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→Christian Polak: Problems in the bibliography? |
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You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the [[WP:AfD|articles for deletion]] template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you.<!-- Template:AFDNote --> [[User:BJBot|BJBot]] ([[User talk:BJBot|talk]]) 10:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC) |
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== [[Christian Polak]] ==--[[User:Slp1|Slp1]] ([[User talk:Slp1|talk]]) 15:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)--[[User:Slp1|Slp1]] ([[User talk:Slp1|talk]]) 15:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC) |
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== [[Christian Polak]] == |
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Hi J R! |
Hi J R! |
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::Thanks a lot, J. [[User:Slp1|Slp1]] ([[User talk:Slp1|talk]]) 22:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC) |
::Thanks a lot, J. [[User:Slp1|Slp1]] ([[User talk:Slp1|talk]]) 22:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Could you take a look at these sources. [http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=H0X&q=%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A3%E3%83%9D%E3%83%8B%E3%83%81%E3%83%A5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89+%E3%83%95%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%81%AE%E7%9F%A5%E6%80%A7%E3%81%8C%E8%A6%8B%E3%81%9F%E3%80%8A%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E3%81%AE%E6%B7%B1%E5%B1%A4%E6%A7%8B%E9%80%A0&btnG=Search&meta=] |
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and clarify whether Polak is listed as author or translator? I'm sorry to say that I have been checking the bibliography and things are looking bad.--[[User:Slp1|Slp1]] ([[User talk:Slp1|talk]]) 15:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC) |
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== Deletions == |
== Deletions == |
Revision as of 15:00, 7 April 2008
ha, good sparring.
I just thought I'd say that even though we seem to have drawn out conflicts over the subject of Debito Arudou, I respect you greatly. You have shown a sense of fairness and quickness that is to be desired in a fellow wikipedian. Even though we argue, I feel honored to argue with someone with such skill. Hopefully, although are viewpoints on particular phrases may differ, you will not hold animosity towards me when the words have finished being written. --Watchreader 05:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- No worries, and thanks for the kind words. I try not to take these things personally. Discussing the fine points of the article to make it even stronger is what the talk page is all about. Provided that everyone can present civil and cogent arguments for change, I'm flexible with the end product. Happy Holidays.—J Readings 06:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Anticipating your workover of the Gaijin article
I read the article on Debito Arudo tonight and think it is superbly balanced—perhaps even a model of how to keep an article NPOV while presenting a full picture of the subject. I'm really looking forward to what you, Exitmoose, and the others do with the Gaijin article. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 12:25, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- I'm looking forward to it, too. Thanks. These articles take a long time to research and re-write, depending on what the sources are. I suspect that the "gaijin" article will be facing a lot of problems in the near future. Without third-party publicly verifiable academic sources, much of it will rely on current "usage" in the print media. And like you, without a neutrally cross-referenced etymology of the word, I'm beginning to wonder if we can even justify an article on the subject. -- J Readings 23:31, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I wonder whether you’re online right now... You just edited your comments on the Talk:Gaijin page a few minutes ago, so I guess I’ll have to go back and re-read them. In any case, I sympathize with your sentiments, which is one reason I’ve been standing back and not editing the Gaijin article: it’s a lose–lose situation right now. Although I have my reservations about the NOR policy being too rigidly applied, the “bar-room talk conclusion” nature of the assertions in many articles (have a look at Japanese titles and kimono—just with respect to Japan, it’s not limited to the Gaijin article) can really get out of hand and are almost impossible to remove, especially when one or more editors are involved who seem to be more interested in using Wikipedia as a soapbox than helping to make is a comprehensive source of neutral, balanced information.
The desire to make Wikipedia broad in content clashes with the NOR policy, though, in cases like the Gaijin article where there is a phenomenon worthy of note, but so little academically or scientifically researched work available to draw on for sources. I have several references on Japanese slang, subculture language, insults, and they like; but they don’t even mention the g-word. And as I’m sure you already know, no common Japanese dictionary of the 国語 genré goes much further beyond defining 外人 as 外国人のこと.
One of my favorite peeves with articles on things Japanese are the quaint little translations that are supplied with some Japanese expressions—why can’t people be satisfied that 着物 means clothes, 君(きみ) means you, and 僕(ぼく) means I without having to resort to glosses like “thing worn,” “my lord,” and “your servant”? What are these weird renderings supposed to illustrate? Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 12:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments. These Japanese language articles certainly present an interesting dilemma. On the one hand, most of what passes for research (and there is a lot of it on the internet) is nothing more than barroom banter and personal speculation. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be much (if any) reliable third-party academic analysis on the etymologies in any language...at least, for the word gaijin. What to do? Any additions to the article without citations can (and should) be considered original research. Then again, for the few bloggers that publicly expressed opinions, WP policy clearly states that their presentations do not constitute reliable sources, and rightfully so. Who knows how rigorous their research was before making a presentation, especially when politics plays such a heavy role in their postings. At one point I would like to consult the WP administrators at WP:ATT and WP:NOR about the Gaijin article. I think that it merits their attention. You might want to do the same for the Japanese titles and kimono pages. J Readings 13:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your response—and sorry about messing up the formatting above; I hope this fixes it. Your “What to do?” questions is poignant, and it points to one of the doubts I’ve been entertaining: NOR looks like one of the foundation policies of Wikipedia, one pretty much carved in marble—which means that any subject for which secondary and third-party sources can’t be cites or found, has to be removed. But this conflicts with Wikipedia’s goal to be an all-comprehensive information resource for anything that is of notable value, which this case (gaijin) certainly is. So there needs to be some flexibility somewhere, such as tolerance for use of primary sources while secondary are unavailable—perhaps with some sort of disclaimer. Perhaps RomaC can be of help, since he seems to have quite a bit of WP experience (though it looks like he might not have much Japan-specific knowledge).
