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Dear Durin: I am the current team leader of the Mediation Cabal, and I would like to discuss with you the recent comments you made on that page to Anittas, and your subsequent reply to Kelly Martin's post on your talk page. I would like to endorse what Kelly said in her message to you - I would be most grateful if you would please refrain from dissuading users from seeking mediation from the Mediation Cabal by instructing the users they should not be seeking mediation; no matter how bad you may feel Anittas' actions have been, this user is entitled to a mediation if they wish to request one, and as a consequence of your message this user got the idea that a Mediation Cabal had issued your statement, which was not the case. The purpose of mediation is to reconcile differences, and come to common agreement, through a civilised and moderated process; it is clear that ad-hoc discussion on the talk page is leading to nothing but mud-slinging and ad hominem response, and so in my view mediation may have some value in this matter. Especially since the user had been referred to us by an arbitrator, it makes your rather officious approach to trying to prevent the user entering mediation even less conscienable, in my view. If you do have any further questions or concerns relating to this case, please contact me rather than attempting to control the mediation process yourself. Best regards, --[[User:NicholasTurnbull|<font color="#906040">Nicholas'''Turnbull'''</font>]] | [[User_talk:NicholasTurnbull|(talk)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NicholasTurnbull|(e-mail)]] [[WP:TINMC|(cabal)]] 19:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC) |
Dear Durin: I am the current team leader of the Mediation Cabal, and I would like to discuss with you the recent comments you made on that page to Anittas, and your subsequent reply to Kelly Martin's post on your talk page. I would like to endorse what Kelly said in her message to you - I would be most grateful if you would please refrain from dissuading users from seeking mediation from the Mediation Cabal by instructing the users they should not be seeking mediation; no matter how bad you may feel Anittas' actions have been, this user is entitled to a mediation if they wish to request one, and as a consequence of your message this user got the idea that a Mediation Cabal had issued your statement, which was not the case. The purpose of mediation is to reconcile differences, and come to common agreement, through a civilised and moderated process; it is clear that ad-hoc discussion on the talk page is leading to nothing but mud-slinging and ad hominem response, and so in my view mediation may have some value in this matter. Especially since the user had been referred to us by an arbitrator, it makes your rather officious approach to trying to prevent the user entering mediation even less conscienable, in my view. If you do have any further questions or concerns relating to this case, please contact me rather than attempting to control the mediation process yourself. Best regards, --[[User:NicholasTurnbull|<font color="#906040">Nicholas'''Turnbull'''</font>]] | [[User_talk:NicholasTurnbull|(talk)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NicholasTurnbull|(e-mail)]] [[WP:TINMC|(cabal)]] 19:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC) |
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*I was out of line for posting on [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal]] since I am not a member of that group. I did so because this user was finding all avenues of dispute resolution unresponsive. This was a hostile experience for this user who was attempting to resolve a dispute. That was my motivation for doing so. I will not take this action in the future since my attempts at resolving this dispute are apparently not welcome at [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal]] (both you and Kelly Martin have voiced that). As for the dispute resolution process itself, I encourage you to review my comments to [[User:Anittas]]. On many occasions I recommended that the user take their dispute to the talk page of the article in question as a ''first step'' in the dispute resolution process. Not the only step, but the first step. For backing in procedure regarding this, I refer you to [[Wikipedia:Resolving disputes]], where it says "The first resort in resolving almost any conflict is to discuss the issue on a talk page.". This had ''not'' been done. I was not out of line in any respect for suggesting the user take this as a first step; in fact it is entirely appropriate. Such debates on talk pages can help to clarify the points at hand ''with people who are knowledgeable on the subject'' rather than people on mediation groups that have no personal knowledge of the subject. If the dispute can be resolved on the talk page of the article, it helps to reduce burden on the already over burdened dispute resolution processes. I stand by my actions in this regard and do not find fault with my suggestions in any respect. I was polite, encouraging, non-dismissive, and focused on getting the user to take that avenue of action. I also stand by my actions in noting that the user was potentially in violation of [[WP:3RR]]. As an admin, part of my responsibility is watching out for such revert wars and stopping them as appropriate. I am not heavy handed in such actions; I work first to get the users to willingly drop the revert war so that it doesn't crop up again right after blocks expire. My goal is to improve the users, not slap them with policy. I acted entirely appropriately in bringing this to the attention of the users in question, and would gladly do so again. It is standard behavior for conscientious administrators. I also stand by my comments regarding [[User:Anittas]]' incivility. I did not get hostile in response, and specifically said "With regards to "babbling", please observe Wikipedia:Civility. Thank you." Again, I was polite and to the point. I