Happy New Year!
Христосъ Воскресе!
Ура! :) --Irpen
Response to Lysy
Sorry I couldn't get back to you earlier, but I was unable to do so due to circumstances beyond my control. I specifically mean getting back to you in regards to your outrageous, false, and unapologized for statement regarding Lithuanian "historical support" of the Nazis. This statement was made by you here on my talk page under the heading, "Disruptive Editing", circa June 22, 2007. Before getting to my point, I also want to say that my being briefly away from the WP project has given me a fresh and different perspective of why this problem of propagandizing on the Wikipedia project should stop. If you look at the recent entries concerning the article and talk on the "Current situation" of the Polish minority in Lithuania (and look at the usual participants in the recent row), you'll see what the problem is, in a microcosm. Now for the sweeping generalization you made concerning the Nazis and Lithuania, and Lithuanian so-called "historical support" of the Nazi's policies. When you speak of Lithuania in such a context, I'm sure it's safe to assume you are not speaking of a geophysical entity or its forests, rocks, and streams, but of it's people. So then who exactly do you mean, what people? The government of the Republic of Lithuania? No, that fled in 1940, and never supported the Nazis. The newly installed government of the LSSR? I don't think so. An old couple living on their farm who lived through the Tsarist regime and WWI, and were happy to find their country free and indepedent in 1918? A medical student who had their studies and dreams interrupted by the politics and war that began in 1939? Again no, no and no. The Lithuanian "support" of the Nazis is the figment of the imagination of propagandists from all sides of the issue, and evidently when you bring it up, you mean to perpetuate such nonsense. As for the term "historical" being used in this context, this is another bit of nonsense. As a government, Nazi Germany lasted a mere twelve years (half of that time at war) and occupied Lithuania for three years. The Nazis came uninvited and all of their activities were done under the cloud of a military occupation, and for all practical purposes, martial law. And whereas (like the French), the Lithuanian people did not engage in a futile excercise by staging some doomed "uprising", this does not constitute support of Nazi activities or policies. And please do not waste your time by giving me isolated individuals as examples supporting your position, because even though I could reply with plenty of Polish examples of collaboration with the Nazis, it would be equally ridiculous for me to claim the this proved Polish "historical" support for the Nazis. I will grant you however, that after a year of Stalinist excesses, deportations, executions and so on, there may have been a feeling of relief on the part of many that the first foreign incursion was being replaced by perhaps something less abhorrent, and the Nazis might even allow the re-establishment of an independent Lithuania, but this hope proved to be short lived. It was something like "jumping out of the frying pan into the fire". And you speak of "historical support". So sweeping and so "grand" of a concept, yet hardly "historical" as one understands the term in English. I think of historical as a concept that would span a greater time frame than three years, but just the same it is a "loaded" phrase as it's being used by you in this context. For example, if one wanted to debate the "historical" existence and significance of Polish anti-Semitism, since this subject almost spans a millenium, I would equally oppose that description as being inflammatory and counter productive. And unnecessary, btw. So enough with the "historical". Incidentally I found your suggestion that the Lithuanian partisans who operated in Lithuania after WWII, was somehow more "evidence" of Lithuanian historical support of the Nazis, particularly odious. When I called your remarks outrageous and asked for a retraction and/or apolology, you stated that you weren't about to apologize over a difference of opinion. This is not about a difference of opinion. And this type of activity on Wikipedia should stop. I think we should all choose our words more carefully. As always, best wishes. Dr. Dan 01:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC) p.s. Do consider that apology.
