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:::::::I've always argued that the purpose of expletives is to act as intensifiers. It's not vulgarity for the sake of vulgarity, it serves a purpose, and anyone who thinks differently is a fucking ignorant American twat. There, I feel better now. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 00:10, 15 May 2010 (UTC) |
:::::::I've always argued that the purpose of expletives is to act as intensifiers. It's not vulgarity for the sake of vulgarity, it serves a purpose, and anyone who thinks differently is a fucking ignorant American twat. There, I feel better now. [[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 00:10, 15 May 2010 (UTC) |
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::::::::"Verbal punctuation" is the phrase I always use (stolen from an interview with [[Jerry Sadowitz]]). Like most things, it's only offensive to those who want to be offended, and such people will always find something to be offended by if they want to be. – <font color="#E45E05">[[User:Iridescent|iride]]</font><font color="#C1118C">[[User talk:Iridescent|scent]]</font> 00:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC) |
::::::::"Verbal punctuation" is the phrase I always use (stolen from an interview with [[Jerry Sadowitz]]). Like most things, it's only offensive to those who want to be offended, and such people will always find something to be offended by if they want to be. – <font color="#E45E05">[[User:Iridescent|iride]]</font><font color="#C1118C">[[User talk:Iridescent|scent]]</font> 00:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Love Sadowitz; I was quoting his line ''"I only hate two things, living things and inanimate objects"'' just the other day. Like early [[Lenny Bruce]] or even early [[Billy Connolly]], he makes what Americans call ''profanity'' an asset because he uses it so well. --[[User:John|John]] ([[User talk:John|talk]]) 01:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC) |
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== Revert. == |
== Revert. == |
Revision as of 01:04, 15 May 2010
Glory
The London Transport Barnstar | ||
Awarded for shining a bright light on to the shadowy hinterland of the Metropolitan Railway's Brill branch and bringing it to the glory of GA-dom. Keep up the good work. --DavidCane (talk) 22:43, 28 April 2010 (UTC) |
- Thanks, although only three done so far. What I'm hoping is to get all the stations to GA status; I know I can get Brill Tramway and List of stations on the Brill Tramway up to FA/FL fairly easily, so as long as I can get two of the stations to FA (probably Westcott and Quainton Road, although the thought of this as an FA appeals), that will qualify it as an FT under the new rules. Then, I only need to get one of Verney, Winslow Road or Granbrough Rd to qualify the Verney branch, since I'll be able to double-count Quainton Road. After that, we're on the mainline where although the articles will be longer, it's a lot easier to find sources (and the existing articles generally need less work). Once it gets south of Aylesbury, I can always
pad things out with Betjeman quotationsprovide a valuable historical and cultural context, should the articles need a quick-and-easy expansion.
- (Well done on designing that star, BTW; how long before someone complains that the angles aren't at 45°?) – iridescent 22:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, and well done on CLR - just noticed Sandy finally promoted it. – iridescent 22:57, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks. Interested to see you're going for featured topics with these. I'm not too far from completing the components for an "Underground Electric Railways of London" Featured topic. All the UERL's tube lines are done. Just need to work up the Metropolitan District Railway and the UERL articles and I'm finished. I'd like to also add in Edgar Speyer and Albert Stanley, but then I'd need to bring Charles Yerkes up to at least GA, and most of his life history is in the US and not directly relevant to the UERL. I'm excluding the Great Northern & City and the Waterloo & City as they were under the control of others until after the creation of the LPTB. Will you be including the GN&CR as part of your MR articles set as it was in MR ownership from 1913?--DavidCane (talk) 00:54, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- If you're aiming for Yerkes, you might well be able to pester the WP:CHICAGO people into doing the US side of his career; they're very active, and he's such a key figure in the development of Chicago that they'd probably be quite willing to do it.
- Regarding the MR, I'm intentionally working inwards from Buckinghamshire; I suspect that by the end I'll be sick of the sight of them. I probably won't touch the GN&CR or the Stanmore branch—and may leave out the Circles and the H&C and stop at Baker Street (mainly because I dread the idea of cleaning up King's Cross). Watkin was involved in so many harebrained railway speculations that a full overview of his empire would stretch from the Matadi–Kinshasa Railway to the Manchester Metrolink. – iridescent 10:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- Small matter of pedancy: please don't make the (admittedly common) mistake of using the word "Verney" in isolation, because it's not a place name; see Verney Junction railway station#Opening. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, I know it's named after the man not a place and the village is "Verney Junction", not "Verney" alone; I wouldn't use it in article-space. In conversation I'd hope it's clear from context, in the same sense as people will "change trains at Clapham" even though Clapham Junction isn't actually in Clapham. – iridescent 18:07, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- That's a good idea to contact WP:CHICAGO for Yerkes. I'll probably do that at some point. His article really does deserve to be improved given that he gave London much of the Underground, Chicago The Loop and has a crater on the Moon named after him. --DavidCane (talk) 21:01, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Small matter of pedancy: please don't make the (admittedly common) mistake of using the word "Verney" in isolation, because it's not a place name; see Verney Junction railway station#Opening. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:14, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- Regarding the MR, I'm intentionally working inwards from Buckinghamshire; I suspect that by the end I'll be sick of the sight of them. I probably won't touch the GN&CR or the Stanmore branch—and may leave out the Circles and the H&C and stop at Baker Street (mainly because I dread the idea of cleaning up King's Cross). Watkin was involved in so many harebrained railway speculations that a full overview of his empire would stretch from the Matadi–Kinshasa Railway to the Manchester Metrolink. – iridescent 10:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
- You might be better off asking User:TonyTheTiger directly as to whether he can suggest someone; people don't necessarily watch project talkpages very thoroughly, but Tony's done so much in collating the Chicago articles together, he'll likely know if anyone has an interest in Yerkes and his dubious friends. – iridescent 21:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Another thought on Yerkes: it might be worth asking the astronomy people as well. Thanks to the Yerkes Observatory he's at least as significant a name in astronomy as in transport. – iridescent 15:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
DYK for Brill railway station
Materialscientist (talk) 16:03, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Before Malleus gets too caustic, I am only submitting these if they meet my "what DYK ought to be" standard of "someone who doesn't care about the topic would potentially find that fact interesting". What's interesting (to me, anyway) is that this series is creating small but statistically significant spikes in views of the articles linked from them, which is suggesting to me that at least some people actually do click on bluelinks to learn more things mentioned in the articles with which they're not familiar. – iridescent 21:33, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- (adding) Should anyone think there was once a Golden Age of DYK before "all the good ones were taken", the first five DYKs back Before the Dawn of Time were:
- Did you know that a pencil sharpener "is a device for sharpening a pencil's point by shaving the end of the pencil"?"
