the criteria. THat does still makes the question moot, as "place of residence" makes the editor responsible for proving this. --Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 21:02, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- You said the issue I raised was moot because of the ToS. Whatever the ToS says is fact, although an interpretation of what it means would be opinion. Your conclusion that the issue is moot is an opinion. I never said anything about consensus, which, in my view, has nothing to do with the legal issues.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:43, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I am saying, that the question of what "adult age" is in wikipedia is moot and not subject to consensus because Office already said: adults in wikipedia are those under Florida law. I am stating a fact, not giving an opinion.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 20:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm astonished at the legal opinions expressed at Wikipedia. I wasn't aware that choice of law or forum clauses had any impact on criminal laws. And to the extent we're talking about civil suits, are you familiar with all the laws in Florida?--Bbb23 (talk) 19:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Florida law applies to all Wikimedia hosted projects as per ToS - so this issue is moot.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 19:44, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- This is the latest in a series of WikiProject-associated controversies - others being whether you can put a WikiProject LGBT tag on the talk page of an article about a BLP who isn't widely known as such, and the disclaimer I added during the seal controversy (which, though moved, persists to this day, and yes, I know that it violates WP:NODISCLAIMERS) that WikiProject FBI is "open to all editors and is not approved, endorsed, nor authorized by the FBI in any way". I think that the recurrent problem we have here is that people confuse WikiProjects, which are about improving articles in some way related to various topics, as somehow representing or advocating these viewpoints. It may be time to think up a good line to add to the general disclaimer. IANAL, but I propose something like: "Wikipedia users may voluntarily band together to form WikiProjects to improve our coverage of some topics. The association of a user or an article with a WikiProject does not indicate any link with or opinion regarding the topic of the WikiProject, nor any endorsement or authorization by or association with any outside organization. WikiProject tags and user participation are merely internal notes to facilitate the upgrading of our encyclopedic coverage." Wnt (talk) 21:27, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Break
- Obvious solution
Ban pornography and pornography related entries from Wikipedia. Case closed. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 03:06, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Obvious problem
- Define pornography. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Obvious answer
- ...
I don't actually know that banning pornography is the ideal solution, but I think one of the main roadblocks that we have as a community when faced with problems like this is our lack of willingness to consider more totalistic solutions to problems. Why not consider leaving really messy topic areas that are subject to all kinds of legal restrictions and social morays to the rest of the internet? Honestly, as an encyclopedia, we really don't have to explain every piece of porn lingo, nor do we have to include a bio on every two bit porn actor. Conversely do we have to get rid of them? Maybe not, but let's consider the possibility of doing so, and thereby not dealing with this can of worms, and the inevitable future cans of worms that covering pornography topics will give to us.Griswaldo (talk) 03:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- When you say "ban pornography", the censor alarms go off. But I don't see a problem with defining pornography as a thing that Wikipedia is not! Lots of problems would solve, it's not immoral to define what we are not, and it is an educational ruse to impart any social value for its inclusion. My76Strat (talk) 04:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I agree, and this policy would also allow us to get rid of other controversial and messy things; we can delete all the images of Mohammed, oh and finally put an end to the endless fighting over the Israeli–Palestinian conflict related articles by just deleting the entire topic area. Either Wikipedia is uncensored, (to the extent permitted by law) or it isn't. Monty845 04:20, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- It is naive to think that we do not already limit our content in several ways. Wikipedia is not absolutely "not censored," even if you add the caveat about not being censored within the limits of the law. And by "the law" do you mean "the laws applicable at the location of the servers" or some other laws, since, as you know laws vary between different localities, and different nations. But back to the point. We limit content all the time. For instance we have zero tolerance for content that is under copyright that we do not have permission to reproduce. We also do not allow certain types of material in our biographies of living people and as My76Strat points out, there is a whole slew of things we don't allow per WP:NOT. So it is naive to say that "censorship" is a black and white proposition. Whenever we choose to limit what type of content we have at Wikipedia I would hope we do so with practical rather than ideological aims in mind. Pornography is not as clear cut, either socially or legally, as something like copyright, yet it is still a much thornier social and legal issue in the English speaking world (this is en-wiki after all) than the I-P conflict or depictions of Mohammad. For one, the encyclopedia needs to keep its reputation in mind and a 13 year old WikiProject Pornography member is a possible minefield in that sense. I guarantee you that if such an issue were blown up in the media, and the community's response was WP:NOTCENSORED we'd be doing greater damage to our reputation than we ever have in the past. But the issue is bigger than simply reputation, I just use that as one example of a practical concern, as opposed to a naively ideological one. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 11:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, if we were to raise the bar of notability for porn-related topics, and perhaps include a "must be notable for other things as well" guideline, we would be significantly reducing the porn content to something that 13-year-olds may already have read about elsewhere, and which would be largely "innocent". As in: it won't be titillating for those 13-year-olds who may be here for the sordid info that adults will otherwise feel entitled to share with the world as "encyclopedic" content.