If we could get the NOR issue straightened out, I’d like to work with someone to rework the Gaijin article into one that is balanced and neutral about the word’s controversial aspects; but without citations out the ears (like, for just about every phrase) it will always be a magnet for “bold” editors with an agenda.
Btw, some of the silly glosses I cited above are in the Japanese language article, which seems to me to be otherwise pretty solid. Sometimes I wonder whether these odd glosses aren’t the work of Japanese contributors. Have a good weekend, Jim_Lockhart 16:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for all your research on gaijin—ご苦労様! Also, thanks for archiving the talk page. Btw, ぐゎいじん is pronounced がいじん. The くゎ/ぐゎ kana combinations are no longer used and have been supplanted by か/が since the 1948 kana reforms. They're why for instance 観音 is rendered kwannon is some older English texts. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 16:01, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the note. I didn't know about the 1948 kana reforms, but looking back it makes sense. That said, there are still other academics who read 外人 as either kotobito or udokihito. I'm still unclear about what to make of it. If you have any thoughts, please let me know. Best,J Readings 07:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
言海 also glosses 外人 and ことびと。I’m sure this koto is that of 異, which essentially means different or distinct, as in 異国. Fwiw, intercultural studies are called 異国文化コミュニケーション、異文化理解 and such. Later, Jim_Lockhart 07:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- Back again. 言海 says this about ことひと:
Essentially: somebody else, (an)other person, a third person. It also give two examples, but they’re in classical language.ことひと=「異人」= 其(その)人ならぬ人。他人。
Fwiw, the gloss 敵視するべき人 for the use of 外人 in Heike looks valid to me, but I don’t think interpreting it to mean “someone who should be considered an enemy” is correct—this interpretation mistakes the meaning of するべき to mean should as in when should is being used to give advice. But するべき is not that strong in meaning—it means something more like “it would be natural/understandable if one did XXX.” I see gaijin and 敵視するべき人 as meaning “people outside of your ingroup, of whom you should therefore be wary because they could be working for the enemy or traitors.”
By the way, a funny thing happened to me at the store recently, just as we were discussing all this stuff on the Gaijin talk page. A little girl—I’d say five or six—gave me the old “Oooo! Gaijin da!” treatment with a little twist: She said “gaijin-san,” and her mother looked embarrassed about it. The first time she noticed me was from a short distance, but the second time was when I got in line at the till while her mother was bagging her groceries. The little girl kept looking over her mom’s shoulder (and, at one point, around a post) and giggling, so when I finished paying I went over to the same table to bag my stuff. When I left, I gave her the バイバイ thing that kids do here, and she lit up and waved back. (Mother gave an embarrassed nick of the head.) I think somebody’d have to be pretty cynical to interpret that as disparagement—although I know a few other ex-pats who would be fuming about how “racist” it was and wanting to know why I hadn’t dressed down, if not the little girl, at least the mother about it. If I had, though, who would have gained? Would that have done anything to counter racism? My bet is that it would have helped entrench it, as well as added to or displaced the curiosity with fear and perhaps a little resentment. This is my feeling about this whole gaijin-as-disparagement business. Have a good one, Jim_Lockhart 08:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- I have much more to report over the next few days, but I have one other interesting tidbit on this topic of 外人 etymology, classical Japanese literature, and potential epithets. Donald M. Richardson, editor of A Literary Translator's Japanese-English Dictionary (Winchester, VA: 1998), weighs in on this subject. He tells us that gaijin simply means "a foreigner; a stranger; an alien" but it is not an epithet, nor is it even remotely pejorative. In Richardson's view, the word that *is* considered to be an epithet in classical Japanese literature to refer to foreigners is 東人(toujin). It can either mean "(1) a Chinese" or "(2) an epithet for foreigners." (pg. 838). I thought that was interesting, and lends more support to the idea that the Kojien definition of Heike's passage (and its WP interpretation) is either incorrect or misleading in its current form. J Readings 12:18, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
- I can’t wait for your full report! Meanwhile, I zipped over to Amazon to check out that dictionary... :( It seems to be out of print! Where did you see it, at a college library? It sounds like a winner (and I don’t mean because of its gloss for gaijin—I’ve never seen a J>E dictionary of literary language! Jim_Lockhart 12:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
The cycle begins anew
I see that User:Jpatokal and User:Exploding Boy are back on the Gaijin article. I’ve gone around in circles with one or both of them before (don’t recall which) and recall that the exercise was no fun. If you recall, I once referred to working on this article as a lose–lose situation; that is what I was referring to. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 11:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
- It's terribly frustrating. It's obvious that it's not about the research (they don't have any); they just want to push a political agenda. Unfortunate, really. J Readings 12:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, precisely. Wanting to push a political agenda is not bad in itself, it’s just that they’ve chosen the wrong venue. They have a point in that the controversy needs mentioning, and I’m at a bit of a loss about how to do that while complying with Wiki policies on attribution and such because there seems to be so little in scholarly work on the subject—none that I can find, at least; though I must admit that I’m not able to devote the time and energy to it that you’ve put into your research on the word. I think that for scholars, Japanese or otherwise, gaijin as a problem expression is a bit of a non-issue. This is where the NOR policy can be a bit of a hindrance, though: one of the most interesting and useful facets of Wikipedia can be in the information offered that is not mentioned or accepted by the mainstream, regardless of the subject matter (the problems start went such content starts to take over like a kudzu vine!). Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 13:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
- At this point, I would be satisfied with a few reliably sourced and reputable opinion polls by mainstream print newspapers. Having looked carefully myself, they simply don't exist. The closest thing was a very dubious internet poll that has all different types of methodological problems, and won't pass the vetting process. Arudou's e-mail on gaijin aside, there aren't any journalists or academics that insist that the word is derogatory. To be fair, Tokyo Drift makes the explicit case in the movie (and we're allowed to cite it in usage, I imagine) but I seriously doubt that type of fictional commentary over-rides all the other serious research to the point where it's given undue weight in the WP article. I have other research results to share, including some stuff on NHK, authors' opinions, and academic usage which I'll get to writing-up in a few days when I get the chance. In the meantime, my day-job calls! Best,J Readings 23:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks
For finding that Times link! I wasn't thinking that it would be on the web, but it is great that it is! --Slp1 02:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- You're welcome. Glad to help. J Readings 02:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Nick Baker
I am really begining to wonder if the Nick Baker story is notable at all. Who is involved, his mother, an non notable MEP, a NGO of unknown importance, and Mark Devlin. It's funny how everyone is piling on Devlin, but, how many foreingers in Japan know about this case if it wasn't a cover story on Metropolis twice? I am wondering if we should push for an AfD on notablility grounds and lack of reliable sources. Sourcing is going to be a real problem, in my opinion, if any article from Metropolis is not allowed. I wonder how many other westerners in Asian prisons for drug trafficing have their own wikipeida article. Is a westerner in an asian prision for drug trafficing claiming innocence while his or her supporters decry the human rights of said Asian country notable? Or any of these people What do you think? XinJeisan 15:19, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the note. On the first point, it's very difficult to achieve consensus for AfD on notability grounds especially when there have been so many newspaper and e-zine articles published on the case. Granted, many of these news stories were fed to the media by the Baker legal tream, but that doesn't discount the article's notability (ultimately, the meda -- for whatever reason -- ran with it).
- On your second point, reliability of sources, I have a lot of sympathy. There is a clear selection bias at work in the writing of this article. Personally, I strongly believe that all partisan sources must be identified as such, removed from the descriptive portions of the article, and replaced with reliable, third-party sources (e.g., newspapers). The "Reactions to trial" section can probably keep the partisan materials. J Readings 22:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I had to bring up AfD. Like I said, if you look through the articles, no one has really done an independent review of this case. There has been no indepedent biography done of Nick Baker, and the UK government has failed time and again to become involved in any public way.
Anyways, I will probably keep along on the talk page and contribute where I can, but I believe that you will do right by wikipedia standards. I haven't really followed policy talks or anything until someone put up a sumo article for deletion. For the past two weeks or so I have been following policy as opposed to actually editing. It is interesting to see how this comes together. XinJeisan 15:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- No need to apologize to me about AfD. As an editor, you have every right to raise the issue. I just don't agree that this article is a strong candidate. The good news is that majority seems to think that something needs to be done. Four of us seem to agree that the article needs to adopt a more rigorous methodology; two others seem to support the idea in theory at least (with some quibbles about what should be cross-referenced); one seems to favor outright deletion (with your seconding); and one appears just to be noise directed at user:sparkzilla and Metropolis. Anyway, rather than do any more archive work on the article right now, I think I'll take a break until some kind of consensus is reached on the AfD issue. I should get back to my day job! Have fun with studying Wikipedia policy. It's fascinating stuff. Best, J Readings 00:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Trophy
The Umeboshi Sumo Trophy | ||
For the excellent work of transforming the Nick Baker talk pages into a model representation of what Wikipedia can be when all the stars are aligned, including going to visit an actual library to verify data for us! |
But, with no Japanese sources, and limited english sources, someone should put it up for AfD. I am going on wikibreak so I'm not,it wouldn't look proper. have fun with it whichever way it goes. XinJeisan 10:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Re-writing history comment
You have a userbox on your userpage, saying "this user assumes good faith." Accusing me of "re-writing history" when I remove some paragraphs that seem quite unnecessary to the criticism section of Arudo Debito seems quite out of spirit with that userbox..? 217.209.193.65 21:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Hi 217.209.193.65. Thanks for leaving a comment. Please see the Debito Arudou talk page for further details on that interesting situation. J Readings 22:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion
Is there some reason you tagged this for speedy deletion? NawlinWiki 20:39, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for bringing this to my attention. I had no idea. I just downloaded a new user script called Twinckle and I must have accidentally pressed the speedy deletion button. J Readings 20:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
A Lawyer Walks Into A Bar
Are you satisfied that, after your efforts, A Lawyer Walks Into A Bar is notable? I ask because MRHEDP, also by user:Stinly, was speedily deleted as spam. It was about "Media Rights Holder Electronic Distribution Protocol. MRHEDP is a newly adopted process by which anyone or any entity that owns rights to specific media such as films, music, and video can self-distribute their media output (DVD, CD, etc) through widely available distribution outlets exclusively available online." See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MRHEDP. And Stnly is obviously a single-purpose account. -- RHaworth 15:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the note. I agree with you that the article still needs a lot of work (it reads like an advertisement in places) and that it would have looked much better had an established user submitted the entry, but I do think that it meets the notability requirements. Using Lexis-Nexis, I found several reliable third-party sources that mentioned the film and two articles that wrote just about the film itself. Add to those the fact that it won an award (see IMDB entry), received a little coverage from the mainstream Wall Street Journal, and falls under the acceptable category of "independent film" in the WikiProject Film, just barely puts it over the top in my opinion. Regards, J Readings 01:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Your Proposed Canidate For Speedy Deletion, Zoey Beckner
This is a notice to inform you that your proposed canidate for speedy deletion based on CSD#A7, titled Zoey beckner, has been contested by the creator of the article. If you wish to dispute this, you may do so upon The articles' talk page. ⒺⓋⒾⓁⒼⓄⒽⒶⓃ② talk 19:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
antisemitism vs. anti-Semitism
Always a controversial topic! ;-)
Check out the article antisemitism. I think the lower case version is a function of the urge to lose the hyphen; Safire wrote on this tendency more than once.