do not see any reason ''not'' to attempt to improve a user away from incivility by using such polite requests. It is entirely appropriate and I would do so again. My record here on Wikipedia shows that I am a calm, practiced editor and admin that admits error where appropriate, takes corrective action when needed, and has remained civil in a variety of tense situations. My RfA is testament to the community's support of my behavior. With that in mind, I would like to say very candidly that I have never been so offended here as I have been by your remarks and Kelly Martin's remarks. I have not been officious, my behavior has not been appalling , and I have most definitely been conscientious in my attempts at directing the dispute in appropriate ways. I feel that both you and Kelly Martin have not followed [[WP:AGF]], but rather have assumed that I have tried to countermand the processes in place to handle dispute resolution when the opposite is clearly the case. Worse, you have taken to insulting my behavior as a consequence, rather than asking for clarification first as to what I was doing and why I was doing it (as I have given now). Good day, --[[User:Durin|Durin]] 19:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC) |
*I was out of line for posting on [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal]] since I am not a member of that group. I did so because this user was finding all avenues of dispute resolution unresponsive. This was a hostile experience for this user who was attempting to resolve a dispute. That was my motivation for doing so. I will not take this action in the future since my attempts at resolving this dispute are apparently not welcome at [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal]] (both you and Kelly Martin have voiced that). As for the dispute resolution process itself, I encourage you to review my comments to [[User:Anittas]]. On many occasions I recommended that the user take their dispute to the talk page of the article in question as a ''first step'' in the dispute resolution process. Not the only step, but the first step. For backing in procedure regarding this, I refer you to [[Wikipedia:Resolving disputes]], where it says "The first resort in resolving almost any conflict is to discuss the issue on a talk page.". This had ''not'' been done. I was not out of line in any respect for suggesting the user take this as a first step; in fact it is entirely appropriate. Such debates on talk pages can help to clarify the points at hand ''with people who are knowledgeable on the subject'' rather than people on mediation groups that have no personal knowledge of the subject. If the dispute can be resolved on the talk page of the article, it helps to reduce burden on the already over burdened dispute resolution processes. I stand by my actions in this regard and do not find fault with my suggestions in any respect. I was polite, encouraging, non-dismissive, and focused on getting the user to take that avenue of action. I also stand by my actions in noting that the user was potentially in violation of [[WP:3RR]]. As an admin, part of my responsibility is watching out for such revert wars and stopping them as appropriate. I am not heavy handed in such actions; I work first to get the users to willingly drop the revert war so that it doesn't crop up again right after blocks expire. My goal is to improve the users, not slap them with policy. I acted entirely appropriately in bringing this to the attention of the users in question, and would gladly do so again. It is standard behavior for conscientious administrators. I also stand by my comments regarding [[User:Anittas]]' incivility. I did not get hostile in response, and specifically said "With regards to "babbling", please observe Wikipedia:Civility. Thank you." Again, I was polite and to the point. I do not see any reason ''not'' to attempt to improve a user away from incivility by using such polite requests. It is entirely appropriate and I would do so again. My record here on Wikipedia shows that I am a calm, practiced editor and admin that admits error where appropriate, takes corrective action when needed, and has remained civil in a variety of tense situations. My RfA is testament to the community's support of my behavior. With that in mind, I would like to say very candidly that I have never been so offended here as I have been by your remarks and Kelly Martin's remarks. I have not been officious, my behavior has not been appalling , and I have most definitely been conscientious in my attempts at directing the dispute in appropriate ways. I feel that both you and Kelly Martin have not followed [[WP:AGF]], but rather have assumed that I have tried to countermand the processes in place to handle dispute resolution when the opposite is clearly the case. Worse, you have taken to insulting my behavior as a consequence, rather than asking for clarification first as to what I was doing and why I was doing it (as I have given now). Good day, --[[User:Durin|Durin]] 19:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC) |
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:: Dear Durin: Thank you for your response. |
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:: Firstly, I am most deeply sorry that I have caused you offense - it was far from my intention to do so, although I see now why you may feel that my message was indeed offensive, and I do hope that I have not caused you any degree of long-term upset through my ill-considered message. I fear I misunderstood the scenario somewhat based on a rather cursory investigation on the matter which I should have spent more time over, and, as you quite rightly point out, a lack of assumption of good faith, for which I would also like to apologise most sincerely. In addition, the imperative and somewhat animous tone of my message was unnecessarily accusatory - which, indeed, places me in a position of hypocrisy to some degree, for which I am quite ashamed. |
