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::In my defense, this was an article ''about'' a graphic snuff film, so I still don't see how it was "inappropriate". We have external links to [[Stile Project]], [[Liveleak]], [[Rotten.com]] etc and Jimbo doesn't feel the urge to complain; likewise, he didn't complain when we featured a [[:File:2girls1cup.png|screen capture from ''2 Girls 1 Cup'']], and only a couple of weeks ago was resoundingly defending our [[Internet Watch Foundation and Wikipedia#Response by the Wikimedia Foundation|Inalienable Right To Host Kiddy Porn]]. And is perfectly happy to employ as a media spokesman and director of Wikimedia UK [[User:David Gerard|the host of k-k-k.com, lemonparty.org, thewillpower.org, yourmom.org]]… Or am I getting too old and cynical? – ''[[User:Iridescent|<font color="#E45E05">iride</font><font color="#C1118C">scent</font>]]'' 11:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC) |
::In my defense, this was an article ''about'' a graphic snuff film, so I still don't see how it was "inappropriate". We have external links to [[Stile Project]], [[Liveleak]], [[Rotten.com]] etc and Jimbo doesn't feel the urge to complain; likewise, he didn't complain when we featured a [[:File:2girls1cup.png|screen capture from ''2 Girls 1 Cup'']], and only a couple of weeks ago was resoundingly defending our [[Internet Watch Foundation and Wikipedia#Response by the Wikimedia Foundation|Inalienable Right To Host Kiddy Porn]]. And is perfectly happy to employ as a media spokesman and director of Wikimedia UK [[User:David Gerard|the host of k-k-k.com, lemonparty.org, thewillpower.org, yourmom.org]]… Or am I getting too old and cynical? – ''[[User:Iridescent|<font color="#E45E05">iride</font><font color="#C1118C">scent</font>]]'' 11:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC) |
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|style="vertical-align: top; border-top: 1px solid white; color: #FFEFD5"| You have violated [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dnepropetrovsk_maniacs&diff=260777506&oldid=260772041 human dignity] and Jimbo ain't happy. What's even worse is that you haven't apologized to Jimbo, this makes Jimbo mad. Never stare a mad Jimbo in the eyes as it usually results in a desysopping. The Jimbo can now only be placated with a WikiLove template on his talkpage, accompanied by decorous praise. |
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:I hope you've learned your lesson you errant rapscallion. [[User:RMHED|RMHED]] ([[User talk:RMHED|talk]]) 16:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:27, 30 December 2008
Your comment on RFA talk page re FA quality
I'd like to invite you to expand your point why FA reduces quality of articles, particularly on images, per that RFA talk page comment. I'm not sure if I should be horrified, intrigued, bored, amorous, regretful, or disheveled. Too many emotions to choose from. --Moni3 (talk) 13:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'd go with disheveled. It may not be the best choice, but at least it's interesting. Risker (talk) 13:42, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- (And this is how I can tell you're not a regular reader of either my or Giano's talkpage, since this is a subject on which we can both go on at great length…)
- The FA process does, at the moment, pay very strict adherence to MOS compliance, in my opinion at the expense of usability. When it comes to images, the MOS states that image widths should not be forced, and users allowed to set the widths in their preferences. Despite the fact that WP:MOSIMAGE does contain a list of exemptions where image widths can be forced, in practice the Defenders Of The Wiki will always argue about any attempt to invoke these exceptions.
- On many articles, where the images are just there to provide "background colour" to the article, this policy works fine. However, on articles like Giano's architectural articles in which images have to be large to make specific architectural details visible and where cropping to the detail would lose the context of the building, or on geographical and transportation articles like mine, where detailed maps and annotated photographs are essential to understanding the topic, this policy breaks down. As I'm always saying in many different contexts, WP:USEFUL is not an argument to avoid; on the contrary, it's our core purpose and in my opinion, "go with what is most useful" trumps every policy (even neutrality and verifiability are just corollaries of "what is most useful?").
- The most glaring example among things I've written is Broadwater Farm – despite the fact that the Wikipedia article is probably the definitive online resource on the subject (chunks of it regularly turn up in everything from charity fundraising guides to police training manuals; while Google throws up a lot of hits, virtually all are on the 1984 riot and not on the area in general) the article failed at GA, and would certainly fail at FA, because of the forced image widths. It contains two panoramic views which would look like meaningless strips of ribbon if displayed at 180px width; in addition, one of them is annotated to label the individual buildings in the complex using absolute-positioned text, which is an absolute no-no as far as the MOS-warriors are concerned, despite the fact that a "Buildings from left to right are…" caption would be less useful and ridiculously long. The article also contains a map of the complex which – despite being necessary to the understanding of the article (as the troubled history of the area is due in large part to the "wall of buildings" cutting the central area off from the police and fire services), just looks like meaningless squiggles at an MOS-compliant 180px width (see right). I appreciate the argument that anyone who needs to see the image at larger resolution can click on it to zoom it out, but that's a false argument – the general public (which is who, at the end of the day, we're supposed to be writing for) are not going to be aware of the workings of MediaWiki, and it would not occur to them to click on the image to zoom – plus, the "click to zoom" is meaningless when the article is printed.
- This isn't just me being hypothetical; if you look at the history of the article you can see assorted well-meaning MOS compliance vigilantes resizing the images down to 180px, while the talkpage contains a lengthy diatribe from a GA reviewer lecturing me on image compliance. There are plenty of other examples of this process in action; from my articles alone, for instance, Hellingly Hospital Railway and Railway stations in Cromer contain diagrams which are virtually unreadable at 180px resolution but which I took down to that size in the knowledge that if I didn't the Reviewers would do it for me.
- There are plenty of other parts of the FA style-over-usefulness process that irk me – "footnotes must come after punctuation" is one that particularly irritates me, since the relevant part of the MOS says nothing of the sort, and going by what the Chicago Manual of Style says is meaningless in the context of an article in British/Australian/Canadian etc English, on a British/Australian/Canadian etc topic – but you asked specifically about images…
- While a lot of the regulars at FAC/GAN are genuinely helpful, they do – along with the other main "policy gone out of control" area, RFA – attract far more than their fair share of "per a strict reading of policy…" editwarriors who seem to sometimes lose sight of the fact that what Wikipedia is all about isn't a Camazotz-style slavish compliance to arbitrary rules. In some ways, I think a lot of these problems stem from a basic mistake on Jimbo and Larry's part when they used the word "encyclopedia". This is a holdover from Nupedia days, and while it may have been what they were aiming for it is not what today's Wikipedia really is. An encyclopedia is a collection of articles in a standardised format written in a similar style, with a low enough number of articles that a central style can be enforced (Larry's original FAQ talks about one day reaching 100,000 articles) whereas in practice todays Wikipedia (WP:NOT notwithstanding), containing 2,663,761 articles, is actually a de facto web host of loosely interlinked pages, with a somewhat heavier than usual level of moderation; however, many of our core process are still atavistic throwbacks to that idealised vision of Larry's in which all articles would be written to the same level and where there was a basic presumption that most contributors would be well-educated and well-qualified (it's only a few months since Jimbo said "admins should be college students or graduates"). In practice, we do have a lot of people here who don't understand the nuances and power of IAR, and have a "rules were made to always be followed" mentality that was never envisaged when our core policies were drawn up.
- Thus endeth the rant… – iridescent 15:06, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- And quite a rant it was. Once more, I have exhibited my provincialism by admitting just today I put your page on watch. My tiny little controlled world is so pleasant at times. I understand that societies such as Wikipedia, and even subcultures within them such as FAC, go through phases where some users are active, making several months or years the "Giano era" as such. I've only been somewhat active in FAC in the past year, and really, really active since April or May of '08, so some of what you're referring to I've missed. Consistency certainly is an issue in citation and images, and I find the inconsistency in how to read, for example WP:NFCC #8 troublesome. In light of these two of my experiences, I wonder if your and Giano's experiences in FAC or article assessment of GA or higher is attributable to an era or a few hard-line interpreters of image size issues. I've got a couple FAs through with varying image sizes such as Draining and development of the Everglades with this image in particular File:Florida Topo map with canals and designated Everglades areas.jpg larger than others. Though I do recall being told to make the rest of some kind of uniform size. I did, but protested with that one. However, I was not told to change the size of any images in Stonewall riots, and two are maps or building outlines dependent on size and text within. I even have a whopper wide image in Geography and ecology of the Everglades.
