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I've gone through everything now, except the Peter the Great section, though another pair of eyes wouldn't hurt, and one of those folks with a dash-bot would always be helpful. A very enjoyable page, Giano. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 03:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC) |
I've gone through everything now, except the Peter the Great section, though another pair of eyes wouldn't hurt, and one of those folks with a dash-bot would always be helpful. A very enjoyable page, Giano. [[User:Risker|Risker]] ([[User talk:Risker|talk]]) 03:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::I want to thank both Bishonen and Risker for their really long and laborious copyedits - I know how boring a job it can be. Could an Admin now phase this into mainspace? I think the history has to be blended somehow - God know's how. I think it needs to be there now, so that others can spot any remaining errors etc. One plan needs to be redrawn sometime, but it's not urgent. Perhaps this talk page can be archived too, so we can start afresh. If anyone moans about the two pages I am still working on in userspace linking to the page, I will put them into mainspace too as "underconstruction.". Thanks to you all Alex for helping to identify the rooms and his additions, Ian, and especially JayHenry for animating (or whatever its called) the plan, and all the many others who helped out. Thanks a bunch. Right, we need this show on the road, so do we have an Admin with the patience to do it [[User:Giano II|Giano]] ([[User talk:Giano II|talk]]) 08:39, 13 November 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:39, 13 November 2008
I am very conscious writing this page that it is a very important subject to all those who lived and live in the former Russian Empire. I have been around Wikipedia long enough to know that those editors all have differing views on various events in Russian history. I have left off writing this page for that reason for a long time, in the hope one of the (here is the first problem - I was educated like many in the west to label them all "Russians" no matter where they come from) former citizens of the USSR would write it.
What I'm trying to say, very badly, is that the Winter Palace, architecturally, is very repetitive in its design, you can see that by looking at it - it is huge but there is not a lot one can say about it beyond a few hundred words. Thus, there is not enough to make this into the page it deserves to be, without it also being a political history - the treasures should all be covered at the Hermitage page - I sounded out views on a merge and it was not wanted [1]- so without immense details of the contents - we are left only with events and people, which is no problem if they are documented correctly. I've taken this into user space, so that if I make a huge mistake, one of you can pop up on the talk page and say "Giano, you are a daft bastard - what are you saying there?" also you may have ideas, knowledge of legends, stories, which I, and the rest of us in the west have never heard about, and hopefully lots of fotos - what I'm saying is, I don't want to tread on any toes, and if I make a mistake it is ignorance not an intent to offend, and this may happen because political events have to pertain directly to the palace, so it's always going to be a sketchy view, and I learnt my history from an American point of view - which may not co-incide with yours. Do you see what I'm trying to say? Basically. I need some help here! - to keep this page completely NPOV. For example: I always thought it was the sick son that caused the Empress to withdraw, from just researching this I see she had spurned St Pete's before even her first daughter was born. You're the guys with the knowledge. I'm not sure as a page if it will work, but there is only one way to find out - You can swear at me, and put me right, but let's not let this get into mainspace with any huge mistakes or POV that will be fought over later. Opinions please. Giano (talk) 19:54, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Notes for the page
- Image:Télipalota.jpg The image shows the palace after the attempte assasination of Alexander II by Stephan Khalturin.
[2] This site contains a lot of information at odds with the reference books, I'm using. (a) Nicholas II and family spent a lot of time at the WP, the ref books say they did not. (b) The creation of the wall, and the gardens within, the site says it was Alexandra keeping people back, the ref books say the wall and gardens were built in the 1880s - long before Alexandra arrived on the scene - any body know the truth?
Identify a room a win a prize!
Help is needed Identifying rooms of the palace - all help welcome! Feel free to add any room you know! When it's completed this will be a "clicky map" hopefully leading to as many pictures of rooms as possible!
We especially need to locate because commons has images. (these are my identification so they may be wrong):
- The Amorial Hall (says here [3] it's next to S Throne Room) so could be 12. (damn we have two 12s)
- This room, possibly the private dining room
- foot of the Jordan staicase?? or a chapel?
- Image:CornersalonWinterpalace.jpg think this is room number 1, The private corner drawing room, it's on a corner, its the only unspoken corner in the private apartments and all windows and doors are in correct places - what do you think Alex. Giano (talk) 13:15, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- It is certainly this corner of the building - we can see Neva and Admiralty but according to the [4] the Nicholas I suite was on the second floor. Thus, it should be just above our 1.