- ...that in 1971, Pakistani writer Eqbal Ahmad was indicted on charges of conspiracy to kidnap Henry Kissinger?
- ...that jumping plant lice and aphids are considered to be the "primitive" group within the Hemiptera order of true bugs?
- ...that the Tokyo Monorail, which travels at speeds of up to 80 kph, was constructed to coincide with the 1964 Summer Olympics?
- ...that the Balkan comic opera Ero the Joker was first performed on November 2, 1935?
- Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose – iridescent 22:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Gosh, they are very funny. Plenty of base articles to expand 5x. I do like the stats too. Funny which ones are most popular. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Generally, the ones that should really have been on ITN as they refer to current events… (Although Postman's Park actually qualifies for that list, FWIW.) AFAIK, aside from the aberration of That Day and the US presidential elections, Wife selling holds the pageview-in-a-day record. If you want a really useless piece of Wikipedia trivia, True Jesus Church is (bizarrely) the only topic to have an article on Wikipedia in every language. – iridescent 22:27, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- Gosh, they are very funny. Plenty of base articles to expand 5x. I do like the stats too. Funny which ones are most popular. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
- I suspect the church themselves did the translations as a publicity stunt; I can't imagine the Anglo-Saxon Wikipedia (still missing Fugol, rather glaringly) gets many readers for Sōþ Iesus Cirice. – iridescent 19:57, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- (adding) Good lord… – iridescent 20:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm, when I get half a chance I'll notify folks and see if we can get both fungus and bird on every one too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- If I were the WMF, I'd seriously consider killing about 75% of the foreign-language Wikipedias, or at least withdrawing financial and hardware support. Most of the dead-language and constructed-language ones are pointless intellectual-exercise time sinks, and I'm sure that in almost all cases, the Kids In Africa would be far better served by improved access to good-quality English, French, Arabic, Russian, Portuguese, Spanish and Chinese materials than pointless stubfarms like Norman Wikipedia. (At the risk of howls of protest from Ben MacDui and Malleus, I think Scots Wikipedia could safely be sent on its way as well; that's not "the first encyclopædia in the Scots leid", it's a collection of 3000 crudely translated en-wiki stubs.) – iridescent 22:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe. I forgot how funny the scots one was. I have no idea how many folks actually look at it. The universality of WP in a gazillion languages scores great kudos points, and having spent time where folks speaking minority languages are pretty proud to use them, I sorta don't mind the wee ones. Damn, is there a cornish one....? Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- But yeah, I concede it is rather hard to get enthused by, say, sco:plant.. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:52, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- Whilst I'd like to pander to the view that I'm a sort of Rab C. Nesbitt figure and reply with a haud yer wheest fit of outrage I can't disagree with the suggestion that there is a certain lack of quality on said wiki. For further mirth try sco:moose, but whether you think its variants are a genuine language or a dialect, its strength is in its spoken form as this Times article suggests. Ben MacDui 18:07, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- If I were the WMF, I'd seriously consider killing about 75% of the foreign-language Wikipedias, or at least withdrawing financial and hardware support. Most of the dead-language and constructed-language ones are pointless intellectual-exercise time sinks, and I'm sure that in almost all cases, the Kids In Africa would be far better served by improved access to good-quality English, French, Arabic, Russian, Portuguese, Spanish and Chinese materials than pointless stubfarms like Norman Wikipedia. (At the risk of howls of protest from Ben MacDui and Malleus, I think Scots Wikipedia could safely be sent on its way as well; that's not "the first encyclopædia in the Scots leid", it's a collection of 3000 crudely translated en-wiki stubs.) – iridescent 22:00, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm, when I get half a chance I'll notify folks and see if we can get both fungus and bird on every one too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:08, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've no doubt it qualifies as a living dialect, but so are plenty of others, and think on how stupid Geordie Wikipedia or Cockney Wikipedia would look. Sure, Scots used to be a "true" language, and 16th-century Scots had the same relationship to 16th-century English that modern Danish has to modern Swedish (it passes the "what language was the Bible distributed in?" test) – but Scots, English, various Irish, Norman French and (especially) Essex dialect have fused to make modern English.
