Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 2 discussion(s) to User talk:Fowler&fowler/Archive22) (bot |
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Please see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=894164535 this ANI complaint] about a series of IPs working on Indian related articles. You crossed paths with one of them and you might have a proposal of what to do. Purely in point of time, [[User:Hammy0007]] created their account at 01:57 on 23 April right after {{user|175.138.78.234}} made their last edit. Thanks, [[User:EdJohnston|EdJohnston]] ([[User talk:EdJohnston|talk]]) 02:43, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
== Discretionary sanctions alert on India/Pakistan/Afghanistan articles ==
{{ivmbox | image = Commons-emblem-notice.svg |imagesize=50px | bg = #E5F8FF | text = This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. ''It does '''not''' imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.''
You have shown interest in [[India]], [[Pakistan]], and [[Afghanistan]]. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called [[WP:AC/DS|discretionary sanctions]] is in effect. Any administrator may impose [[WP:AC/DS#Sanctions|sanctions]] on editors who do not strictly follow [[Wikipedia:List of policies|Wikipedia's policies]], or the [[WP:AC/DS#Page restrictions|page-specific restrictions]], when making edits related to the topic.
For additional information, please see the [[WP:AC/DS#Guidance for editors|guidance on discretionary sanctions]] and the [[WP:ArbCom|Arbitration Committee's]] decision [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/India-Pakistan|here]]. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.
}} ([[User:Highpeaks35|Highpeaks35]] ([[User talk:Highpeaks35|talk]]) 14:25, 28 April 2019 (UTC))
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Starting fresh
Fowler&fowler, in the spirit of good faith, I want to start off by saying I want to sincerely apologize for anything I have said that violated or came across as WP:NPA to you. I hope you will accept my apology. I hope we can both work with each other. In good faith, we are both here to help this project. It does not help if we have to argue over the minuscule topics because of personal vendetta. Again, let us work with each other to build a better Wikipedia. I hope you accept my apology, and on your end stop calling me "Hindu-POV" etc. (I am not even a Hindu, nor was the family for centuries.) (Highpeaks35 (talk) 11:11, 17 April 2019 (UTC))
- Thanks for your post. I didn't say you were promoting a "Hindu POV." I said only that the notion of finding the origin of everything, whether animate or inanimate, in India, especially in the nation's pre-Muslim past, is a peculiarly Hindu-nationalist-POV. Here's is what we are dealing with: we have an ivory chess piece. It is six inches high. It has an elephant taking up four of those six inches. It has a rider whose frame competes for space in the remaining two inches. And we are detecting a kurta on the rider/mahout's torso? Seriously? Then we have some obscure 1943 article by a linguist with Google scholar citation index 1, garnered in 76 years. Somewhere in that article the author makes the point that the word "kurta" is not as so-and-so say's it is in the Chinese-Sanskrit dictionary, but it is Central Asian in origin. Which language of Central Asia we are not told. Tell me, honestly, on which forum on Wikipedia will such attribution be considered reliable. And for the pictures, really, kurta-like, bodice-like, choli-like, kameez-like, shirt-like, under-shirt like, what are they wearing. It could be anything. It is unlikely, in the depiction of a battle elephant, the rider will be wearing a kurta, even in 100 degree weather. Contrast that with the kinds of sources I am using. Emma Tarlo's book has Google scholar citation index 701. We can't have people, especially IPs, (really they can't get a page of their own, but they know all the ins and outs of Wikipedia?) holding reliable sources at ransom. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:37, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- PS It is the same thing that Anupam is doing on Shalwar kameez. He has a sentence of the sort, "The kameez usually has a Western style collar while the kurta is collarless, or with a Mandarin or Nehru collar." He has two sources, one for the "western style" and another for the "collarless." The while is original research, for neither author is comparing the two. More interestingly, the second author has a picture of men in kurta in Karachi and they are all wearing kameezes with Western style collars. The first author is only partially quoted. When I actually read the relevant passage in the source, the expanded text sounded familiar. It turns out it is attributed to Wikipedia! Not just to Wikipedia, but to an edit I made about the collar in 2011! So we are dong original research by combining two sources, one our own words, requoted by others, and the other the words of an author who doesn't know what a kurta is. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:09, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I do not disagree with you in most cases. That is why I am here. I think I can work with you. I will look at your response closely once I am not on a mobile phone and respond. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 17:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC))
- No probs. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:08, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- I do not disagree with you in most cases. That is why I am here. I think I can work with you. I will look at your response closely once I am not on a mobile phone and respond. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 17:14, 17 April 2019 (UTC))
- PS It is the same thing that Anupam is doing on Shalwar kameez. He has a sentence of the sort, "The kameez usually has a Western style collar while the kurta is collarless, or with a Mandarin or Nehru collar." He has two sources, one for the "western style" and another for the "collarless." The while is original research, for neither author is comparing the two. More interestingly, the second author has a picture of men in kurta in Karachi and they are all wearing kameezes with Western style collars. The first author is only partially quoted. When I actually read the relevant passage in the source, the expanded text sounded familiar. It turns out it is attributed to Wikipedia! Not just to Wikipedia, but to an edit I made about the collar in 2011! So we are dong original research by combining two sources, one our own words, requoted by others, and the other the words of an author who doesn't know what a kurta is. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:09, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Keriya
When the British first came to the Delhi/Punjab area, they heard of a "Royal Road" of Mughal times, which supposedly ran between a town called Najibabad below the Himalaya and Keriya in Turkestan. It was said that carts could run from end to end, and fodder and fuel were available at every halting place along the way. I thought it was far-fetched, until I realized that Turkestan was then Moghulistan. Mirza Haidar Dughlat conquered Kashmir twice, once from Moghulistan and a second time from Kabul/Punjab. (According to Mohibbul Hasan, that was the reason Akbar laid claim to it.)
