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== No disruption, not making a point == |
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I am following the policy set forth at the developer's request. I have been accommodating of your views, and I'm implementing Infobox_Language only where I can guarantee that no article content is lost. Please stop reverting this effort, because the only disruption being caused is your re-insertion of meta-templates and the only point being made is that you are the ''de facto'' [[WP:OWN|owner]] of the old language template. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 20:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:22, 5 January 2006
Welcome to my discussion page. Please post new messages to the bottom of the page and use headings when starting new discussion topics.
Please also sign and date your entries by inserting --~~~~ at the end. Thank you.
Old discussion topics can be found in the archive.
Elazig Province
Hi Garzo, i want to ask why you revert my edit about Elazig Province. As you see in the article it's a provience of Turkey.--Ugur Basak 14:03, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- You removed the article from Category:Kurdistan. The article on Kurdistan says, "Kurdistan is both the name of a geographic region and a cultural region in the Middle East named after the Kurds, a large ethnic group living in parts of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Armenia, and Syria". That article also includes Image:Kurdish lands 92 cropped.jpg, which shows Elazığ as part of this region. Therefore it is reasonable to add the article to this category. It seems that your motive is entirely political. You are using the edit summary rvv, which stands for 'revert vandalism'. This is a misleading statement, as your edit concerns the point of view of the article rather than vandalism. Please explain your reasoning, but be aware that politically-motivated editing and misleading edit summaries are not acceptable here. --Gareth Hughes 16:06, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- Not political. I don't deny there is a Kurdish population there. Just Kurdistan is not fully suitable for it, may be a category like "Kurdish inhabited areas" is more suitable.--Ugur Basak 16:30, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- I think Heja Helweda added the category. I realise that the name does the impression of being a political entity, but Kurdish inhabited areas is the definition of Kurdistan, as there is no political entity apart from the Kurdish Autonomous Region. I think the category is reasonable, but maybe you should talk to Heja about the name. --Gareth Hughes 16:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- It's not so big problem for me. But Kurdistan category seems a bit general, Kurdish inhabitad areas seems better for me. That's my opinion. In current category there are historical cities, kingdoms etc. and current cities.--Ugur Basak 17:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I wonder why you are reverting them back... The answer should be either becasue you know this is the truth and correcitng or you consider last edits as vandalism. May I ask which one? --Dbl2010 22:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- I explained exactly why on your talk page: it is wholly reasonable that the traditional regions inhabited by Kurds are placed in Category:Kurdistan. I have had this conversation already with Ugur Basak above. --Gareth Hughes 23:17, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- I didnt say that I removed it because geographıcal or not. Please do not judge my acts by others words. As an administrator you should be less political. --Dbl2010 01:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello you Garzo guy. Well, then this turns out that you are a real humanist, or not? You think that by adding those articles into the category Kurdistan you become a neutral human. But what you cannot think about is there is no country named Kurdistan. You know, by adding a suffix of -istan one can make every single word a country name. For example, if I call the west of China as Turkistan, this will mean that there is a Turkish country there. And anyone can call it Turkistan since there is a significant Turkish population in the western China if one thinks in the same manner as you.
Kurdistan is a country name and whoever calls anywhere of the world as Kurdistan means the separation of Turkey and relevant countries. This is very straightly considered as separatism and if you still think that Kurdistan should be stated there, you are qualified for being a very clever guy maybe in UK, but not in TR. --85.107.74.82 17:15, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Just thought you should know that the Help Desk mailing list is getting hit by several spammers (or one person with multiple email addresses), all using the exact same wording, calling you names for not letting them vandalize Category:Kurdistan. Zoe (216.234.130.130 17:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC))
- I'm sorry about that, Zoe. I think I've managed to broker a compromise that amenable users of both sides can agree on. However, there are a few who just don't want to work together on this. I put a 24-hour block on one user today who repeatedly removed articles from the category: that's probably the source of the nonsense. --Gareth Hughes 18:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
- No need to apologize, it's certainly not your fault. I was just giving you a heads up in case there are more vandalism attempts. I suggested that spamming the mailing list with their complaint was not the way to get resolution on the dispute. Zoe (216.234.130.130 19:00, 22 December 2005 (UTC))
- Ağrı Province
- Batman Province
- Bingöl Province
- Bitlis Province
- Diyarbakır Province
- Elazig Province
- Erzincan Province
- Erzurum Province
- Gaziantep Province
- Hakkari Province
- Kahramanmaraş Province
- Kars Province
- Malatya Province
- Mardin Province
- Siirt Province
- Tunceli Province
- Şanlıurfa Province
These are the list of provinces that you are defending to death to put it under Category:Kurdistan and you are telling that it is not a mistake to put them in a traditional and populated region. And you are also reverting them back and give same reason to all people prejudicedly without asking. But I wonder if you ever have thought following way: Those provinces has pure human drawen borders by goverment as political regions. And they build a political map of a country. A culturel traditional etc. map cannot have exact borders.