- Scots Wikipedia does have the truly surreal sco:After Eight (Restaurant), though. Words fail me. – iridescent 06:46, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Must be Malleus. Well we'll all go there for a nushup one day. Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- The milkybars are on me. I am neither for nor agin a Scots Wikipedia, but I am not sure you can draw these hard-and-fast distinctions about language and dialect with any confidence. Language constantly evolves and the difference between Scottish English and Scots is simply one of degree. The former comes with an accent and a few words not commonly used elsewhere. In some parts at least the latter would be barely intelligible to a speaker of a more standard form of English. (You can test yourself here.) Also, I suspect that written versions of non RP English look "stupid" not because they are a priori foolish but because middle class people in the UK consider them to be so. In some other countries dialects are taught in schools as part of the rich cultural fabric of their country. I wonder if that nice David Cameron would consider introducing the idea? Ben MacDui 18:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Must be Malleus. Well we'll all go there for a nushup one day. Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes-and-no. Nobody (except maybe that nice Mr Cameron and his little friend Mr Clegg) is saying that everyone should speak the Queen's English all the time, but what makes Scotland a special case? Besides, the idea that one passes Berwick and the language immediately changes is dubious at best; typical Edinburgh speech is probably closer to standard-written-English than anywhere else in the world, while an outside observer probably wouldn't guess that a Glaswegian and a Shetlander came from the same continent, let alone the same country. We don't have separate projects for places like Mississippi or Singapore, where the dialect is far further down the line towards "mutually unintelligible language".
- PS. If you're looking for a cheap laugh at an earnest attempt to treat "regional accent spelt phonetically" as an separate language, it's hard to beat the "if Gerry, Alex and Dafydd can have their own language we want one too" posturing of Paisley and his pals at the Norlin Airlan Assemblie. – iridescent 15:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Really? I see several places there where my knowledge of German and Dutch was more useful than my knowledge of English for understanding the text ("ilkane" = archaic Dutch "elkeen"; "Wales" = German "Wahlen"). Ucucha 16:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the cheap laugh. Ever been to Edinburgh? Typical Edinburgh speech isn't very close to "standard-written-English" at all, at all. See the works of Irvine Welsh, for example. Inverness might be a better argument though. --John (talk) 17:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Re Ucucha: Might be what you're used to; I see "ilkane" there as cognate to the RP-English "ilk", for instance. To all extents and purposes, Ullans is just Lowland Scots with its 17th-century spellings preserved; thanks to the Scandanavian influence and relative lack of Norman penetration, Scotland held on to more Anglo-Saxon terms than did the Anglo-Saxons themselves.
- Re John: Yes, and I stand by it; pronunciation might be different to Home Counties English, but the grammar of Lothian & Fife is probably the closest in the UK to that of written English. (There's a reason Britannica comes from Edinburgh…) Treating Welch's books in Leith vernacular as representative of Edinburgh is akin to treating a Minder script or Riddley Walker as representative of south-east England. – iridescent 17:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes actually, you're right in a way, and thank you for correcting me. The distinction between grammar and pronunciation is an important one. And, thinking about it, even Welsh's characters, while speaking demotic urban Scots, often use beautifully constructed grammatical sentences. The Britannica reference is a good one. Is this perhaps a good point to mention Christopher Grieve? Perhaps Norlin Airlan merely awaits its epic poet. --John (talk) 05:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Highland English as heard in Inversneck is certainly simply a dialect. The aborigines were speaking Gaelic until relatively recently and it never had time to evolve into anything more distinct, unlike Doric. I don't know that we are particularly disagreeing here, save perhaps that I tend to celebrate the diversity to a greater degree and if folk want to spend time in promoting their cause I don't mind at all. However, I have a practical question on similar lines. I am researching the sad story of Lady Grange, who being an aristocratic lady of 18th century Edinburgh speaks a form of English. However I am puzzled by some of her turns of phrase. When she says of her husband (who had her kidnapped and banished into penury) "He told me he loved me two years or he gott me and we lived 25 years together few or non I thought so happy" can anyone confirm she is saying something like "He told me he loved me for two years before I agreed to marry him and we lived 25 years but few if any were happy."?
