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Doug Weller (talk | contribs) →Block needed?: warned |
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==Block needed?== |
==Block needed?== |
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[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=Bottracker User Bottracker] keeps uploading copyright images under false free licenses. Despite being warned they've continued to do so and just blank their talk page. I've just tagged a load for speedy deletion and don't really want them to have the opportunity to upload even more later on. [[User:Polly|<b style="color:green;">Polly</b>]] ([[User talk:Polly|<b style="color:red;">Parrot</b>]]) 19:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC) |
[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=Bottracker User Bottracker] keeps uploading copyright images under false free licenses. Despite being warned they've continued to do so and just blank their talk page. I've just tagged a load for speedy deletion and don't really want them to have the opportunity to upload even more later on. [[User:Polly|<b style="color:green;">Polly</b>]] ([[User talk:Polly|<b style="color:red;">Parrot</b>]]) 19:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC) |
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:I've got to give a warning, which I've done, and the files are now deleted by another Admin. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller#top|talk]]) 19:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC) |
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Welcome to my talk page! I am an administrator here on Wikipedia. That means I am here to help. It does not mean that I have any special status or something, it just means that I get to push a few extra buttons to help maintain this encyclopedia. If you need help with something, feel free to ask. Click to start a new topic.
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First, please remember that I am not trying to attack you, demean you, or hurt you in any way. I am only trying to protect the integrity of this project. If I did something wrong, , but remember that I am human, and I do make mistakes. Please keep your comments civil. If you vandalize this page or swear at me, you will not only decrease the likelihood of a response, your edits could get you blocked. (see WP:NPA) When posting, do not assume I know which article you are talking about. If you leave a message saying "Why did you revert me?", I will not know what you mean. If you want a response consisting of something other than "What are you talking about", please include links and, if possible, diffs in your message. At the very least, mention the name of the article or user you are concerned with. If you are blocked from editing, you cannot post here, but your talk page is most likely open for you to edit. To request a review of your block, add Administrators: If you see me do something that you think is wrong, I will not consider it wheel-warring if you undo my actions. I would, however, appreciate it if you let me know what I did wrong, so that I can avoid doing it in the future. |
You can email me from this link but in the interests of Wiki-transparency, please message me on this page unless there are pressing reasons to do otherwise.
Comments which I find to be uncivil, full of vulgarities, flame baiting, or that are are excessively rude may be deleted without response. If I choose not to answer, that's my right, don't keep putting it back. I'll just delete and get annoyed at you.
removal of Voynich link...
User:SOPHIAN and maps
Hi, I noticed your warning to SOPHIAN on his talkpage has been deleted by him, but he has also started a programme of deleting other people's maps, some of which I think are OK. This subject has BTW been discussed a few times on WP:HGH. My understanding is that maps where the data is put together and mapped by a Wikipedian need to be looked at as potential OR, depending upon obviousness, while straight scans of maps risk being deleted as OR. However I understood that non-slavish reproductions of published maps, noting their sourcing, are OK. Trying to engage SOPHIAN on talkpages is not very easy.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:03, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps also of interest to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_talk:R1A_map.jpg. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
You may also be interested as an admin who has been involved in SOPHIAN controversies: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:William_M._Connolley&diff=302387535&oldid=302377030 --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Akhenaten page
Did you get my email regarding the Akhenaten page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zululep (talk • contribs) 07:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, and replied to it also, saying something like your edits had no edit summaries and did remove a lot of text, and you were editing without an account, and that combination always sets off alarm bells. I'm not sure why you removed so much text. We can of course show what reliable sources think - their opinions, if you will, and in fact we should so long as they are significant and we are representing current thought. If you'd made edit summaries explaining what you were doing, it's much less likely I wouldn't have reverted. Shall we discuss the article on its talk page? Dougweller (talk) 15:11, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Ancient Egyptian Race Controversy
Can you help me understand what is going on? I have not looked at this pae for a while but the last time I did I found Ancient Observer and Wdford to be thoughtful constructive editors and now they are banned. Do you understand what they did to get themselves banned?
On another note, I have my own proposal that is meant to help resolve the conflicts: have one article on the controversy, but mak it explicitly an article about scholars, journalists, activists, living in the twentieth century and using an argument over the past to forward present-day agendas, and have either an article or just a section in the article on Egyptian history that limits itself to acknowledged scholars of Ancient near Eastern history and archeology as sources, for separate discusions concerning (1) what we know about Egyptian demography and (2) what we know about how Egyptians classified themselves and others (such classifications understood to be social constructions). By this propoal, if an acknolwedged scholar has claimed that the ancient Egyptians had a notion of race, that could go into the article but properly contextualized and explained.