- Alex, I'm concerned about the identifiation of the 3, the Aleaxandra's drawing room, it shows it with a bay window, there are no bay windows facing the Neva. Giano (talk) 07:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- I am concerned too. [5] says that the most elegant were the apartments of Alexandra Feodorovna (Charlotte of Prussia) on the first floor faced to Neva and Admiralty. Only the Malachite Room (our 4) survived. За Малахитовой гостиной открывался ряд личных покоев Александры Федоровны: Столовая, расписанная по мотивам фресок, раскопанных в Помпеях, в Италии, изящные Гостиные, Спальня, уютный Будуар, романтический Зимний Садик с журчащим фонтаном и экзотическими растениями, изысканная и роскошная Ванная комната, оформленная в мавританском стиле, словно напоенная пряными ароматами Востока. Behind the Malachite room there was a row of the priviate rooms for Alexandra Feodorovna: Pompei Dining room (This is a small room left to 28, it is notable as the place of arrest of the Temporal Government), The elegant Drawing Rooms, Bedroom, Cosy Boudoir, romantic Winter Garden and the elegant and extensive Bathroom in Mauritian style. I have assumed that maybe, just maybe the author named them in order starting from Malachite Room. I guess I was wrong. Then I feel this is the limit of googling we have to ask somebody who knows Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- Then if it's the floor above that is no problem we just say (floor above) Pompei Dining room, means neoclassical, so could well be our bombed room, as that is neoclasical and it was a dining room that was bombed. I bet Ghirlandajo knows, or can find out. The second floor is no problem, if you look at the photographs from the quai, there is a sunken ground floor, then the 1st floor, then the piano nobile (the floor we have illustrated) The bay window is a bigger problem, the Winter Palace just would not have bay windows, they would be all wrong on any of it's facades, looking at the view throught he window, I wonder if the window illustrated was trompe l'oeil? Giano (talk) 11:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- Combining [6] and [7] it looks like the place is 42 on our plan (63. Exhibition: "The Decoration of the Russian Interior in the 19th Century: The Boudoir of the 1840s-1850s") on theirs. 3 is White Drawing Room in the North-West Risolites. No idea what 1 and 2 on the first floor are (some rooms of the Alex Feodor suite I guess. Maybe indicate 1 as Nicholas's Private Drawing Room and say it is the next floor Alex Bakharev (talk) 13:01, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- Then if it's the floor above that is no problem we just say (floor above) Pompei Dining room, means neoclassical, so could well be our bombed room, as that is neoclasical and it was a dining room that was bombed. I bet Ghirlandajo knows, or can find out. The second floor is no problem, if you look at the photographs from the quai, there is a sunken ground floor, then the 1st floor, then the piano nobile (the floor we have illustrated) The bay window is a bigger problem, the Winter Palace just would not have bay windows, they would be all wrong on any of it's facades, looking at the view throught he window, I wonder if the window illustrated was trompe l'oeil? Giano (talk) 11:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- I am concerned too. [5] says that the most elegant were the apartments of Alexandra Feodorovna (Charlotte of Prussia) on the first floor faced to Neva and Admiralty. Only the Malachite Room (our 4) survived. За Малахитовой гостиной открывался ряд личных покоев Александры Федоровны: Столовая, расписанная по мотивам фресок, раскопанных в Помпеях, в Италии, изящные Гостиные, Спальня, уютный Будуар, романтический Зимний Садик с журчащим фонтаном и экзотическими растениями, изысканная и роскошная Ванная комната, оформленная в мавританском стиле, словно напоенная пряными ароматами Востока. Behind the Malachite room there was a row of the priviate rooms for Alexandra Feodorovna: Pompei Dining room (This is a small room left to 28, it is notable as the place of arrest of the Temporal Government), The elegant Drawing Rooms, Bedroom, Cosy Boudoir, romantic Winter Garden and the elegant and extensive Bathroom in Mauritian style. I have assumed that maybe, just maybe the author named them in order starting from Malachite Room. I guess I was wrong. Then I feel this is the limit of googling we have to ask somebody who knows Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- Alex, I'm concerned about the identifiation of the 3, the Aleaxandra's drawing room, it shows it with a bay window, there are no bay windows facing the Neva. Giano (talk) 07:33, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Well done, have we solved the mystery of the bay window? I am pretty sure that the room immediatly north of 24 is the Imperial study, sorry I have been distracted I am reading the life of Alexander II, and became interested in some facts off subject - I am also reading a "Av lifelong passion" which tells refers to various rooms and meetings etc. I think by the 20th century the Arab dining Room had become a audience room. Giano (talk) 13:10, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Let me translate the plan [8] :