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:: I understand now that you had no malicious intent in your actions regarding the mediation, and fully accept that you were attempting to do your best to assist the user. I should not have taken the user's response to your message as an indicator of your intent, which was a very ill-considered thing of me to do, and I should have done my own groundwork first before making such accusations - indeed, I should not have made them at all, but rather initiated discussion without an ''á priori'' assumption of blame. |
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:: Since we have a common point of agreement regarding the mediation now, I have no further issues with you regarding the mediation and I would like to thank you for your continued time and effort in working to make Wikipedia a better place. In particular, I would like to thank you for your hard work and dedication as a Wikipedia administrator, and I cannot apologise enough for my animosity towards you. Although I know an apology is rather hollow under such circumstances, I do hope I have not caused a permanent rift between us and that we may continue to be able to work together on Wikipedia productively in the future. I also hope that I have not discouraged you from future participation in the dispute resolution process; if I have, I am most ashamed of having done so, and I most humbly apologise. |
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:: Best regards, --[[User:NicholasTurnbull|<font color="#906040">Nicholas'''Turnbull'''</font>]] | [[User_talk:NicholasTurnbull|(talk)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NicholasTurnbull|(e-mail)]] [[WP:TINMC|(cabal)]] 21:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:47, 27 October 2005
- See User talk:Durin/archive1 for April 2005 to August 2005 comments.
- See User talk:Durin/archive2 for August 2005 to early October 2005 comments.
- See User talk:Durin/archive3 for early October 2005 to late October 2005 comments.
Pretty!
Despite my personal opinion of editcountitis, I like the graph... thankies. :) Bushytails 21:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
- It isn't about editcountitis. It's precisely the opposite of editcountitis. But, you're welcome :) --Durin 21:29, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
3RR violation
Where did I revert the article 4 times in 24 hours? I would like to see that. Show this to me. --Anittas 16:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- I responded to you at User_talk:Anittas#Potential_3RR_violation_on_.5B.5BMoldovan_language.5D.5D. --Durin 16:45, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Per your request: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Moldovan_language#My_source_on_Grigore_Ureche_is_refused
--Anittas 23:52, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Re:Your response
Another editor making violations of Wikipedia policies and guidelines does not give you leave to do the same. If you act in opposition to Wikipedia policy, you should in no way be surprised if the outcome is action against you. I have tried, and tried, and tried to work with you to contain your emotions on various topics. It is apparently beyond me to aid you in directing your efforts in less emotion driven ways. That is why I have not continued my discussion from some time ago with you; not out of disrespect for you, but out of frustration at my own inability to coach you. I wish you the best, --Durin 18:08, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- I did not break a guideline, what I had written was only a statement - not an action. Why does everyone stare at me and act as if Boothy is some angel? Molotov (talk) 18:27, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- I don't particularly care about Boothy's actions or statements in any connected way with what you have said. Your response where you said "And as long as that person gets away with discarding WikiGuidelines to the wind, I might as well do so too." troubled me. I responded to that, without consideration of Boothy. --Durin 18:29, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Nobody wants you to leave. I took the effort to try to help you in the hopes that your efforts could be directed in a more beneficial way. I have always tried to do that where appropriate. Your statement troubled me, not for what you had done but what it indicated you might do. --Durin 18:38, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Please listen to me. I never tried to indicate or surmise that I would break WikiGuidelines on purpose. The point of the "blowing to the wind" statement was to state that it is not fair that Boothy is allowed to break rules, while most of the community follows them. Any indication other than that was a misunderstanding. I think, no I know I have contributed here in a beneficial way. I have patrolled and rv vandalism, and have added articles. Besides a few isolated incidents that you and other opponents on my RfA thought were good enough to reject me and the quality of my edits, I do beleive I do excellent work. If my statement troubled you, sorry, but I remained convinced that several people do not want me here. I never meant to indicate anything, besides, I could just as easily vandalize articles as I contribute to them; but I have never indicated or intended to do so. I think the accusation is a misconception of why I am here in the first place (which I often ask myself) and why a continue to edit for a site that I am beginning to hate more and more everyday. One particular vandal is correct, Wikipedia tries to control and intice every single editor to its whims. I have stayed here much to long for people to think tha "I might as well break the rules too" indicate that I was trying to start edit wars, add POV or whatever else. I think I have put to much good work here in the first place to allow a thought that I would intentionally harm the encyclopedia to surface. Thanks. Molotov (talk) 19:12, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- As I noted before, my opposition to your