- I have, somewhat foolishly I suppose, begun to take on image reviews in FACs. I guess this was my primary concern in asking for your clarification. There is, at present, no one else doing image reviews, and my experience is limited to my own trial and error, and the way I interpret image guidelines. And Elcobbola trying to explain things to me. At any rate, my point is that I don't think your issues are endemic of FAC, at least at the moment. You may certainly disagree, but my view is based on my experiences. --Moni3 (talk) 15:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- Part of the problem is that so much depends on one person, at both FA and (especially) GA level. All it takes is one strict-compliance Defender Of The Wiki to latch onto the process to derail an article's candidacy at either, and unfortunately these areas attract said editors. While I generally agree with Giano's FA essay, I think he understates the chilling effect just one person like this can have. (The exact same thing happens with the "oppose, doesn't have 500 CSD-taggings" serial-opposers at RFA. I suspect you remember those.) – iridescent 15:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Break 1: On nitpicking, general fixes and assessment
A slightly different take on it. Suppose I am a solid writer. I have a good article that reads well and looks good. I want to get it to FA. When I get to FA I discover that I have to redo all of the citations, add mdash, and a bunch of other trivial work. This might take me 40+ hours of work to get it to FA quality, particularly to meet the MOS expectations that most people never notice and don't really care about. Plus, there will be a few other people who spend 10+ hours doing clean up on their own. That's 50+ hours crossing t's and dotting i's. During that same time period I could have taken 2 or 3 other articles and raised the quality on them to a level that looks good. It then has a demoralizing effect. *I* don't plan to ever push an article to FA again. It isn't worth my time/energy---I'm not going to jump through those hoops. Some people have a gift for writing and a knack for this kind of perfectionism, most don't. Most people don't bother with FA's because the bar has been set so high that most won't try a second time. Thus, they stop when the article reaches GA. GA is good, but in all honesty, not good enough. Thus, because the bar is so high at FA, the project is hurt.---Balloonman PoppaBalloon 15:32, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think you (Balloonman) and I are saying the same thing in different ways. A1 road* is just as useful (or useless) an article to the general reader whether or not it has a little star in the corner, and there are more useful things I could be doing with my life than listening to variations of "zOMG you put spaces around an em-dash!" for hours on end. And I agree that the FA bar has been raised insanely high insanely quickly; it's only four years since these were considered to be our best articles (all FAs in 2004). – iridescent 15:40, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- *Deliberately chosen as an example, as it epitomises the "boring topic which Britannica wouldn't touch with a bargepole" field where Wikipedia excels.
- I think this is where experience is helpful. I've pushed enough articles to FA (and reviewed enough) that I know the formatting intricacies, and as I write I include all of that. It doesn't take more than a second to type an mdash instead of a hyphen, and when I'm done with writing the article it doesn't need any more additional time to fix the formatting. New to FAC users generally don't know these little tricks, though, and no one has figured out a good way to help train them. I would happily support any effort to have the MOS trimmed down to a more reasonable size so we could eliminate some of the sillier rules (no date autoformatting is going to save me a lot of typing time :)). Karanacs (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- This is a salient point, Balloonman. I spent 4 hours fixing all the citations in my first FA to ensure its promotion, and was confounded by constant issues of what could be considered excessive pickiness with punctuation problems. However, I consider my entire journey starting on Wikipedia with my first edit a transformation of thought. What I thought was possible within myself is vastly different from what I do today. That is possible because of what has been asked of me from excessive pickiness. Essentially, I think that FA may be the fork in the road for many editors. I withdrew my first FA for To Kill a Mockingbird, angry, stubborn, and quite overwrought because I had already done a ton of work for it, and really - the expectations for literature articles were unclear. That's not very fair, is it? However, the ensuing addition of material and tinkering to the article makes it, in my view, an extraordinary summary of material on a very important book. I might even go so far to say it could be ranked among the most comprehensive addresses on the novel available anywhere, and it's free to boot. When I started on Wikipedia, I had no idea I would call people, places, and institutions to track down a photo, a citation, or permission to post an image. I had no idea I would ever speak to Daniel Nicoletta or Harvey Milk's nephew, or discuss issues in the articles I write with professors and experts in the field. Editors have a choice when met by this fork in the road at FA. I took both. I got angry and sullen, felt sorry for myself, then I got angrier that I might be defeated, and I got really good. My expectations changed, and I think that's possible of all editors. I wonder sometimes if expectations that this is only a free encyclopedia that anyone can edit hinders editors and admins. It could be the best source of excellent information anywhere, and it's written by the faceless masses of English-speaking people, rewarded by nothing more than their own curiosity and an occasional "attaboy". Individual editors have a choice to be challenged by FAC, to challenge it back, or choose to work on something else. When I wrote the four satellite articles about the Everglades, from scratch in a sandbox, I incorporated my previous mistakes into the writing style, emdashes and and all. Even User:Maralia was a bit adrift on not having to correct my citation foibles. --Moni3 (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- What I really wish is that we had a better defined and recognized process for A class articles. GA is really the opinion of one reviewer and the expectations there vary vastly. A class should be the next level up, but with few exceptions (such as Milhist) there is no formalized mechanism for granting A class articles. I think a lot of people would be motivated to get A class articles if we could figure out a means to do so. Actually, this raises an interesting idea... why don't we have FAC confer A class to articles that are almost there? Keep FA with it's ridiculously high expectations, which preserves FA for our truly outstanding articles, but start emphasizing the A class level. This would have a multi fold effect. First, it would get people motivated to work beyond the GA quality. Second, it would increase the prestige of the A class article. Third, it would get people exposed to the expectations at FAC. Fourth, people would be able to go to FAC and walk away with an A class article with guidance on the things that need to be done for FA. This would in turn, affect how they right in the future because more people would have positive experiences at FAC and more people would be exposed to the expectations.---Balloonman PoppaBalloon 16:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Break-in-a-break: On A-class articles, and assessment in general
- I never really understood A-class or how it works. Quite aside from anything else, the C-B-GA-A progression makes no sense to me; every bit of my intuition screams out that the "lettered" steps on the pyramid should be below the "named" steps – every other hierarchy has the named set above the numbered set, from a deck of playing cards, to the Football League, to the Tarot. Plus, GA comes with the little green blobs and an application-and-validation process; you never see "this user has 5 A-class articles" on a userpage. – iridescent 00:53, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- With VERY few exceptions, A class doesn't exist in any meaningful manner. The only place where it has any weight (IMHO) is MILHIST. At MilHist it truly is the next step up from GA, but not quite FA. At MILHIST, you will nominate an article for A Class, and people will review it (unfortunately, it is insular and the people who will read it are all interested in MilHist.) In order to pass, it has to get 3 people to support it as A class. If FAC were to start awarding that class, when they deemed an article worthy, I think it would encourage people to show up there and learn the real expectations.---Balloonman PoppaBalloon 17:25, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- We don't have enough reviewers for FAs, and you want us to pass A-class too? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's not so crazy an idea; if one thinks of A class as "almost FA", then it would inevitably be the same people reviewing both, wherever the discussion took place. Were I designing Wikipedia from scratch, I'd have a single WP:Assessed content dishing out FA/A/GA, and abolish the meaningless B/C/Start distinction. Aside from anything else, it might end the willy-waving between GA and FA which has gone on as long as I've been here. – iridescent 18:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- As a fan of both FA and GA I'd welcome anything that put an end to the unproductive willy waving between the two, or at least reduced it to little more than friendly rivalry. I've admittedly been guilty of it myself in the past, or at least guilty of being a little over-tetchy in the face of criticisms of GA, but I still don't think unifying the two is the way to go. GA and FA have different aspirations and goals, each in their own way worthy, just different. I'd agree about abolishing the largely meaningless and arbitrary distinctions between B/C/Start though. In particular I think that whoever's bright idea the new C class was must have under the influence of narcotic substances when (s)he thought that was a good idea. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:03, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- After months of discussion over short articles, context, notability, et al, I'm talked out on process reform; someone should revive Mike Christie's Content Review Workshop (link escapes me at the moment) and hash away over there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you want to name-and-shame everyone who thought C-class was a necessary change, here's your rogue's gallery. My personal opinion is that the assessment scale should be FA/GA/everything else, and that the whole assessment-scale thing was based on a need to assess articles for the CD release, which with the growth of the net is about as useful as feet on a fish. But what do I know? (FT2's "list of interests" on the assessment project page did raise a snigger in light of recent events, though.) – iridescent 19:15, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- After months of discussion over short articles, context, notability, et al, I'm talked out on process reform; someone should revive Mike Christie's Content Review Workshop (link escapes me at the moment) and hash away over there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:07, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- As a fan of both FA and GA I'd welcome anything that put an end to the unproductive willy waving between the two, or at least reduced it to little more than friendly rivalry. I've admittedly been guilty of it myself in the past, or at least guilty of being a little over-tetchy in the face of criticisms of GA, but I still don't think unifying the two is the way to go. GA and FA have different aspirations and goals, each in their own way worthy, just different. I'd agree about abolishing the largely meaningless and arbitrary distinctions between B/C/Start though. In particular I think that whoever's bright idea the new C class was must have under the influence of narcotic substances when (s)he thought that was a good idea. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:03, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- What I am proposing is that if an article fails FAC, but is close that rather than a flat out "failed RfA" that said article MIGHT be promoted to A class. As A-Class isn't really well defined, this would be a way to add meaning to A Class. It would also help soften the blow of a failed RfA. How many people would walk away from FAC in a better mood if their efforts were acknowledged by moving to A class? Eg it is "almost there"---Balloonman PoppaBalloon 16:48, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
