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:::::Have you read the article? Past global warming is omitted implicitly by the definition in the very first sentence where the subject is defined. There's also nothing in the opening paragraphs about prehistoric global warming. There are also clear misrepresentations such as the statement that "Most of the observed temperature increase since the middle of the 20th century was caused by increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases, which results from human activity such as the burning of fossil fuel and deforestation" based on a source that says "Most scientists agree that the warming in recent decades has been caused primarily by human activities that have increased the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere." Including clear misrepresentations, distortions, omissions, and smears against those with unpopular views may be your idea of how encyclopedia building and science is done. It's certainly not mine. [[User:Freakshownerd|Freakshownerd]] ([[User talk:Freakshownerd|talk]]) 19:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
:::::Have you read the article? Past global warming is omitted implicitly by the definition in the very first sentence where the subject is defined. There's also nothing in the opening paragraphs about prehistoric global warming. There are also clear misrepresentations such as the statement that "Most of the observed temperature increase since the middle of the 20th century was caused by increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases, which results from human activity such as the burning of fossil fuel and deforestation" based on a source that says "Most scientists agree that the warming in recent decades has been caused primarily by human activities that have increased the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere." Including clear misrepresentations, distortions, omissions, and smears against those with unpopular views may be your idea of how encyclopedia building and science is done. It's certainly not mine. [[User:Freakshownerd|Freakshownerd]] ([[User talk:Freakshownerd|talk]]) 19:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::OK, so the items in question aren't actually "omitted" - they're just not featured prominently at the top of the lead, where you believe they belong. Also, I don't see the misrepresentation in the sourcing example you cite - certainly there's nothing egregious enough to justify even a fraction of the angry rhetoric that you consistently apply to anything with which you disagree. You might want to take these content disputes to the article talk page. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]''' <sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 19:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
::::::OK, so the items in question aren't actually "omitted" - they're just not featured prominently at the top of the lead, where you believe they belong. Also, I don't see the misrepresentation in the sourcing example you cite - certainly there's nothing egregious enough to justify even a fraction of the angry rhetoric that you consistently apply to anything with which you disagree. You might want to take these content disputes to the article talk page. '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]''' <sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 19:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::No, they're ommitted. They are excluded from the definition provided and the introduction to the subject. So the reader is misinformed. Furthermore, as you seem to have ignored, the article is slanted distortions as even cherry picked sources are misrepresented. It's dishonest. It's an abortion carried out by anti-science bigots. [[User:Freakshownerd|Freakshownerd]] ([[User talk:Freakshownerd|talk]]) 19:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
:::::::No, they're ommitted. They are excluded from the definition provided and the introduction to the subject. So the reader is misinformed. Furthermore, as you seem to have ignored, the article is slanted by distortions, as even cherry picked sources are misrepresented. It's dishonest. It's an abortion carried out by anti-science bigots. It's a shameful and disgusting piece of propaganda that would be more appropriate on Connolley's blog than an encyclopedia. [[User:Freakshownerd|Freakshownerd]] ([[User talk:Freakshownerd|talk]]) 19:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
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::But that may at least answer Jimbo's earlier question: [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=376123139 "Freakshownerd, are you feeling calmer?"] '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]''' <sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 19:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
::But that may at least answer Jimbo's earlier question: [https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=prev&oldid=376123139 "Freakshownerd, are you feeling calmer?"] '''[[User:MastCell|MastCell]]''' <sup>[[User Talk:MastCell|Talk]]</sup> 19:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::I'm not any calmer about the slanderous misrespresentations and smears being included in BLPs. But having brought them to Jimbo's attention and the appropriate noticeboards, I did what I could to get them addressed. If the powers that be here aren't concerned about the problem and stand behind the editors and admins propagandizing Wikipedia's contents, then that's their business (figuratively and in some cases quite literally). [[User:Freakshownerd|Freakshownerd]] ([[User talk:Freakshownerd|talk]]) 19:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
:::I'm not any calmer about the slanderous misrespresentations and smears being included in BLPs. But having brought them to Jimbo's attention and the appropriate noticeboards, I did what I could to get them addressed. If the powers that be here aren't concerned about the problem and stand behind the editors and admins propagandizing Wikipedia's contents, then that's their business (figuratively and in some cases quite literally). [[User:Freakshownerd|Freakshownerd]] ([[User talk:Freakshownerd|talk]]) 19:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:57, 9 August 2010
(Manual archive list) |
Balls. Wikipedia's got 'em.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/us/20100803-wiki-LetterToLarson.pdf This rocks. --*Kat* (talk) 18:39, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Damn Straight. Cwill151 (talk) 03:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well I'm sure that letter was fun for Godwin to write, especially knowing it would end up in the news and across Wikipedia. But I think he's showboating and im not sure thats the best thing for WMF-- the letter rather has the tone of an AfD battle and is not likely to bring about resolution to this controversy. Why embarass the Feds into filing suit and needlessly waste WMF funds to litigate? Because it feels good? Well, yeah, but that may not be a sound business strategy. Ratcheting up the heat rarely results in a potential litigant backing down and dropping the issue. Granted, the Feds were petty in their request. Both sides have now painted themselves in a corner with threats of lawsuits that they may feel they have to follow through on to save face publicly Minor4th 04:44, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- So we should have complied, in your opinion? That's a matter of principle, we can't tolerate nonsensical requests of this kind, regardless of who files them. --Cyclopiatalk 16:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- It was such a ridiculous request (well, more like a demand, really) to begin with. While I would like to assume good faith about things outside WP as well...they're the freaking FBI. The chance that they didn't know