Why "antisemitism" but "anti-Americanism," you ask? Good question. Does antiamericanism look stupid because of the juxtaposed vowels? Billbrock 02:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good points. Ahhh, I miss William Safire's weekly "On Language" articles. They were about the only thing worth reading in the New York Times Magazine! :-) J Readings 06:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Morrison Steam Fayre
Hi - I just created http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrison_Steam_Fayre and you appear to have marked it for speedy deletion. Could you let me know why?
Many thanks in advance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Danclark8 (talk • contribs) 11:43, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
- Hi Danclark8. Welcome to Wikipedia. I ran a Lexis-Nexis news search on the band, but I wasn't able to find any articles written about them. If you can cite more than that one independent third-party article from the BBC News, I would be happy to withdraw the speedy delete request on the notability grounds. J Readings 11:53, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Cheers for the explanation - there's another general article about the band at NME; have linked to it in the Wiki article & edited slightly. OK to withdraw the request now? :) Danclark8 12:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- No problem. Thanks. I'll remove the speedy delete tag, but this doesn't ensure that someone else won't object to the article at a later date. If I could make a suggestion, try putting as many reliably sourced citations into the article so that the notability of the subject is pretty much guaranteed. I'll try to help you out by looking on the internet, too. If I find anything, I'll add the sources. J Readings 22:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Oops. I just went to the page. It now looks like an administrator decided to delete the entire article. Oh well. J Readings 22:54, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Ummmm.....why
How is making a page about a single that charted into the top 50 in Australia (Obsession/Lost In A Dream) vandalism? And i think it is a great idea to leave Metal Sampler as a page and not delete it, look at its discussion page for my proof. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fordzii (talk • contribs) 06:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
- Please stop removing speedy deletion notices from articles that you have created yourself, as you did with Metal Sampler and Obsession/Lost In A Dream. For further details, please carefully read Wikipedia policies regarding speedy deletion criteria and, in this case, the nomination process. Thank you, J Readings 06:15, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Essjay pic
Hi,
Could we discuss the above image on Talk:Essjay controversy? I can see it might interest some, but I'm having difficulty seeing its appropriateness and have explained why on that page.
Thanks :)
FT2 (Talk | email) 18:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks to the hard-work of not a few dedicated editors, we were finally able to upgrade this article to GA-status. Personally, I have no objection to editors wishing to cut-down on redundant language and poor grammar, hone the introduction, and improve other miscellany. In fact, I welcome and appreciate many/most of your edits today. I start to get very uncomfortable, however, when editors start changing the article too much without first consulting with others on the talk page. One of the things that crosses the line is the Essjay picture. We have been through this issue several times. Indeed, it was at the request of reviewers for FA-status that finally put the Essjay picture on the page for good. I would hate to think that we would have to revisit this issue for the n-th time now that we finally achieved GA-status. Best regards, J Readings 18:18, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Assuming good faith
Do you have any tips on how to assume good faith when dealing with people who don't seem to be editing in good faith? Yaki-gaijin (talk) 09:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Yaki-gaijin. I'm assuming that question is in reference to the comfort women article, right? :-) Personally, I can understand why you might be a little irritated. You clearly have strong views about this subject based on what you've written on the talk page, and your own user page. You feel your position is justified. The problem is: other contributors acting in good faith might have read other books and materials which offer a different take on history. Consequently, there is a clash. My personal philosophy is to take a break from an article whenever I start to get hot-under-the-collar. Otherwise, I run the risk of exploding in public.
- Looking back on my own edits, I once got very upset with another contributing editor who clearly wanted to push a political agenda. I (and a few others) arrived at that conclusion based on (1) the fact that he didn't have any secondary research at all to support his POV-edits (so he wasn't simply documenting and describing the debate, he was engaging in it), (2) he (I think it was a "he") made it very clear on the talk page that the article "should" mostly be about one aspect of the subject that interested him (again, without documenting why that should be the case), and (3) he kept insisting that any reliably sourced edits he disliked or which were "inconvenient" to his position needed to be removed from the article.
- Rather than taking a break, I started to argue with him in public (not a good move on my part) and started to assume bad faith on all his future edits anywhere and everywhere. Thankfully, it didn't get out of hand and ended within a couple hours of starting. But I really regret having done any of that. Wikipedia is not a battleground. There is nothing that says that someone cannot revisit an article days, months, or years later with new material that conforms with policy. By that time, an editor can just as easily remove or polish previous edits to make them stronger and more factually accurate.