RfA had nothing to do with the quality of your edits. Again, you can be the best article editor on Wikipedia and make a poor admin. I have never made an evaluative comment about your article edits. I would like to judge you based on your entire set of contributions. However, people can and do change and their output can change as a result. Your recent edit summary where you blanked your talk page with the edit summary "fuck wikipedia" was, to say the least, troubling. Taking that as part of the context in which you apparently state a willingness to violate Wikipedia policies is even more troubling. I understand it isn't what you meant to imply; but it is how it can be read and I suspect most people would read it that way. I really, honestly wish you would not hate Wikipedia. But, as I previously noted, I lack the talents to coach you. --Durin 19:23, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Ive finally gotten a chance to look at various comments about the process, and chimed in a little on some of them. -St|eve 18:57, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Well, DRR is a long time coming, and entirely rooted in the basic observation that Wikipedia has grown: Lacking any growth in oversight the due attention that can be given to issues of review quickly gets dwarfed. I can make a list of specific instances in my case alone where such limitations appeared to make for mistakes in the review process. In general, the main symptom of the above is in the lack of direct point by point responsiveness to questions on the talk or on email. Why is the Arbcom not expanded to twenty members? I think that small numbers makes it easier to control and maintain its appearance of unity.
- As you in part observed, the RFA wound up being either a reflexive feedback circuit for the Arbcom's simplistic "findings of fact," or an abstracted commentary on the ruling and process itself. Because I feel this case is to some degree motivated by personal views (from my general sarcasm all the way back to the old accusations of anti-Semitism), Im going to personally stay away for the time being from the "humiliation" issue of the so-called "remedy." IAC, I have not yet noticed any public comment by the Arbcom on the decision, and have only the hints and indications (Fred Bauder, Mindspillage) as to what the nature of the internal debate was. The problems are institutional and therefore out of public review, but it would certainly be nice to see at least a summary of the private Arbcom debate about the "remedy." Sincerely, -St|eve 01:57, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks on J.J Johnson
I figured the WP:NPA thing was implied by the "hit list" at the bottom there more clearly than the gun, but the gun was unsettling. I was going to block him at first, but I also blocked one of the people on the hitlist, so I figured I might be tainted in blocking him as well. That userbox can't stay up though. Karmafist 19:11, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- The user page is indeed troubling. But, it is his user page. As such, there's a bit of grey area as to what he can and can't put there. I need to review policy regarding this. That said, I put a message on his talk page trying to get him to change it himself. Forcing a change on him is unlikely to produce beneficial results. I suspect he's a student of the school in question, and is a frequent user of violent language. He may not fully understand that the use of such language within this context is interpreted differently, and is inappropriate. --Durin 19:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
The Land's RfA
Yeeeah, I would have gotten to it eventually. Something came up right as I was delisting it, and I just now was going back. Thanks for the heads up though. Good looking out. See ya around. --Lord Voldemort (Dark Mark) 19:20, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Edit summaries
Hey - I'd appreciate it if you'd do for me like you've done for others and tell me what percentage of the time I use edit summaries. Is there a tool you use for doing this, or do you do it manually? Thank in advance. --Randy Johnston 20:28, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- 67% overall, 29% first 500, 94.8% last 500, 96% last 100. Good work improving! I use an MS-Excel spreadsheet to generate the numbers. Once I have a user's edits on a window (for you [1]), I just select and copy all the contributions. Then, I switch to the spreadsheet and click a button. It does the rest, except for tallying the last 100 (which I don't always need). --Durin 21:10, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I didn't understand the importance of using edit summaries during my early days at Wikipedia and that seems to be hurting my overall average. I guess I have been doing better recently, though. If only I could pretend like those first 500 edits never happened. Anyway, what button do you press to tally the results in MS Excel? Thanks. --Randy Johnston 21:20, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- A button I created that is linked to a macro that I created that performs all the functions in the spreadsheet that I need to arrive at a number of figures, including summaries. There's nothing built into MS-Excel that does it for you, as there's nothing in MS-Excel explicitly for Wikipedia. Darn :) --Durin 21:26, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Would you mind sending this to me and/or instructing me how to perform this on myself, and possibly others? --Randy Johnston 21:32, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- How advanced of a user are you on MS-Excel? --Durin 21:37, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Pretty advanced... I'm familiar with the entire MS-Office 2003 suite and use Excel regularly for various tasks. --Randy Johnston 01:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
My edit summaries