- Not to mention that it would cut down most of the remaining chaff.
- Then again, I think 13-year-olds can get similar kicks from the articles not (yet) tagged for WP:PORN, but which describe in detail, and depict, all sort of sexual pastimes. Focusing on WP:PORN's added risk for minors may be hypocritical, as long as some articles tell us how to properly enjoy a good lick on the scrotum. Dahn (talk) 12:08, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- It is naive to think that we do not already limit our content in several ways. Wikipedia is not absolutely "not censored," even if you add the caveat about not being censored within the limits of the law. And by "the law" do you mean "the laws applicable at the location of the servers" or some other laws, since, as you know laws vary between different localities, and different nations. But back to the point. We limit content all the time. For instance we have zero tolerance for content that is under copyright that we do not have permission to reproduce. We also do not allow certain types of material in our biographies of living people and as My76Strat points out, there is a whole slew of things we don't allow per WP:NOT. So it is naive to say that "censorship" is a black and white proposition. Whenever we choose to limit what type of content we have at Wikipedia I would hope we do so with practical rather than ideological aims in mind. Pornography is not as clear cut, either socially or legally, as something like copyright, yet it is still a much thornier social and legal issue in the English speaking world (this is en-wiki after all) than the I-P conflict or depictions of Mohammad. For one, the encyclopedia needs to keep its reputation in mind and a 13 year old WikiProject Pornography member is a possible minefield in that sense. I guarantee you that if such an issue were blown up in the media, and the community's response was WP:NOTCENSORED we'd be doing greater damage to our reputation than we ever have in the past. But the issue is bigger than simply reputation, I just use that as one example of a practical concern, as opposed to a naively ideological one. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 11:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Comment. I would think it a strong possibility that the '13-year-old' is a setup by someone interested in seeing what Wikipedia's reaction is, possibly for some news media. Quite a few NOW journalists are at loose ends, although the Fake Sheik now works for The Times, I believe.... 99.50.188.136 (talk) 16:18, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
RfC
Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC:_Should_underage_editors_be_topic_banned_from_articles_in_the_WikiProject_Pornography_topic_area.3F--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 19:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- The RfC is heading for no-consensus. Jimbo, this may be another time when you need to do the royal thing and just declare it by fiat as an amendment to WP:Child protection. Tolerating people who have disclosed their age as 13 as active editors in the realm of pornography is something the press will have a field day with. Gigs (talk) 22:23, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
further thinking on vandalism, revision review etc
I was thinking this morning, when I did this [1], that perhaps a flagged revision system could exist in an optional form, just like semi-protect and protect exist today. This particular article has been under severe BLP attack, with a lot of attention given to it by BLP patrollers because of this, but this is not always the case, and this particular BLP vio existed for 9.5 hours. So for example, what if a flagged revision system existed that could be turned on by sysops using the same or similar criteria as what is used to semi or proc articles, including the ability to request approval in the talk page? Also, this system could be used as part of the current talk page "edit requested" process for semi and proc articles, allowing the request to be inputed for approval (it would still have to be explained in talk) rather than the awkward and less directly attributed process of copy and paste we have now. I have no idea if this has been discussed before. Just a thought.--Cerejota If you reply, please place a {{talkback}} in my talk page if I do not reply soon. 18:45, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- BLP-vio? It looks like WP:WELLKNOWN applies.[2] [I am astounded by the call for both] blocking young editors from imaginary theories of harm and preventing them from learning about what the police have presented as a real and relevant danger. In the same day.[3] Wnt (talk) 01:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Wnt, I'm going to have to ask you to stop posting to my talk page if you can't be more thoughtful in your analysis. "A deletionist deletes, period, no matter what" sounds to me like you just aren't listening to what people are saying. That's an insulting, divisive, and frankly unnecessary and unwelcome comment. It is the sort of comment that one makes when one has nothing to say.