- Believe me, no one is interested in deleting The Comfort Women page. It is not going anywhere. I myself would like to contribute more to it, but unfortunatley I'm busy with other things and also I think I would have constructed the page a little differently by focusing on the controversy that it generates in both the mass media and academic circles. It may not be useful to any one partisan position or lobby, but it might give the reader a better general overview of the subject matter -- which is what an encyclopedia strives to do. In good faith, J Readings (talk) 14:10, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. We could use more people like you on the comfort women page. Yaki-gaijin (talk) 22:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Talk:David Irving - add, don't overwrite
Welcome to Wikipedia. It might not have been your intention, but your recent edit removed content from Talk:David Irving. When removing text, please specify a reason in the edit summary and discuss edits that are likely to be controversial on the article's talk page. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the text has been restored, as you can see from the page history. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia, and if you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. --Calton | Talk 00:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- Calton, the text was specifically archived as I clearly wrote in the edit summary because it was already lengthy. Nothing was deleted and nothing was overwritten. J Readings (talk) 00:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- No, you just replaced an entire, active talk page with your own position paper. Archiving is generally not done for that purpose. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, if you say so. Clearly you're upset for some reason, and that was not my intention. I'll stay out of it. J Readings (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- No, you just replaced an entire, active talk page with your own position paper. Archiving is generally not done for that purpose. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- Hey guys, you can check the revision history to see that the user first archived the material,[1] then over-wrote it.[2]. It was a confusing method, but the end effect is the same as a conventional archiving operation.
- J Readings, the general guidelines on archiving are at Help:Archiving a talk page. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the content guidelines on archiving. I'll be sure to read these carefully for future reference. Best regards, J Readings (talk) 02:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Not a glitch
The four tildes that weren't working on the Gaijin talk page were full-width (全角) wavy dashes (~~~~), so your IME must’ve been turned on when you input them. You replaced then with regular tildes, which fixed the problem.
I’m having difficulty with some of the new material introduced into the Gaijin article. For example, I consider the section about fingerprinting of non-Japanese upon entry into the country to be irrelevant to the definition or usage of gaijin; it looks again like it’s designed to make the Japanese unusually xenophobic, even though this practice (photographing and fingerprinting aliens upon entry into a country) is done elsewhere, particularly the United States. (Many people don't seem to know it, but Japan’s alien registration scheme—including the registration cards and the fingerprinting that was scrapped in the mid 1980s—was SCAP’s brainchild, not that of the Japanese.) This and some of the other newer content, while I think it does belong somewhere in Wikipedia and should be cross-referenced from the Gaijin article (because readers are likely to look for it here), is not really relevant to this article in helping readers to understand gaijin and related arguments unless the purpose is to lead readers to believe that gaijin is a phenomenon rooted in Japanese xenophobia (defined as contempt for or fear or dislike/hatred of non-Japanese).
Personally, I think the situation on the ground is much more like that described in the Mayumi Itoh quotation you cite on the Gaijin talk page. I realize that some view Japanese attitudes towards foreigners as some sort of reverse-Orientalism and therefore racism, but it's certainly not hatred for the majority, and I think that this is a distinction that should be made. Ah, well. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart (talk) 14:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Jim. I don't know what to tell you. If you feel strongly about it, it's really a good idea to say something on the talk page for the sake of discussion. I can see what you're saying about the irrelevancy of fingerprinting for this particular article, but it is not something I want to take the lead on. As it is, RomaC is trying to make me out to be some kind of control-freak with ownership issues (<sigh>), and as much as I resent the personal attacks and wish he would read the guidelines for writing the lead section and those for a reliable source, I have to accept that's how he feels. I wish there were more editors actively contributing to this article who understand policies and guidelines --- Bendono and a few others immediately come to mind.
- Personally, the more I research the word, the more complicated this situation becomes in terms of editing the article. I've been putting off adding any of these citations because I see myself sitting down for hours trying to figure out how to re-word this stuff without original synthesis, and I really don't have the time lately. Plus, we all know that few editors will be happy with the end-product and this fact is probably why no one else has tried to add citations, either! :-) J Readings (talk) 21:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Jim, I moved that part from Ethnic issues in Japan since they are not issues at all or not well described as ethnic issues but rather human rights in foreigners in Japan and issue of nationality. I chose to move them for the present since if I just deleted them, that would invoke edit war. I chose gaijin since it corresponds to foreigners in Japan (ja:日本の外国人). If the description concerning the issue will be added, they will be moved to human rights of foreigners section in Human rights in Japan. Should we separately make an article, Foreigners in Japan?--Jjok (talk) 21:39, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Jjok. FWIW, it does seem strangely out of place in this article considering that it's mostly about the nature of the word, its etymology, and usage in literature and non-fiction. Your suggestion of either making a separate article or putting it in the human rights of foreigners section seems to be a better idea. J Readings (talk) 22:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
- I like Jjok’s idea of where to put the material, and think a link should be provided to it at the end of the Gaijin article. JReadings, I don’t feel strong enough about the issue to do something that would draw a lot of flak at the moment, because like you, I’m too busy in real life to get dragged into defending everything; in this sense, I empathize with you on your aversion right now to reworking everything to reflect all the research you’ve done. That's why I stopped trying to actively contribute to the Gaijin article long ago; apologies to those who think that’s cowardly. I saw the material accusing you of being a control freak and thought them quite unwarranted and unfair; personally, I find such accusations to be little more than attempts to cower others. You have displayed “ownership” in that article in a positive manner, which I believe is probably better described as “stewardship” is as much as you have taken it upon yourself to see that material conforms to guidelines and furthers Wikipedia the project rather than Wikipedia the bully pulpit. If accusers can cite no instance of your deleting material gratuitously, I think they have little to stand on. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart (talk) 07:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
You are ridiculous!
