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But at least I can edit now ''while'' we have this long ... conversation. [[User:Int21h|Int21h]] ([[User talk:Int21h|talk]]) 01:18, 28 February 2013 (UTC) |
But at least I can edit now ''while'' we have this long ... conversation. [[User:Int21h|Int21h]] ([[User talk:Int21h|talk]]) 01:18, 28 February 2013 (UTC) |
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:To answer your question it was the useragent provided by the HTTP of the software Tor browser that you were using for the two operating systems you used as you mentioned on your talkpage. That and the IPs also matched up. Tor is a shared IP as you would know, so other blocked/banned users showed up on those IPs, and a fair chunk of the huge list of Tor IPs you used had socks that linked back to a longterm banned user who put obscenities in the names of it's socks. Furthermore, there were overlaps between the times that you were using those Tor IPs, and when this sockmaster was using the same Tor IPs. Since you are denying my apology now, I won't try and give you another one, I'm just going to try and work through this with you to get the answers you want the best I can provide them. You are also right, I didn't hold an onwiki community discussion about this, I did it offwiki between checkusers, and then applied the block. I should have done my investigation first, presented it to the community, and then seen how that took it's course. Did I do that? No, bluntly, I fucked it up, and not just a little, I fucked it up bad. Why? Because I did not have the knowledge that the Firefox provided by Tor lied to me about your operating system, web browser, and it's version. Since that version is also a very old version (since were now at Firefox 20 in betas if not higher), not many people use versions that old, and I thought that was more evidence with the already matching Tor IPs, UA matches, and time overlaps. But lets be clear, '''I was absolutely wrong''' and it's going to make me 10x more cautious dealing with Tor IPs now. That point has been nailed into me. Now I am happy to answer your questions about circumstances, but talking to me about ArbCom and the appeals procedure is a dead wall, because I can't change any of that on my own. -- [[User:DeltaQuad|<font color="green">DQ</font>]] [[User_Talk:DeltaQuad|<font color="blue">(ʞlɐʇ)</font>]] 22:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC) |
:To answer your question it was the useragent provided by the HTTP of the software Tor browser that you were using for the two operating systems you used as you mentioned on your talkpage. That and the IPs also matched up. Tor is a shared IP as you would know, so other blocked/banned users showed up on those IPs, and a fair chunk of the huge list of Tor IPs you used had socks that linked back to a longterm banned user who put obscenities in the names of it's socks. Furthermore, there were overlaps between the times that you were using those Tor IPs, and when this sockmaster was using the same Tor IPs. Since you are denying my apology now, I won't try and give you another one, I'm just going to try and work through this with you to get the answers you want the best I can provide them. You are also right, I didn't hold an onwiki community discussion about this, I did it offwiki between checkusers, and then applied the block. I should have done my investigation first, presented it to the community, and then seen how that took it's course. Did I do that? No, bluntly, I fucked it up, and not just a little, I fucked it up bad. Why? Because I did not have the knowledge that the Firefox provided by Tor lied to me about your operating system, web browser, and it's version. Since that version is also a very old version (since were now at Firefox 20 in betas if not higher), not many people use versions that old, and I thought that was more evidence with the already matching Tor IPs, UA matches, and time overlaps. But lets be clear, '''I was absolutely wrong''' and it's going to make me 10x more cautious dealing with Tor IPs now. That point has been nailed into me. Now I am happy to answer your questions about circumstances, but talking to me about ArbCom and the appeals procedure is a dead wall, because I can't change any of that on my own. -- [[User:DeltaQuad|<font color="green">DQ</font>]] [[User_Talk:DeltaQuad|<font color="blue">(ʞlɐʇ)</font>]] 22:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC) |
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::Yes, as to the apologies I would appreciate it because every time I refuse to accept it I look like an asshole. Which I may be, to be sure. I hope you understand it is on principle: people come to expect that apologies must be accepted, or must be accepted right away, or must be accepted publicly. I simply will not commit or contribute to that line of thought. Its time that being politically correct isn't a pejorative. As for my conduct, I simply just did not think a situation would ever come up where I would have to explain myself on these very personal beliefs. They are just that, personal beliefs, and any and all such demands for them will and should be met with scorn, if only because they change so frequently--and everything one says can and will be used against me in the court of public opinion, thereby holding one to beliefs he may have held in error. But I digress. I simply was not planning for anyone to change their minds or do the right thing here. And yes, my conduct was possibly vindictive, possibly still vindictive, but I will not suppress my feelings, or censor my speech, at the drop of someone else's hat. Yes, that's probably in violation of community policy or ArbCom policy or whatever. I considered myself unbound by any such external moral systems after I was banned--or permanently blocked or whatever. Was I wrong? Possibly, but I'll tell you I would do it again. |
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::This was my first introduction to the CheckUser was when this started; to ArbCom as well. This whole affair is bringing major flaws in this whole procedure, this whole system, to my attention. Very little in all this has made me less angry. That this discussion has started, yes, this is good. But jeez. All that to get here? |