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:40, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- I can cut out the sentence that bothers you, but doesn't this combination of "ethical" priorities bother you? Wnt (talk) 02:20, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't agree with your analysis at all. It's as if you didn't even look at the revert he's talking about. Someone linked, in an entry which merely mentions the man, about whom we do not have a biography, to an attack page, and listed it as "Ed Kramer biography". And you reacted to this as if Cerejota has done something wrong, and blathered on about irrelevancies. So, no, I don't think he has his ethical priorities wrong at all. I think you are just being mean and insulting in how you have falsely characterized what he said and did. Go away. Take a break and think about it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:25, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- I can cut out the sentence that bothers you, but doesn't this combination of "ethical" priorities bother you? Wnt (talk) 02:20, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Wnt, I'm going to have to ask you to stop posting to my talk page if you can't be more thoughtful in your analysis. "A deletionist deletes, period, no matter what" sounds to me like you just aren't listening to what people are saying. That's an insulting, divisive, and frankly unnecessary and unwelcome comment. It is the sort of comment that one makes when one has nothing to say.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 01:40, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Isn't what your suggesting how flagged protection (Wikipedia:Pending changes) was operating during the trial (except I believe it was kept to a limited number of articles)? Even after the trial, articles which had been protected remained for a while. But the original consensus only being for a 2 month trial and the inability to get a consensus for either continuing or a new trial, or implementing the feature permanently meant it was eventually agreed not to use it any more for the time being. Sure there were proposals to use it for all BLPs etc but these never got off the ground. I personally am a supporter of PC but unless the foundation is willing to do something from the top and all the evidence suggests they're not, I don't think there's much point poking that bear for at least a year from the closure of the previous RFC. Nil Einne (talk) 13:22, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Cerajota, that's a perfectly reasonable option. imo the biggest problem with protection levels is that there is no explanation on the particular article as to how one requests a change. (I've seen the instructions and template on some fully-protected articles, but never semi-protected ones. Why that isn't part of the protection action itself is beyond me.) Example: BLP Hamid Karzai. He's in the news fairly often, readers would benefit from links to extended media coverage, and the article has (supposedly) 187 watchers. I don't want you to run over and address the pending request, as I want to see how long it takes before someone NOT reading this will take care of it. imo, your concept of a flagged revision would be addressed sooner. If something isn't working, we need to fix it. (Note: it's good to at least occasionally edit Wikipedia as an IP to find out what new people run into.) 99.50.188.136 (talk) 16:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Voicing a concern that administrator misconduct results in the revdelete of criticism
Mr Wales, administrator misconduct has now reached such proportions that they revdelete all criticism. Wikipedia is now becoming like Ceausescu's Romania, where even typewriters were banned (or if they weren't you needed a government licence to own one). There is a discussion at meta:User talk:Tobias Conradi where the administrators seem to wield less power. 82.35.193.46 (talk) 09:35, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Uh you're linking to a page/case that is 4-5 years old Nil Einne (talk) 13:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- The criticism is false and ludicrous. But anon if you have a specific example of rev deletion of anything simply for being criticism, you may tell me about it here, under my protective umbrella.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- This is just another of Vote (X) for Change's IP socks. —DoRD (talk) 15:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Department of Redundancy Department has been watching this thread all day, waiting for Mr Wales to respond. When he does, he blocks me and makes his disparaging comment. This is what I have had to put up with for five years. You should be able to see the discussion on the link now. An earlier disparaging comment of Department of Redundancy Department was this:
- "Wikipedia is no longer the Wikipedia I signed up for in 2005, nor is it the Wikipedia I decided to become an administrator for in 2008. I naively expected that Wikipedia would one day become a valuable, well-respected, very useful online encyclopedia, full of notable information. I thought that the articles would be edited by people with knowledge about the subjects and who could provide quality links and references. I expected that, as the project has a worldwide audience, neutrality would be one of the highest priorities. Well, I was wrong. The vast majority of the “information” on Wikipedia is either non-notable crap, fancruft, or other useless trivia that would never be accepted by a traditional encyclopedia. If I want to read about, for example, Star Trek, I can go to a wiki devoted to everything about the franchise, so why is that crap here?" -- unsigned comment by User:92.27.24.148.