Thanks for the heads-up. Must be getting lazy lately. You reminded me of a question I had a while ago and then promptly forgot about, though. If I make an edit to a section, and the summary is autofilled with the section name, and I don't add anything to what's there: is that considered an edit with or without an edit summary? — mendel ☎ 20:34, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Without. It's not enough to just have a mention of the section you're editing; that doesn't help reviewers to understand what it is you changed, and perhaps why. --Durin 21:03, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
Statistics on future of Wikipedia
Thanks, that is also an interesting train of thought, do you believe that stopping anonymous editing will relieve some of these problems? I believe that, as you say, Wiki is more a social experiment than an encyclopedia, and that stopping anonymous editing will go a long way to fixing this by 1) Increasing our credibility and thus encouraging better editors to get involved 2) Much much less time would be wasted at AFD, Copyvios etc. 3) Bad faith editing and generally bad editing will be drastically reduced. Martin 22:57, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with the line of thought that if we ban anonymous IPs from editing, that editors with ill intent will just create account to do the same. So, I don't think banning anonymous editing will help. I hate the idea of adding heirarchy into the project. However, I think the following idea has merit (if difficult to implement under the current software): Identify the top 1,000 most vandalized main space articles using some periodically automatic method of doing so (this is complex). Restrict editing to those articles to editors who have been around for at least a month and made at least 100 edits (or some other arbitrary metric that serves to limit attacks on these articles). I am involved in a proposed wiki project for a hobby of mine, and the issue of vandalism has come up. My response to this has been to indicate that only members of the organization can have accounts, and only logged in users can edit. This makes people accountable. Here in Wikipedia, we can not realistically do that; there is no membership. But, we can take steps to defend the largest problems areas. All the vandal fighting that is being done, and which is so much of a focus of many an admin's work, is essentially wasted effort; it does not contribute to expanding and improving the encyclopedia. --Durin 23:04, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- ooh, a proposed WikiProject sound highly interesting. Would you mind divulging some more information or is it all a big conspiracy? lol. --Celestianpower háblame 23:29, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is one giant conspiracy. Your edits are belong to us. ;) --Durin 23:31, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
- Ooh, another cryptic answer. How exciting. --Celestianpower háblame 08:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- No cryptic answer intended. I was just being tongue in cheek. Is there are particular question not covered above and below? --Durin 13:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Ooh, another cryptic answer. How exciting. --Celestianpower háblame 08:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Trouble with protecting some pages is the vandals find a new target and vandalise that instead, after all, most vandals are not serious and just do it for a laugh they don't really care which articles they vandalise; "George Bush protected? never mind, I'll just vandalise some page it links to instead". Although I have sometimes thought that being able to protect a page but allow registered users to edit might be a good thing. Also, I have considered starting a discussion forum/association/conspiracy to discuss these issues (mainly because I wonder how many people actually think Wikipedia can continue how it is) would you be interested? It would discuss ways to solve our problems and be revolutionary and anti-wiki-philosophy. Martin 13:28, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, I would definitely be interested. I feel that the social culture in which the original social ethics were put into writing no longer exists. I am very much against instruction creep, but I am also all too cognizant that the social ethics originally crafted here are not scalable. The English wikipedia is by far the largest, and is encountering these issues first. But, other major wikipedias are going to run into this problem. We have an opportunity to create a new set of social ethics that are scalable, and have them be put forth before the other wikipedia communities. --Durin 13:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
TINMC
Please don't respond to posts on TINMC with a lecture for the requesting editor on the three revert rule or civility. People who are looking for mediation quite often merely need someone to listen to their problem and make constructive suggestions on how to fix it. Telling them how they're doing everything wrong instead just ticks them off even more.
I referred this editor to the MedCom for assistance after he IMed me for help (as an Arbitrator, I can't really mediate disputes) and he was referred from there to MedCab. I got an IM today complaining about how the MedCab is trying to get him blocked now, and I see that's because of your comments on his talk page. Frankly, I'm rather appalled. Kelly Martin (talk) 01:48, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Excuse me? Appalled? It is clear from the evidence at hand that he was potentially in violation of 3RR. I specifically did not take action because I wanted to give him the chance to improve, and appropriately directed him to the proper resources to resolve his dispute. If you find something in particular about my manner of handling his query with respect to what I said on his talk pages, then by all means state it clearly. I do not take this accusation that my behavior was 'appalling' lightly. --Durin 02:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Revert conflict
Hi Durin,
Thanks for your message.