- How someone can use these politicaly drawen provinces to as pieces to build a non political region?
- How some one can say that left side of that political border is a cultural region and right side another? How can a virtual border can be represnted with exact points?????????????????
I believe on facts. Tell me a good fact please. Thanks. Dbl2010 12:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- The removal of this category is mostly done by accounts or anons who contribute nothing else but remove the category. Those who have opposed the category have also been involved in various acts of vandalism, which does not predispose me to their argument. In conversation with Heja Helweda below, he pointed out why the category is appropriate. --Gareth Hughes 23:47, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- You completely avoided the main question and just took the part you can answer. Please tell me about political and cultural maps part. Dbl2010 23:52, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Nasrani
Does your expertise extend to the Indian branch of Syriac Christianity? There is a confusing number of redirects [1] and the target articles get switched back and forth [2]. --Pjacobi
Requested move
Hi. Would you please be able to move Selonian (language) to Selonian language for me? The Wiki stoped me from doing it and I noticed that you're an admin. Thanks. --Khoikhoi 00:48, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- All done: no problem: glad to be of service. --Gareth Hughes 00:52, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks again! --Khoikhoi 00:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Hindu/Indo/Arabic numerals
Hi Garzo. I don't know if you have any idea about the correct naming of the numerals 1,2,3... There's a vote going on at Talk:Hindu-Arabic numerals#Voting whether to move it back to Arabic numerals or keep it Hindu-Arabic numerals. Cheers -- Svest 01:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC) Wiki me up™
Assyrian, Chaldean, Syriac, Aramean, etc.
I just wanted to comment that according to the United States Census these groups all comprise one ethnic group (non-Arab). It's officially listed as Syriac/Assyrian/Chaldean on the report. http://www.chaldeansonline.net/nabu/census2000.html.
I'm interested in improving all these categories in anyway possible so I'll involve myself in anything including the miniproject.
Virtual Thai Keyboard
Hi priest,
May I know why you deleted the link (MOG Software: Virtual Thai Keyboard) on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_language#External_links ?
I think this freeware (a virtual Thai keyboard) is worth it: it may deserve to be mentionned in this article.
bye
The issue of Kurdish area or Kurdistan
Hi,
I think that based on historical facts, the region has been called by the name "Kurdistan", at least from 12th century. Both Safavid and Ottoman Empires had provinces called by that name. Moreover, in Kurdish language, this name("Kurdistan") just means "Kurdish inhabited area or region" (not a state). On the other hand, I understand the sensitivity of some of the editors, and the best way to reach a compromise is to argue that "the name in question, does not refer to a political entity, just a geo-cultural region, as stated in the page itself. We may also include a short explanation (in Kurdistan's page) that the name is not recognized by the Turkish and Syrian states, however Iraqi and Iranian states do recognize it, and refer to some of their lands, in official documents, by that name."
I hope this will convince them in keeping the name as it is.