that the laws they were citing didn't apply are pretty much nil. They just wanted to scare WMF to take down the seal, when they have no legal requirement to do so. And if they try and take it to court, they're just going to embarrass themselves, regardless of the outcome, because of it being such an asinine demand. SilverserenC 16:23, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- So we should have complied, in your opinion? That's a matter of principle, we can't tolerate nonsensical requests of this kind, regardless of who files them. --Cyclopiatalk 16:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- The problem is you're taking Godwin's interpretation as accurate and assuming he just educated the FBI lawyers on the law. That's not exactly what happened. In fact, the law does apply. Godwin cited "the leading case" interpreting the statute (18 USC 701), but his interpretation is exactly opposite of what the case says -- particularly on the principle of ejusdem generis. He should have read the whole case carefully, and not just the headnotes - as that is what it appears has happened. Your assumption of good faith should have been that the FBI lawyers do in fact know the laws they are citing to. The fact of the matter is it would not be real difficult for the FBI to get a restraining order to require removal of seal even on a temporary basis. They are more likely to do something like that after receiving this letter from Godwin. Minor4th 17:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think Minor4th ever said anything about complying with the FBI's request - he's a lawyer and chooses his words carefully. I think it has more to do with the tone of the letter and the feeling that it may not have been the best strategy to accomplish the desired result, which was to tell the FBI to take a hike without causing a lot of drama in the process. GregJackP Boomer! 16:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, Minor to my knowledge is a legal expert and when he commented I did see his point..at those levels of importance and legality and lawsuits it is not a who has the big balls issue . Individual users should be more aware of their own personal legal responsibilities as they edit wikipedia and consider they may well require at some point their own 500 dollar an hour lawyer. Off2riorob (talk) 16:41, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think Minor4th ever said anything about complying with the FBI's request - he's a lawyer and chooses his words carefully. I think it has more to do with the tone of the letter and the feeling that it may not have been the best strategy to accomplish the desired result, which was to tell the FBI to take a hike without causing a lot of drama in the process. GregJackP Boomer! 16:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- 'Meekly complying' and 'writing a mocking, smartass refusal' weren't actually the only two options here. It would have been quite easy to write a classy, courteous, civil, and still utterly devastating legal smackdown that doesn't make the project look like a bunch sarcastic know-it-all teenagers. The letter, as written, goes out of its way to make enemies. While it may have been very satisfying to write, it probably also means that the FBI will be unlikely to cut us any slack on any real issues which might arise in the future. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but the fact of the matter was that the feds were misrepresenting the law and the legal guys let them know that they knew it. The letter wont make us friends at the FBI, but its pretty clear that they aint friends anyway.Thelmadatter (talk) 16:47, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- TenOfAllTrades is right. Why piss off the Feds if you don't have to? How well did that work for Martha Stewart? There are much more subtle snide and veiled ways to tell the Feds that they are idiots - ask anyone in the Climate Change area (on any side - both have experts in snide, veiled remarks). In any event, until a judge tells us otherwise, we should leave the image up. Another point is the difference in the type of law that Godwin practices (primarily in-house counsel - solicitor for you Brits) and Minor4th (litigator - barrister for the Brits). While both are important, I think I would go with what a litigator thinks if it involves a potential lawsuit.GregJackP Boomer! 17:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- @TOAT -- Precisely so.
- TenOfAllTrades is right. Why piss off the Feds if you don't have to? How well did that work for Martha Stewart? There are much more subtle snide and veiled ways to tell the Feds that they are idiots - ask anyone in the Climate Change area (on any side - both have experts in snide, veiled remarks). In any event, until a judge tells us otherwise, we should leave the image up. Another point is the difference in the type of law that Godwin practices (primarily in-house counsel - solicitor for you Brits) and Minor4th (litigator - barrister for the Brits). While both are important, I think I would go with what a litigator thinks if it involves a potential lawsuit.GregJackP Boomer! 17:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- As a taxpayer, I'll be pretty annoyed at the feds if they waste our money and tie up our courts with this nonsense. There are serious criminals who need to be dealt with. The logo on Wikipedia is not only legal, it's harmless. Whoever has been hired by the FBI to pursue this matter ought to be fired for egregious waste of taxpayer money. Jehochman Talk 18:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- I do wonder why they singled out wikipedia. The letter mentions that the seal appears on brittanica also. So I wonder if Britannica submitted a request for permission to use the seal or if they also got a letter from the Feds. As far as wsstong tax dollars -- its the goverment, youre not expecting efficiency are you?Minor4th 21:43, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is providing a high quality SVG representation of the seal, while, as far as I know, Brittanica is not. I'm not saying that the FBI is right that it's illegal for us to display the seal, but I also don't think it's fair to compare our use of it to almost every other use of it on the web. The FBI is certainly correct that our representation would be very helpful to someone who is trying to pass themselves off as FBI when they're not. Has anyone actually applied for the proper permissions to use the seal? It's certainly worth a shot, though I'm not sure at this point that it's likely to be granted. Buddy431 (talk) 02:23, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know if it's an SVG file, but Encyclopedia Britannica actually does have a pretty high-quality image of the seal, as seen here (go to the pane of videos and pictures on the left, scroll down to the seal and click) and a huge one here. Unless EB really did get permission from the FBI to display it that way, I don't see much difference. 71.113.22.219 (talk) 03:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
- In truth, the FBI does this a lot. While there is no law stating that the seal cannot be used if it is for informative and educational purposes, they still try and get places to take it down. I remember cases involving them and other websites. They've been doing this for years. In terms of matters like this, I don't really have any respect for them anymore. SilverserenC 03:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
- A splendid piece of tact and diplomacy by Mike Godwin, and while I'm grateful for the free legal advice from Minor4th, it seems likely that Mike knows exactly what he's doing. Any court case on this would be fascinating. . . dave souza, talk 16:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