- Yes actually, you're right in a way, and thank you for correcting me. The distinction between grammar and pronunciation is an important one. And, thinking about it, even Welsh's characters, while speaking demotic urban Scots, often use beautifully constructed grammatical sentences. The Britannica reference is a good one. Is this perhaps a good point to mention Christopher Grieve? Perhaps Norlin Airlan merely awaits its epic poet. --John (talk) 05:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the cheap laugh. Ever been to Edinburgh? Typical Edinburgh speech isn't very close to "standard-written-English" at all, at all. See the works of Irvine Welsh, for example. Inverness might be a better argument though. --John (talk) 17:07, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Really? I see several places there where my knowledge of German and Dutch was more useful than my knowledge of English for understanding the text ("ilkane" = archaic Dutch "elkeen"; "Wales" = German "Wahlen"). Ucucha 16:26, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- She seems to me to be saying "... we lived together for 25 of the unhappiest years of my life". Malleus Fatuorum 13:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Gosh, I never knew "Clearances" was a Highland English word, could have sworn it was derived from Latin... :/ Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Different meaning in Scotland; in England it has general meanings of "smoothing the ground in preparation" and "verification"; in Scotland it refers specifically to the mass-evictions of the 18th and 19th centuries. One of those words like "evolution" that has lost its original meaning when used in relation to a specific field. – iridescent 22:37, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Gosh, I never knew "Clearances" was a Highland English word, could have sworn it was derived from Latin... :/ Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- She seems to me to be saying "... we lived together for 25 of the unhappiest years of my life". Malleus Fatuorum 13:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, there's a Cornish one. I can see more of a case for Cornish Wikipedia than Scots; Cornish is a language, albeit a dead one, and a site like that potentially serves as a teaching tool—I just can't see why the WMF should be funding it when there are more pressing things on the big projects that need financing. Regardless of whether Scots and Middle English were separate languages, the two are intermingled enough now that modern Scots is just a dialect form of Standard English; we don't have separate sites for Deep South, Manc, Singlish, Nigerian English, Scouse etc etc etc, all of which are just as variant from RP English as modern Scots. – iridescent 12:13, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
PS: Just got one of my better results at DYK with Astroloma pinifolium see talk page fro hook and stats...see drug talk sells as well. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- PS. You know there'll be at least one kid who tries to eat the damn thing now to try it for themselves? – iridescent 12:17, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
- A language is a dialect with an army and navy of course. --John (talk) 18:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Synchronicity (sincroonisty?)
In keeping with the unwritten Wikipedia rule that anything mentioned on either my or Malleus's talkpage turns up on one of the drama boards three days later, the "obvious vandalism" that is sco.wiki is now at ANI. If anyone wants to argue against the unusual suggestion that "nobody purports to speak a separate Scottish language", now's your chance. With a reasonable chance of a Scottish UDI in the next few weeks, the timing could maybe be better. – iridescent 10:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- I saw that but had nothing constructive to add to it. UDI? You think so? --John (talk) 19:15, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Compare and contrast. Unless the Shiny Faced One intends to appoint a proconsul and run Scotland as a Crown Colony, I can't see any way this will go that doesn't end in partition. – iridescent 19:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- With North Sea oil running out, I don't see partition as a sensible choice for Alex, but who knows. Certainly it might be a convenient solution to the West Lothian Question, and I suspect that there might well be a substantial body of English voters who would just think "good riddance". Malleus Fatuorum 19:46, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- If it's offered, Alex can hardly turn it down, given that he's been presenting himself as the face of independence for twenty years. Give Scotland and Wales the same kind of status Quebec and Newfoundland have within Canada, as autonomous states within the British Federation, and it preserves enough "keeping the Union" to appease the unionist element in the Party, while establishing an England with enough of a Tory majority to get all their schemes enacted. Split England into autonomous regions, and the South would be effectively a one-party state. Spain is well on the road to doing the same with Catalonia and the Basque Country, and there's Canada, Belgium, Russia headed down the same route, so it's not like there aren't precedents. – iridescent 20:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oh my. Your understanding of Canadian politics is...well, amusing. Canadians accept that our internal disputes aren't particularly well understood outside our own borders (or inside them, for that matter!). Neither Quebec nor Newfoundland and Labrador (the full name of the province) are autonomous states in any sense; they have the same responsibilities and authority as any other province. I have the general sense that Scotland and Wales have essentially similar autonomy within the United Kingdom; that is, the higher level government being responsible for nation-wide initiatives and broad brushes of major social policies, treaties, foreign policy, and defense; and the lower levels being responsible for the more front-line application of social policies, region-specific issues, and the day-to-day operations of the usual public services. Of course, I'm probably woefully uninformed about the UK... Risker (talk) 20:45, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- No; regions in England have no power over anything at all (policy is set by the UK government; there's not even an English governing body, let alone separate bodies for the regions within England). Wales has an autonomous "assembly" but with no control over finances (still set by Central Government) no effective autonomy other than a few local-interest issues (flood defences, road maintenance and such); Scotland has the Scottish Government with powers over health, transport, and the vaguely defined "home affairs". The status of Scotland and Wales within the UK is far short of the autonomy of a Canadian province, let alone a US state; the example of Canada was chosen deliberately (no Tory government would ever give them the autonomy of a US state). – iridescent 20:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Scotland retained its own legal, education and church systems at Union in 1707. It certainly doesn't seem ridiculous that, as Iridescent suggests, if England has voted Tory and Scotland has stayed Labour, we could aspire to go our separate ways and move to full independence. The divisions of the Thatcher era are often cited as the major factor in the SNP moving from lunatic fringe to credible party of government during the 1980-2007 time frame, so this development would fit that. Whether it would take the form of a Unilateral Declaration of Independence I find hard to imagine; maybe the bloodless breakup of Czechoslovakia in 1993 is a better model for us (I am an expatriate Scot) to take. Interesting times, however you look at it. --John (talk) 21:00, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Quite. Despite the Union, Scotland and England have remained separate countries in many ways, like the legal and