- I assume you mean FAC, not RFA… I think that's a good idea, personally; the FAC reviewers are certainly competent to judge, it wouldn't waste any time (since they're reviewing the article anyway), and it would avoid sploshing the ugly and demoralising "this article was nominated but failed…" template across quite so many talkpages. – iridescent 16:53, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's not so crazy an idea; if one thinks of A class as "almost FA", then it would inevitably be the same people reviewing both, wherever the discussion took place. Were I designing Wikipedia from scratch, I'd have a single WP:Assessed content dishing out FA/A/GA, and abolish the meaningless B/C/Start distinction. Aside from anything else, it might end the willy-waving between GA and FA which has gone on as long as I've been here. – iridescent 18:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- We don't have enough reviewers for FAs, and you want us to pass A-class too? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:28, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- With VERY few exceptions, A class doesn't exist in any meaningful manner. The only place where it has any weight (IMHO) is MILHIST. At MilHist it truly is the next step up from GA, but not quite FA. At MILHIST, you will nominate an article for A Class, and people will review it (unfortunately, it is insular and the people who will read it are all interested in MilHist.) In order to pass, it has to get 3 people to support it as A class. If FAC were to start awarding that class, when they deemed an article worthy, I think it would encourage people to show up there and learn the real expectations.---Balloonman PoppaBalloon 17:25, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- I never really understood A-class or how it works. Quite aside from anything else, the C-B-GA-A progression makes no sense to me; every bit of my intuition screams out that the "lettered" steps on the pyramid should be below the "named" steps – every other hierarchy has the named set above the numbered set, from a deck of playing cards, to the Football League, to the Tarot. Plus, GA comes with the little green blobs and an application-and-validation process; you never see "this user has 5 A-class articles" on a userpage. – iridescent 00:53, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Break 2: On strict compliance and sex with biscuits
- A certain MfD has drawn me back sooner than I expected, so I've just seen this. A few points in no particular order. FAC has no mandate or authority to confer anything other than FA status on an article, and neither should it. With the notable exceptions of a few projects like military history, A class means rather little, and is often conferred by a single editor without any formal review whatsoever, so hardly a significant step up from the much-maligned GA. Even the Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/A-Class criteria suggest only two reviewers, something that a number of GANs routinely and increasingly get anyway. GA is certainly awarded by a single reviewer, but that doesn't mean that there's only a single reviewer involved, or that the judgment of that reviewer can't be be challenged at WP:GAR; it frequently is. And of course GA, unlike A class, has a sweeps process to check on the quality of GA articles. All in all, I think GA is, in most cases, a far more credible goal than A class.
- So far as FAC is concerned, like every other review process it suffers from a lack of reviewers. It also suffers from misconceptions, that it's inordinately skewed towards nitpicking at minor MoS issues for instance. As someone else said above, I've never seen an article fail to be promoted just because there were some MoS issues unaddressed. Also, very few (that includes reviewers) have apparently taken the trouble to read what the MoS actually says on a number of recurring themes, such as setting image sizes, or whether citations should be before or after the punctuation. It is not forbidden to specify image sizes, and the citations can be either before or after the punctuation so long as they are placed consistently throughout the article. Aside from the endemic lack of reviewers, the biggest problem I see at FAC is the rudeness of some of the comments made by reviewers. I saw an example earlier, which to paraphrase went along the lines of "I'm probably wasting my time in mentioning this, as it appears that the main editors do not understand their subject well enough to address this point, but ...". Comments like that, all too frequent at FAC, are hardly designed to creat a collegial, collaborative environment.
- Sorry this turned out so long ... so much to say ... so little time. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- Nobody ever asked me for a black and white statement on my position about MOS, but if I had to issue one, it would read thusly: The phrase 'MOS breach' constitutes the ugliest two words ever used on Wikipedia.
- Sorry this turned out so long ... so much to say ... so little time. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:52, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- I am constantly on the lookout for writers in the *precise* situation Balloonman described: if the writing is good and the content and sourcing are there, I don't give a rat's ass if the article is a hot mess from a MOS standpoint. I'll *happily* do shitty MOS work to get an article to FA because (1) I want to push a deserving article over the line but more importantly (2) I don't ever want technicalities to discourage a good writer. To that end, I often do MOS cleanup work directly on FAC articles myself, while trying to give lucid explanations for the same, gauged to the experience and frustration level of the nominator. Often, writing said explanations causes me to reevaluate my own interpretation and application of the minefield that is MOS, and I welcome that, because it is there after all to facilitate excellent articles, not to hamstring them. Yes, it takes a fair amount of work on my part, but it works, and it may be the most important thing I do on Wikipedia, because they come back for more. Sounds like I'm gearing up for a rant at WT:FAC, methinks. Maralia (talk) 18:59, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think Malleus (as usual) pretty much nails it, or at least inasmuch as I see the problem. The FAC process – like all our other allegedly broken processes was designed by and for people with an expectation that they'd have an in-depth knowledge of the policies involved. However, there are some people at FAC (and possibly even more so at GAC) who couple a strict "rules are there to be enforced" mentality with a lack of understanding of exactly what those rules say and what the legitimate reasons for disregarding them are. At the much-maligned GA, its pot luck as to who reviews the article so any given article has a good chance of avoiding these people; at FA level, so many people are involved that it's very likely that at least one "despite having a 25-1 aspect ratio there's no justification for forcing this image width" or "this book is not in my local library, therefore it is not a reliable source" opposer will latch onto any given candidate. (Not mentioning any names, but we all know them…)
- Yes, Sandy will generally disregard things like this, but it's an unpleasant experience for anyone having their work ripped to shreds for no good reason – and to a newcomer who's not familiar with the personalities involved, they have no way of knowing which of the opposes are valid MOS concerns and which are petty nitpicking. As an example, take my Hellingly Hospital Railway article I referred to earlier. This would probably pass FA with very little work – although short, it covers every aspect of the topic to the extent that any non-specialist would ever want to know, and is stable, fully MOS-compliant and fully sourced/cited. Were it to go to peer review/FAC, however, I can pretty much guarantee that someone would complain about the citations not being Harvard-style, and probably also complain about the lack of images. While I know that neither of these are actually issues, a hypothetical new editor submitting this article wouldn't necessarily know this – or know the appropriate policy pages to check – and would potentially spend hours "fixing" things that don't need to be fixed. Like RFA, one well-timed "oppose" on an FAC can torpedo a candidacy by introducing doubts, whether or not the concerns are actually legitimate. – iridescent 17:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hellingly Hospital Railway is in many ways a nice little article, and like you I've got an affection for articles on obscure topics like that. It's a way from FAC though, and not because of trivial issues like lack of images, image sizing, or MoS compliance. The lead, for instance ... but heck, you know that anyway. ;-) Where I think you are right is that the FAC process could be more supportive, or at least disallow candidates doomed to fail. The other side of the coin though is that articles shouldn't be taken to FAC to get fixed up, as that ties up the severely limited pool of reviewers ... is there any process on wikipedia that isn't broken in one way or another? --Malleus Fatuorum 01:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, I know HHR wouldn't pass at present, which is why I said "with little work" and not "with no work" – you'll notice that I've not submitted it to FAC! – but I chose it as an example as the article of mine which is most in line with the MOS. There is method in how I choose my examples; of the Lordship Lane Tryptich of The Mall Wood Green, Bruce Castle and Broadwater Farm one would be ripped to shreds by Sandy, one has too many gaps, and one is a horse that's been flogged too often already today; the road articles are in many ways just long collections of stubs stuck together in a daisy-chain; the Hammerton's Ferry, National Police Memorial etc "trivial geography of Southeast England" series are all MOS-compliant, more or less, but are too short and boring to pass FAC, even though they all IMO say anything a reasonable person would want to know and any expansion would just be padding.