I mean to say, you have a ridiculous amount of patience. Good luck with Amazonfire and all the other Japanese revisionists that are going to rip apart every page they touch. I will try not to get in your way. Yaki-gaijin (talk) 11:51, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I don't think I'm being ridiculous. (^_^) I'm trying to understand where he's coming from (See WP:BITE). As it turns out, a lot of what he's saying is simply a misunderstanding of WP policies and guidelines. After politely pointing that out to him, I think he concedes that many of his arguments were inappropriate and is trying to understand better what the rules are. I agree with you that it's wrong to delete completely the referenced material, but getting into an edit war over it doesn't help. The best way forward is to give it a little time and keep a cool head. Also, and I sincerely mean this, you should consult with other experienced editors and administrators on the reliable source noticeboard. Not only will they make an authoritative judgment about Friday Weekly, but they'll likely visit the page to offer peer review, too. No editor in their right mind, especially an editor wanting to last on Wikipedia, will unilaterally pick fights with them during the peer review process. Give it a try. You might be pleasantly surprised. Best regards, J Readings (talk) 13:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
As you know, Wikipedia is free encyclopedia. Here, we are intended to get the content under free-license. The image qualifies its fair use criteria for Caroline in the City because the role of Lea Thompson as Caroline can not be repeated in the future. So, unless the owner of the images does not release them under free-license, they could not be replacable fair-use. The article about the show depicts the show and follows the guideline and really makes sense to the article with the image, whereas career of Lea Thompson on the article does not follow fair use rationale guideline. The section has its significance without an image. There is really a requirement of having her real life photo on the article. I suppose, the free-image could be made available by contacting a person who is very near to or Lea Thompson, herself. (Quentin X (talk) 10:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC))
Great work on improving this article and finding the supporting sources. You might consider writing to the sisters' publicists/agents to ask for free-use images for the article. Who knows, they might actually provide them without demanding a payment. Cla68 (talk) 00:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the kind words. There's still a little that can be added from the English sources. I've just started to read Kyoko Kano's autobiography in Japanese (Millennium Muse). There's a little that can be added from that book, too (not to mention the other Japanese sources). Re the photos, I agree that the article needs them. I'd contact the Kano sisters myself, but I'm still unsure what to ask. Copyright infringement versus fair use on Wikipedia for digital photographs is still a subject I don't fully understand. What specifically do I need from them? The more I watch others delete photos, the more confused I get (see the Lea Thompson issue above.) I recall how Mark Devlin (AKA Sparkzilla), former owner of Metropolis magazine, granted explicit permission to use the magazine's logo on the WP page. An editor quickly deleted that digital image for some reason, but I don't know why. I'd appreciate some guidance on this issue. Best, J Readings (talk) 14:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at some of the photos in other celebrity articles, there doesn't seem to be one common license used. Raul654, a Commons admin, recently set up a repository for celebrity publicity agencies to deposit images of their celebrities for use in Wikipedia. I'll try to locate it and see what it says on this issue and add the link here later. Where do you live in Japan, by the way? I'm in Kanagawa. Cla68 (talk) 23:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- I found it, here's the page that has the instructions for submitting bio photos. We're supposed to email that text to the publicist of the celebrity that we're writing about. I don't know if the Kano Sisters have an English contact for their publicists. If not, then someone will have to write them in Japanese and that is beyond my linguistic abilities. Cla68 (talk) 01:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Great. Thanks a lot for this link! I'll try to get some digital photos for the article. J Readings (talk) 09:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I found it, here's the page that has the instructions for submitting bio photos. We're supposed to email that text to the publicist of the celebrity that we're writing about. I don't know if the Kano Sisters have an English contact for their publicists. If not, then someone will have to write them in Japanese and that is beyond my linguistic abilities. Cla68 (talk) 01:13, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at some of the photos in other celebrity articles, there doesn't seem to be one common license used. Raul654, a Commons admin, recently set up a repository for celebrity publicity agencies to deposit images of their celebrities for use in Wikipedia. I'll try to locate it and see what it says on this issue and add the link here later. Where do you live in Japan, by the way? I'm in Kanagawa. Cla68 (talk) 23:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I was just about to drop you a note myself...
...saying "well said, elsewhere". But you beat me to it! I notice similar tactics have been used elsewhere and his approach, tone etc criticized. It certainly is very wearing, though seductive in a Socratic way! And his motivation, to allow him to introduce something into an article? or just to "win" his point? Who knows? I certainly won't be responding anymore, despite the attacks, and suspect that the best solution is if nobody does! Happy New Year! --Slp1 (talk) 00:49, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Absolutely. Happy New Year to you, too! J Readings (talk) 08:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Gaijin again
please see talk page. Let's get a balanced intro that includes a reference to the term being a racial slur and considered derogatory by some. The intro for the word NIGGER is a good base to use for this term. Keep an open mind.
- Thanks for your note (I did not write the above, BTW!). I was thinking of asking for some help but was actually a bit encouraged this morning to see that I had not been reverted (totally) and that discussion was taking place (here) and on the talkpage, however frostily. It will be too bad if you retire for 6 months as you seem to have lots of information to contribute and explain, but do what you must do! --Slp1 (talk) 12:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's funny. In the beginning, I can't even remember how I got involved with this article because I knew absolutely nothing about the word. When I first came to the page, I noticed a lot of activity, but little in terms of sources. One thing led to another, and I started to do some research. Like User:Exitmoose et al., I'm actually surprised what I found.