Thoughts? Slrubenstein | Talk 02:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- You called this comment tendentious: "as the article title makes clear, this article is about the Afrocentric "race controversy", not about prehistoric Egypt in general.". How does that statement differ from your suggestion to "have one article on the controversy, but mak it explicitly an article about scholars, journalists, activists, living in the twentieth century and using an argument over the past to forward present-day agendas,"? Dougweller (talk) 05:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Is this the question you have been waiting for an answer for? if so, I regret taking so long to answer it, I only now saw it. I suppose what i wrote was vague. First off, I could just have easily written 19th/20th century - my point is, an article about modern Europeans, EuroAmericans, African Americans, not ancient Egyptians. Secondly, my sentence does not refer to "afrocentrists." I take it for granted that there is a controversy because of a debate between Afrocentrists, Eurocentrists, and probably other views. dab's comment is tendentious and frankly offensive for two reasons. First, the title of he article does not specify Afrocentric so he is distorting the situation. Second, by singling out Afrocentrists (who, with the possible exception of Martin Bernal, are all or mostly Black), he is implying that it is Blacks who hold nutty views. The fact is, when I look at popular views of topics of scholarly research, from evolution to who built the pyramids, it seems to me that most non-scientists/scholars hold pretty nutty views. I have even seen documentaries produced by the National Geogfraphic, Discover, and History channels promote nuty views (by which i mean, views that most historians or anthropologists or geographers would dismiss as fringe). dab's comment suggests that there is a controversy only because some people are Afrocentric. Other editors have pointed out that several people who have written about ancient Egypt were Eurocentric, and that this is part of the "controversy." I do not see how any progress can be made on this article as long as it is characterized as promoting afrocentric views. Now, i know that some editors have tried to use the article to promote afrocentric views. So what? Screw them. There are other editors who are trying to use the article not to promote any view but to provide an account of a controversy. I'd like to give those editors time to look for articles by anthropologists, sociologists, intellectual historians, or cultural studies people because i think it is quite likely that someone in one of these disciplines has analyzed how debates over the race of ancient Egyptians actually have been motivated by and reveal something about race relations in the 19th and 20th centuries. An article that explores this would be a pretty interesting article in my view. But as long as some people characterize it as a controversy between Afrocentrists and scientists, we will get nowhere. Let the article on Egyptian history or Ancient Egyptians draw on mainstream research by scholars. Let the "controversy" article be about popular views about a particular historical topic - some Afrocentric, some Eurocentric, and all revealing something about how modern people (not necessarily historians, but maybe just regular people) think about history. History is regularly politicized, if this is a new idea to you I highly recommend historian Mike Wallace's Mickey mouse History. But blacks and whites are equally capabl of politicizing history and if as dab suggests this article should put all the weight on afrocentrists, well, then he is politicizing it. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:12, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Slrubenstein quite obviously has no idea what he is talking about and would profit from reading the article. For all his involvement in "race" articles, I am dumbfounded at the naive and confused grasp on the topic he still appears to have.
The above is very close to a direct personal attack on me. No, I am not implying that "Blacks hold nutty views". I am implying that some people hold nutty views, and it is our job to keep them off the wiki. This appears to work reasonably well as long as the nutters are white power Neo-Nazi Nordicists, and if you know anything about my involvement in ethnic nationalism topics you would know that I have been combatting those, too. It is just very easy to get rid of your typical Neo-Nazi nutter, while it seems to be almost impossible to get rid of your typical Afrocentrist Black Power nutter, because if these are banned, people are sure to stand up and complain "but how could you ban him ... he's black!".
My answer to this is that I don't give a damn what colour, shape, flavour or scent a Wikipedian is, I simply react to their edits. I am extremely tired of this US game of "playing the race card". It's racist. There I've said it.
No, there is no controversy over the "race of Ancient Egyptians". Not between "Afrocentrists and Eurocentrists" and certainlyh not between scholars. This is just a red herring used by Afrocentrists to create political noise.