- Just wait until I get Biscuit pornography written, and maybe I'll visit FAC; I would love to see this image on the Main Page, or at least the tortured arguments as to why it's unsuitable. (Yes, those are Oreos, Bourbons and Rich Teas; and yes, it's genuine. You probably don't want to open it at work, though, unless you want to get some very strange looks.) – iridescent 01:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, if I managed to get a viable stub out of Cats That Look Like Hitler I'm sure I can get a viable biscuit-sex article up. IIRC, FAC never did agree on a minimum length, so provided the references all check out and the em-dashes are all in their proper places, I trust Sandy will wave it through. – iridescent 01:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- If anyone could do it, my money would be on you. Jammie Dodger sex featured in an episode of Two Pints of Lager and a Packet of Crisps after all, now I come to think of it. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:08, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- ✓ Done – iridescent 18:50, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Break 3: On unbroken processes and easing the way of newcomers
Well, I picked a fine time to be really sick; between here, WT:RFA, and Tony's thingie, that was a lot to read. I'm as struck by where the conversation is occurring as what is being said (and that I almost missed it all). But I suppose discussion at WT:FAC has become increasingly difficult in recent months. I'm always curious about this MoS notion, since most of us just dig in and fix those things ourselves when the article meets other criteria: a FAC is not going to fail on MoS issues or image sizes (although the shape that Acid association constant article was in the first time it came through might have made me eat my words). Yep, the biggest issue at FAC right now is lack of reviewers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:21, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- The original conversation is at WT:RFA and was about whether "Successful FAC nomination" should lead to an automatic sysopping (read WP:WBFAN and just look at some of the names there to see why I don't support this idea). The only reason this has spilled over onto my talkpage is because Moni was questioning a point I made in the original discussion ("the strict compliance with WP:MOSIMAGE which some FAC reviewers insist on can reduce the usefulness of an article by rendering detailed images unusable"), and this has somehow spiralled from here. This is usually a "Giano topic" – as you know, I have virtually no dealings with FAC and most of my articles are brief railway stubs that would never come onto a reviewer's radar, and this is a subject he can go on about at very…great…length – but the last thing he needs at the moment is more drama. (Administering yet another beating to a much-flogged dead horse, but if you look at Talk:Broadwater Farm or the history of the article, you'll see exactly the "MoS notion" in action, with assorted letter-of-the-law people resizing images like the one shown at the right down to unusable sizes – there's also plenty of one of my least favorite misunderstandings-of-the-way-Wikipedia-works, "clean up; removing redlinks". As I'm trying to say somewhere in the morass above, I know and you know and all the current participants in this conversation know which concerns are genuinely significant and which are petty nitpickings or misunderstandings of the MoS on the reviewer's part, but a relative newcomer unfamiliar with FAC won't know what they can disregard – and will possibly also be intimidated by some of the personalities involved – and feel they need to "fix" every issue raised, whether or not it's to the detriment of the article.) – iridescent 15:29, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- On the notion that anyone who writes an FA should be automatically sysopped, reference Archtransit (talk · contribs) for but one example. I can't recall who put that notion forward in all the catching up I had to do yesterday, but it's misguided on many counts. The curious thing to me about the idea that FAC is a MoS-nitpicking den of evil is that I've seen so much more of that kind of silliness in other processes and from non-FAC editors, so I'm unsure why we get the bad rap. Yes, there's a danger that new nominators may be intimidated, but usually the "regulars" chime in with a voice of moderation at FAC when unreasonable demands are made. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- I can explain where I think the notions that FAC and RFA are full of nitpickers comes from; it's that everyone coming to them has invested a lot of work (I personally think we should get rid of the whole "triple crown", WP:WBFAN high-score table mentality, but it's not gonna happen), and they both have enough people participating that the chances of meeting at least one nitpicker is fairly high. For the sake of argument suppose User:Well Intentioned Newcomer submits at article to FAC which is broadly compliant but contains some niggling stylistic problems. Once it gets there:
- Malleus quietly cleans up the typos but reserves commenting on the FAC;
- Moni quietly checks out the images but reserves commenting on the FAC;
- Tony quietly standardises the units of measurement but reserves commenting on the FAC;
- Ealdgyth quietly checks out the references but reserves commenting on the FAC;
- User:Nitpicker posts "Oppose, I cannot support an article that uses the unicode ½ character when the MOS clearly states {{frac|1|1|2}} is the preferred format, if the author can't even be prepared to read WP:MOSNUM I don't know what they're doing here".
- Which of the above is likely to stick in the nominator's mind? – iridescent 16:00, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, but. It's a Wiki; how can we fix that? (Share your sentiments on Triple Crown, but think that WBFAN has some usefulness when it's not misapplied, although it frequently is. Triple Crown, on the other hand, encourages those problematic award-seeking types through other processes that receive less scrutiny than an article does at FAC.) (By the way, I used to try to intercede, and quickly, whenever I saw unreasonable demands being made at FAC, but of late, anything I say has been twisted, so I've stayed out more often, leaving intercession to others.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:08, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- I can explain where I think the notions that FAC and RFA are full of nitpickers comes from; it's that everyone coming to them has invested a lot of work (I personally think we should get rid of the whole "triple crown", WP:WBFAN high-score table mentality, but it's not gonna happen), and they both have enough people participating that the chances of meeting at least one nitpicker is fairly high. For the sake of argument suppose User:Well Intentioned Newcomer submits at article to FAC which is broadly compliant but contains some niggling stylistic problems. Once it gets there:
- Hopefully the response from Moni citing the Giano essay, telling the opposer that it probably took as long to write the oppose as it would have taken to fix that thing, and prodding him to give an opinion on the whole article. Even if I miss it, which I tend to do sometimes, there is an element in the nominator that I hope shows through, that s/he may realize some FACers are pulling for the article, and some are picky. --Moni3 (talk) 16:16, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Since I'm still fever-ish and still catching up, pls toss me a cluestick if we're talking in generalities or about a specific current FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:22, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- AFAIK we're just talking in generalities – I certainly don't have a particular one in mind.
- The process isn't fixable, in the sense that there's nothing really wrong with it, but I think a lot of the "nitpicky" perception of FAC/RFA could be cleared up were some of the more pedantic commentators dealt with more harshly (which is possible – witness how much saner RFA has got since Kurt and Majorly stopped using it as a wrestling ring). Also, whether or not it's true, a lot of people see you (plural) as an elite, and take criticism from FAC reviewers more seriously than they would from a passing editor; I'd very strongly support a realistic "what to expect" guide for those coming to FAC for the first time, either as nominators or reviewers, to make people realise that these are normal people, not the Wikipedia Gods casting thunderbolts from ivory tower somewhere. (That cuts both ways; remember how annoyed Tony got when people were hassling him for not cleaning their articles up fast enough?) As I say above, while I generally agree with Giano's essay, in this section I think he's writing from the perspective of someone familiar with the personalities involved, and underestimates how off-putting it can be to have something you've put a lot of work into nit-picked over for trivial reasons, especially when all the barnstars-and-crowns culture has possibly given one an exaggerated level of respect for said critic, and where people may be reluctant to argue with people perceived as "special". (A lot of people would be afraid to argue with you or Raul, for example, even were they to think you were clearly incorrect – instead, they'd just go off and sulk. This isn't unique to FAC by any means, but is a symptom of an exaggerated respect for "authority" on Wikipedia - look at the way this guy's tone suddenly changes when he notices the "This user is an administrator on the English Wikipedia".) Something Dereks1x/Archtransit does deserve credit for is the fact that he stood up to a particularly withering barrage of nitpicking without snapping.