- As for the anon SPA, I'm trying to understand him per WP:BITE, but it's really tiring. Rather than attack me personally on the talk page, I wish he would just have a normal, academic conversation and share his findings with the group. I'd certainly respect that a lot more than what he's doing now (stating what he passionately believes and working backwards). I felt that it was time to move on to other things for a little while and let other experienced editors like you work on the article. If I get sucked back in, I'll be accused of "ownership" which is patently ridiculous because all I've been doing up until now is following the policies and guidelines for WP:SOAP, WP:LEAD, WP:RS, WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:SYN, WP:ATT, WP:N, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. That's how to write a good article; follow this stuff and everything will be okay. That's why it's there. Unfortunately, some of these users just don't take the time to understand them so you have to be patient. Anyway, I need to get back to work. Have a good flight and call me or User:Bendono or User:JALockhart or one of the admins to the article if he really refuses to comply with these policies and guidelines. These editors also understand how to write an encyclopedia article. Best, J Readings (talk) 13:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, well I understand, and it is quite wise, I imagine. But it is good that s/he is talking so I will see how it goes... we seem to have made a bit of progress, I think. I do think sourcing these things is important. A couple of articles I worked on, École Polytechnique massacre and Marc Lépine, were controversial too, but the POV editors really backed off once a verifiable version of their opinion (but not at the extreme) was sourced and in available in black and white. That's why I was interested in your input, because I think if we could just nail down a couple of sourced sentences that everybody could live with, the whole thing might be over. I'll see what I can do nonetheless. Happy working on others things!! --Slp1 (talk) 00:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comment. For some background, I'd recommend that you start from the beginning. Read all of the archives and see how this strange situation developed over time. A quick synopsis: When I first came to the page mid-way (Archive 4), there was already a lengthy, inappropriate bar-room like argument and edit war regarding the term between three editors (one Japanese and 2 others). Jim Lockhart (who I didn't know then and whom I've still never had the pleasure of meeting) intervened to say the most important thing: "where is any of the content in this article?" Jim's comment reflected the views of other experienced editors (e.g., Yoji Hajime, CES, Cla68, etc.) who assumed that everything was already reliably researched. Provided that in-line citations were added to comply with policy, everything would be alright.
- Yes, well I understand, and it is quite wise, I imagine. But it is good that s/he is talking so I will see how it goes... we seem to have made a bit of progress, I think. I do think sourcing these things is important. A couple of articles I worked on, École Polytechnique massacre and Marc Lépine, were controversial too, but the POV editors really backed off once a verifiable version of their opinion (but not at the extreme) was sourced and in available in black and white. That's why I was interested in your input, because I think if we could just nail down a couple of sourced sentences that everybody could live with, the whole thing might be over. I'll see what I can do nonetheless. Happy working on others things!! --Slp1 (talk) 00:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- As for the anon SPA, I'm trying to understand him per WP:BITE, but it's really tiring. Rather than attack me personally on the talk page, I wish he would just have a normal, academic conversation and share his findings with the group. I'd certainly respect that a lot more than what he's doing now (stating what he passionately believes and working backwards). I felt that it was time to move on to other things for a little while and let other experienced editors like you work on the article. If I get sucked back in, I'll be accused of "ownership" which is patently ridiculous because all I've been doing up until now is following the policies and guidelines for WP:SOAP, WP:LEAD, WP:RS, WP:UNDUE, WP:FRINGE, WP:SYN, WP:ATT, WP:N, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR. That's how to write a good article; follow this stuff and everything will be okay. That's why it's there. Unfortunately, some of these users just don't take the time to understand them so you have to be patient. Anyway, I need to get back to work. Have a good flight and call me or User:Bendono or User:JALockhart or one of the admins to the article if he really refuses to comply with these policies and guidelines. These editors also understand how to write an encyclopedia article. Best, J Readings (talk) 13:02, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
- Exitmoose and I started to work on finding those sources, but unfortunately we found absolutely nothing; it appeared to be a lot original research and original synthesis. Where were they getting their materials from? Sadly, they were getting them from chat forums, personal websites, personal anecdotes, unpublished fringe theories, unverified television programs, etc. We removed it all per WP:RS and WP:OR. Consequently, Exitmoose, Jim Lockhart, Bendono and I agreed that the "Controversy" section was a magnet for unsourced POV-pushing on both sides and needed to be removed. Only two editors objected: one of them wrote the section himself and the other stated (irrelevantly) his personal views on how racist the word is, so it should somehow stay in.
- Some of these IP addresses are obviously new to WP and aren't familiar with how to write an encyclopedia entry. Others are potential sock puppets. I recommend that you continue to be civil, keep a cool head, and stay focused on the subject matter in relative context. As policy states, "exceptional claims require exceptional sources." Otherwise, they'll start to add all kinds of contentious edits and the article will become a lengthy, unstable and unreliable mess. My hope is that eventually they'll either understand that and try to work with experienced editors or leave realizing that turning WP into a soapbox isn't such a good idea. Give me a call if you need some feedback. Good luck! J Readings (talk) 01:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the encouragement, but the latest edits push things into the going bad to worse category, and I am inclined to take a break myself. It is too bad that all the other informed editors have got fed up, but I can understand why. I may try another approach yet, but will wait a day or two to see if anything or anyone else crops up. Please note that this is not a hint in any way!! --Slp1 (talk) 01:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- You've done some excellent research so far. I'm impressed. It never occurred to me, for example, to check Harumi Befu's Hegemony of Homogeneity, and it was sitting on my bookshelf the whole time. Another option is to take a break, or do some more research to solidify the article. As it stands, putting undue weight on a couple of sources in the lead and the rest of the article is clear violation of official policy. My sense is that the other editor is really new to all of this and simply can't understand that Wikipedia is a tertiary source relying on a careful balance of *reliable* secondary sources. There is hardly any "balance" when someone has to rely on two sources to buttress everything in the lead and the rest of the article. Remember, there are dozens of dictionaries, academic works, and other articles that do not support the "racist" lead. In any case, if after a