- 1. Иорданская галерея /первый этаж/ Jordan Gallery (ground floor) [9]
- 2. Парадная (Иорданская) лестница Jordan Staircase [10]
- 3. Фельдмаршальский зал Field Marshal Hall [11]
- 4. Петровский (Малый тронный) зал Peter (Small throne) Hall [12]
- 5. Георгиевский (Большой тронный) зал St. George (Large throne) Hall [13] eng
- 6. Военная галерея 1812 года Military Gallery [14] eng
- 7. Гербовый зал Armorial Hall [15] eng
- 8. Большая церковь The Grand Church [16] eng
- 9. Александровский зал Alexander Hall [17] [18]
- 10. Залы военных картин Hall of Military Painting [19] [20]
- 11. Большая гостиная Large Drawing Room [21] eng
- 12. Белый зал White Hall [22] [23]
- 13. Октябрьская лестница October Stair Case [24] [25]
- 14. Золотая гостиная Golden Drawing Room [26] eng
- 15. Малиновый кабинет Crimson Cabinet [27]
- 16. Будуар Boudoir [28] eng
- 17. Учебная комната Study [29] eng
- 18. Спальня Bedroom [30] eng
- 19. Ротонда Rotunda [31]
- 20. Библиотека Николая II Library of Nicholas II [32] eng
- 21. Малая (Белая) столовая Small (white) dining room [33] [34]
- 22. Малахитовая гостиная Malachite Room [35] eng
- 23. Большая Арапская столовая Large Arab dining room [36]
- 24. Концертный зал Concert Hall [37] eng
- 25. Портретная галерея дома Романовых portrait Gallery of Romanovs [38]
- 26. Большой (Николаевский) зал Large (Nicholas) Hall [39] eng
- 27. Аванзал Avant-Salle [40]
Another useful map with English references is [41] it includes Hermitage
Hunting through Flickr
I have absolutely no idea how to upload photos from Flickr, but I've been hunting through there to see if there are useful interior images that already have appropriate copyright status. I'll stick links to anything I dig up here, with notations on the copyright statements.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/maggiew/2127226614/ - Creative commons/Attribution. Nice shot of (I think) the private park entrance.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ndalls/525007825/ - old photos, CC-by-SA. This link might be useful for a lot of places, from the look of it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metalchris/1422659096/in/set-72157602102560785/ - CC-SA but noncommercial, some good shots, maybe worth twisting an arm.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tims/485497547/in/photostream/ - All rights reserved, but again some good interior shots the photog might be persuaded to switch to CC-by-SA for.
I'll keep my eyes open for anything else. Risker (talk) 20:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, the throne one we already have (it was never Pete the Great's - he was dead long before it was built), I'm not sure if we can upload the others - the courtyard one, would be good because I'm currently ading a landscape plan, exactly from where that was taken, to the already uploaded plan, and working on a sub page for the palace gardens which can redirect, there are not many gardens, so it will only be a couple of hundred words and a couple of 19th century plans I have, thanks Risker - this has the makings of a half decent page. Giano (talk) 00:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- Garden photo uploaded here: Image:Winter_Palace_Garden_Entrance.jpg. Another new talent for me. Let me know if you are interested in any of those old photos for this or any other project you're working on, they have to go directly to Commons, but it was a very straightforward upload. Risker (talk) 23:43, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, the throne one we already have (it was never Pete the Great's - he was dead long before it was built), I'm not sure if we can upload the others - the courtyard one, would be good because I'm currently ading a landscape plan, exactly from where that was taken, to the already uploaded plan, and working on a sub page for the palace gardens which can redirect, there are not many gardens, so it will only be a couple of hundred words and a couple of 19th century plans I have, thanks Risker - this has the makings of a half decent page. Giano (talk) 00:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Ref as requested
<ref name="massie">''Peter the Great: His Life and World'' (Knopf, 1980) by Robert K. Massie, ISBN 0-394-50032-6</ref> Taken from the St. Petersburg article, I assume it is valid. You can copy and paste it in. Doesn't have a page number, though; I'll see if I can get one. Risker (talk) 20:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Better reference: Teeple, John B., Timelines of World History (DK Publishing, New York, Revised 2006); page 319. ISBN 0-7566-1703-0.