educational systems you mention. Alex probably doesn't have any other cards to play anyway, after his SNP failed to make inroads in yesterday's election. Malleus Fatuorum 21:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think all three of us are saying the same thing in different ways. The odd status in which the Union welded together two different systems with independent currencies, laws and educational systems, but controlled by a single central government, means partition would be more like decolonisation—a clean break could happen in the time it took to organise a referendum. With the SNP and Plaid stagnant electorally but England likely to come under a Tory-DUP coalition which will be loathed in Scotland and Wales, "ourselves alone to escape the Norman yoke" is the only card the Nationalists have to play. – iridescent 21:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps many people aren't aware that Scotland even prints its own banknotes, something I don't think any Canadian provinces or US states do? Scotland is of course also different from Wales and Ireland, in that Wales and Ireland were militarily defeated by the English, but the Scottish Parliament voted for a Union with England. Malleus Fatuorum 21:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Scotland (and Flanders, Chechnya, Bavaria, Greenland, Gibraltar, Heligoland…) don't really have North American equivalents; all the separate institutions and legal structures of an independent country in place, but administered as part of a larger country to whose government they send members. The closest equivalent in North America would be one of the more powerful Indian reservations. If you think that's bad, try explaining Kaliningrad, the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, the Isle of Man, Andorra, or Alderney to someone outside Europe. – iridescent 22:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Don't they? Gibraltar and Greenland are equivalent to U.S. overseas areas like Puerto Rico and Guam (perhaps with some differences in level of autonomy, but the idea is the same), Heligoland hardly has any special status at all, Bavaria is not really constitutionally different from the other Bundeslaender and comparable to a U.S. state or Canadian province. Chechnya I'll grant you, and the federal structure of Belgium is such that you don't need to go outside Europe to find people not understanding it. Ucucha 22:24, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Try telling a Bavarian that Bavaria isn't completely different and they'll bore you senseless about how they're voluntarily in the Union and their institutions derive from their ancient traditions, not Prussia. With an autonomous government run by a party which only exists in Bavaria and a system unique among the German states (unicameral legislature, direct citizen government by referendum) it's at least as "different but equal" as Scotland. Gibraltar is officially a part of South West England for electoral purposes, although it doesn't send MPs to Westminster, only Brussels; it remains on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories, unlike Puerto Rico (although Guam is on there too). Heligoland isn't as special any more as they like to pretend but still has some notable differences to the rest of Germany, most obviously the fact that it's not a part of the European Union Value Added Tax Area and thus makes a fortune selling to
smugglerspeople bringing cigarettes and alcohol back from holidays for personal use. I'll grant you Greenland. – iridescent 22:39, 7 May 2010 (UTC)- Are't many of the things you say about Bavaria also true for Quebec? Really, I don't see how the situation is much different in reality from U.S. states, which also have different internal systems of government (Nebraska has a unicameral and nonpartisan legislature; California has lots of referendums; Vermont elects its governor for two years). All German states have unicameral parliaments, I believe (in fact, Bavaria was special before 2000 in having a Senate), and Bavaria's referendums are local only. The CSU I'll grant you, but Canada has much larger variation among the political parties in its provinces. Gibraltar's being part of South West England is only a quirk for the EP elections, and the UN list is largely meaningless. Heligoland is only outside the custom and VAT areas, which shouldn't be too hard to explain.
On the other hand, Mount Athos is unique, and I once thoroughly confused someone here in America with stories of Baarle. Ucucha 23:28, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Vermont, California and Nebraska don't have their own laws, postal systems, currency etc with all those laws created by a single government in Washington who meet on separate days to debate Vermont laws, Californian laws, and so on; likewise, Guam and Puerto Rico are under direct rule from Washington but don't sent representatives to Congress. AFAIK, since the collapse of Austria-Hungary there are no surviving unions of a similar nature to England/Scotland; France/Andorra, China/Hong Kong/Macau, Netherlands/Aruba/Dutch Antilles etc have far more independence from each other, while the French overseas départements have less. – iridescent 23:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- True, the UK situation is unique. Even Austria-Hungary was not truly similar, since the two parts still had separate parliaments and were internally autonomous; there was no one parliament that made Austrian laws one day and Hungarian laws the next. Ucucha 00:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- There is one example from history, Denmark–Norway after the 16th century; the two countries kept their own coinage and laws, but were both governed centrally from Copenhagen. I believe Finland within Russia had a similar arrangement as well.
- Finally got round to finishing Oryzomys today, while you're here; although I've only left a short comment, that's because I can't find anything to argue with, not because I didn't bother looking. – iridescent 00:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for reviewing, as always. The next rat is waiting already. It's a shame I can't include a picture of that one's head—the whiskers look truly impressive. Ucucha 01:05, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- True, the UK situation is unique. Even Austria-Hungary was not truly similar, since the two parts still had separate parliaments and were internally autonomous; there was no one parliament that made Austrian laws one day and Hungarian laws the next. Ucucha 00:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Vermont, California and Nebraska don't have their own laws, postal systems, currency etc with all those laws created by a single government in Washington who meet on separate days to debate Vermont laws, Californian laws, and so on; likewise, Guam and Puerto Rico are under direct rule from Washington but don't sent representatives to Congress. AFAIK, since the collapse of Austria-Hungary there are no surviving unions of a similar nature to England/Scotland; France/Andorra, China/Hong Kong/Macau, Netherlands/Aruba/Dutch Antilles etc have far more independence from each other, while the French overseas départements have less. – iridescent 23:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Are't many of the things you say about Bavaria also true for Quebec? Really, I don't see how the situation is much different in reality from U.S. states, which also have different internal systems of government (Nebraska has a unicameral and nonpartisan legislature; California has lots of referendums; Vermont elects its governor for two years). All German states have unicameral parliaments, I believe (in fact, Bavaria was special before 2000 in having a Senate), and Bavaria's referendums are local only. The CSU I'll grant you, but Canada has much larger variation among the political parties in its provinces. Gibraltar's being part of South West England is only a quirk for the EP elections, and the UN list is largely meaningless. Heligoland is only outside the custom and VAT areas, which shouldn't be too hard to explain.