Heja Helweda 23:26, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
ABOUT MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE
HI, I SEE, YOU ARE LINGUIST...? BUT,WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE (NOT GREECE,BULGARIAN,SERBIAN....)? HAVE YOU READ ANY MACEDONIAN BOOK,SONG? SLAVS? WHERE ARE FROM "SLAVS"? WHAT ARCHEOLOGY......ABOUT "SLAVS"? GOD IS GREAT,BUT RNA,DNK MEDICAL RESULTS TODAY ARE:MACEDONIANS ARE "BROTHERS IN BLOOD" WITH OLDER MEDITERANIAN PEOPLE GROUPS. ARE "SLAVS" MEDITERANIANS....? ROMANTIC IDEA FROM 19-20 CENTURY IS DEAD.THANK YOU GOD FOR THIS. ARCHEOLOGY.....PEOPLE ARE AT MACEDONIA BETWEN 600.000-240.000 y. C14 (CARBON)TEST........MACEDONIAN HAVE VILLAGES 7260 y. MAZ D` AZIL CAVE (FRANCE) SCRIPTS.....13000 y......?WHY FRANCE? OSINCANI-SKOPJE-MACEDONIA SCRIPTS.....9.000 y..... GOVRLEVO-SKOPJE-MACEDONIA SCRIPTS.....9.000 y..... ALL SCRIPTS ARE WRITEN WITH IDENTICAL FONETIC ALPHABET. MY 9 YEARS OLD SON RECOGNIZE WORDS....HOW? ANSWER IS SIMPLE.....WE ARE MACEDONIANS ABORIGINAL......FROM PRA-HISTORY (MACEDONIAN WORD) OLDEST SCRIPTS FOR WORD MACEDONIA IS 7.000 YEARS OLD. WRITER?....YES.... PIR MAKEDONSKI.....NAME PIR..LIKE PIREI (CITY),PIRIN PLANINA (MOUNTAIN),PIRINEAS (MOUNTAINS) YOU UNDERSTAND ME ABOUT......? OR YOU "KNOW SO MUCH" ABOUT "SLAVS" "SOUTHSLAVS"? MAYBE ABOUT "HELENIZAM" "HELLENIC" "GREECE" "GREEK MACEDONIA" ?
Possible Rollback Request
Gareth, Doughamp made some changes to Aramaic of Jesus which seem to be advertisements and plugs for Hebrew Jesus websites. I was debating whether or not to simply edit them and make mention to Hebrew Jesus theories, or see if they could be removed altogether, so I figure I'd ask you what you think. --Steve Caruso 16:45, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes: it seems to bantering, and it promotes two websites. I've reverted the edit, but I believe that there is room for expansion about Hebrew in the article. However, I share the same view as you do, that Hebrew was not the first language of the population at the time. --Gareth Hughes 19:01, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Wishes
I saw you several times while going round to wish. I wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year. --Bhadani 16:11, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Anglican userbox
Hi, thanks for reverting the vandalism on my user page the other day! It may interest you to know there is now an Anglican userbox. It's {{user religion|anglican}}. --Angr (t·c) 09:52, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Assyria Category
Why are you taking off the Iraqi cities that were historically Assyrian? Kurdistan isn't a real country either. That is just offensive. The cities I linked were all historically ASSYRIAN.
oopsy, I sent this to you by accident. Sorry. you were in the edits too. hehe
- Yes, I am part of the edit history. I have mostly been defending Category:Kurdistan and will likewise defend Category:Assyria. However, as you will find if you read some of the comments above, some Turks find the whole idea of non-Turks living in Turkey quite difficult to handle. --Gareth Hughes 22:20, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Check out Assyrians.
I followed through on your advice about historic data.
- It looks good. You should always remember to add your signature and date stamp to any post to a talk page. You can do this by typing four tildes (~~~~) at the end of the post. It is also really useful if you write an edit summary for every edit you make: use the little box below the edit window. Notice that there is a Show preview button. This allows you see what your edit will look like, so you only have to upload a single edit to a page, rather than uploading every little change. --Gareth Hughes 00:04, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
syriac people
Hi Im new with the miniproject assyro-chaldean..
I was woundering what you think about collecting every information to that site, that is to link the information about the syriacs into the miniproject, so that we can have the information gathered to one place. Cant you change the project name to Syriac, I think it is more sutiable due to the fact that syriac is a neutral name for the syriacs that is (assyrians/chaldeans/arameans/maronites) and so on.
Fush beshlomo Suryoyo 23:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC) // Michael
- Hi, Michael. I didn't intend the miniproject to be a lengthy affair: that's why its page is a sub-page of an article. I mainly wanted us to discuss how articles about the people variously called Assyrians, Chaldeans, Aramaeans and Syriacs be coordinated. There have been various thoughts about merging them. I tend to use the name Syriac to indicate those people whose culture is based on that language. --Gareth Hughes 00:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Do you know where the project for merging the syriac people is? is there a ongoing project? Suryoyo 00:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- Some editors have noted that we have a number of articles under different names for what is essentially the same people, and it was suggested that some be merged. However, I am unsure if those who originally suggested this were fully aware of the meanings and nuances behind each of the various names. The miniproject is simply a 'talking shop' to allow us to gather a consensus about these articles. I think that you and Benne could put a fair case to the other there for using Syriacs as the main designation. --Gareth Hughes 00:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I wounder, I have seen several articles that give wrong information, for example Queen Zenobia, Odnatheus, that is The kingdom of Palmyra is called arab? The truth is that is is aramean city, the same goes for the Nabateans, I wounder why someone isnt changing them, or maby these things take time. I would like to ask you who things work here. Is there a final editor in wikipedia? that is, if I change something, like for example the statement that Zenobia is from an arab stock, which is a lie. How will that be processed? Suryoyo 23:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC) //Michael
Places inhabited by Kurds
Hi Garzo,
This is what I added to Category talk:Kurdish areas:
- I would prefer something like Areas/cities (predominantly) inhabited by Kurds. A town like Midyat could be included in this category, but classifying it as a Kurdish city, or Tur Abdin as a Kurdish area would be incorrect, in my opinion.