- I disagree - he was a little confrontational, and Minor4th was right. I read the case after he posted it, and it does look like Mike pulled it from the headnote (if he uses Lexis) or the keycite (if Westlaw). The body of the opinion doesn't support his argument. You are right, it would be fascinating - and expensive. Not sure it is worth it, but Jimbo and the board get to make those decisions. :D GregJackP Boomer! 04:51, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- A splendid piece of tact and diplomacy by Mike Godwin, and while I'm grateful for the free legal advice from Minor4th, it seems likely that Mike knows exactly what he's doing. Any court case on this would be fascinating. . . dave souza, talk 16:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
- In truth, the FBI does this a lot. While there is no law stating that the seal cannot be used if it is for informative and educational purposes, they still try and get places to take it down. I remember cases involving them and other websites. They've been doing this for years. In terms of matters like this, I don't really have any respect for them anymore. SilverserenC 03:57, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know if it's an SVG file, but Encyclopedia Britannica actually does have a pretty high-quality image of the seal, as seen here (go to the pane of videos and pictures on the left, scroll down to the seal and click) and a huge one here. Unless EB really did get permission from the FBI to display it that way, I don't see much difference. 71.113.22.219 (talk) 03:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is providing a high quality SVG representation of the seal, while, as far as I know, Brittanica is not. I'm not saying that the FBI is right that it's illegal for us to display the seal, but I also don't think it's fair to compare our use of it to almost every other use of it on the web. The FBI is certainly correct that our representation would be very helpful to someone who is trying to pass themselves off as FBI when they're not. Has anyone actually applied for the proper permissions to use the seal? It's certainly worth a shot, though I'm not sure at this point that it's likely to be granted. Buddy431 (talk) 02:23, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
- @dave souza -- I was not giving legal advice, I was commenting on the merits of each argument. Do you have any meaningful rationale for your conclusion that Godwin knows exactly what he's doing and by logical extension, that the FBI lawyers do not know what they're doing? Any court case on this would be mundane and routine, not fascinating. This is something that has very rarely been litigated because it's just unnecessary to escalate a conflict over an official seal to that point. Why not simply make the requisite request for permission to use the seal? I guess some folks just love conflict more than results. Minor4th 13:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- I must disagree with you there, Minor4th. We should not ask permission to do something that we have both common-sense and legal grounds to do, because it leaves us stuck if they say "No". What do we say then? "We weren't really asking in good faith; we're going to ignore you and do it anyway"? That doesn't win us any more friends than Mike's original obnoxious letter. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:04, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- @Silverseren -- Yes, this is unfortunately not uncommon for the Feds to flex their authority over minutiae. It is distasteful I agree. Minor4th 13:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- @dave souza -- I was not giving legal advice, I was commenting on the merits of each argument. Do you have any meaningful rationale for your conclusion that Godwin knows exactly what he's doing and by logical extension, that the FBI lawyers do not know what they're doing? Any court case on this would be mundane and routine, not fascinating. This is something that has very rarely been litigated because it's just unnecessary to escalate a conflict over an official seal to that point. Why not simply make the requisite request for permission to use the seal? I guess some folks just love conflict more than results. Minor4th 13:07, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- Wikileaks hosts a TSA manual, in which they redacted various information in a .pdf by overlaying it with a separate black layer, »nuck, nuck«... [1] I was thinking the stuff on pages 4-23 to 4-26 might make good Commons uploads. ;) I mean, the CIA should thank us. If no one knows what their badge looks like how can we tell it's not a joke? Wnt (talk) 04:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
"Why not simply make the requisite request for permission to use the seal". Any idea how many such 'restricted' elements there are in the federal government ? Having to write 2000 or so letters to ask for permission to document all the seals, insignia and medals that we have articles on, is a waste of time on our editors. And in my opinion, doing so while continuing to ignore the same laws in all the other countries in the world is a sham, so that's another 100000 letters for you. I consider this "moderate risk taking" for the benefit of the Encyclopedia. I fully support it. We are here to build an encyclopedia, not to satisfy the archaic whims of the US government. If they force us, ok, they force us, but that will not go over nicely in the media. It will also leave them as the only agency without a seal in this Encyclopedia. With a nice 'Removed on demand of the FBI pdflink' in their infobox. We lose, they lose. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 14:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
The Seal of the Federal Bureau of Investigation has been nominated for DYK. Any admin want to volunteer and put it in the queue? Marcus Qwertyus 15:32, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't know that this is the right place, but having seen the thread, I am compelled to respond. Upon my first read of the incident, my reaction was that it was a missed opportunity. Those are the worst because they don't generally re-present themselves. Wikipedia had the chance to preserve knowledge, without propagating arrogance. "Knowledge is not arrogant, knowledge is powerful" my quote WP:OR. As a side note and worthy of mention, while Wikipedia is very 1st amendment savvy, as a foundation you are far more in compliance with and concerned about issues of copyright, an attribute, while equally far less concerned and/or compliant with issues of trademark, a liability. And of course, all of this is in my opinion. My76Strat 03:06, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- This is neither a copyright nor a trademark issue. Neither applies to the seal. 18 U.S.C. 701 is a criminal statute, prohibiting the use of certain insignia of a law enforcement agency. I think it is a stretch on the part of the F.B.I., but I also think that Godwin misread the case (or only read the headnotes), because it doesn't say what he indicated it did in the letter. GregJackP Boomer! 04:12, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- @My76Strat, this is easily explained by the fact that copyright has been so abuse as a legal instrument, that we actually NEED to protect ourselves from it, while the other laws are almost never used in cases of non-commercial and educational usages of material. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 12:55, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for that comment; I understand your rational, and accept its validity. My initial observation and decision to include it as a side-note was to highlight what I perceived as misaligned values. Other examples can be produced, but let this suffice to illustrate that I believe the foundation missed a valuable opportunity to favorably promote itself from a righteous perspective, in favor of arrogance, most likely spawned by a prevalence of misaligned values which seems ubiquitous. My76Strat 21:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- This is neither a copyright nor a trademark issue. Neither applies to the seal. 18 U.S.C. 701 is a criminal statute, prohibiting the use of certain insignia of a law enforcement agency. I think it is a stretch on the part of the F.B.I., but I also think that Godwin misread the case (or only read the headnotes), because it doesn't say what he indicated it did in the letter. GregJackP Boomer! 04:12, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