- Dan, consider this a warning. If you do not stop igniting hatred and digging things up that are done and gone, I will block you. I am very serious. Please channel your energy into something useful instead, like writing or copyediting articles. That will be far more beneficial than driving everyone into "my nation is better" game. Renata 13:29, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Renata, it's a pity that you think making a statement like the Lithuanians "historically supported the Nazis" should go unanswered and unchallenged. Now that I expressed my opinion on the subject, consider my input on the matter finished. It had nothing to to with "my nation is better" or other any "games". Please be sure to apply your warnings and blocks equally and fairly in the future. And unless you feel the the Lithuanians "historically supported the Nazis", it would have been nice of you to issue the same warning when that inflammatory statement was made by Lysy. In so far as digging anything up, it was the last matter that was unresolved between me and Lysy before I took some time off from the project. Dr. Dan 15:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I am glad to see that you are taking the warning seriously. As for provocations, my answer is no, they shouldn't either be made or answered. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, productive that can come out of a provocation. Renata 16:37, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm taking the warning for what it is. And for clarification, I repeat that making a statement that the Lithuanians "historically supported the Nazis" should not go unanswered or unchallenged. Perhaps you agree with the premise. I do not. Dr. Dan 21:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Glad it's been resolved. Since we are back to being productive, would you mind taking a look at the articles linked at {{Prussian clans}}? I just finished the series of seven articles about Lithuanian cousins that do not have living representatives today. I know the language does not meet professional English requirements, and I know you can do wonders :) I would really appreciate it. Renata 03:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- It has not been resolved. In the meantime, I will be happy to look at the Prussian clans. Dr. Dan 04:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Completely disagree with your position, Renata, regarding your "warnings". Or this is something new and we will see more such events, then they are really justifiable , like in theses case [1], [2], [3], [4]. Somehow you did not do nothing similar in these cases. And one inelegant person once said: The only thing necessary for triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Currently you suggesting to do nothing... M.K. 13:26, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Currently I suggest copyediting Prussian clans, or some other article. Renata 15:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
A delightful article! Dr. Dan 17:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Small Statement
For the benefit of some of my friends and others not so friendly, I wish to say that after a serious illness keeping me away from Wikipedia editing for a month and a half, I am happy to see that "all is well" and very "little has changed" in certain quarters concerning certain agendas on WP. Same o, same o. But I also wish to remind certain individuals coming out of close minded societies, that free thinking people are very tired and concerned about this totalitarian like threat of censorship dangling over the heads of editors trying to resolve, unresolved matters. To those folks I suggest they read the once popular Yosemite Sam mudflaps, and take them to heart. Sam said "Back Off". Dr. Dan 04:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
This was not baiting
These remarks were removed from P.P.'s talk page, by the prokonsul himself. They were made in response to remarks and personal insults made against me under the heading Narutowicz, September 5, 2007.
- Other than your personal insults (calling me a troll, etc.), I found your little diatribe to be humorous and enlightening. Halibutt, I have always believed you to have an extremely anti-Lithuanian bias (not sure why), and one who enjoys poisoning realtions between Poles and Lithuanians on WP. Do find some time out of your busy schedule and visit Lithuania. Start with the Lithianian city of Vilnius (only a hop, skip, and a jump from Warszawa). Then you can add it to your little flag collection. You'll find the people in Lithuania very hospitable, and no flies in your soup. Sometimes people catch those flies in the cobwebs of their own minds. If you really leave, have a nice life. Dr. Dan 01:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Alphabetical order... sure.
It took me a while to really start laughing after I saw this. A smart joke notwithstanding, it was an act of vandalism nevertheless. I suppose we both know that. --Poeticbent talk 15:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- Glad you got a laugh. Laughs are good. You'll never know how many laughs the "non-existent Cabal" has given me over time. However the issue remains that the English language is being adulterated by calling Cracow, on English WP, Krakoof (sic), and when Cracow and Krakow are added, alphabetizing them seems quite logical. Sorry that seems to be vandalization to you. I'm beginning to wonder why our Polish editors have a problem with the sound of Cra"COW", and perhaps their auditory perception of "COW" doesn't conjure up a peaceful, contented cud chewing animal, giving milk to all, but conjures up "KAŁ" (a Polish word for fecal matter, that happens to rhyme with cow). Could that be it? Dr. Dan 19:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- I hope we do understand each other here, right? Naturally, alphabetizing was not the source of my laughter, but the messed up spelling was. Your Crakow versus Kracow. Would it be possible than, since you brough that up again as "logical", that the joke might have been unintentional? I find it hard to believe. Albeit, "COW" versus "KAŁ" sounds even funnier. --Poeticbent talk 19:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