little while it doesn't work out, simply call for a third opinion of all editors using the right channels, and get a definitive judgment after you've done your research. If he doesn't respect that, then bring it to the attention of admins or an arbitration committee. I know 10 experienced editors who will happily support the process. The editor's bad faith and lack of understanding of policies like "undue weight" is tiresome, but give him some time. He might finally understand at some point and decide to work with you. J Readings (talk) 02:10, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the encouragement, but the latest edits push things into the going bad to worse category, and I am inclined to take a break myself. It is too bad that all the other informed editors have got fed up, but I can understand why. I may try another approach yet, but will wait a day or two to see if anything or anyone else crops up. Please note that this is not a hint in any way!! --Slp1 (talk) 01:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- Some of these IP addresses are obviously new to WP and aren't familiar with how to write an encyclopedia entry. Others are potential sock puppets. I recommend that you continue to be civil, keep a cool head, and stay focused on the subject matter in relative context. As policy states, "exceptional claims require exceptional sources." Otherwise, they'll start to add all kinds of contentious edits and the article will become a lengthy, unstable and unreliable mess. My hope is that eventually they'll either understand that and try to work with experienced editors or leave realizing that turning WP into a soapbox isn't such a good idea. Give me a call if you need some feedback. Good luck! J Readings (talk) 01:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- Just got back to this after some real work. I've saved the file but I don't think it would do much good to post it at this point. I am glad that so many people dived in last night (or whatever time it is over there), since it makes it easier if it is not a me and against him thing. So much for your 6 month rule, but I was grateful nonetheless. Re the research: thank goodness for Googlebooks. Could you add the ref the newspaper whose style guide mentions not using the word (as mentioned on the talkpages somewhere)? I couldn't figure out the correct reference for that one. Slp1 (talk) 01:39, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- To be honest, I was going to stay out of it. Then I noticed that a few unrelated editors also tried to get through to him, and he reverted them as well without taking any discussion to the talk page. <sigh> Yes, I broke my own self-imposed rule. I need to go to the library right now for some real world work today. Let me look into it and get back to you. I might be able to work on it tomorrow. :-) Thanks, J Readings (talk) 02:13, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Patrolling pages and tagging with CSD
Hi there, in case you didn't know, there is a feature called patrolled pages. After you tag an article for speedy deletion, you should mark it as patrolled so other editors don't waste their time re-reviewing it. Thanks Shootthedevgru (talk) 07:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. Good to know. J Readings (talk) 07:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
On 31 January, you added the WP:Biography template to this article and marked it as high priority. Is there something about this actress I missed that would classify her as high priority? She has 20 credits at the IMDB and the most prominent seems to have been in Juno as an ultrasound technician. Criteria for High priority is: Actors and filmmakers who are well-known in the film industry, to film buffs, and others. These people can reasonably be expected to be included in any print encyclopedia. I am going to re-classify her as low importance at this time, unless I am missing something. Thanks! Wildhartlivie (talk) 13:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- I don't recall marking it as high priority. If I did, it was an accident after patrolling the new page creations. Thanks, J Readings (talk) 17:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you
Thank you, :) (LakeOswego (talk) 02:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC))
- You're welcome. J Readings (talk) 05:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Bobby Fischer and Gothic Chess
We're having a discussion about whether to include the Gothic Chess material in the Bobby Fischer article. I'm letting you know about it because one issue we're talking about is your opinion on the subject. Check the discussion at Talk:Bobby Fischer Just to clarify (talk) 19:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
hello
what is the problem with the page, could you please tell me? it is all genuine material, you can see their own website if you dont believe me —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shume 007 (talk • contribs) 11:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Hi. WP:BAND covers the notability criteria of bands in Wikipedia. Hope that helps, J Readings (talk) 11:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
AfD nomination of Bob Dent
An editor has nominated Bob Dent, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").
Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bob Dent and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).
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== Christian Polak ==--Slp1 (talk) 15:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)--Slp1 (talk) 15:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi J R! With your Japanese knowledge and interest I wonder if you have anything to add to this particular hot potato. [3], [4]. --Slp1 (talk) 00:08, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Translating it sentence by sentence:
一九五〇年八月、南フランスのノガロに生まれる。 Translation: [Polak] was born in Logano (Southern France), August 1950.
一九七一年、パリ大学東洋学部(現、国立東洋言語文化研究所)卒。 Translation: He graduated from Paris University's Orientalist (East Asian) Department in 1971 (now the National Oriental Language and Culture Research Institute).
同年、日本政府給費留学生として来日。 Translation: The same year, [Polak] came to Japan as a foreign exchange student funded by (with a scholarship from) the Japanese Government.
早稲田大学語学教育研究所卒。 Translation: He graduated from Waseda University's Institute of Language and Education.
一橋大学大学院博士過程法学研究科修了。 Translation: He completed his doctorate (Ph.D) in Law from Hitotsubashi University's (post)graduate course.
一橋大学客員研究員、中央大学文学部・法学部講師、日仏会館研究員。 Translation: He was a Visiting Research Fellow at Hitotsubashi University, a lecturer in Law at Chuo University's Law Department, and a researcher at the Maison Franco-Japonaise.
The Japanese text here does not make any mention of the "History of Diplomacy Section" mentioned in the Wikipedia text. As for the later sentences that cite a different source, I haven't looked at those but the details of his doctorate are not covered in the Japanese text provided, either. Hope that helps, J Readings (talk) 18:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
- Can you check this statement within the article? "He received the Medal of the Légion d'honneur (Chevalier) in 1989." A source is cited,[6] but I think it may be falsified. Jehochman Talk 19:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
and clarify whether Polak is listed as author or translator? I'm sorry to say that I have been checking the bibliography and things are looking bad.--Slp1 (talk) 15:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Deletions
Hi J. Could you kindly explain why you simply delete my (referenced) contributions without an explanation? [8]. あまりフェアーではないと思うんですが。Cheers PHG (talk) 13:12, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- It's on the talk page. Thanks,J Readings (talk) 13:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)