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::This is why I was so pissed. I knew, as I wrote on my talk page, there was nothing besides my IPs that was personally identifiable for anyone who knew what they are doing. This is by design. None of this should have ever come up, that my User-Agent is apparently spoofed (fuck if I knew), but now its all in the fucking open. I view any and all information about my location and software used as a vulnerability. Vulnerabilities sometimes do no damage, sometimes vulnerability can have far worse consequences. You may not realize this, but the CheckUser has a government counterpart in many countries. And when those CheckUsers find you, when they match up personally identifiable information, it doesn't result in a fucking ban, it results in violence, and there is no violence like government violence. These CheckUsers will fuck your shit up. They will take turns in 8 hour shifts fucking your shit up, shift after shift and into your night and day, until you are fucking begging them to kill you. I'll bet you think I'm fucking joking, or overracting or something. These things are not relegated to history, they do not always happen to someone else, the world is not like America or Wikipedia. And yes, they should thank their lucky fucking stars there are so many of us, here in America and some in Europe and elsewhere, that spend a ridiculous amount of time and effort making sure those CheckUsers can't. ''Any information you think you have that is identifiable is, at best, identifiable only of stupid or disadvantaged trolls.'' A smart and resourceful troll or sockpuppet or whatever the hell you guys hunt is going to, or at least should if he was smart, use public computers--libraries, public wifis, etc.--or some other form of open or semi-open proxy. He's isn't going to use his real fucking name and set up a fucking 5 year old account to get an IPBE. And for the open proxies, these crap IRC-era proxy scans will soon be at an end I hope, but until then there are plenty of alternatives. A smart troll is going to go into "about:config"--no plugin needed. And with these simple steps, what else does the CheckUser have? That's right, you guessed it--judgement based on editing content. That's what all this hinges on for the hard to catch troll. Editing content. You are targeting people for content. This is why I assume all this is malicious--no competent admin is going to base their decisions on ''easily spoofable'' information tracking down a hardened troll, and my IPBE should have covered me from the whole IP-based decision making. I simply thought it would be common knowledge, I mean "general.useragent.override" has been there for like fucking ever. And that's the solution, to ban a ''User'' account? WTF? That doesn't even make any fucking sense, but with the reasoning I have seen thus far I am less and less surprised. And all that is because of ArbCom and their policies, so strike fucking one. |
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::The fact that, as I said from the beginning, you were not aware of all this? You fucked up? You should have known? Its all your fault? And ArbCom bestowed on you, from what I can tell, a pretty fucking awesome power? That's strike two against ArbCom. |
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::And to the so-called "appeal" procedure. Does anyone see all this as anything but arbitrary? As a giant and ongoing fuck up on ArbCom's part that they refuse to even discuss? Does anyone see that if it were not because of ArbCom, you would not have been able to do this as an emergency, that your actions are ''still within policy'', wrong as though they may be? I mean, its hard to not miss anything as I sum up my argument in one swing like this, but the appeal procedure is a joke, non-existent. It contradicts not only what I have come to expect, but itself. They have written it as if its not the first and only appeal available. That's a fucking lie. They have wrote it to be ambiguous that a permablock, given all the information we know now, ''still'' would be in order. Community discussion is fruitless (you cannot be overridden, and as you say it was already "verified" by the only "community" that could do anything), fruitless discussion is forbidden (TROLL! TROLL! GET THE TROLL!), and community discussion is required. I mean, what the fuck? A violation of any of those is grounds to deny the so-called appeal. Is that suppose to be a joke? Am I reading something wrong? '''That's fucking strike three, and that is why they're out.''' |
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::To top it if they as much as told me to go fuck myself--sorry, told me to discuss it with you, using my personal email account, the one that might has well have had my fucking social security number printed on it (ohhh then just change it after your done--we're only volunteers here you know), or to switch it to some other email account, after you were plainly and explicitly ignoring me. (Lets not revisit why or if it was correct.) That's just being a fucking asshole. [[User:Int21h|Int21h]] ([[User talk:Int21h|talk]]) 00:18, 1 March 2013 (UTC) |
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== A barnstar for you! == |
== A barnstar for you! == |
Revision as of 00:18, 1 March 2013
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Poop patrol
Hi DQ, any chance of a poop patrol run in time for this weekend? ϢereSpielChequers 10:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for the run, but I think it fell over mid way and only did half the queries. Any chance of another, perhaps more complete run? ϢereSpielChequers 00:50, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