- Try telling a Bavarian that Bavaria isn't completely different and they'll bore you senseless about how they're voluntarily in the Union and their institutions derive from their ancient traditions, not Prussia. With an autonomous government run by a party which only exists in Bavaria and a system unique among the German states (unicameral legislature, direct citizen government by referendum) it's at least as "different but equal" as Scotland. Gibraltar is officially a part of South West England for electoral purposes, although it doesn't send MPs to Westminster, only Brussels; it remains on the United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories, unlike Puerto Rico (although Guam is on there too). Heligoland isn't as special any more as they like to pretend but still has some notable differences to the rest of Germany, most obviously the fact that it's not a part of the European Union Value Added Tax Area and thus makes a fortune selling to
- Don't they? Gibraltar and Greenland are equivalent to U.S. overseas areas like Puerto Rico and Guam (perhaps with some differences in level of autonomy, but the idea is the same), Heligoland hardly has any special status at all, Bavaria is not really constitutionally different from the other Bundeslaender and comparable to a U.S. state or Canadian province. Chechnya I'll grant you, and the federal structure of Belgium is such that you don't need to go outside Europe to find people not understanding it. Ucucha 22:24, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Scotland (and Flanders, Chechnya, Bavaria, Greenland, Gibraltar, Heligoland…) don't really have North American equivalents; all the separate institutions and legal structures of an independent country in place, but administered as part of a larger country to whose government they send members. The closest equivalent in North America would be one of the more powerful Indian reservations. If you think that's bad, try explaining Kaliningrad, the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, the Isle of Man, Andorra, or Alderney to someone outside Europe. – iridescent 22:12, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps many people aren't aware that Scotland even prints its own banknotes, something I don't think any Canadian provinces or US states do? Scotland is of course also different from Wales and Ireland, in that Wales and Ireland were militarily defeated by the English, but the Scottish Parliament voted for a Union with England. Malleus Fatuorum 21:16, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think all three of us are saying the same thing in different ways. The odd status in which the Union welded together two different systems with independent currencies, laws and educational systems, but controlled by a single central government, means partition would be more like decolonisation—a clean break could happen in the time it took to organise a referendum. With the SNP and Plaid stagnant electorally but England likely to come under a Tory-DUP coalition which will be loathed in Scotland and Wales, "ourselves alone to escape the Norman yoke" is the only card the Nationalists have to play. – iridescent 21:11, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Quite. Despite the Union, Scotland and England have remained separate countries in many ways, like the legal and educational systems you mention. Alex probably doesn't have any other cards to play anyway, after his SNP failed to make inroads in yesterday's election. Malleus Fatuorum 21:07, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oh my. Your understanding of Canadian politics is...well, amusing. Canadians accept that our internal disputes aren't particularly well understood outside our own borders (or inside them, for that matter!). Neither Quebec nor Newfoundland and Labrador (the full name of the province) are autonomous states in any sense; they have the same responsibilities and authority as any other province. I have the general sense that Scotland and Wales have essentially similar autonomy within the United Kingdom; that is, the higher level government being responsible for nation-wide initiatives and broad brushes of major social policies, treaties, foreign policy, and defense; and the lower levels being responsible for the more front-line application of social policies, region-specific issues, and the day-to-day operations of the usual public services. Of course, I'm probably woefully uninformed about the UK... Risker (talk) 20:45, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- If it's offered, Alex can hardly turn it down, given that he's been presenting himself as the face of independence for twenty years. Give Scotland and Wales the same kind of status Quebec and Newfoundland have within Canada, as autonomous states within the British Federation, and it preserves enough "keeping the Union" to appease the unionist element in the Party, while establishing an England with enough of a Tory majority to get all their schemes enacted. Split England into autonomous regions, and the South would be effectively a one-party state. Spain is well on the road to doing the same with Catalonia and the Basque Country, and there's Canada, Belgium, Russia headed down the same route, so it's not like there aren't precedents. – iridescent 20:31, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- With North Sea oil running out, I don't see partition as a sensible choice for Alex, but who knows. Certainly it might be a convenient solution to the West Lothian Question, and I suspect that there might well be a substantial body of English voters who would just think "good riddance". Malleus Fatuorum 19:46, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Compare and contrast. Unless the Shiny Faced One intends to appoint a proconsul and run Scotland as a Crown Colony, I can't see any way this will go that doesn't end in partition. – iridescent 19:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
If you're feeling in a mood for more heavily vandalised rodents, the cheap laughs at ANI at the expense of sco:Moose have prompted me to take a closer look at our own Mouse. Mote/beam and all that; given that this is about as core a core-article as can be imagined when it comes to species-articles, and is in a truly ropey state ("Mice are an excellent seasonal source of protein"?) – compare Mouse to their grown-up cousins at Ferret. And is that photo in the infobox really the best we can do with what may be the single most common mammal species on the planet? – iridescent 16:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that article is on my to-do list. The problem is that "mouse" is a meaningless term: it's just applied to small rodents that are too small to be "rats" (and even that not always—Oligoryzomys, for example, are called "rats", even though they are exactly the size of a house mouse). You can't write anything biologically sensible about "small rodents known as 'mice' in English", and there are no high-quality sources which review small rodents known as "mice" in English. One solution is to simply restrict the term to the genus Mus, which includes the house mouse and a variety of Old World species. That is what Britannica does, and what our current article tries to do (according to the taxobox, at least), but