--Risker (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
"the green-and-white palace"
It has not always been green-and-white. Colchicum (talk) 10:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Expansion
This page is far from finished, and much planned information is still not detailed here, but any comments on the talk page are welcome. Because it is a mammoth subject, it is going to have to have various sub-pages, all of which can be united under Category: The Hermitage. I think the Winter Palace page itself will end just after the Revolution, when it became part of the Hermitage Museum, as the Hermitage page can pick up after that. Then, the individual room pages can then detail not only their history, but also their contents etc., as they are seen under The Hermitage name today.
The other question I have, is for the sake of consistency on the page, I suggest using only "Tsar and Tsaritsa" or "Emperor and Empress" (I know different rulers liked different titles) but, I think, that would make the page too confusing - any thoughts on that?. please post on talk page anybthoughts. thanks. Giano (talk) 21:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
- The article looks excellent already in my opinion and I like your proposal for creating subpages for the important individual rooms. I have a book called "Hermitage: A Biography of a Famous Museum" or something like that. I haven't read it in years, and don't know where it is exactly, but I remember thinking at the time that it was pretty good, and I could try to dig it out if you think that might help? I also have the Robert Massie book mentioned a few sections above, if you need someone to look up page numbers in that.
- As for Emperor-Empress/Tsar-Tsaritsa(ina) I tend to think Emperor-Empress is preferable for this period of history. St. Petersburg was always intended to be a European capital, and the Winter Palace was very much a creature of Imperial Russia. (Although I don't feel strongly about this, and if your preference is toward tsar, I don't see this as a concern.) --JayHenry (talk) 04:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks - I'm pleased too, the main Winter palace page is coming on quite nicely, two more big sections, some polishing and heaving cutting and editing and I thik it will be almost there.
I hope a Russian history expert is looking over my shoulder, as it is all research rather than studd I already knew, and some sources do contradict each other. All the books mentioned I actually have here on the desk beside me, including the Massie. I am going to have to be careful not to get too much on Nicholas and Alexandra, and make the page bottom heavy. I actually prefer Tsar and Tsaritsa - but I'm not that bothered so will go with opinion on the subject. I like the idea too of the room pages, as it means they can be of benefit to the State Hermitage Museum page too, don't be put off by the "user page" part please just dump any infomation and facts you have directly on the pages, and I can sort it out later, or even adopt a room if you like, I think we have images for most of them now, some of those water colours are better than the modern fotos. I'll probably keep it all in user-space untill the whole project is finished and the category created - so they can all stand together. Giano (talk) 06:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
- This sounds like fun! I will dig up this old Hermitage book and as long as it's as good as I remember, dive in. I can look over the history, not at a professorial level, but certainly as someone who's studied it. It's not right, for example, that Peter II moved the capital from Moscow to Peter in 1728. Peter I made it the de facto capital in 1712 or so, but it was Anna who officially moved it in 1732. If you're interested, there's a wonderful and generally considered authoritative history of Russian Culture called The Icon and the Axe by James H. Billington. I have a copy and will plan to see if any of it's relevant. I'll see if I can't find my Hermitage book over the weekend as well. --JayHenry (talk) 00:07, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
- I found the Hermitage Book and added a bit to this and the subpages. Do let me know if there are particular things you're looking to flesh out and I can look for those areas specifically as I read through. I'm not picky about any edits, so feel free to revise, move, or remove as you see fit. --JayHenry (talk) 05:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- No please add as much as you like to the sub-pages, I have been rather side-tracked of late, and hope to get back onto the palace later this week. Thanks a lot. Giano (talk) 07:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ah yes, well, the pressures of being a famous Wikipedian...