WikiLeaks has balls too! Count Iblis (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
For lolcats
FYI, a replacement image has already been proposed in case we are made to remove it. I see an internet meme coming :D —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Came across a news article regarding you which is relevant to an ongoing discussion
Hi Jimbo, Happy Birthday! :)
We are having a spirited discussion over at RSN regarding FOX news. While investigating the topic I came across this techcrunch article regarding you and thought you might have some thoughts to share on the matter. Best Regards, Unomi (talk) 08:59, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Ugh, I think I better stay out of it this time around. It is my birthday today, after all. Remind me in a few days to talk about Churchill and the UFOs story - I think it is a great example of how the media - across the board - are in a pretty sad state these days. Someone should buy me a newspaper to run, because I can hardly tolerate any of the lack of objectivity and reason that's going on these days.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:39, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well then, you should be proud of HJ Mitchell and the work done at WP:ITN, it's objectivity at it's maximum and credible information to boot. It is, in a sense, a "newspaper" that you already "run" :). Oh... and Happy Birthday Jimbo! Cwill151 (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- I fully agree with your assessment. Journalism today is reminiscent of journalism in the 1700s, and is nothing like I was taught. I wish I could afford to buy you a newspaper to run, but all I can offer Is this; Happy birthday! Zaereth (talk) 20:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- *cough* Wikinews *cough* Fences&Windows 17:31, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
administrative misjudgement
There are over a thousand administrators. However, only one is constantly the butt of complaints on ANI and he is Toddst1. Granted some complaints are not valid but when you have an outlying person, it must be a reason. Maybe he is abrasive. Maybe his judgement is bad.
In my case, he didn't like a banner on my talk page so he complained to me about it. He then closed an ANI post about my tag (as an involved party he should not be deciding on things involving himself) and also gave me an inappropriate (false accusation) warning about being uncivil and attacking others. That's like when the police beat up an innocent man then claim he beat them (until a video shows otherwise). Or like one person being the plaintiff, judge, and executioner.
Toddst1 should be on notice that his administrative powers will be stripped if he constantly gets complaints while other administrators do not have this problem. Either he is guilty or really rubs lots of people the wrong way, more than any other admin. Even you don't get this many complaints and you are the lightning rod of Wikipedia. Disclaimer: I am just letting you know this (like a cc in a business e-mail) but do not request any action - any action is per your descretion.RIPGC (talk) 03:08, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Oh this'll go well... HalfShadow 03:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Since RIPGC shopped this here from AN/I, Jimbo might want to take a look at that discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:17, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Any time a user takes a trivial complaint to Jimbo, the issue immediately moves to hilarious. elektrikSHOOS 03:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Should we throw popcorn at him now, or wait until after the failsplosion? HalfShadow 03:21, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- WP:FOOTBALLPLAYERWHOSHALLNOTBENAMED N419BH 03:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- That link is hilarious given the history behind it! If only every complaint brought to Jimbo could have such humor injected into it, I'm pretty sure the people complaining would relax a bit. Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 03:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- For the record, that was originally my idea, after I saw an account identify himself as Keegscee. SarekOfVulcan created the redirect. I agree; a little sense of humor would go a long way sometimes. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話す下さい) 02:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- That link is hilarious given the history behind it! If only every complaint brought to Jimbo could have such humor injected into it, I'm pretty sure the people complaining would relax a bit. Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 03:40, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- WP:FOOTBALLPLAYERWHOSHALLNOTBENAMED N419BH 03:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Should we throw popcorn at him now, or wait until after the failsplosion? HalfShadow 03:21, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Any time a user takes a trivial complaint to Jimbo, the issue immediately moves to hilarious. elektrikSHOOS 03:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Since RIPGC shopped this here from AN/I, Jimbo might want to take a look at that discussion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:17, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
According to User:Beyond My Ken, Ks0stm is being disruptive by adding that box and should be blocked. Toddst1 also agrees that adding such box will result in a block...in this case of Ks0stm RIPGC (talk) 03:47, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Huh? Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 04:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- You know, I think that's the first time a user has even suggested that I be blocked...I never thought the first time would be for something so trivial as my signature (at least I think that's what he meant?) Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 05:03, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- @RIPGC. Please don't speak for me. I find that banner disruptive, and always have. I went to your talk page to read the discussions there and the damn banner was on the top of the page. Forgetting momentarily what the subject of your entry at AN/I was, I clicked on it thinking I had a message, and was sent to your talk page. Ha ha, very funny joke, but you manage to waste my time, which, even if it's only a couple of second, is not yours to waste. Get rid of the damn banner, and don't put words into my mouth again, please. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
I find the discussion from WP:AN/I is rapidly spilling onto here as well. Let's keep it over there. This page, after all, is for Jimbo's amusement only, and I really, really doubt he'll respond to it at all. Or, if he does, it certainly wouldn't be in the way that User:RIPGC is clearly expecting him to. elektrikSHOOS 04:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
I have blocked RIPGC as a disruptive sockpuppet of a banned user, confirmed by Checkuser. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Your private input into FBI dispute may be beneficial
The FBI seal problem may escalate more in a few days. This is notice to you, in case you are interested.