However, I feel I should let you know a few things about this conflict:
1) It is due to one user's insistance on using a source that is over 400 years old and does not accurately describe the current situation. When it began, it was also due to the insistance of the same user that the page include some very POV phrases such as "Romania liberated Bessarabia" (previously "Romania retook Bessarabia"). 2) This same user (Anittas) has shown some very poor behaviour on WP in the past. As evidence of this, you can check his user talkpage, where there are dozens of messages from people who have been irritated or harassed by him, as well as more than a handful of messages from people which kindly and politely urge him to disengage from specific conflicts to which he replies with obscentities, personal attacks, or general rudeness (for example "Go away. Now."). 3) This user had no other users supporting them. He left a message on talkpages of "fellow Romanians", expecting them to come and help him revert, but none of them did because even they saw how ridiculous his revisions were. 4) Aforementioned user was blocked promptly for violation of the 3RR on that page 5) The last revision on that page occurred 2 days ago, which can *usually* be taken as an indication that the conflict has ended.
Cheers Node 04:33, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
All above is a lie and I can prove it. Anyone can. I never wrote the following sentence:
- I didn't say that _you_ wrote that. I just said that at the beginning of the revert war, there was that phrase, which is true. You didn't put it there, whatever. But if you check the page history in the last week, you'll see that I am not lying.
"Romania liberated Bessarabia"
Romania did not liberate Bessarabia. Bessarabia voted in a referendum to reunite with Romania, but in either case, I didn't write any of that stuff. This can be verified by checking the edit history. The only thing that I added to that article was the fragment about Ureche. And I asked only Bogdan to revert the article, and he is away. The rest of what Node said is off-topic. We're talking about the legitimate of a source, not about my own behaviour.
- Remind me... don't you claim to be a Moldovan?? _you_, of all people, should know that this is referring NOT to the referrendum, but rather to Operation Barbarossa in which the Nazi-allied Romanians took Bessarabia from the Russians.
You don't see me telling people that all Romanians are disgraced when they read your posts, Node, and that you lied to the members of the Moldovan Wiki. Am I exagerating? See for yourself:
- "Members of the Moldovan Wiki"?? That's priceless. The only "members of the Moldovan Wiki" are myself, Ronline, Vertaler, Dmitriid, and Gabix. None of the other "members" you claim (Goie, Mihaita, Duca, yourself...) have made ANY LEGITIMATE CONTRIBUTIONS to that Wikipedia. Thus, you and that Wikipedia. Now, I remind you that you can't call all of these people "rusi" because Ronline was born in and lives in Romania, and is definitely a Romanian. Vertaler, Dmitriid and I are all Moldovans. Gabix is a Belarusan. So far, that's absolut 0 "russians". And don't say that Belarusans are the same thing as Russians -- Gabix has a deep problem with Russia because of centuries of Russian oppression of his country, people, and language, as he explained.
http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ronline/Alegeri_pentru_administratori
There you have it. Nothing can be hidden from the public. All that mess; all that chaos, was created by Node. But, this should not be held against him - not in this case - because all of that, is irrelevant to what we're talking about here; and I wouldn't be such an idiot as to trying to discredit Node for other conflicts that he might be having, even when they show that he is Anti-Romanian. --Anittas 05:03, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- So, is Ronline who voted to keep the Moldovan Wikipedia, "Anti-Romanian"?? What about the other Romanians who have supported it (Romihaita, for one)?? You have accused me so much of being Anti-Romanian. Well, the burden of evidence rests with the accuser. To cite one page and say that proves it is not sufficient -- you should have multiple sources.