- There is a conversation with Heja Helweda above in which he gives good reason for the use of the term Kurdistan. --Gareth Hughes 23:38, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
- I disagree. What's the point in including all the national or subnational entities that a particular city or region has ever been part of? I've noticed Category:Assyria being added to all the places where the Assyrians once ruled. What will be next? Italians adding Category:Roman Empire to the cities where the Romans used to dwell? Or Iranians labelling everything as belonging to the Category:Persia?
- Besides, the term Kurdistan is heavily politicised, and ambiguous. If it's really deemed necessary to include historical regions as categories, the category should in my opinion be renamed Category:Kurdistan (historical region). ----Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 10:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
Edit Wars
I'm still learning the basics of Wikipedia but I'm having a problem with user Khoi Khoi, he keeps erasing the Assyrians page which I changed to reference ancient Assyrians and redirecting it to the Assyrian people page. What can I do about that?
12.15.7.70 18:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
- The best procedure is to talk, and not to assume the other party is being malicious. Khoikhoi isn't deleting the page, but making a redirect, which is very different. This is probably because he feels that the two subjects, ancient and modern Assyrians, are better discussed in the same article. It is generally better to have one good article fed by redirects than lots of substandard articles. I imagine that Khoikhoi's motive is encyclopaedic tidiness. Write something at talk:Assyrians, talk:Assyrian people or user talk:Khoikhoi, and say that you find it difficult to understand why he's doing this; then, if not convinced, you can say how you would like it to be. If the two of you cannot decide, you can hold a straw poll of interested users, so that it doesn't become an issue between two people. Also, you might want to consider logging in or creating an account: names are easie to deal with than annonymous IP addresses. --Gareth Hughes 15:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Ingrian language
Hi,
Would you be able to move Ingrian language to Izhorian language? Thanks. --Khoikhoi 00:21, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
- OK, that's done. --Gareth Hughes 15:41, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Template:Language is in severe violation of the Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates policy. I am working on a replacement and will begin migrating articles to it. The format and variable names are in line with the current scheme, with one major exception. The "familycolor" classification is entirely original research. That "feature" is also at the root of most meta-template problems with the present language template.
I am going to begin migrating articles, with careful attention that no information is lost. -- Netoholic @ 17:17, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
- The infobox does not have the flexibility of the original. You have taken no care whatsoever to involve those who have been working on these articles. Your bombastic individualistic approach has been noted by other editors. I consider that changing to the new template in its unfinished state is a violation of WP:POINT. Use template talk:language to talk to concerned editors rather tan ramming policies down our throats. --Gareth Hughes 18:30, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
- No no no... By reverting my attempts to make a valid replacement, YOU are violating specifically violating WP:AUM. The infobox will not magically have all the features immediately, but if I can convert even half, that is better than ignoring the developer's request to actively begin removing meta-templates from use. Rather than fighting edit wars, you should be encouraging that work, not stiffling. There is patently no way to work on a replacement in a vacuum. -- Netoholic @ 08:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Rollback
Stop misusing your admin rollback function to fight edit wars over MoS issues. From Wikipedia:Revert#Admins, rollback "is solely to be a timesaving shortcut for reverting mass vandalism". No matter how passionately you feel, nothing about my infobox replacement is vandalism. -- Netoholic @ 08:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
- Second warning - do not misuse rollback for non-vandalism, as in this series of reverts. -- Netoholic @ 18:13, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Dene-Caucasian language category
Garzo, why did you nix the category on the Dene-Caucasian language macrofamily? If you have a reasonable excuse, I'll understand; I just really want to know why. It is a perfectly reasonable addition. Palafox 31 December 2005
- Well, I and others do not believe it to be perfectly reasonable. Dene-Caucasian is a fringe theory, and has no wide acceptance among linguists. As such I believe that it is totally inappropriate to place these language articles in this category. --Gareth Hughes 17:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Indeed, it is a fringe theory, and one I don't buy. But it still deserves a category along with all the other theoretical language families listed. Perhaps you would be happier if I pre-pended a "Proposed" or 'Hypothetical" in front of the category title. Eh? Palafox