- The exact same thing happens at the other area with this reputation, RFA – Moni, Karanacs and Malleus all had some fine ridiculous opposes, which were they made on a talkpage would have barely drawn any attention but in the heated context can lead to grudges, long-running grievances, and a general distaste for the whole process. (I'm still full of righteous indignation over the "oppose, candidate is an advocate for newspeak" on mine, more than a year later.) Again, this is another process that will never be "fixed" because of the inertia of seven years of history and the lack of viable alternatives. – iridescent 16:35, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Break-in-a-break: On a putative FAC guide and the Wikipedia Elite
- On the "realistic 'what to expect' guide", couldn't agree more, had it half composed in my head for a Dispatch until a series of things derailed my time, and issues at WT:FAC convinced me that I should consider taking more of a backseat. I 'spose I could still try to write it, after the holidays, but alternately, it may be better for me to be more hands off, as Raul was/is, and let the community sort things. If I write it, it continues your "A lot of people would be afraid to argue with you or Raul, for example, ... " problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:44, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- If I had to propose someone to write it, my nominees would be Giano and Malleus; there are uncontacted tribes in the Amazon rainforest whose only knowledge of Western civilisation is that Giano is not part of the Wikipedia Elite. Some of the other long-term damned editors familiar with the process (SlimVirgin, Bishonen…) could probably contribute usefully to it; I'd envisage the end product looking like a cross between a shortened version of Giano's essay and Balloonman's How to pass an RfA walkthrough. – iridescent 16:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't understand this "afraid to argue with X or Y" mindset, but p'raps that's just me. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:54, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'd write that. Having no idea who is in the Wikipedia Elite, I don't think I'm in it. Rather, I consider it a shared
delusionperception among people who wish they could be considered in it, and people who label themselves as such in order to further an agenda. --Moni3 (talk) 16:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)- Wiki Elite? :-) I went from having the power of the Oppose button (as a FAC reviewer) to the glorified bean counter, yet "they" think I'm in the "elite" :-) Did I ask for that? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:00, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- The "Wikipedia Elite" is any combination of two or more people who disagree with you on whatever your pet topic happens to be. Have none of you ever read the Wikipedia Review? – iridescent 17:06, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- WR, are you kidding? I wouldn't be caught dead around the likes of that Obesity fellow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, WR loves me: "Iridescent clearly has an intelligent attitude […], so if she's posting here, I'd like to personally flag her posts with a mental note of additional respect." – Greg Kohs – iridescent 17:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Dead link alert. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Live, but in one of the sooper-sekrit members-only fora. – iridescent 17:22, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- For the elite only? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:24, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Or "irredeemable", if you follow the WP:BADSITES line. Since I still lag well behind NYB, Cool Hand Luke and Alison on post-count, I'm not going to be too concerned. (FWIW, I think WR serves a valuable purpose in highlighting where we go wrong, and I also think a lot of the "exiles" there do have genuine grievances against WP – we do have a very unappealing habit here of treating anything we don't want to hear as "incivility" and issuing hairtrigger blocks on the flimsiest of WP:IDONTLIKEYOU pretexts.) – iridescent 17:31, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- For the elite only? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:24, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Live, but in one of the sooper-sekrit members-only fora. – iridescent 17:22, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Dead link alert. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, WR loves me: "Iridescent clearly has an intelligent attitude […], so if she's posting here, I'd like to personally flag her posts with a mental note of additional respect." – Greg Kohs – iridescent 17:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- WR, are you kidding? I wouldn't be caught dead around the likes of that Obesity fellow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- The "Wikipedia Elite" is any combination of two or more people who disagree with you on whatever your pet topic happens to be. Have none of you ever read the Wikipedia Review? – iridescent 17:06, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wiki Elite? :-) I went from having the power of the Oppose button (as a FAC reviewer) to the glorified bean counter, yet "they" think I'm in the "elite" :-) Did I ask for that? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:00, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'd write that. Having no idea who is in the Wikipedia Elite, I don't think I'm in it. Rather, I consider it a shared
- I don't either; could be that I'm still at half mast and shouldn't even be posting, or could be that I'm obtuse. But I think Iri is saying that we don't understand because we're accustomed, while it's very offputting to newcomers. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:58, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't understand this "afraid to argue with X or Y" mindset, but p'raps that's just me. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:54, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
← (Outdent, re to Sandy) Yes – and I'm not singling FAC out. It's no worse or better a process than most others; it's just that we forget just how confusing Wikipedia is to a newcomer. For all that people still talk about "ease-of-use" and "all you need to know is WP:FIVE and WP:TRIFECTA", in reality not only are we a site that uses a unique markup and syntax system, but we expect strict compliance from all users with this laundry list, a reasonable expectation of compliance with this mutually contradictory mess, plus whatever arbitrary guidelines the WikiProjects decide to impose; said compliance is then imposed by a bunch of admins, many of whom don't understand the policies themselves (we have over 200 guidelines alone; can you honestly say you've read all of them?), and consequently fall back on "I'm an admin, do as I say or you're not here to build an encyclopedia", with the usual foul-tempered consequences. The problem has more of an impact at FAC because the people coming to you have generally invested more time and effort than the cut-and-paste-from-Myspace articles on bands I delete by the shedload, so you're more likely to get negative blowback. If everyone nominating to FAC received a boilerplate template on their talkpage along the lines of "People are going to say some things that seem really nasty; most of them are genuinely trying to help, and if you really feel someone's being genuinely disruptive then talk it over with someone experienced with the process: here is a list of people who will be willing to help discuss these issues" then I think it would improve the process.
I do appreciate that I'm being somewhat hypocritical, in that I'm commentating on a process in which I never take part and on an experience I've never gone through. In an ideal world, these concerns would all be raised at peer review so the nominators would be immune to criticism by the time it reached FAC (and articles likely to attract criticism would never reach FAC), but in practice peer review looks to be following Requests for feedback down the lack-of-participants slippery slope. – iridescent 18:31, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Your comments are not hypocritical; they are thought provoking. My replies are terse because I'm seriously still under the weather. The forum for writing something to address all of this is WP:FCDW. Someone needs to do it. (I spent my first many many months on Wiki with a note on my user page saying something to the effect of "who wrote the user manual for this thing"). Wiki needs a major simplification across many pages, including MoS, but I've been singing that tune for years and no one can or will do anything about it. On the other hand, we devoted months of energy, discussion and procedures to getting dates delinked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:37, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's because it takes months of discussion to get ANYTHING done on Wikipedia. If several other organizations I was involved with weren't just as disfunctional, I'd worry more. (waves at Iri!) I used to have time to do a once a week pass through Peer Review looking at sourcing for anythign that said it was headed to FAC, but right now, time is at a premium. I like to think helping out at PR helped some over at FAC, but I just can't do it alone, it's hard enough to get the sourcing stuff done at FAC. As a rule, Wiki needs more people who pay attention to content and less to the drama of the moment. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:04, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wait until Flagged Revisions goes through; then all the IPs will stop vandalising and decide to start writing articles instead. Hey, it could happen…
- In all seriousness, it's possible that the resounding kicking the "old guard" got in the Arbcom elections could finally provide the nudge that sends the "Spirit of 2001 for ever!" Usenet and Nupedia Alte Kämpfers out of Wikipedia, freeing up the way for some major rewriting of policy and rethinking of the purpose of Wikipedia. (Unbundling the admin tools, anyone?) Jimmy Wales's giving way on the topic of flagged revisions, despite the wails of the "anyone can edit means anyone should edit" brigade, is a hopeful sign.
- Sometimes, it's hard to avoid the drama of the moment. As Sandy can testify, once you reach a certain level of visibility, then like it or not the drama comes looking for you. – iridescent 22:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
A whole new experience…
The phrase "U r prolly a virgin too. LOL I get laid 8 times a day."… A 70kb thread with what appears to be the whole of FAC commenting on it… A torrent of abuse from someone I've never heard of before… A fairly blatant troll account trying to start an argument about religion and sexuality… I feel like the winner of a competition to be Giano for the day. – iridescent 22:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, aren't you lucky! (grins) Ealdgyth - Talk 22:45, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- What was the second prize? Being Giano for two days? :lol: --Malleus Fatuorum 22:58, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- There's a fairly obvious contender for second prize… At least two Certain Editors haven't decided to grace my talkpage with their wisdom yet. – iridescent 23:00, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm no good at puzzles Iridescent. I was thoroughly confused by that recent Guido de Brueder(?) episode, and still don't understand what happened there. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- As I understand it, he posted the results of an "experiment" he'd been conducting on his userpage; someone removed it; he came to ANI to complain; someone took a closer look and realised the "experiment" consisted of systematically inserting misinformation into articles to see how long it would last, leading to him being blocked.