Now we have this. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:21, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
- In a hurry, will reply later. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:07, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
Closure of my MUSINGS
Dear Fowler&fowler,
I have read your note.
Pray why do you call my inputs MUSINGS? And why have you listed some of my blogs? They are not in your domain.
I have demonstrated that a PAF F-16 was shot down by an Indian Mig-21 Bison flown by Wg Cdr A Varthaman. It is from Pakistani media.
There is a loud bang and soon thereafter two parachutes are seen. It is factual and also mathematically consistent with other analyses by learned professionals in that field.Where have I gone wrong? Do tell. Perhaps I'll learn something.
Why have you removed the Pakistani babaji's statement that he saw three parachutes and 3 pilots. As far as I can see, it is verified within reasonable bounds. Didn't you hear the Urdu in the background?
The PAF has recommended a gallantry medal for Wg Cdr Noman Ali Khan for shooting down an IAF SU-30. I'm serious, don't laugh. So what if it is not on record elsewhere?
Bless you,
Gp Capt Noel Moitra VM
--Moitraanak (talk) 20:27, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Moitraanak: There are two simple Wikipedia principles. First, every piece of text, whether sentence fragment, clause, or full sentence, that goes into Wikipedia has to be attributed to a reliable source. Second, talk page posts need to specifically address improvements to the article with the use of specific available reliable sources. Further, for a controversial subject area such as "India-Pakistan," the source of the attribution preferably should be a scholarly one and, given the history of the two nations, a third-party one, by which I mean not originating in either country, that is books or journal articles published by: any of the internationally known academic publishers (such as Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Yale, Columbia, California, Chicago, Princeton, Warwick, Manchester, Sussex "university press," or Routledge, Wiley, Palgrave, and Springer). For recent events, which are untreated as yet in academic publications, it is preferable to use only high-quality third-party newspapers and magazines. I typically use only: The New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian, The Independent, Financial Times, Irish Times, Sydney Morning Herald, Japan Times, Reuters, and a few others. This means that if a statement cannot be attributed to such sources, and preferably several such, we cannot really put it into a India-Pakistan-related article, unless the attribution is for a simple fact (a date, a time, an address, ...) These are the limitations of Wikipedia, which, like other tertiary sources, is necessarily conservative. Your sentences cannot be attributed to any of the types of sources I have listed above. For this reason they cannot go into an India-Pakistan related article. There is no independent truth or falsehood of Wikipedia statements outside this system of attribution, that means, no video, no audio, no picture, no interview, is useful for Wikipedia unless it is reported in one of the above-mentioned sources in prose. I hope this helps. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:32, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- PS By "musings" I simply mean statements that have not been attributed to the sources mentioned above, in other words, an unattributed "spell of thoughtfulness or reflection; a meditation; a written reflection, thought, idea, etc. Usually in plural. (Oxford English Dictionary)" Nothing personal is meant. It is not the best choice of words, but I seem to have fallen into the habit. Apologies. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:40, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
- PS By "musings" I simply mean statements that have not been attributed to the sources mentioned above, in other words, an unattributed "spell of thoughtfulness or reflection; a meditation; a written reflection, thought, idea, etc. Usually in plural. (Oxford English Dictionary)" Nothing personal is meant. It is not the best choice of words, but I seem to have fallen into the habit. Apologies. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:40, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
No problems. 18:25, 22 April 2019 (UTC) Moitranaak
Archiving
The settings does look intentional but am unsure as to whether you really wanted the outcome. Post the completion of User talk:Fowler&fowler/Archive 15 (all of them seems to be reasonably sized for comfortable navigation), the bot has pushed every thread to User talk:Fowler&fowler/Archive12 and currently, it accounts for 295 threads over a span of seven years, amounting to about half megabyte. ∯WBGconverse 12:27, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- What do I do about it? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:29, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Winged Blades of Godric: I mean where is this setting made? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:45, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- Top of your t/p; User:MiszaBot/config template, wherein the bot is asked to archive all threads to Archive12; unless it is of 600 bytes.