If Slrubinstein feels that this article should discuss how "debates over the race of ancient Egyptians actually have been motivated by and reveal something about race relations in the 19th and 20th centuries" then I cordially invite him to sit down and write this article already. I am not holding my breath. I have been watching this article for literally FOUR years, and all it ever attracted was Afrocentric bs. That was until Moreschi sat down and put it straight. Now my entire involvement in this most recent eruption has been defending Moreschi's sane version from the most recent outbreak of Afrocentrist trolling. If Slrubenstein thinks he can actually improve on Moreschi's version, let him just put his money where his mouth is and do it already instead of filling talkpages with oblique attacks on me. --dab (𒁳) 15:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- I remember when Martin Bernal's (not an Afrocentrist) book came out, and there was indeed quite a controversy for quite some time. As is typical in academe, much of the criticism was legitimate and a sign of the kind of healthy debate that ought to characterize university life. Much of it wasn't. Some didn't like Egypt being portrayed as having such a great (and direct) influence ... and some didn't like Egypt being portrayed as African. Controversy? Yeah, I'd say it is out there. Was Moreschi's revision an improvement. Now, i generally have a lot of respect for Moreschi, but the answer is: no. His version was simply about refuting Afrocentric claims, the article was largely argumentative which an article generally ought not to be. The only time he mentioned eurocentric views, they were "perceived" eurocentric views. A good NPOV article would have the same attitude towards both Afrocentrism and Eurocentrism. I think the current version is much better. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- The academic debate about Bernal is a reliable source, but what you seem to be referring to as the more tricky question is some other type of debate which is "out there". Can that be sourced? I have not looked at the edits in question closely, but it is perhaps worth remarking that sometimes people interested in these debates are influenced heavily by their awareness of extensive internet debate, and come to think that this is so big and clear that it is obvious that it can be discussed on Wikipedia in a neutral way. I write this having been drawn into an article which appears to have similar problems, Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Hi Dougweller. While posting to the talk page of Slrubenstein I noted a comment you made to him re the problematic Ancient Egyptian race controversy article. I see your discussion about the scope of the article being limited to "scholars, journalists, activists, living in the twentieth century and using an argument over the past to forward present-day agendas." I see also your specific comment that "the article is about the history and development of the controversy, it is not about the race/color of the AE."
Please could I ask you two specific questions, and get a straight answer to both:
1. What is the compelling reason/s why the scope of the article should be limited so as to exclude any discussion about the underlying evidence which parties to the controversy on either side cite (however incorrectly) to support their various claims?
2. If indeed the scope of the article needs to be limited for valid reasons, why then can we not create a separate article to discuss the underlying evidence which parties to the controversy on either side cite(however incorrectly) to support their various claims?
I do not understand why this material, which is clearly relevant and which is thoroughly referenced, should be so ruthlessly suppressed. I heartily agree that Afrocentrist bs should be dealt with as such, but a rational and referenced debate of the actual "evidence" on which the Afrocentrist bs is founded, is surely the best way to clarify the matter to all interested readers. Obviously we need to enforce NPOV and OR etc, and obviously we need to be clear about what is mainstream and what is "fringe", but surely an open and balanced discussion of the "evidence" will clear the air much better than blanket bans and provocative words like "trolls"? I am also concerned that if this article disappears, then Afrocentrist bs will surface across the Wiki in articles like Cleopatra, Tutankhamun and the Sphinx etc - which is how I got to be involved in building this article in the first place.