I think that won't work, because we will always get people adding in things about whatever mouse occurs where they live (in the current article, for example, the piece about hantaviruses refers to Peromyscus). I think the cleanest solution is to create a separate article for Mus and make mouse into some sort of extended disambiguation page that directs people to the right article and discusses the term itself. The situation for rat is similar, by the way. Ucucha 16:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- At least with "rat" and "mouse", there are formal Rattus and Mus definitions so if a line's going to be drawn, it's clear where to draw it—likewise with other "different meanings in different places" animals like robins or badgers. If you really want to find yourself losing the will to live, discussions over naming where there's no clear convention are the place to go. These are always a good place to go if you're in the mood for an absolutely pointless argument; Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Slovenian vs Slovene) and its four long archives are a good place to start. The fact that Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)/Archive 21 exists speaks volumes, too. – iridescent 17:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Wikipedia has never been short of absolutely pointless argument. Yes, it's easy to draw that line, but if we do, be sure we'll get people who saw we are making a travesty of the English language. Robin is a dab page, by the way, and badger is as bad as mouse and rat are. Ucucha 18:16, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- At least with "rat" and "mouse", there are formal Rattus and Mus definitions so if a line's going to be drawn, it's clear where to draw it—likewise with other "different meanings in different places" animals like robins or badgers. If you really want to find yourself losing the will to live, discussions over naming where there's no clear convention are the place to go. These are always a good place to go if you're in the mood for an absolutely pointless argument; Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Slovenian vs Slovene) and its four long archives are a good place to start. The fact that Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)/Archive 21 exists speaks volumes, too. – iridescent 17:22, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
DYK for Wood Siding railway station
The DYK project (nominate) 16:02, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
GA Symbol on the top of the page
You made a comment that it is possible to have a symbol on the top of the page that indicates that it is a good article by changing something in the preferences, what is this? How can I do this? Iankap99 02:06, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Click here to open your preferences; select the "Gadgets" tab; check the "Display an assessment of an article's quality as part of the page header for each article" check box. The titles of pages will be color-coded according to article status, and the current talkpage rating immediately below each title. – iridescent 18:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Flashy FAC noms
Hi Iridescent,
I remember that you were one of several editors who recently indicated that you'd only be reviewing FACs that specifically attracted your attention. I am concerned that my recent FAC nomination is beginning to stall, and is again nearing the 'older nominations' line steadily. And since this is already the article's second FAC-ing, I'm getting anxious. I'm keenly aware that, in the current FAC backlog climate, many articles are slipping through the review cracks. I wonder if there's a way I can improve on the flashy nomination that I tossed out in an attempt to draw more attention to the article. As you are a FAC regular, I thought I'd seek your advice, in case I have to re-re-nominate. Firsfron of Ronchester 02:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Looks like Karanacs has beaten me to it… I don't entirely restrict myself to topics I know or that sell themselves flashily—I seem to have done an awful lot of rats lately—but I do generally try to restrict myself to areas I know (mainly civil engineering, music and transport). In general, I find that reviewing articles in fields I don't know is tricky, as so many areas have their own particular conventions. If you ever want me to look at one in future feel free to poke me here—I won't consider it canvassing given that I've requested it. – iridescent 19:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- I was quite surprised (but relieved) the article was promoted yesterday. Thank you for the review offer, Iridescent. I may take you up on that in the future. I agree that reviewing articles on subject where the reviewer knows nothing about the subject can be tricky; it's often useful, though, as a review can point out areas that aren't clear to the "average" reader. Thanks again, Firsfron of Ronchester 14:28, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Spelling
I noticed your note re spelling. "Vigorous" and "remilitarization" aren't American spellings; the first is correct in all dialects and the second, while more common in the US would be acceptable in UK English as well, contrary to what many people believe, even though the "-isation" version would be more common in UK Eng. Best,--John (talk) 15:16, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- "-ize" is certainly acceptable in British English use. However, the article as it stands mixes-and-matches "-ise" and "-ize"; it also mixes US-specific terms like "World War II" with spellings that are never used in US English such as "armour". The individual examples don't matter—it's beyond doubt that at the moment it mixes different variants. That's not a particular problem—it happens to most articles that have more than one active editor—but if not fixed it would be enough to get it quickfailed at FAC, which is the point under discussion. – iridescent 15:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Fun
Too, damn much fun. Greg L (talk) 20:14, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- I give it an hour before someone says the magic words "civility block". Why is it that everyone on Wikipedia is either crazy, stupid, or both? – iridescent 20:25, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