On Lameness
Maybe the edit war was lame but the description of it was inappropriate for Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars. Your entry [5] looked like a discussion post with arguments for your own side and against the other. You even signed it. The page is not the place to continue an edit war or try to make others think that your side was more sensible. It's a place to show the war was lame, without taking sides. An example of lameness could be that Good Article review failed "Based on the edit warring and the constant bickering".[6] Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars has been nominated for deletion 7 times and would probably have been deleted long ago if people just used it to justify their side in edit wars. PrimeHunter 21:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
check it
you may like to notice that I have added a previously missing section in the denazification article, I thought it was sorely lacking and seemed to be devoid of this portion of Germany. [7] 216.110.236.235 06:28, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Native placenames
Hi Dr Dan, Just wondering what you meant with your comment regarding the word Cracow becoming obsolete? (Maybe I'm a bit slow today, the coffee machine is broken ;-) ) By the way, I agree that my use of Warszawa on my user page may appear a bit inconsistent. However, there is a logic. Let's put it this way - I recall being rather impressed first with the Brittanica atlas when I was growing up, and later with Google maps, in that they give place names according to the local spelling rather than some anglicised version. Incidentally, this is also why I objected to the change to Navahrudak Voivodeship, having the impression that the native version (at that time and location) was the Polish spelling. Deuar 14:26, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hi back. The use of Warszawa on your user page strikes me as being more than a bit inconsistent with your views (if I understand them properly) regarding the Cracow or Wilno issues on English WP. Or maybe not at all inconsistent. Perhaps you and I will eventually fine tune the matter as they relate to the English language. Dr. Dan 23:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks, Irpen. As an opponent of censorship, I didn't want to involve myself in the recent "mess", personally. But I agree with your action. Again, I will consider the original request from the contributor, even though he has personally insulted me many times, has sought to censor me, and has demanded that I be "punished" for behavior that he deems objectionable to. However the "same" type of behavior from contributors he has supported in their endeavors, is fine with him. But I do again want you to be clear that my motivations were not of a malicious intention, and were not caused by his behavior. P.P. is merely an abbreviation. The picture (which I like), is merely descriptive. I have posted my own image on my user page and I could care less about a similar link to it. I do agree with P.P. that a picture is worth a thousand words, even though that is not an original thought of his. Best. Dr. Dan 01:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Dan. The following edits: [8], [9] look like WP:POINT to me. Please do not do it again Alex Bakharev 04:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yes Alex, they may appear as WP:POINT to you, however I do intend to further explain my position on Pilsudski's Lithuanian ethnicity (which he acknowledged on numerous occassions) on the J.P. talk page, and appropriately place them into the article where needed. Perhaps you believe that my edits were in retaliation for the recent work of certain parties at the Jonas Basanavicius article and the remarks made on that article's talk page. That would be incorrect. Whereas these provocations had no basis to be put into the Encyclopedia, and there were no attempts to revert them, or admonish those who included them by anyone with the authority to do so, it would be untrue if I said that these edits did not remind me of some unfinished work on the Pilsudski artcle, and my need to address other reverts and the removal of sourced information due to WP:IDON'TLIKE. But no, my intentions were not to make a point, and when you have time to do so, please take a moment to look at the Basanavicius article, it's edit history, and its talk page. Thanks. Dr. Dan 05:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I have a second opinion abut this "look like WP:POINT", posted RE @ [10] --Termer 05:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi there
Czesc Daneczku. Well, I have no doubt about Jogaila But Pilsudski... just a question - why didn't he leave Poland after 1918 to settle in Lithuania? He had a choice and he chose Poland which tells all. greets Tymek (talk) 05:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, he ended up settling his mother there (in Vilnius), and finally his heart there too (in Vilnius). Maybe you've heard of the expression, "Home is where the heart is". Actually his mother was already settled in Lithuania, and died there. The Lithuanian government was very cooperative with her exhumation. Also please remember his dream was to unite his homeland, Lithuania with Poland, kind of like Hitler wanting to reunite his homeland Austria, with Germany. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC) Btw, thanks for at least acknowledging Jogaila's heritage. Seems I remember SylwiaS and some others wringing their hand over the Jogaila debate with something like "now they are trying to take our king" (a paraphrase rather than an exact quotation).