I would value a straight-forward response please. Wdford (talk) 17:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- As you should know, I didn't make the first statement, so the appropriate place to discuss that is certainly not here. I strongly object to the 'ruthlessly suppressed' bit. You seem to have ignored the suggestion by DBachmann suggesting that some of the material be split into Population history of Egypt, or have I missed something? I'd like to see the controversy article cover "debates over the race of ancient Egyptians actually have been motivated by and reveal something about race relations in the 19th and 20th centuries" and from his post above it looks as though that would also satisfy DBachmann. And it's only by not extending good faith can DBachmann's edit be considered tendentious. And claims such as Panhesy's that there is a "pattern of banning black people who contribute based on inconsistently administered provocations." are just nonsense and are part of the problem here. Dougweller (talk) 17:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- There are lots of problems here, Dougweller. Its perhaps easy for you to strongly object to the 'ruthlessly suppressed' bit - you were not among the group of editors who were banned out of the blue and in violation of WP policy, with no discussion and zero AGF. Please recall also that Dbachmann did not "suggest" splitting off some material, he just went ahead and unilaterally moved part of the content to a separate article, without any discussion far less consensus. Dbachmann has openly adopted a certain POV on this article, and hence I suppose the description "tendentious", but my preferred word would be "disruptive". Personally I'd be very happy to include in the controversy article "debates over the race of ancient Egyptians actually having been motivated by and revealing something about race relations in the 19th and 20th centuries", provided that does not become the sole focus of the article. But notwithstanding the above, my actual questions remain unanswered. Please could you provide straight answers to my two questions? Many thanks Wdford (talk) 21:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Since you won't acknowledge that I didn't make the first statement (but persist in asking for an 'answer' to something I didn't say), and haven't responded to my question, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion. Oh - everyone has a pov, it's best though when they are open about it. Dougweller (talk) 21:10, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry Doug, I acknowledge that you didn't originally make the first statement. The only question I saw in your post was the one about did you miss something about Dbachmann's "suggestion", which I think I answered in full. If there was another question I would be happy to address it, again in full. I am happy that you accept everyone has a right to be open about their POV, although for some reason only some editors get banned for doing so. My questions are not directed at the first statement only, regardless of its origin, my questions are addressing the history of efforts to limit the scope of the article so as to exclude any discussion about the underlying evidence which parties to the controversy cite to support their various claims. It seems that you (among others) support a limited scope for the article, so I ask please could you clarify for me why (in your opinion) you feel the scope should be limited? Wdford (talk) 21:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
- Ok. Ancient Observer thinks there should be one article covering both the history of the controversy and the actual question of AE origins. I think that is undesirable and unnecessary, and wouldn't hold in any case as there would probably be continual suggestions to split it, and I don't mean just by current editors. Among other things it would almost undoubtedly be too long. An article, and there is at least one I believe, discussing the ethnicity of the AE should concentrate on modern sources and not bear the burden of obsolete ideas. Dougweller (talk) 15:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. I am happy to have two articles, with cross-links. I'm sure that this would suit all parties who are working in good faith, as the existing article can then be limited to the history of the controversy as many seem to demand. However, how do we go about doing this so as to avoid accusations of "POV Fork"? Wdford (talk) 17:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Why not ask DBachmann? Seriously. Dougweller (talk) 18:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. I am happy to have two articles, with cross-links. I'm sure that this would suit all parties who are working in good faith, as the existing article can then be limited to the history of the controversy as many seem to demand. However, how do we go about doing this so as to avoid accusations of "POV Fork"? Wdford (talk) 17:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Ransom Everglades
As you might have noted - some guy named TheFeds made BIG changes to the school's entry. I think the Comparable Schools section was useful and shouldn't be eliminated. I agree it needs a reference. I'm contacting the school to find such a reference. Also he replaced the table with an infobox school. I liked it the way it was. I think the infobox is more for religious schools and not college prep schools. Could you help with this ? GroveGuy (talk) 20:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
A threat to vandalize
This is a new one to me--have you ever seen a threat to vandalize other articles if we don't allow an image with questionable copyright to be included in an article? I wonder if this is actually Rock5410, who you indefinitely blocked yesterday due to refusal to discuss copyright issues surrounding images. (Notice that his response to that block has been to delete attempts to discuss with him on his talk page.) Is 122.163.79.68 one of the IP addresses associated with that account? I admit that I'm kind of at a loss here as to what to do, besides my response on that talk page. Suggestions? WeisheitSuchen (talk) 12:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sure it is. I can't do a Check User but none is needed, this is clearly Rock5410 and I've blocked him -- 24 hours right now, we shall see what happens next. Let me know if you think you spot him again. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Sock
My guess would be that JamesLavoie (talk · contribs) is Disfasia (talk · contribs). The account's first article edit was to revert back to Difasia's prefered version of National Holiday (Quebec). I also wonder about Knightofmaat (talk · contribs), whose only contributions are on Difasia's talk page in support of Difasia's arguments. I don't know if that's enough for an SPI / CU or not. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 19:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Block needed?
User Bottracker keeps uploading copyright images under false free licenses. Despite being warned they've continued to do so and just blank their talk page. I've just tagged a load for speedy deletion and don't really want them to have the opportunity to upload even more later on. Polly (Parrot) 19:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
- I've got to give a warning, which I've done, and the files are now deleted by another Admin. Dougweller (talk) 19:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)