In the Did You Know section http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Did_you_know#Articles_created.2Fexpanded_on_August_3 an article about the seal is making its way to the main page. Note that when it appears, a picture of the seal will appear, not just text. Many DYK hooks are just text, but this is a text and a seal.
You may wish to discuss with Mike Godwin what to do. Some lawyers purposely try to create test cases and want lawsuits and a whole lot of publicity. If this is the strategy, some lawyers will want the seal to be published online on the main page. Other lawyers advocate quiet diplomacy. They may publically insist they have the right to publish the seal but quietly try not to thumb their noses at the FBI and try to poke them in the eye. Those lawyers might have the DYK hook but not have the picture. Still other lawyers would want to do some action, but not have a public discussion about it.
I will let you decide with Mike Godwin what to do. If you want to have the hook but not the picture but do it in a low keyed way, you could always e-mail a bureaucrat and ask them to modify the hook (or ask one of the DYK regulars).
As I said, I will leave strategy up to you, whether you want to make the FBI dispute high profile or low keyed. Good luck. I mention this only to give you the heads up and do the right thing for Wikipedia. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 16:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- I second comments made by Suomi Finland both here and at the DYK suggestion with the reservation that I would like to see less privacy regarding any response. By virtue of the recent comments to this talk page, it is obvious users are interested in the founders views in this matter. Wikipedia is a community at the user level and my share of the proxy is being misrepresented by both the initial response, and now the direction this implies we perhaps want to seek. My76Strat 19:37, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- I hope this is helpful in some small way.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Would it be okay if we just not use the image with the DYK submission and just use the text? SilverserenC 21:07, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Do what you want in your own name and be prepared to pay your own 500 dollar an hour lawyers, don't big yourself up using the foundation. Off2riorob (talk) 21:19, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Non-free images cannot be used in DYKs, so this should not arise, even if it is considered a worthy article to mention there. Rodhullandemu 16:41, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- More significantly, it's not a new article or one expanded simply to improve the 'pedia, and pushing it into DYK to get it on the front page is rather blatantly pointy. The FBI have been given a firm response, it's up to them if they want to take it further and we don't need to go out of our way to provoke them. Best to let it be and await developments rather than forcing the pace. . dave souza, talk 22:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Do what you want in your own name and be prepared to pay your own 500 dollar an hour lawyers, don't big yourself up using the foundation. Off2riorob (talk) 21:19, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- Would it be okay if we just not use the image with the DYK submission and just use the text? SilverserenC 21:07, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
- I hope this is helpful in some small way.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:58, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
Do we have editorial independence any more?
Jimbo, I'm stunned and dismayed by your intervention on T:TDYK regarding Seal of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which I recently expanded. You make it very clear that your objection is solely that "it is clearly politically provocative". Other editors have raised all kind of accusations above of bad faith and POINTy behaviour. Such accusations are nonsense - I took a stub article that was little more than a copy-and-paste of the FBI website's description of the seal [2] and made it into a full-length article that provides far more information than the FBI itself does [3]. I note that nobody has raised any objections to the content of the article or the proposed DYK hook. The article and hook both meet all the criteria for inclusion on DYK.
Personally, if I was in your shoes, I would be hailing this as an example of how Wikipedia can add value - we now have the most comprehensive, detailed and best-researched article on the FBI seal published anywhere. It's far more informative than anything the FBI itself has published. This should surely be applauded, not criticised.
I have no particular preferences regarding the seal and I've not argued for or against its retention on Wikipedia. I don't mind whether or not it's displayed on the home page along with the DYK item. I've said so in the DYK discussion. However, I think it's totally inappropriate for you (or anyone else for that matter, but especially you, considering your role) to argue against a DYK nomination for purely political reasons. I was under the impression that the role of the WMF was – in part at least – to insulate Wikipedia against political pressures and ensure that we have editorial independence. Now it seems you want to influence editorial decisions because they are politically inconvenient (to whom? you? the Foundation? the US Government?). There's no support whatsoever in Wikipedia's policies, as I think you implicitly acknowledge, for external political considerations to dictate what we do editorially.
That is a very dangerous road to start down. It raises the question of whether we do in fact have editorial independence. If you want us to suppress editorial decisions because you are concerned about political implication then that suggests that we are not in fact editorially independent after all. I hope you reconsider your decision to oppose the DYK. In particular, I request that you clarify whether you oppose the DYK nomination outright, or are willing to accept it if it is not accompanied by the image of the seal.
Given the issues that this raises, I hope you will also clarify whether or not we editors can write articles without facing politically motivated interventions in the future. I don't want to be in a situation where we have to hold back because an article is politically inconvenient to someone. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Larry Sanger interview - epistemic egalitarianism
Here - and well worth reading. I was particularly interested in this bit:
- Why did you feel so strongly about involving experts [on Citizendium]?
- Because of the complete disregard for expert opinion among a group of amateurs working on a subject [on Wikipedia], and in particular because of their tendency to openly express contempt for experts. There was this attitude that experts should be disqualified [from participating] by the very fact that they had published on the subject—that because they had published, they were therefore biased. That frustrated me very much, to see that happening over and over again: experts essentially being driven away by people who didn't have any respect for those who make it their lives' work to know things.
- Where do you think that contempt for expertise comes from? It's seems odd to be committed to a project that's all about sharing knowledge, yet dismiss those who've worked so hard to acquire it.
- There's a whole worldview that's shared by many programmers — although not all of them, of course — and by many young intellectuals that I characterize as "epistemic egalitarianism." They're greatly offended by the idea that anyone might be regarded as more reliable on a given topic than everyone else. They feel that for everything to be as fair as possible and equal as possible, the only thing that ought to matter is the content [of a claim] itself, not its source.