- Looking into things, it appears it completed the full run. I can do another one for you, but would like to diagnose any issues before I start it again. Could you point out the issue? -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 22:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, yes about half the queries were not run, including pubic and staring. ϢereSpielChequers 01:23, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't remember seeing any errors last time. I've set it to run again, and log the output to a file for later reading if there seems to be an issue again. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 20:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Hi DQ that run stopped after 18 queries, and the previous one after 16. the good news is that they were different queries so if you keep running it we will eventually get a full run. My suspicion is that labs has some limit that the program reached. ϢereSpielChequers 09:43, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Despite what other sources say, this is still TS. It's been having several issues coping with the increased load (not by me) and the internet failing. If I read correctly, I think that is the issue. It's probably time I do a full run from labs. You ok with a full run now? -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 09:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Sure, go ahead. ϢereSpielChequers 09:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, she's running now. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 10:39, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, the extension to template space is now working well, thanks for that improvement. But it stopped after 20 queries, that's certainly enough to keep me busy for a day or two, but it is still only running a few queries per run. ϢereSpielChequers 13:09, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, she's running now. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 10:39, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Sure, go ahead. ϢereSpielChequers 09:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Despite what other sources say, this is still TS. It's been having several issues coping with the increased load (not by me) and the internet failing. If I read correctly, I think that is the issue. It's probably time I do a full run from labs. You ok with a full run now? -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 09:47, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- Hi DQ that run stopped after 18 queries, and the previous one after 16. the good news is that they were different queries so if you keep running it we will eventually get a full run. My suspicion is that labs has some limit that the program reached. ϢereSpielChequers 09:43, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
- I don't remember seeing any errors last time. I've set it to run again, and log the output to a file for later reading if there seems to be an issue again. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 20:13, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, yes about half the queries were not run, including pubic and staring. ϢereSpielChequers 01:23, 31 January 2013 (UTC)
- Looking into things, it appears it completed the full run. I can do another one for you, but would like to diagnose any issues before I start it again. Could you point out the issue? -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 22:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
- The limit given by the software is 100, and I still don't know what it's catching on. I'll watch it now as I launch it for another run. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 15:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Sock check: additional user
Hi. Regarding Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Pproctor, thanks to your analysis, I uncovered yet another potential sock that may be associated with that investigation. I've added the user name to that page. Could you take a look and, if appropriate, also analyze that new name? Thanks. --Noleander (talk) 21:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
Incidently on the mediation acceptance page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Peter_Proctor, there is a claim an editor was a sock or meat puppet by some of the very people you have found to actually be such, can that be shown to be cleared up and such allegation be removed if unwarranted so it doesn't effect the mediation?
" Also, for whatever it is worth, it should be noted that the filing editor of this case is also a DR/N volunteer and was asked to step back and contribute to the dispute as a regular editor due to accusations of sock puppetry and lack of impartiality that I have yet to see any evidence of. The editor should be seen and looked at now as an involved party and not a DR/N volunteer.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:01, 18 January 2013 (UTC)"
If you google and go to a site called CorporationWiki under "Peter Proctor" and/or John McGinness along with companies Nanoflux, Novelta, Drugscom Inc" up will come this interactive diagram with a web of connections, particularly if you click on Peter Proctors icon there, I do not know if these web of people connections shown, including Proctor with McGinness match your findings or assist in someway.Inhouse expert (talk) 16:01, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- You would have to talk to Amadscientist if you wish to remove his comments from the RfM page, I can't remove them for him. Thank you for your research, but at this point it doesn't seem to change much unless I am missing something. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 18:35, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
User:Qassam3983
User:2.133.92.82 seems to be a sock of him, he keeps trying to un-strikeout Qassam3983's vote on Talk:Depiction of Israel in Palestinian textbooks. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:39, 23 February 2013 (UTC)
- 122.57.148.12 too. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 08:14, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Please read
Please read my message to the ArbCom, as it directly concerns you. Int21h (talk) 00:31, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
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- I appreciate your reply. Its a little late and a dollar short, but at least you said something of substance finally. And yes, I will continue on this trail, even though I know it does not lead to paradise. On the contrary, I know this will get me nothing but very powerful enemies and attacks from all directions. No one ever said doing the right thing was going to make you popular.