- I don't think so and I've put it up at WP:CFD. The discussion can continue there. --Pjacobi 16:35, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
From Jtdirl
You may be interested to know that there is a Request of Arbitration against User:Netoholic. Feel free to contribute. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 18:41, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for pointing this out. I have no personal quarrel with this user, and had not come across him before now. I am more concerned with the future of template:language. --Gareth Hughes 20:46, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- No problem. He is a capable user. Unfortunately his treatment of you above is all too typical of his treatment of a lot of people lately. He have apparently driven some users away with how he has treated them, had offended a lot of people, as well as issuing threats on occasion. His conduct has already been the subject of one arbcom set of rulings. Tragically he does not seem to realise that there is a problem with his conduct. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 21:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Violation of WP:AUM
By reverting Template:Language, you are in violation of WP:AUM. IMPROVE the thing, don't crash Wikipedia. -- Netoholic @ 22:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- Don't be so silly: your edits broke about half of the instances of the template. The editors of Macedonian language would like to know what a lawngreen language, those at Nahuatl language would like to know were the links to the language varieties have gone, and those working on Ido would like to know why the whold infobox just fell apart on them. This all suggests that you really don't know what you're doing. Please read Wikipedia talk:Avoid using meta-templates#Accessiblty concerns with css class hiddenStructure: there are good reasons why the CSS kludge should not be used. --Gareth Hughes 22:51, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
- I know what I'm doing, I just don't know how I can do it without the oppressive stance you've taken against me. The sloppiness related to "familycolor" is what created "lawngreen", and it could be fixed by changing the infobox call on the article. This is a symptom of why your convoluted structure doesn't work. The CSS class is the best option we have... but that doesn't matter. What matters is that WP:AUM is policy and violations of it directly impact the performance of this website. Some functionality is lost, but we have to make accommodations. Stop being so proud of that kludgy wonder you created. -- Netoholic @ 23:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
cappadocian fathers
Hi
I dont think I have put the whole category Cappadocian Father in the list of Syriacs. then again I wounder why you dont think that cappadocian father belong with the syriacs? I would appreciate if you could elaborate about the origins of cappadocia in the time of the greeks and romans.
Suryoyo 23:49, 3 January 2006 (UTC) // Michael
I see that you are fast with the RV function, I would appreciate if we would have a chance to disscuss the matter first. Because now this will end up with that we will put them back later again.
Suryoyo 23:52, 3 January 2006 (UTC) //Michael
- I just happen to have the Cappadocian Fathers on my watchlist, so I wasn't fast at all: I just saw them added to what I believe is the wrong category. Cappadocia is quite a distance west of the Euphrates. None of my books mention that they were Syriacs and they never wrote in Syriac. So, unless you can point me to a reference that says they were Syriacs, I think there is plenty of evidence to say they were not. --Gareth Hughes 00:19, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
First of all, where do you get the idea of that syriacs liv west of the euphrates? Kingdom of Edessa, hatra, Sinjar, Nsibis, Arbil, These cities was inhabited by Syriacs. In the conquest of Tigranes of Armenia, when Appian describes the conquest he speaks of the Appian's History of Rome: The Syrian Wars (§§46-51): "Tigranes conquered all of the Syrian peoples this side of the Euphrates", that is there are syrians on the other side. And if you want to know more about cappadocia, then please just follow the link Cappadocia and you will se that "Cappadocians" was called White Syrians. And if you go to the link and read about the Syrian wars then you will se that that sentence is a description of the conquest of cappadocia and other free states of the syrians plus the selucid kingdom of antochia (Kingdom of the Syrians/Babylonians).
Suryoyo 00:32, 4 January 2006 (UTC) // Michael
No disruption, not making a point
I am following the policy set forth at the developer's request. I have been accommodating of your views, and I'm implementing Infobox_Language only where I can guarantee that no article content is lost. Please stop reverting this effort, because the only disruption being caused is your re-insertion of meta-templates and the only point being made is that you are the de facto owner of the old language template. -- Netoholic @ 20:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)