I think he's absolutely right on this point. "Epistemic egalitarianism" is a real problem on Wikipedia and it seems to be getting worse. One of the things that came across strongly for me in the recent collaboration with the British Museum, in which I participated, is how much we were reliant on expert sources (to the point of meeting and directly involving the experts in the writing of articles). Fortunately archaeology is largely free of non-expert sources that oppose the expert viewpoint, so we were pretty much free to focus on the views of the experts. However, there's a real and worrying trend in other subject areas of editors openly rejecting expert views and promoting the claims of non-experts, demanding that they be used to "balance" or refute an expert consensus. We've even seen WP:UNDUE being questioned; if it's weakened or removed, that really would open the floodgates for all kinds of pseudoscientific and pseudohistorical gibberish being added to articles. There are of course real-world consequences of epistemic egalitarianism - consider the vaccine controversy and the needless deaths and injuries that have been caused by parental confusion resulting from the media's scandalous promotion of non-expert claims about vaccine safety. I'd be interested to know where you see the line being drawn on the treatment of expert vs non-expert views on academic issues. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:13, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Chris, how do we decide who's an expert and who isn't? Whose views are standard and whose diverge significantly from the norm? The other problem is available time of experts in a particular field - most scientists I've found to be extremely time-poor. FWIW I thought we'd done an okay job in medical articles of keeping them balanced (??) Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:26, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I think Sanger is dead wrong about the ideas and ideals of the community. Expertise is generally welcomed. Of course it is fine for people to discuss and debate the precise limits of policies like WP:UNDUE - how could it be otherwise? That people are debating it, or that people with fringe views show up and cause trouble, is not evidence for a bias against expertise - it is rather evidence of a commitment to taking ideas seriously. Avoidance of fallacious appeals to authority is not epistemic egalitarianism. Indeed, to those who understand the deep roots of both understand that both errors stem from the same core.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Addendum: - Even the example you give, ChrisO, is one that I think we can be proud about: "A vaccine controversy is a dispute over the morality, ethics, effectiveness, or safety of vaccination. The medical and scientific evidence is that the benefits of preventing suffering and death from infectious diseases outweigh rare adverse effects of immunization.[1][2] Since vaccination began in the late 18th century, opponents have claimed that vaccines do not work, that they are or may be dangerous, that individuals should rely on personal hygiene instead, or that mandatory vaccinations violate individual rights or religious principles.[3] And since then, successful campaigns against vaccination have resulted in unnecessary injuries and mass deaths.[4]" We are not giving any credence at all to crackpot opinion there. As far as I know, that article's lede reflects very much the consensus of expert opinion.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- The entire Vaccine controversy article was (when I last read it 3 or 4 months ago) extremely rigorous and evidence-based. Anthony (talk) 09:45, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying vaccine controversy is a bad article, I'm saying that the vaccine controversy - the thing the article is about, not the article itself - is an example of Sanger's epistemic egalitarianism in action. The media gives the views of anti-vaccine cranks (and cranks in many other fields) far too much prominence and effectively treats their views as being of equal value to those of experts. This is a mistake we must not make. I think we get it mostly right at the moment, but there's constant pressure from advocates of fringe viewpoints to give their views much more prominence. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, it's widely understood that many vaccines were rather toxic with dangerous levels of mercury, for example. So a push for safer vaccines has been useful and only a fanatic would argue that all vaccines are good and that they should all be administered without caution of measure. Freakshownerd (talk) 19:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I think there's a misunderstanding here. I'm not saying vaccine controversy is a bad article, I'm saying that the vaccine controversy - the thing the article is about, not the article itself - is an example of Sanger's epistemic egalitarianism in action. The media gives the views of anti-vaccine cranks (and cranks in many other fields) far too much prominence and effectively treats their views as being of equal value to those of experts. This is a mistake we must not make. I think we get it mostly right at the moment, but there's constant pressure from advocates of fringe viewpoints to give their views much more prominence. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yup. Vaccine controversy as a comparison is a perfect example of how far down the toilet certain Climate Change articles have been dragged by people who are writing from their deeply set POV, rather than from the neutral POV. It never ceases to amaze me that people think Jimbo of all people does not know what he is talking about regarding NPOV. MickMacNee (talk) 11:18, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Looking at a draft article like Citizendium's "History of biology", it seems to me that they have problems — not finishing a good draft, extensive deletions, and above all, despite the potential involvement of experts, they've stuck to designing that article according to a Eurocentric fairy tale where the Greeks and Romans invent civilization, then it's lost, then it mysteriously comes back again — without recognizing the fundamental importance of Mesopotamia, Egypt, Asia Minor, India, etc. in developing medicine over thousands of years, nor that great Roman physicians like Dioscorides actually came from Turkey, and the greatest Roman library was in Egypt, nor that the great Islamic physicians preserved and continued the art during Europe's Dark Ages, nor that Paracelsus and other European physicians "restored civilization" by learning from that source.
- That said, I can see some merit to setting up an OTRS-like system where Wikipedians could register advanced credentials (PhD, professorship, and so on) and some cute template that they could use in talk page edits and edit summaries. Since experts are often reluctant to put their name to anything but an all-out effort, Wikipedia might encourage involvement by certifying these credentials but making them viewable labeled with only the Wikipedia pseudonym if the editor requests. While scientists may be busy with other things, you'll find if you look that a lot of people tend to fall out of the field, or are removed from significant research, and are potential contributors. Wnt (talk) 12:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I have encountered issues where the COI label has been used to prevent expert editors from contributing. I have also seen that this can lead to editors leaving and never to return after these disputes. I, personally, try to encourage COI declarations from all parties in such disputes and to point out that COI is not a reason to dismiss contributions out of hand. If an editor is an expert in the field (EIF), involved in research or works in the field (WIF) then COI, as used in its broadest definition, is almost definitely going to exist. This is a problem which needs to be addressed by the Wikipedia community to ensure that editors are not scared off from joining in to support the inclusion of material by "COI" editors whose edits are shown to be NPOV and factual.