- As a courtesy, I have unblocked User:82.35.193.46 for the sole purpose of participating here briefly, as I did promise safe harbor and a chance to explain what he's talking about.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:35, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- It appears from this [4] that the administrator is happy for me to edit provided I don't post complaints on Community noticeboards. 82.35.193.46 (talk) 21:05, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- No, you have been formally site-banned from Wikipedia. No administrator will be happy to see you edit anywhere. Jimbo has made a special exception here. If you have any real evidence to back up your statements, this is probably the only chance you will get to show it. Looie496 (talk) 21:15, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly. Edit anywhere else, and I won't complain if anyone blocks you. And this isn't a general invitation to join conversations here. You made a specific claim that admins "revdelete all criticism". That's obviously blatantly false, there's tons of criticism every day that is not only not revdeleted but also handled with respect. If you have even one example of the admins you mention on meta rev-deleting something just because it's criticism, then show it please. Otherwise, you may want to rethink your views as being inconsistent with the facts of reality. If you wonder why you've been repeatedly blocked for a long period of time, then you might want to consider how people feel about being compared to murderous tyrants.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- No, you have been formally site-banned from Wikipedia. No administrator will be happy to see you edit anywhere. Jimbo has made a special exception here. If you have any real evidence to back up your statements, this is probably the only chance you will get to show it. Looie496 (talk) 21:15, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- It appears from this [4] that the administrator is happy for me to edit provided I don't post complaints on Community noticeboards. 82.35.193.46 (talk) 21:05, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- This is just another of Vote (X) for Change's IP socks. —DoRD (talk) 15:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- The criticism is false and ludicrous. But anon if you have a specific example of rev deletion of anything simply for being criticism, you may tell me about it here, under my protective umbrella.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:13, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
I have changed this section header to something more unwieldy but less inflamatory Pedro : Chat 21:28, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks, I didn't understand what the OP was complaining about until you changed the title. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:38, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- OK, the sole issue seems to be this question of whether the reason given in the log matches the description of the material which was revdeleted. I can't deal with it right now as I'm not at home and I would need to examine it - there are some posts of mine and some of other people. However, as indicated earlier I don't want to pursue the issue. If people feel they are being compared to murderous tyrants please be assured that the thought never crossed my mind, and I apologise unreservedly for any distress caused. 82.35.193.46 (talk) 22:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
20 million all-language articles by Halloween
UPDATE: Including all other-language Wikipedias, the count of 20 million articles will apparently be reached by Halloween 2011, current count: 63,057,561 articles (all-languages). It seems you were right about the accelerating rate of growth in other languages: instead of mid-November, the latest figures project a count of 20 million articles, combining all languages, by the end of October. To speed-read all those articles, non-stop, at 1 article per minute, 24/7 and 365.25 days per year, would require 38 years, assuming 1-minute fluency in all the 282(?) Wikipedia languages. Separately, English WP growth is on track to reach 4 million articles in June 2012 (+930 per day).
How many printed volumes? Using the size-data which concluded the average article size as 562 words (in January 2010), the count of printed volumes (all languages) would be 8,175:
- {{#expr: 20000000*562 / (1375000) + .5 round 0}} = 8175
That equates to 355 sets of 23-volume encyclopedias, or 40.9 bookracks (each, 10 shelves of 20 volumes). I would hate to be the mailman delivering that encyclopedia to the house! -Wikid77 (talk) 11:08, 21 September 2011 (UTC)