- I'm no good at puzzles Iridescent. I was thoroughly confused by that recent Guido de Brueder(?) episode, and still don't understand what happened there. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:05, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- There's a fairly obvious contender for second prize… At least two Certain Editors haven't decided to grace my talkpage with their wisdom yet. – iridescent 23:00, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Disclaimer: I was not involved in this, didn't follow it particularly closely, and don't know if it's true or not. The DRV – with links to all the other places the debate took place – is here, if you want to try to make sense of it. – iridescent 23:11, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe it changed, I don't know, or maybe I need to get new glasses, but about half-way through the AN report I started to read Giano, not Guido. It's clear what happened now, although I don't agree with it. Fault injection is a well-established practice in software engineering, for instance. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:40, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes but… I think (again, with that "I don't know all the circumstances" disclaimer) that Guido did himself no favours with his "I am submitting a full report on the failings of Wikipedia to the United Nations" posturing; he also, outside the bounds of the "experiment", had a history of frankly nutty obsessiveness with policy minutiae; my sole interaction with him AFAIK was in a batshit-insane dispute over whether "2009 will be a common year starting on Thursday" needed a citation. ("Technically, it violates WP:CRYSTAL, as the world might end before then".) Anyway, I think we get more than enough faults injected already! – iridescent 23:51, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Set the stopwatches
How long before our much-loved friends at New Page Patrol AFD Biscuit sex? (For those wondering what this post is doing here, there is a reason.) As many barnstars as you can carry – or WikiCookies might be more appropriate – to anyone who gets this onto the main page. – iridescent 18:02, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- ZOMG!!!!!!!! Lol. — Realist2 18:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Every single fact in there is referenced… Maybe I should submit it to FAC. – iridescent 18:09, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm with you, let's have it on the main page by February. — Realist2 18:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well, here's my first try at slipping it in. So to speak. – iridescent 18:16, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- If that gets on the main page, I'm taking a screen grab and framing it on my wall. (not literally, but yeah) J.delanoygabsadds 18:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's on my watchlist. — Realist2 18:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I've read their criteria very carefully and I can't see any reason to exclude it from DYK; it's a BLP, but it's reliably sourced. (Well, if you count Fox News and the Daily Hate as RSs.) Besides, it's a damn sight more interesting than most of the stuff that winds up in DYK. I thought the associated image might be pushing it too far, though. – iridescent 18:39, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I should steal away to the bathroom or the kitchen. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- (b) followed by (a) appears to be the correct procedure. If you haven't already, this site is a true eye-opener – select "serie negra" from the pull-down menu. (All the other sections are fascinating in their own way, too – this site is an amazing way to ratchet up your WTF-quota.) – iridescent 18:57, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I should steal away to the bathroom or the kitchen. EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I've read their criteria very carefully and I can't see any reason to exclude it from DYK; it's a BLP, but it's reliably sourced. (Well, if you count Fox News and the Daily Hate as RSs.) Besides, it's a damn sight more interesting than most of the stuff that winds up in DYK. I thought the associated image might be pushing it too far, though. – iridescent 18:39, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's on my watchlist. — Realist2 18:37, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- If that gets on the main page, I'm taking a screen grab and framing it on my wall. (not literally, but yeah) J.delanoygabsadds 18:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well, here's my first try at slipping it in. So to speak. – iridescent 18:16, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm with you, let's have it on the main page by February. — Realist2 18:11, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Every single fact in there is referenced… Maybe I should submit it to FAC. – iridescent 18:09, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
← Dear god, the image is now in line for the main page. I predict epic lulz. – iridescent 20:07, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Oh well, a DOTW has spotted it and saved the world from my Sullying Wikipedia's Good Name. Can anyone think of a non-lame hook from this that the D'sOTW will let through? (And they wonder why everyone not involved in DYK doesn't take them seriously.) – iridescent 21:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well, that didn't last long. – iridescent 00:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
And for anyone still reading this thread…
Wikipedia:Peer review/Hellingly Hospital Railway/archive1. It's not going to get to FA this side of hell freezing over, but if anyone wants to administer another passing flog to this particular dead horse, now's your chance. – iridescent 23:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Merry Christmas
Seems like as good a place as any to add my best wishes for Xmas and the New Year. I long ago forgave you Iridescent for offering me up as a sacrifical lamb at that unholy altar called RfA.</joke> --Malleus Fatuorum 20:26, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- To save multiple replies, merry Christmas to all from me too. When you're at home eating turkeys/watching the Queen (delete according to nation), think of me sitting in an airless box, staring at blue screens full of coloured dots and incomprehensible text all day. (I still maintain that first one would have passed…) – iridescent 20:29, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Whats that when its at home? [[::User:Police,Mad,Jack|Police,Mad,Jack]] ([[::User talk:Police,Mad,Jack|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Police,Mad,Jack|contribs]])☺ 20:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- What's which?
- Spending Christmas in an airless box is because not only does Defending And Protecting Our Way Of Life not only not stop for public holidays, it pays (or more accurately, you pay) impressively high antisocial-hours bonuses (I get to do it all again on New Year's Eve, too);
- my staring at blue screens full of colored dots Defends And Protects Our Way Of Life;
- incomprehensible text is what, for no good reason, both the Enemies Of Freedom and the Defenders Of Our Way Of Life are incapable of communicating in anything but, unless you think "handling demands from operational resources via radio, telephony and electronic transmission of textual and other data"1 is a more sensible phrasing than "answering the phone and checking your email";
- "the first one" is something that needn't concern you and is probably best not brought up again.
- Always glad to be of service. – iridescent 21:06, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- 1This is a genuine quote from a Lockheed user manual
- What's which?
- Whats that when its at home? [[::User:Police,Mad,Jack|Police,Mad,Jack]] ([[::User talk:Police,Mad,Jack|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Police,Mad,Jack|contribs]])☺ 20:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Break: Flagged revisions vs BLP semiprotection
- I guess that explains your opinion on biographies... anonymous users are Enemies of Freedom, aren't they... -- Gurch (talk) 23:14, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- My personal opinion – and I can see for myself on that page that I'm outvoted – is that the BLP issue, with its potential legal and bad-PR pitfalls – outweighs the "anyone can edit" ethos in this specific case. Yes, a user can register an account and get it up to autoconfirmed status, then go vandalise a BLP, but raising the bar slightly would discourage it and in my opinion the benefits would outweigh the negatives. An analogy I imagine you still remember would be that IMO the legal, technical and overall avoiding-bad-publicity-and-consequent-loss-of-donations cost of keeping Virgin Killer up outweighed the "free encyclopedia means freedom of speech" benefits. I still thing Greg's idea of semiprotecting a small batch of articles and comparing them with an unprotected control group would be an experiment well worth trying – and probably a better route to go down than the likely-unworkable Flagged Revisions – but given the source of the suggestion it would be rejected out of hand. – iridescent 23:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, well you see the problem with that is that loads of things outweigh the "anyone can edit" ethos. The whole concept of vandalism outweighs it, which is why you won't catch me, nor anyone else with sense, relying on Wikipedia or citing it for anything, and why more or less every other work in existence is not done in this way. But the whole point of this project is to steadfastly cling to "anyone can edit" in the face of ridicule; the fact that it happened to work out better than was initially expected is not a reason to go changing the rules further down the line. The Virgin Killer issue is kind of unrelated – the fact that the image in question is non-free kind of negates any arguments about "free content", and the fact that no legal action could actually have been taken (at least successfully) negates that argument, leaving behind an "I don't see the problem" on the American side and an eerie silence on the British side because they've all been autoblocked, but anyway I digress -- Gurch (talk) 23:30, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- There's also the 'slippery slope' problem, which has been in effect on Wikipedia for some time, gathering pace after anonymous users were prevented from creating articles. Despite very little change in the level of vandalism (and in the evel of editing, and a slight drop in account creation and article creation) over the last year, more restrictive measures are still gradually being introduced (such as the increase in autoconfirmation requirements that will probably increase again soon). I came across someone today who seriously believed all articles should be semi-protected; I guess people are supposed to register and then sit around doing nothing for four days (by which time they will have forgotten they registered), and then somehow make 10 informed edits to project space, before they can edit articles. And wrt to comparing a batch of unprotected articles with semi-protected ones, I can see how to numerically measure vandalism (roughly) but how do you numerically measure the amount an article has improved? (yes, you do have to do that in order that the conclusion isn't inherently fixed, though I daresay any such survey that is conducted will neglect to do so) -- Gurch (talk) 23:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm going to repeat a comment made by an extremely blocked former editor of ours once to me on another site when I made a similar point: we have to look at Wikipedia from the point of view of our readers, not from the point of view of our editors. You know and I know that Wikipedia isn't a reliable source in itself; those users who consistently see us as the first hit on every Google search don't necessarily know that, are unlikely to read the small-print disclaimer, and have no obvious reason to doubt us. Only one in eight of our articles are BLPs; I don't think the cost of changing "anyone can edit anything" to "anyone can edit 89% of our articles and can edit the remaining 11% once they've made 10 valid edits and waited a couple of days" outweighs the potential cost of another Seigenthaler or Alan Mcilwraith. As I say, I recognise that I'm in the minority here; I also recognise that while flagged revisions are a good idea in theory, they're likely to lead to an unworkable backlog and a false sense of security in practice.