- It is my experience that if you ask, for example, a group of astronomers "What is the structure of the Universe?" you will get a much different answer than asking "What are the theories of the structure of the Universe?" as the first may result in long discussion and even hair pulling as each tries to prove the higher validity of their own particular theory. Asking the second results in a list of possibles that you can judge for yourself.
- To me it seems Mr Sanger is eating some sour grapes and trying to show that citizendium is "more scholarly" than Wikipedia. This is simply not realistic. There are many experts who contribute, there are many that keep an eye on articles and police the edits. It is important that we do not lose that facility though and work out a way to encourage COI to be separated from "WIF". It is, of course, possible to have edit wars from even EIF editors and we have policy to guide these disputes which really causes me no concern apart from the possible misuses where one EIF who has not themselves declared COI points the COI finger at another who has.
- Chaosdruid (talk) 12:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- There is no issue here. Existing policy covers all of the above. The one instance I have seen where an editor tried to exclude another solely because the other worked in the field, was laughed off the COI noticeboard. Anthony (talk) 13:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I appreciate that you may not have encountered this problem however that does not mean that it does not exist. The problem is an issue where those disputes do not make it to the COI boards whether due to inexperience in Wikipolicy or a feeling of being mobbed and the knee-jerk reaction of not-bothering-to-come-back once feelings that their mobbers are in some way representative of Wikipedia editors as a whole occurs. Biting newbies exists for a reason and if they are experts and accused of COI which prevents NPOV factual edits that sort of mobbing behaviour is classic biting. Chaosdruid (talk) 14:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- There is no issue here. Existing policy covers all of the above. The one instance I have seen where an editor tried to exclude another solely because the other worked in the field, was laughed off the COI noticeboard. Anthony (talk) 13:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
I think that while a problem does exist, this does not manifest itself in the content of articles. The community is able to resist the pressure to let in anti-science opinions. But this pressure is not dealt with efficiently due to the fact that the Wiki-policies give too much room for arguing the anti-science POV. This can sometimes cause irritation, leading to problematic behavior on both sides, sometimes ending in administrative intervention and ArbCom cases. Count Iblis (talk) 15:04, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- "Anti-science" is hardly the real problem anyway. It is expertise in the humanities (history, literature, etc.) and social-sciences (sociology, anthropology, psychology, etc.) that most often has noses thumbed at it. This is not only true in Wikipedia of course, but in mass culture more generally. However, as an encyclopedia we should not be reflecting the selective anti-intellectualism of the blog sphere or even the mass media. I say selective, because out there, as well as in here, people have a very ambivalent relationship to scholarship. When it aids their POV it becomes the gold standard for the topic in question but when it does not nose thumbing commences. What I see constant disrespect for is not scholarship and expertise generally speaking but scholarly consensus when it doesn't fit an editor's POV. See for instance the current fiasco surrounding the Historicity of Jesus and the Christ-myth theory. Of course the authority of scholarship and expertise is eroded on a more general level every time someone plays this selective respect game.Griswaldo (talk) 15:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
The idea that content should trump expertise is very appealing. However, the price to be paid is that discussion of a topic must be orchestrated to facilitate useful discussion and quash disruption. When rancor and rhetoric are eliminated, reasonable people will agree, with the exceptions of religion and politics. Although there are guidelines on WP aimed in this direction they are constantly ignored or misused by rank and file, largely because administrators observing application of the guidelines don't understand that administrators are there to catalyze discussion, not to enforce agreement. The administrators try to identify the "correct" argument and enforce it, when they normally have no idea of what is going on and are simply taking the most popular or the most plausible stance as the right one. In any event, the "expert" may be a minority voice, and the "expert's insistence" may annoy other editors. That annoyance is not a basis for administrator action except to maintain civility and keep discussion on the subject. Administrators simply cannot tell whether the "expert" is truly authoritative. Their job is to stand back and referee (that is, keep down squalor and rhetorical devices), not to pretend to be judges, and let the argument (that is, sensible discussion) proceed to consensus in its own good time. Content will trump expertise in the right environment, but WP is far from arranging that environment. Brews ohare (talk) 17:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- This is rather topical, coming at a time when the arbs are reviewing demands that a subject expert should be topic banned for alleged incivility, and indeed whether a similar restriction is to be applied to an alleged "faction" which seems to include all those who think the overwhelming majority expert view on the science of the topic should be given more weight than fringe views which have significant political support. As ever, the arguments are more complex and nuanced than that, and the outcome will be fascinating. However, Citizendium's draft "History of biology" does indeed show the difficulties of trying to confine participation to experts: the as yet unwritten section on How Darwinism evolved into multiple species of neo-Darwinism jumped out at me as a very odd heading. So, I had a look at the bio of Darwin, which is essentially a 3 and a half year old clone of our article, lacking some valuable expert input we've had. An added section on Darwin's health gives prominent mention to homeopathy, some of which was added by an expert who used to contribute here, but doesn't seem to have been active this year.[4] Interestingly, an expert editor who toned it down a bit has qualifications in chiropractic and in acupuncture. So, the Citizendium approach doesn't exactly guarantee mainstream expertise. In my own view, the Wikipedia process tends eventually to lead to a good balance provided we show minority views as minority views, and make due reference to majority expert views, with the support of the established policies. Of course, that might change. . . dave souza, talk 17:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Incivility is a problem and must be dealt with. However, the claims by a lynch mob that doesn't like to reason or stay on topic, but wants to quash the opposition as "uncivil" is another matter. I am personally unconvinced that administrators have the savvy (that's unkind, they just don't dig into it enough) to tell the difference; it's a crap shoot. Brews ohare (talk) 18:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Incivility is a problem and must be dealt with. However, the claims by a lynch mob that doesn't like to reason or stay on topic, but wants to quash the opposition as "uncivil" is another matter. I am personally unconvinced that administrators have the savvy (that's unkind, they just don't dig into it enough) to tell the difference; it's a crap shoot. Brews ohare (talk) 18:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Has Arbcom acted yet to rein in the POV pushing fanatics of the Climate Cabal, who have clear COIs and hold Wikipedia's NPOV policy in disdain and want only their personal views represented? What's taking so long? Or has ignorance of dissent become a core value at Wikipedia? Maybe a new motto could be adopted: "Wikipedia: where the cabal with the most members wins and everyone else loses". Freakshownerd (talk) 18:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- No decision yet. Climate science is, of course, a topic area under very severe pressure from advocates of pseudoscientific and fringe POVs. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:58, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Fringe POVs? Like acknowledging past warming periods or the frequency of errors in the predictions produced by the climate modelers or conflicts of interest among those advocating for "alternative energy" sources? The Global Warming article is a joke. It's a totally unserious advocacy piece that's grossly distorted, slanted, and unscientific. Freakshownerd (talk) 19:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- When did you last read the articles you're complaining about? Previous warm periods are "acknowledged" and discussed in Global warming#Temperature changes and temperature record, as well as a host of specific articles like Medieval Warm Period. The uncertainty inherent in climate modeling is described in the lead of global warming, and elaborated upon in Global warming#Climate models and global climate model. I'm not sure which particular conflict-of-interest allegations you're referring to. If they're covered in serious, reputable sources (as opposed to the partisan blogosphere) then I feel sure we cover them here. Actually, even if they're confined to the partisan blogosphere, I would bet we cover them here - because that's where the bar is right now. In any case, it's not clear to me that your complaints are informed by actual familiarity with the articles in question. MastCell Talk 19:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Have you read the article? Past global warming is omitted implicitly by the definition in the very first sentence where the subject is defined. There's also nothing in the opening paragraphs about prehistoric global warming. There are also clear misrepresentations such as the statement that "Most of the observed temperature increase since the middle of the 20th century was caused by increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases, which results from human activity such as the burning of fossil fuel and deforestation" based on a source that says "Most scientists agree that the warming in recent decades has been caused primarily by human activities that have increased the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere." Including clear misrepresentations, distortions, omissions, and smears against those with unpopular views may be your idea of how encyclopedia building and science is done. It's certainly not mine. Freakshownerd (talk) 19:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- OK, so the items in question aren't actually "omitted" - they're just not featured prominently at the top of the lead, where you believe they belong. Also, I don't see the misrepresentation in the sourcing example you cite - certainly there's nothing egregious enough to justify even a fraction of the angry rhetoric that you consistently apply to anything with which you disagree. You might want to take these content disputes to the article talk page. MastCell Talk 19:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- No, they're ommitted. They are excluded from the definition provided and the introduction to the subject. So the reader is misinformed. Furthermore, as you seem to have ignored, the article is slanted by distortions, as even cherry picked sources are misrepresented. It's dishonest. It's an abortion carried out by anti-science bigots. It's a shameful and disgusting piece of propaganda that would be more appropriate on Connolley's blog than an encyclopedia. Freakshownerd (talk) 19:55, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- OK, so the items in question aren't actually "omitted" - they're just not featured prominently at the top of the lead, where you believe they belong. Also, I don't see the misrepresentation in the sourcing example you cite - certainly there's nothing egregious enough to justify even a fraction of the angry rhetoric that you consistently apply to anything with which you disagree. You might want to take these content disputes to the article talk page. MastCell Talk 19:52, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Have you read the article? Past global warming is omitted implicitly by the definition in the very first sentence where the subject is defined. There's also nothing in the opening paragraphs about prehistoric global warming. There are also clear misrepresentations such as the statement that "Most of the observed temperature increase since the middle of the 20th century was caused by increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases, which results from human activity such as the burning of fossil fuel and deforestation" based on a source that says "Most scientists agree that the warming in recent decades has been caused primarily by human activities that have increased the amount of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere." Including clear misrepresentations, distortions, omissions, and smears against those with unpopular views may be your idea of how encyclopedia building and science is done. It's certainly not mine. Freakshownerd (talk) 19:43, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- When did you last read the articles you're complaining about? Previous warm periods are "acknowledged" and discussed in Global warming#Temperature changes and temperature record, as well as a host of specific articles like Medieval Warm Period. The uncertainty inherent in climate modeling is described in the lead of global warming, and elaborated upon in Global warming#Climate models and global climate model. I'm not sure which particular conflict-of-interest allegations you're referring to. If they're covered in serious, reputable sources (as opposed to the partisan blogosphere) then I feel sure we cover them here. Actually, even if they're confined to the partisan blogosphere, I would bet we cover them here - because that's where the bar is right now. In any case, it's not clear to me that your complaints are informed by actual familiarity with the articles in question. MastCell Talk 19:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Fringe POVs? Like acknowledging past warming periods or the frequency of errors in the predictions produced by the climate modelers or conflicts of interest among those advocating for "alternative energy" sources? The Global Warming article is a joke. It's a totally unserious advocacy piece that's grossly distorted, slanted, and unscientific. Freakshownerd (talk) 19:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- But that may at least answer Jimbo's earlier question: "Freakshownerd, are you feeling calmer?" MastCell Talk 19:10, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not any calmer about the slanderous misrespresentations and smears being included in BLPs. But having brought them to Jimbo's attention and the appropriate noticeboards, I did what I could to get them addressed. If the powers that be here aren't concerned about the problem and stand behind the editors and admins propagandizing Wikipedia's contents, then that's their business (figuratively and in some cases quite literally). Freakshownerd (talk) 19:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)