- Whatever. I'm not going to put up with Anittas' **** anymore. But I feel that this message from Anittas' own userpage is: "I do not commit myself to abide by the Wiki policy on "assuming good faith". Also, take a look at his user talkpage. He is consistently involved in conflicts, and consistently divides Wikipedians into an "us" and a "them". If you don't know Romanian, I'll give you some help with the things on his talkpage and that he's posted to others in Romanian: Essentially, they're all about how the Russians (including 2 moldovans and 2 americans) and their propaganda and that stuff are trying to vandalise pages in an anti-Romanian manner. He places a great importance on whether or not somebody is Romanian -- anybody with whom he agrees or trusts must be Romanian, and everybody he doesn't like is Russian or Anglo-Saxon. Now, I'll admit that I've been involved in my fair share of conflicts in the history of Wikipedia. However, the vast majority of posts on my talkpage don't relate to conflicts... and I don't have any posts archived (I have left all 100+ there since the first one). On the other hand, Anittas' talkpage is filled with talk of conflicts, revert wars, and the like, and he actually has split it in half by archiving older posts. Usually, when somebody begs with me nicely to disengage in a conflict, my response is kind. However, he is consistently rude, mean, ignores them, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseam.
- Now, none of that really has much relevance to this debate except for the fact that I am not the first person to have a problem with Anittas. Currently, it is me and C. Sundita against him. He has so far found nobody to support his position, and ignores the most important parts of the argument against it, namely: He is trying to use a source from 400 years ago to describe the situation on the ground today. It's fine to use sources from 400 years ago, but not if you're going to try to use them to give an idea of the current situation. --24.251.68.75 08:35, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- An addition: the vast majority of Anittas' contributions are on talkpages, and most of the rest are reversions. He has contributed next to no original content or good edits.
- We're not here to discuss contributions; but if you are interested in my contributions, see my userpage. Where are your contributions? On the Moldova Wiki, where you steal articles from the Romanian Wiki? Thanks for the laugh! --Anittas 20:25, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- An addition: the vast majority of Anittas' contributions are on talkpages, and most of the rest are reversions. He has contributed next to no original content or good edits.
- I am deferring my involvement in this conflict pending progression of the debate at Talk:Moldovan_language#My_source_on_Grigore_Ureche_is_being_refused and the involvement of other mediators at Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal#User:Christopher_Sundita_and_User:Node_ue_disallowing_me_to_use_a_source. --Durin 14:57, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Possible problems with images of minors
Thank you for your message on my talk page. I am afraid I am not able to answer to your question. I could answer to questions regarding European patent law and, to a limited extent, regarding United States patent law, but not regarding United States copyright law. I suggest you contact User:Mmmbeer who is apparently registered U.S. patent attorney, or User:Postdlf, a U.S. lawyer (who wrote articles on U.S. Supreme Court decisions relating to copyright, e.g. Burrow-Giles Lithographic Co. v. Sarony and more). I hope this helps. --Edcolins 10:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks Ed (I presume that's your first name). That's exactly what I was looking for. --Durin 12:55, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Re:RFA closing
Hey, sorry Durin, it was a bit late at night and I wasn't thinking straight. Thanks for taking care of it. Christopher Parham (talk) 15:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- No worries. I was happy to help. --Durin 15:24, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
thanks for advice!
I've withdrawn per yours and others advice. I really appreciate the kind words. peace, Tedernst 16:37, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- And thanks for cleaning things up after my withdrawl. Lots to learn around here! Tedernst 16:57, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- No worries. I didn't vote on your RfA, but had planned to if it remained. I have not reviewed your contributions in detail, but what I've seen so far suggests you will make an excellent admin in the future. Keep plugging away; you'll get there. --Durin 17:00, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Dear Durin: I am the current team leader of the Mediation Cabal, and I would like to discuss with you the recent comments you made on that page to Anittas, and your subsequent reply to Kelly Martin's post on your talk page. I would like to endorse what Kelly said in her message to you - I would be most grateful if you would please refrain from dissuading users from seeking mediation from the Mediation Cabal by instructing the users they should not be seeking mediation; no matter how bad you may feel Anittas' actions have been, this user is entitled to a mediation if they wish to request one, and as a consequence of your message this user got the idea that a Mediation Cabal had issued your statement, which was not the case. The purpose of mediation is to reconcile differences, and come to common agreement, through a civilised and moderated process; it is clear that ad-hoc discussion on the talk page is leading to nothing but mud-slinging and ad hominem response, and so in my view mediation may have some value in this matter. Especially since the user had been referred to us by an arbitrator, it makes your rather officious approach to trying to prevent the user entering mediation even less conscienable, in my view. If you do have any further questions or concerns relating to this case, please contact me rather than attempting