- I was checking your t/p history, as to the reasons behind the mess and the circumstances were pretty peculiar:-)
- You were manually archiving your t/p all throughout and for the first 12 archives, you had chosen the destination to be
/ArchiveX
. But, you chose to non-conform, when in August 2010, the 13th archive was created over Archive 13 rather than Archive13. (This was your last archive until October 2011.) - On 26/10/11, you subsequently decided to perform a bot run to rename your archives from
/ArchiveX
to/Archive X
and the first 12 archives were renamed. The bot did not touch Archive 13, which was already following the proper nomenclature and you seemingly forgot that it was not 12 but rather 13 that was the last archive. - Accordingly, on the very same day, you inserted Miszabot's template over your t/p, that asked the bot to archive all threads to Archive12 (which, in your view was the last one), unless the archive size exceeded a whooping 600 bytes. Once, it exceeded, it will move to Archive13.
- Incidentally, about a month before your edit, Miszabot had crashed. So, your insertion of the template did not have any noticeable effect and in the meanwhile, you continued to manually archive. Archive 14 and then Archive 15 were created, the latter of which came during July 2012.
- Post that archive-creation, you went off-wiki for a long span of time and did not bother any about manual-archiving. Your t/p continued to grow in size unless LCSBIIIBot was authorized in October, 2013 to serve as a replacement for Miszabot.
- Since, the template of your t/p was still set at 12 (specifically Archive12, not Archive 12), the bot mass-archived about 108 threads from your t/p at once and in the process, overwrote the redirect to Archive 12, that had stayed since your moves on 26/10/11.
- The bot has continued since then because Archive12 is yet to reach 600 kb.
- The most decent fix would be to move every 50 of the threads, chronologically, from Archive12 to Archive 16, Archive 17 and so on. It will consume six new archives (uptill Archive 21), before Archive12 is blanked and that orig. redirect is restored. After that, set the parameter at the current template to Archive 22 and reduce the max size, by quite much. ∯WBGconverse 14:11, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have begun the process. I will likely have more questions for you. Meanwhile, please accept my grateful thanks for figuring out this mess. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:22, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Winged Blades of Godric: I've made the new archives 16 through 21, moved all the files from archive12 fifty at a time to these, i.e. blanked archive12. In the config template: I've set: |maxarchivesize = 100K|counter = 22. Is this OK? Is 100K a good max size, or should I reduce it more? Also, do I need to create the blank archive 22? Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:33, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- I have begun the process. I will likely have more questions for you. Meanwhile, please accept my grateful thanks for figuring out this mess. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:22, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Winged Blades of Godric: I mean where is this setting made? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:45, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Hammy
Did you see his very first edit, 2 days ago. Perhaps a pity the request wasn't granted! Johnbod (talk) 16:34, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
- That's a funny one! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:01, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
MY BLOGS
Hi,
You have listed 33 of my blogs on my Talk Page. Why? My blogs are outside your domain. This can be construed as willful malfeasance, though I'm sure you had some other reason in mind.
Await reply.
--Moitraanak (talk) 17:52, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
- I know nothing about your blogs. Where have I listed them? I may have used the expression generically in the sense of WP:NOTBLOG, but nothing more. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:04, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
- @Moitraanak: Those blogs are all cited by you (not by fowler) and that's why they show up on your talk page. I've separated out a references section on your talk page so that this is clearer. Best. --regentspark (comment) 18:21, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
Some IPs from Kuala Lumpur editing Indian topics
- History of domes in South Asia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Please see this ANI complaint about a series of IPs working on Indian related articles. You crossed paths with one of them and you might have a proposal of what to do. Purely in point of time, User:Hammy0007 created their account at 01:57 on 23 April right after 175.138.78.234 (talk · contribs) made their last edit. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 02:43, 26 April 2019 (UTC)
Discretionary sanctions alert on India/Pakistan/Afghanistan articles
This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.
You have shown interest in India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.
For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.
(Highpeaks35 (talk) 14:25, 28 April 2019 (UTC))