- I'll keep chipping away. Do you think hermitagemuseum.org is an okay site for the rooms? Also, do you think some sort of template linking the rooms would be good? Is the idea to have the clicky map link to all the room pages as well? --JayHenry (talk) 01:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- More infamous than famous! The hermitage site is OK, bit I don't want to rely too heavily on it, so that this series is subtly different, otherwaise people may as well go there rather than here - if you follow me. The template is a good idea. I hope we can find someone who can turn the plan that is practically finished now into a "clicky map" (like the one at Queluz) wich will link directly to the pages on the rooms, I am not very good at that sort of thing, but will have a go if no-one volunteers. The rooms themselves can have the clicky map too, but with their own room shaded red, as I have done here. Your help is appreciated here, I may have bitten off more than can chew here! There is no need to mention too much about the Hermotage, as that is going to have it's own page in the category, which can also include the Winter Palace contents today, as it is today part of the Hermitage. I think the modern dau Palace can be wrapped up in a few paras in the conclusion heavily referring to the Hermitage Museum. :-) Giano (talk) 06:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, tinkered with it some more and moved it to {{Winter Palace}}. If you want to change any of the links, do let me know. Right now some of the rooms link to image pages, but were you thinking that ideally we'd have them all link to subpages? Now that I've measured the rooms, it only takes a second to change where they link. I'll get back to the books and do some actual research this weekend too. Cheers! --JayHenry (talk) 17:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
It's brilliant!!!! this is just what Wikipedia needs, eventually thay can al lead to individual pages, though several will be sections of User:Giano/The Private Rooms of the Winter Palace page. This is something the Hermitage Site does not have, and will make out article more user friendly and easier to understand. Thanks so much. Giano (talk) 22:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Jay Henry, do you have any idea how we can get this plan into the text, in the same place as the other image (underneath the older plan and the same size) complete with a caption and explanatin of how to use it?
- Yep! The caption text can only be changed by editing {{Winter Palace}} directly, it seems. I went ahead and dropped it in. --JayHenry (talk) 01:56, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Questions
- The lead sentence: was the official residence of the Russian tsars. Between when and when?
- Again from the opening para: the late 1730s and 19th century ...when in the 19th c?
- Once the symbol of imperial power, it's storming in 1917 made it a symbol of the Russian Revolution. Have no idea what is meant here. What is storming (I know what the word means but no context is provided to this point), why was it once a great symbol, why did it loose that status (as 'once' implies), why did it regain that status.
- the palace was the backdrop for the Bloody Sunday massacre? Backdrop? or setting
I apologise if these seem intemperate, blunt or brief; I've been eating a lot of icecream and now have a tooth-ace. Ceoil sláinte 23:18, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
- Serves you right! I've addresses some of your points. The lead is supposed to be a summary, you have to read on for it to be fully explained,eg: for the storming section see here [42]. Giano (talk) 06:54, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- I tried that (in preview) last night, it is the wrong shape, it could stand alone as a centre pic at the top of the page (see Blenheim Palace) but the MOS people would not like it, and I'm not sure I do either - all the images have to be played about with sooner rather than later, I love the St George's Hall painting and photo comparassion, but soon someone will say one has to be in the Duma section, and I ought to show another rooms, 2 of the same room when space is limited is daft. I'm away for the rest of today, but will play with the images tonight or when I have finished writing the final 2 sections, there will be more space then to play with. Giano (talk) 07:11, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- If I may butt in, the intro picture is really not that appropriate, as it shows a lot of sky, monumental column and Palace Square, but not really much palace. There must be a better one somewhere. Oh and my humblest compliments, it's an amazing article. Kosebamse (talk) 07:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, it is a horrible lead image, but as the curent fund to send Husond, with his secret camera, to St Petersburg stands at 0.5 Euros, it appears that is the best we are going to get. Giano (talk) 18:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- I had a look on Flickr - I couldn't find anything outstanding which was freely licensed, but is Image:Winter Palace, Hermitage Museum.jpg any use? Alas it still has some tourists getting in the way, but at least it shows more palace than sky, and it shows the style of the main facade in more detail. Iain99Balderdash and piffle 19:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, nice try...but.....the problem is the place is just too bloody long for most people's cameras. It also has to be the world's most repetative buildings, I'm sure someone could computer