to control the mediation process yourself. Best regards, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) (e-mail) (cabal) 19:29, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- I was out of line for posting on Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal since I am not a member of that group. I did so because this user was finding all avenues of dispute resolution unresponsive. This was a hostile experience for this user who was attempting to resolve a dispute. That was my motivation for doing so. I will not take this action in the future since my attempts at resolving this dispute are apparently not welcome at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal (both you and Kelly Martin have voiced that). As for the dispute resolution process itself, I encourage you to review my comments to User:Anittas. On many occasions I recommended that the user take their dispute to the talk page of the article in question as a first step in the dispute resolution process. Not the only step, but the first step. For backing in procedure regarding this, I refer you to Wikipedia:Resolving disputes, where it says "The first resort in resolving almost any conflict is to discuss the issue on a talk page.". This had not been done. I was not out of line in any respect for suggesting the user take this as a first step; in fact it is entirely appropriate. Such debates on talk pages can help to clarify the points at hand with people who are knowledgeable on the subject rather than people on mediation groups that have no personal knowledge of the subject. If the dispute can be resolved on the talk page of the article, it helps to reduce burden on the already over burdened dispute resolution processes. I stand by my actions in this regard and do not find fault with my suggestions in any respect. I was polite, encouraging, non-dismissive, and focused on getting the user to take that avenue of action. I also stand by my actions in noting that the user was potentially in violation of WP:3RR. As an admin, part of my responsibility is watching out for such revert wars and stopping them as appropriate. I am not heavy handed in such actions; I work first to get the users to willingly drop the revert war so that it doesn't crop up again right after blocks expire. My goal is to improve the users, not slap them with policy. I acted entirely appropriately in bringing this to the attention of the users in question, and would gladly do so again. It is standard behavior for conscientious administrators. I also stand by my comments regarding User:Anittas' incivility. I did not get hostile in response, and specifically said "With regards to "babbling", please observe Wikipedia:Civility. Thank you." Again, I was polite and to the point. I do not see any reason not to attempt to improve a user away from incivility by using such polite requests. It is entirely appropriate and I would do so again. My record here on Wikipedia shows that I am a calm, practiced editor and admin that admits error where appropriate, takes corrective action when needed, and has remained civil in a variety of tense situations. My RfA is testament to the community's support of my behavior. With that in mind, I would like to say very candidly that I have never been so offended here as I have been by your remarks and Kelly Martin's remarks. I have not been officious, my behavior has not been appalling , and I have most definitely been conscientious in my attempts at directing the dispute in appropriate ways. I feel that both you and Kelly Martin have not followed WP:AGF, but rather have assumed that I have tried to countermand the processes in place to handle dispute resolution when the opposite is clearly the case. Worse, you have taken to insulting my behavior as a consequence, rather than asking for clarification first as to what I was doing and why I was doing it (as I have given now). Good day, --Durin 19:52, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
- Dear Durin: Thank you for your response.
- Firstly, I am most deeply sorry that I have caused you offense - it was far from my intention to do so, although I see now why you may feel that my message was indeed offensive, and I do hope that I have not caused you any degree of long-term upset through my ill-considered message. I fear I misunderstood the scenario somewhat based on a rather cursory investigation on the matter which I should have spent more time over, and, as you quite rightly point out, a lack of assumption of good faith, for which I would also like to apologise most sincerely. In addition, the imperative and somewhat animous tone of my message was unnecessarily accusatory - which, indeed, places me in a position of hypocrisy to some degree, for which I am quite ashamed.
- I understand now that you had no malicious intent in your actions regarding the mediation, and fully accept that you were attempting to do your best to assist the user. I should not have taken the user's response to your message as an indicator of your intent, which was a very ill-considered thing of me to do, and I should have done my own groundwork first before making such accusations - indeed, I should not have made them at all, but rather initiated discussion without an á priori assumption of blame.
- Since we have a common point of agreement regarding the mediation now, I have no further issues with you regarding the mediation and I would like to thank you for your continued time and effort in working to make Wikipedia a better place. In particular, I would like to thank you for your hard work and dedication as a Wikipedia administrator, and I cannot apologise enough for my animosity towards you. Although I know an apology is rather hollow under such circumstances, I do hope I have not caused a permanent rift between us and that we may continue to be able to work together on Wikipedia productively in the future. I also hope that I have not discouraged you from future participation in the dispute resolution process; if I have, I am most ashamed of having done so, and I most humbly apologise.
- Best regards, --NicholasTurnbull | (talk) (e-mail) (cabal) 21:47, 27 October 2005 (UTC)