What you are seeing on Wikipedia is partly a problem of throwing people with lots of self esteem into free-for-all. Note my post about the Canadian linemen. Those guys were struck with the profound level of false self-esteem coming from the lady linemen fresh out of their classes—after all they had uniquely received their “right-tighty / lefty-loosey” training that the men never benefited of. The guys I was talking with were just rolling their eyeballs as they solemnly ate their sandwiches at lunch time. Another part of the problem, I think, Wikipedia tend to be inhabited by a disproportionate number of loaner types. One has to play team sports to A) best understand collaborative efforts, and B) appreciate one’s limitations and shortcomings. If one is a whiny ass who blames others on a 5th-grader basketball team, the other team members will quickly straighten him out; in short order, you have a “team member.” These loaner types aren’t going to get a proper straightening out here; all they’ll get is a face full of frustration as other wikipedian’s opine that their arguments lack a certain *truthiness* and *reality* to them. Greg L (talk) 21:14, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- True that. One of my pet themes is that, however much our Glorious Arbcom might say to the contrary, Wikipedia's core editor base is split into factions; to me, one of those key splits—albeit not immediately obvious—is between the "eager nerd" types on the one hand, and the "military/cops/parents of young kids/shift workers/retirees" group on the other. (While I'm not sure the research has been done, I'm confident that would be Wikipedia's core contributor base; they're the demographics who end up spending lots of time stuck indoors at unsocial hours with nothing much to do except goof around on the net.) The former tend to have spent their lives surrounded by people telling them how bright they are, and probably at school are/were the most gifted person in their class, so feel a real culture shock when they come up with people who tell them they're wrong and/or don't treat them with the respect they think they deserve. (It's not their fault—if you've spent your whole life being told how great you are, why would you doubt that your opinions matter more than other people's?) The latter group (especially the military/police and retired-academic types) have generally been part of a culture in which collaboration and respect for others are facts of life, not pithy slogans, and understanding when and when not to stand your ground in a dispute is so drummed into you that it becomes the natural way of things. (I do wonder how the "swearing is never acceptable in a work environment" types would react if they ever saw the inside of any government department, let alone a police station or military base.) – iridescent 22:12, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Very good observations. I’m… say… over 50. I would love to know how old you are. I wish we had crossed paths earlier. Greg L (talk) 23:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Under 50, but old enough to remember when computers were still scary. – iridescent 23:37, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Computers were never scary, but sadly they've now become boring. I do agree with you about this "swearing in the workplace is unacceptable" nonsense though, which seems to fuel the children of the civility police. I spent several years working with the British Army, and in that time I doubt there was even a single Anglo-Saxon expletive I didn't hear, sometimes addressed to me, sometimes not. Nobody cared much, just the way it was. Swearing at customers if you're serving burgers, or working in a call centre is clearly beyond the pale, but telling your fellow workers that they're acting like fuckwits if they actually are is productive. Malleus Fatuorum 23:51, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- PS. I've been told often enough on wikipedia that I'm acting like a fuckwit, or a dick, but I've never taken offence at that, and I wouldn't even take offence if I was called a fucking dick. Neither would I have any hesitation in telling any member of my team at work that they were taking the fucking piss if I thought that they were. Malleus Fatuorum 00:00, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- As someone who has worked in a call center, I can safely assure you that while rudeness to customers is beyond the pale, the moment that "on call" light is out there's a good chance of a stream of invective that would make a sailor blush. ("When computers were still scary" is a lyric from a particularly annoying song. "When the Commodore PET was considered advanced and Kingdom was the height of gaming sophistication" would be more accurate, albeit less pithy.) – iridescent 00:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm a manager of a call center. Iridescent's assessment is very good. Useight (talk) 00:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've always argued that the purpose of expletives is to act as intensifiers. It's not vulgarity for the sake of vulgarity, it serves a purpose, and anyone who thinks differently is a fucking ignorant American twat. There, I feel better now. Malleus Fatuorum 00:10, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Verbal punctuation" is the phrase I always use (stolen from an interview with Jerry Sadowitz). Like most things, it's only offensive to those who want to be offended, and such people will always find something to be offended by if they want to be. – iridescent 00:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- Love Sadowitz; I was quoting his line "I only hate two things, living things and inanimate objects" just the other day. Like early Lenny Bruce or even early Billy Connolly, he makes what Americans call profanity an asset because he uses it so well. --John (talk) 01:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Verbal punctuation" is the phrase I always use (stolen from an interview with Jerry Sadowitz). Like most things, it's only offensive to those who want to be offended, and such people will always find something to be offended by if they want to be. – iridescent 00:12, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've always argued that the purpose of expletives is to act as intensifiers. It's not vulgarity for the sake of vulgarity, it serves a purpose, and anyone who thinks differently is a fucking ignorant American twat. There, I feel better now. Malleus Fatuorum 00:10, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm a manager of a call center. Iridescent's assessment is very good. Useight (talk) 00:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- As someone who has worked in a call center, I can safely assure you that while rudeness to customers is beyond the pale, the moment that "on call" light is out there's a good chance of a stream of invective that would make a sailor blush. ("When computers were still scary" is a lyric from a particularly annoying song. "When the Commodore PET was considered advanced and Kingdom was the height of gaming sophistication" would be more accurate, albeit less pithy.) – iridescent 00:01, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- Under 50, but old enough to remember when computers were still scary. – iridescent 23:37, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Very good observations. I’m… say… over 50. I would love to know how old you are. I wish we had crossed paths earlier. Greg L (talk) 23:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Revert.
Don't threaten and patronize me. I was speaking the truth. That's how Wikipedia works here. If said person's edit gets reverted, they don't revert back to their version; instead, they need to be WP:BOLD and take it on the talk page. Now, I suggest you revert your edit. - Donald Duck (talk) 00:23, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- Piss off. – iridescent 00:40, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- "If said person's edit gets reverted, they don't revert back to their version; instead, they need to be WP:BOLD and take it on the talk page."—Now why don't you do that? Ucucha 00:43, 15 May 2010 (UTC)