generate the main facade and know one would know the difference - of course, i would never suggest or condone anyone doing that......... Giano (talk) 20:16, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Hee hee. I did think of suggesting that someone do this to the annoying tourists, but it's beyond my meagre Photoshop skills, as is the computer generated facade thing alas. Cheers anyway, Iain99Balderdash and piffle 20:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, nice try...but.....the problem is the place is just too bloody long for most people's cameras. It also has to be the world's most repetative buildings, I'm sure someone could computer generate the main facade and know one would know the difference - of course, i would never suggest or condone anyone doing that......... Giano (talk) 20:16, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- I had a look on Flickr - I couldn't find anything outstanding which was freely licensed, but is Image:Winter Palace, Hermitage Museum.jpg any use? Alas it still has some tourists getting in the way, but at least it shows more palace than sky, and it shows the style of the main facade in more detail. Iain99Balderdash and piffle 19:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, it is a horrible lead image, but as the curent fund to send Husond, with his secret camera, to St Petersburg stands at 0.5 Euros, it appears that is the best we are going to get. Giano (talk) 18:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- If I may butt in, the intro picture is really not that appropriate, as it shows a lot of sky, monumental column and Palace Square, but not really much palace. There must be a better one somewhere. Oh and my humblest compliments, it's an amazing article. Kosebamse (talk) 07:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- (Outdent) Tagged as All Rights reserved I'm afraid [45]. The photographer is reasonably active, so I could ask nicely and see if he's be willing to release it under a free license. Some more free ones to consider in the meantime are [46] and [47] (they can easily be cropped and straightened). Iain99Balderdash and piffle 21:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- The last one is good - is that free to use? Giano (talk) 22:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yup - I'll upload it now, then have a play on Photoshop. Give me a few minutes. Iain99Balderdash and piffle 22:09, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- OK - the original photo's here, there's a cropped version here, and there's one where I've had a quick play with the colour and lighting here (someone with more skill at such things might be able to do a better job of this than me). Hope this helps! Iain99Balderdash and piffle 22:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Yup - I'll upload it now, then have a play on Photoshop. Give me a few minutes. Iain99Balderdash and piffle 22:09, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- That is a terrific improvement - thnk you very much indeed. Giano (talk) 17:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- The last one is good - is that free to use? Giano (talk) 22:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
Source
- Re: Brumfield, William Craft. (1993). A History of Russian Architecture. New York: Cambridge University Press. No answers.com is not acceptable; but have you seen this video lecture. An hour and 10 minutes, no less. I'm sure it could be used as a source. Ceoil sláinte 02:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- Where is I use nNo answers.com? remind me. I;m sre it wil be something i can check without sitting through 70 minutes of tedium. Giano (talk) 17:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- Here - all good stuff, but really needs a better source, not sure this is acceptable. If you can get through the tedioum of the fat guy with the wig in the opening 10 minutes all is fine. I watched it from start to finish, Giano II, I hope you are not pretending about liking this buildings stuff! Ceoil sláinte 17:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- Where is I use nNo answers.com? remind me. I;m sre it wil be something i can check without sitting through 70 minutes of tedium. Giano (talk) 17:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
Help
I've seen the colour versionof this Image:PtheGspalace.jpg floating about on one of the foreign Wikipedias now I can't find it , I thought it was somewhere on the Rusian, but now I can't find it, anyone know where it is? Giano (talk) 19:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm... it doesn't seem to be on any of the foreign language articles linked from the current page. Looking at some old revisions of the Russian article, it looks like it used to contain quite a few images which are now deleted on that Wikipedia (see here for example, especially the gallery towards the bottom. As I don't know any Russian I can't tell why they were deleted, or whether one of them was likely to be the one you're looking for. Sorry. :-( Iain99Balderdash and piffle 20:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Aurora