- My personal opinion – and I can see for myself on that page that I'm outvoted – is that the BLP issue, with its potential legal and bad-PR pitfalls – outweighs the "anyone can edit" ethos in this specific case. Yes, a user can register an account and get it up to autoconfirmed status, then go vandalise a BLP, but raising the bar slightly would discourage it and in my opinion the benefits would outweigh the negatives. An analogy I imagine you still remember would be that IMO the legal, technical and overall avoiding-bad-publicity-and-consequent-loss-of-donations cost of keeping Virgin Killer up outweighed the "free encyclopedia means freedom of speech" benefits. I still thing Greg's idea of semiprotecting a small batch of articles and comparing them with an unprotected control group would be an experiment well worth trying – and probably a better route to go down than the likely-unworkable Flagged Revisions – but given the source of the suggestion it would be rejected out of hand. – iridescent 23:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- I guess that explains your opinion on biographies... anonymous users are Enemies of Freedom, aren't they... -- Gurch (talk) 23:14, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- WRT the "vandalism comparison" trial, I agree there needs to be some way to calculate how much useful material is added by IPs (my gut reaction would be that most IPs who genuinely want to help will create accounts if necessary whereas not as many vandals will bother, but that's just a guess). It would probably come down to dip-sample checking random articles, although "improvement" is hard to measure. I totally agree about the autoconfirmation limit – I don't understand the logic behind raising it (JarlaxleArtemis may be a disruptive asshole who's about one one-millionth as interesting as he thinks he is, but he certainly wins the award for "user who has provoked the most pointless knee-jerk reactions to try to stop him".)
- It might be worth talking to Rootology directly; he seems to have done most of the leg-work in discussion how any proposed change will work, and he's also (to his credit IMO) gone direct to most of the saner critics of Wikipedia to get their opinions on how this will impact us, instead of only parroting the party line. If you speak German (I don't) I'd love to know how well this is really working in practice on .de.wikipedia – Jimbo Wales says it's great, but Jimbo Wales says a lot of things. – iridescent 00:02, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Arbitrary break: Grawp
Actually I think JarlaxleArtemis is beaten to that title by Grawp and Willy on Wheels, who between them have brought about the page move throttle, autoconfirmation to move pages, widespread move-protection, the title blacklist, several bots, Werdna's abuse filter and abandonment of most of Wikipedia:Deny recognition, among other things. Flagged revisions on .de.wikipedia isn't exactly making things any worse, but it has essentially created a whole new maintenance task that occupies a huge amount of time that could surely be better spent elsewhere. Without it, good revisions can simply be ignored and they will stay, only the bad revisions have to be dealt with. With it, bad revisions still have to be dealt with but good revisions have to be too otherwise they will never show up to readers. Think about it in Huggle terms -- if flagged revisions was deployed for all articles, Huggle's queue would have to show all edits (minus those by administrators) so that good ones could be flagged as well as bad ones dealt with; see for yourself how much faster the "all edits" queue moves than the "filtered edits" one. At least I finally managed to get the flagged revisions extension exposed through the API (or at least will be in a few days), else sighting would be sloooooow, too -- Gurch (talk) 10:39, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- JarlaxleArtemis is Grawp. --Closedmouth (talk) 11:00, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wait... so you raised the edit count required for autoconfirmation to deal with Grawp? Man, that is dumb... :/ -- Gurch (talk) 12:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, less of the "you" – I had nothing do with it! While I can see the logic (an account has to be autoconfirmed to move pages, so make it harder to autoconfirm large numbers of accounts) I think it's a ridiculous overreaction – since we know JarlaxleArtemis/Grawp's IRL name and address, the problem would have been fully solved by one well-aimed cease-and-desist order.
- If you want a fairly confident Psychic Prediction, the next step once Flagged Revisions goes through will be to start lobbying for full protection of Category:Living people and a newly created Userright:EditBLP. Now Jimbo has lined up behind the Forces For Change, something is going to happen – the way Consensus is thinking runs along the lines of:
- Something needs to be done
- Flagged revisions are something
- Therefore flagged revisions need to be done
- I know you don't agree, but IMO semiprotection is a lot neater and causes less collateral damage than implementing a confusing policy which I doubt people will understand. Part of the beauty of Wikipedia is the simplicity and ease with which newcomers can get involved; "anyone can edit most pages, the remainder they can edit after a couple of days" is a lot easier to understand than "anyone can edit anything, but if we've not heard of you you'll be treated with suspicion and put into a quarantine zone whilst a self-appointed elite vets everything you do". To those questioning why I voted "support" to FRs on Rootology's strawpoll, I'm not opposed to bringing them in for a couple of months as an experiment – but I do expect the experiment to fail. – iridescent 15:45, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- I meant "you" as in the project's community, a group with whom I feel more and more dissociated as time passes -- Gurch (talk) 19:49, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- Anyway, "something needs to be done" is indeed the case, and I'm doing my best to get it done myself, but it's not easy. I would have made Huggle treat biographies differently by now, but there doesn't seem to be any easy way to do it. There's no way to tell from an article's title whether it's a biography or not, a complete listing of the contents of Category:Living people would take up about 5 megabytes and quickly go out of date, generating such a list at startup would take hours, and thus the only way to do it is to ask the API which category each article is in, something that cannot viably be done for every article in Huggle's filtered edits queue -- Gurch (talk) 19:54, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you want an even more impressive entry in Wikipedia's overreaction hall of shame, the fact that this conversation exists sums up everything that's wrong with Wikipedia today. I wonder how many other newcomers have gone to make their first edit to find a nice shiny "you have been blocked from editing Wikipedia because I don't like you" blocknotice, despite the fact that these "virgin killer" IP addresses are not only listed in big red letters on the blocking form, but all (obviously) locate to the UK whilst Grawp is in California? – iridescent 21:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- Wait... so you raised the edit count required for autoconfirmation to deal with Grawp? Man, that is dumb... :/ -- Gurch (talk) 12:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
← Just out of interest, what would make it easier from a technical point of view to prioritise BLP issues, assuming semi-protection is rejected and flagged revisions are trialled but fail? I appreciate Huggle can't look at the category each time, but is there any quick technical fix that would enable Huggle (or even vanilla RC) to bump BLPs to the top of the queue, or allow Huggle to monitor only BLPs? Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Living people is hopelessly slow at the moment, but it seems there ought to be some technical means to speed it up. I certainly don't have the technical ability to make any change like this, but it would be useful to know if it's possible; given the something-must-be-done agitation, something will happen, and if there's a better alternative now's the time to get people thinking about it. – iridescent 11:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Nothing really, short of adding a boolean "is BLP" field to the page table and returning it in IRC RC, API revision and recentchanges queries. And somehow I don't think the devs would consider the issue serious enough to warrant a schema change. The system I'm working on at the moment, which is rather complex and may or may not ever work, involves queueing up pages/users/revisions when "extended information" is required (information not derivable from that given in recentchanges, and thus requiring extra API queries, such as editcount and "BLP or not"), and then making a single API query for a batch of pages/users/revisions, which brings the number of queries needed on en.wikipedia down to an acceptable level, at the cost of introducing a delay between an edit being made an Huggle knowing this "extended information" in order to process it. This requires code that can take details of the information required and work out the optimum set of API queries to retrieve that information, calculate the tradeoff between waiting for more edits to conserve bandwidth and request rate and getting the information as quickly as possible, while also ensuring it doesn't make any queries so big they timeout or otherwise clobber MediaWiki into submission. Which is somewhat beyond my coding skill but I'm giving it a go anyway -- Gurch (talk) 15:38, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
AfD nomination of Biscuits and human sexuality
I have nominated Biscuits and human sexuality, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Biscuits and human sexuality. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time. Graymornings(talk) 00:22, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Gotta love Wikipedia. I can't imagine Britannica's days ever include multiple high-level contributors debating an article containing the sentence "[Madonna] blamed then-husband Guy Ritchie's lack of interest in sex on overconsumption of biscuits". – iridescent 00:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's Britannica's problem, :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 01:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's just the way the cookie crumbles… – iridescent 01:09, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's Britannica's problem, :-) --Malleus Fatuorum 01:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Assuming you mean Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Womanizer Promo Tour, I tentatively agree – this looks more like a bunch of TV appearances than a "tour" as such. "Tentatively" as I know nothing about this other than seeing her on The X Factor and wondering who on earth could think this was a good performance – for all I know "Womanizer Promo Tour" was the term her management used to describe this. Not sure I'd go so far as calling it OR (which is implied by WP:SYNTH) – more just a misnamed article. For obvious reasons, the overuse of WP:NOR is a sore topic right now with me – how about renaming it to Britney Spears live performances in 2008?
- Personally, I think WP:NOR is an unworkable policy that in its current form was rushed through largely to shut up Jon Awbrey, and has long outlived any useful purpose; like its sister policy WP:COI (forced through by Jimmy Wales at about the same time to stifle Awbrey's spiritual brother, Grek Kohs) it's completely unworkable in a system which runs on anonymous editing. (Write a press article, admit that you're the author, and cite it as a source and you're blocked for OR and COI – write the same article, don't admit that you're the author, and cite it as a source, and you get congratulations for finding this obscure press cutting. Likewise, take payment for writing a WP article and admit it and you get banned from every Wikimedia project; take payment for writing a WP article, don't admit it, and nobody ever knows. I could go on at some length on this particular topic.) – iridescent 17:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yep, that's the article I'm on about. But say it was renamed to a title like you just suggested. What would be the point, when the information (could/should/is) covered in "Womanizer (song)", "Circus (song)" and Circus (Britney Spears album) and Britney Spears.
- Personally, I think WP:NOR is an unworkable policy that in its current form was rushed through largely to shut up Jon Awbrey, and has long outlived any useful purpose; like its sister policy WP:COI (forced through by Jimmy Wales at about the same time to stifle Awbrey's spiritual brother, Grek Kohs) it's completely unworkable in a system which runs on anonymous editing. (Write a press article, admit that you're the author, and cite it as a source and you're blocked for OR and COI – write the same article, don't admit that you're the author, and cite it as a source, and you get congratulations for finding this obscure press cutting. Likewise, take payment for writing a WP article and admit it and you get banned from every Wikimedia project; take payment for writing a WP article, don't admit it, and nobody ever knows. I could go on at some length on this particular topic.) – iridescent 17:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- If it were me, I'd merge it into the Promotion subsection of Circus (Britney Spears album); that way no content is lost so nobody goes home without prizes, and it avoids the unpleasantness of an AFD (as merging falls under WP:BRD rather than WP:CONSENSUS). Once it's in the "parent" article, any unnecessary dross can be gradually trimmed away; deleting 3kb of material from a 48kb article causes less grief than deleting 3kb of material from a 5kb article. Or am I being too cynical? – iridescent 18:00, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I've come to realize WP:BOLD never applies and only makes you unpopular with...someone. Seeming as my approval rating makes this guy seem like a saint, I would rather act like a puppet to the masses. — Realist2 18:10, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Here's a GBS quote for you then Realist2: "The secret to success is to offend the greatest number of people." Who cares if it makes you unpopular? ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum 18:21, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- "I have acheived all that I could achieve in life – the love of those who have no power and the hatred of those who have all of it" (Eva Peron, an endless source for pithy quotes) – iridescent 18:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Here's a GBS quote for you then Realist2: "The secret to success is to offend the greatest number of people." Who cares if it makes you unpopular? ;-) --Malleus Fatuorum 18:21, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I've come to realize WP:BOLD never applies and only makes you unpopular with...someone. Seeming as my approval rating makes this guy seem like a saint, I would rather act like a puppet to the masses. — Realist2 18:10, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- If it were me, I'd merge it into the Promotion subsection of Circus (Britney Spears album); that way no content is lost so nobody goes home without prizes, and it avoids the unpleasantness of an AFD (as merging falls under WP:BRD rather than WP:CONSENSUS). Once it's in the "parent" article, any unnecessary dross can be gradually trimmed away; deleting 3kb of material from a 48kb article causes less grief than deleting 3kb of material from a 5kb article. Or am I being too cynical? – iridescent 18:00, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'd include WP:CONSENSUS in that list of half-baked policies. I'm firmly of the view expressed by George Bernard Shaw: "The minority is sometimes right; the majority always wrong." --Malleus Fatuorum 18:10, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- "The problem isn't that there are too many of us; the problem is that there are too many of them". Sometimes one finds oneself looking at Citizendium and thinking "maybe that isn't such a stupid idea". (Of course, one then clicks on "Random article" a few times1 or sees insanity like "Citizens, consider Recent Changes your home page!", and swiftly realises that anyone spouting the "Larry good, Jimbo bad" dogma still has some explaining to do.) – iridescent 18:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- 1These three really were the first three articles to come up on clicking Citizendium's "random page" button.
- Clicking random article here is no good either. I've abandoned that button... it's horrible. I've decided I'd rather not know just how many shitty articles we have... and I think if I even design another main page, which is doubtful, I'll remove the random page link, unless we can customize it to skip shit. It's embarrassing for the project. لennavecia 18:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Luckily, we have the coding to tell us exactly how many shitty articles we have:
- {{#expr: {{FA number}}+{{FL number}}+{{GA number}}}} articles ({{#expr: ((100*({{FA number}}+{{FL number}}+{{GA number}}))/{{NUMBEROFARTICLES:R}}) round 3}}%) are [[WP:FA|featured]] or [[WP:GA|good]].
- Luckily, we have the coding to tell us exactly how many shitty articles we have:
- and
We currently have {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} articles of which {{formatnum: {{#expr: {{Template:FA number}} + {{GA number}}}} }} don't need substantial improvement, a ratio of {{formatnum: {{round|{{#expr: {{NUMBEROFARTICLES:R}} / {{#expr: {{Template:FA number}} + {{GA number}}}} }}}} }} to one.
- and
- They produce 50564 articles (0.74%) are featured or good and We currently have 6,830,034 articles of which 46,210 don't need substantial improvement, a ratio of 148 to one respectively. (The differing figures are due to the first including FLs as "quality articles"). – iridescent 18:35, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- True, but based on your opinion of FAC I'm sure you'll be the first to agree that "not an FA or GA" is not synonymous with "shitty" -- Gurch (talk) 19:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes – and also, with the introduction of the Geobots there are a disproportionate number of articles that by definition are just one line ("Xville is a town in Yburg province, Zland"); there are also a lot of articles that will never be long enough to be GA/FA but say all that could possibly be said on the subject (most of my roads and rail stations fall squarely into this group). Plus, {{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} includes all the redirects and disambig pages. But there are plenty of GAs (and even FA) that sure-as-hell aren't good by any definition I'd use. ("Grassy expanse recreational area", anyone?) It evens out. Besides, that 0.74% figure makes for a good scare headline. Something worth bearing in mind is that that 50564 FA+FL+GA figure is about the same as the total number of articles on Citizendium (9001 at the time of writing) – iridescent 19:35, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- True, but based on your opinion of FAC I'm sure you'll be the first to agree that "not an FA or GA" is not synonymous with "shitty" -- Gurch (talk) 19:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Lara's talk page stalker shall provide:
The Barnstar of Liberty | ||
For taking the principles of Free Speech and WP:NOTCENSORED beyond to such extremes that even Jimbo Himself finds them beyond the scope of human dignity, I hearby award you this Barnstar of Liberty. Here's to keeping Wikipedia free for all graphic snuff films for all time! |
- This is in good humor, as you asked. Feel free to delete it and whack me with a WP:TROUT should this not be taken as intended. Cheers! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 02:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- In my defense, this was an article about a graphic snuff film, so I still don't see how it was "inappropriate". We have external links to Stile Project, Liveleak, Rotten.com etc and Jimbo doesn't feel the urge to complain; likewise, he didn't complain when we featured a screen capture from 2 Girls 1 Cup, and only a couple of weeks ago was resoundingly defending our Inalienable Right To Host Kiddy Porn. And is perfectly happy to employ as a media spokesman and director of Wikimedia UK the host of k-k-k.com, lemonparty.org, thewillpower.org, yourmom.org… Or am I getting too old and cynical? – iridescent 11:45, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
The I got reverted by Jimbo Barnstar of Infamy | ||
You have violated human dignity and Jimbo ain't happy. What's even worse is that you haven't apologized to Jimbo, this makes Jimbo mad. Never stare a mad Jimbo in the eyes as it usually results in a desysopping. The Jimbo can now only be placated with a WikiLove template on his talkpage, accompanied by decorous praise. |