Aurora's shot was most probably blank, so I don't think that the Aurora began her bombardment of the great Neva facade is a fair description of the situation. The damage caused by live shells would certainly be much more lasting. Furthermore, the 1917 events have been mythologized to such an extent that more sources are needed, not only Explorations in St. Petersburg and Guardian (which are certainly not the best references we could have). I am not entirely happy with In truth, the storming of the Winter palace was... (was there any?). Per WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, Wikipedians are not in a position to decide where the thruth lies. We should fairly represent all significant views found in reliable sources. Colchicum (talk) 13:07, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- The ref used [48] says quite clearly that shots were fired, but actually I thought I had written that the guns were trained not fired, I see I was not concentrating and wrote fired. so we will leave it as trained to allow for the benefit of the doubt. I would noyt worry too much about "in truth" the page is going through its 100th re-write, and will probably have a 100 more before it foes into mainspace. Giano (talk) 14:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Copy editing notes
- Second image in "The last Tsars (1855–1905)": Suggest determining exactly who "watshername" is, and adding it to the caption. I note the article on Alexis I identifies two consorts, so I'll leave you to figure out which one is depicted. Done
- Peter the Great's Winter Palace (1711–1753): A diplomat of the time who described the city as "a heap of villages linked together"... - you note that you were looking for a reference for these quotes. Done
- Peter the Great's Winter Palace (1711–1753): Clarify where Trezzini fits in the order of the building of different WPs. Done
- Anna (1730–1740): Clarify where Rastrelli fits in the order of the building of different WPs (he is said to be building the fourth WP). Done
More to come tomorrow. Risker (talk) 05:55, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Possibly a subpage
- Egyptian Collection of the Hermitage Museum. Colchicum (talk) 21:38, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Yep and no! That page belongs, I think, as a sub page of the Hermitage Museum, which all the pages I am writing are also, including the big Winter Palace page. My idea is that the big Winter Palace page has the history up until it ceased to be the Imperial Winter Palace, once it ceased to be Imperial, the Hermitage page takes over - as it did in real life. However, all the Winter Palace little sub pages concerning rooms can be brought right up to date and their present use and contents listed. Does that make sense? Giano (talk) 21:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- Yes. As a side note, to avoid confusion, could you please clarify in the articles you create that the rooms in question are located on the first floor? There are many interesting things on the ground and 2nd floor as well. Colchicum (talk) 16:11, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
More copy editing notes
A few more points.
- Lead
- ..."the greatest hangover in history"... - quote, needs a reference. I remember you had it referenced at an earlier point, so it's somewhere in the history.
- The palace 1725–1855
- Trezzini, who had designed the Summer Palace in 1711, was one of the greatest exponents of the Petrine Baroque style, new new design incorporated Mattarnovy's existing palace, making it one of the two terminating pavilions of the new, and third, Winter Palace.
- Not sure I have the right context here, so I am hesitant to rebuild this sentence.
- Trezzini, who had designed the Summer Palace in 1711, was one of the greatest exponents of the Petrine Baroque style, now completly redeigned and expanded Mattarnovy's existing Winter Palace to such an extent that Mattarnovy's entire palace became just one of the two terminating pavilions of the new, and third, Winter Palace. Giano (talk) 07:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC) Done
- Not sure I have the right context here, so I am hesitant to rebuild this sentence.
- The fire of 1837
- ...a fire broke out, possibly because Montferrand had left pieces of wood too close to the chimney (of an apothecary stove and several smaller fireplaces) hidden in the wall between the two rooms, where the fire originated.
- It's not clear what the chimney was attached to, based on this; some clarification perhaps?
- The term "possibly because" probably means this sentence requires a reference Done
- Imperial Hermitage Museum
- ....what the public saw was a huge array of art, while only a fraction of the Imperial collection, at the Winter Palace and other Imperial palaces, remained closed to the viewing public.
I've gone through everything now, except the Peter the Great section, though another pair of eyes wouldn't hurt, and one of those folks with a dash-bot would always be helpful. A very enjoyable page, Giano. Risker (talk) 03:42, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
- I want to thank both Bishonen and Risker for their really long and laborious copyedits - I know how boring a job it can be. Could an Admin now phase this into mainspace? I think the history has to be blended somehow - God know's how. I think it needs to be there now, so that others can spot any remaining errors etc. One plan needs to be redrawn sometime, but it's not urgent. Perhaps this talk page can be archived too, so we can start afresh. If anyone moans about the two pages I am still working on in userspace linking to the page, I will put them into mainspace too as "underconstruction.". Thanks to you all Alex for helping to identify the rooms and his additions, Ian, and especially JayHenry for animating (or whatever its called) the plan, and all the many others who helped out. Thanks a bunch. Right, we need this show on the road, so do we have an Admin with the patience to do it Giano (talk) 08:39, 13 November 2008 (UTC)