- And your [censored] right I made personal attacks. I was banned. Not just banned, but emergency banned outta nowhere with no effective means to bring it to the attention of the community. My conduct was in no way covered by Wikipedia policy, given this affair has little or nothing to do with Wikipedia, besides the Wikipedia ArbCom being the source of your privledge which I seek to revoke (if only temporarily). My personal attacks ended as soon as your personal attack ended. I do not accept your apology nor will I tender one. The fact that ArbCom has let 3 other CheckUsers that obviously made the same ridiculously outrageous mistake just adds fuel to my fire. I will not troll them: I will seek to have their CheckUser status revoked. Please, please do not confuse the two.
- I will not "troll" you. I did not even think we would ever carry on a conversation. If you consider this whole affair to be "trolling" by me, then I think this only gives more weight to my hunch that this is only the tip of the iceberg, that you ban users for things that do not warrant bans, and definitely not emergency bans with no public or even private discussion, and no much as even a shred of proof to refute. Your refusal to provide proof would likely have been a death knell for these so-called "appeals" for many others you have likely persecuted. How many "simple mistakes" you have made and how many good, competent editors are now banned for life? They cannot say, to be sure, because they have been silenced. I consider myself to be lucky that, yes, apparently there is someone on this board that is not incompetent. And I definitely think that should come up if and when they renew their membership. But they should renew their request for membership, in competition against everyone else who will potentially run.
- You seek to minimize a complete and permanent emergency ban with absolutely no discussion, and no good reason for the ban to be emergency, as a simple mistake. The fact that it was an emergency ban with no prior discussion, even though I was obviously not being disruptive, is why I believe, yess still believe, it was malicious. Why else the emergency? Why else the complete lack of discussion even after the ban? Oh, right, you sent me emails that I magically didn't get, which is in no way your fault. Just another mistake I guess. But what mistake can possibly be more destructive? What, prey tell, is not a simple mistake then? How many is too many for you to step down? For you to be removed? How many? How many good editors must never be heard from again? Int21h (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- You were blocked, not banned, and it has since been lifted, let's keep that factor straight. Yes, you were emergency blocked by me. I understand you were frustrated with the block, and I don't blame you for your language used, and I'm not asking for an apology, nor have I asked for one in the past. There was a private discussion off-wiki with other CheckUsers in which ANY checkuser here on enwiki had the ability to review. I got three others to certify the results and two of those three to agree to an emergency block (they all agreed to a block if answers didn't satisfy), and then I made the block. I have not persecuted others, and that's another attack at me, but your still upset with me, so i'll let that go. All blocks I make are with reason justified under Wikipedia Policy, and the moment different light comes to, I reverse it. I do not seek to minimize it, I just seek to have a civil discussion if you wish, and no, civil is not going after my flags and the rest of ArbCom's positions. I'm not going to force you to believe anything, I'll let you come to your own conclusions. Also, the email I did send in reply is pasted below this thread and I can give you exact technical information about it. It was a disruptive mistake to your editing, I will absolutely agree with that. I will not however resign my flags unless I or my fellow CheckUsers or a good chunk of administrators agree that my opinion and judgement are clouded to the point where I can't hold an objective opinion. Again, you can still believe what you wish, I'm not forcing anything on you. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 07:47, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- You seek to minimize a complete and permanent emergency ban with absolutely no discussion, and no good reason for the ban to be emergency, as a simple mistake. The fact that it was an emergency ban with no prior discussion, even though I was obviously not being disruptive, is why I believe, yess still believe, it was malicious. Why else the emergency? Why else the complete lack of discussion even after the ban? Oh, right, you sent me emails that I magically didn't get, which is in no way your fault. Just another mistake I guess. But what mistake can possibly be more destructive? What, prey tell, is not a simple mistake then? How many is too many for you to step down? For you to be removed? How many? How many good editors must never be heard from again? Int21h (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
Email
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From: DeltaQuad Wikipedia <address@removed.com> |
- If the change lie with Wikipedia or ArbCom Policy, then I will take what I can get. But it obviously is not going to come from this ArbCom; a new ArbCom must be constituted. Too much time has gone by for me to believe they will do anything but nothing. And you have to understand that my appropriate response simply cannot be to just take your apology on its face and leave things as they were--as they are. Something must give, something must change. And there is where ArbCom and I do not see eye-to-eye, they simply are not concerned, they simply think all fault lies with you, or that no fault lies with anyone, I am not sure because they say and do nothing. I reject that. I reject that you and your three amigos are the only one who are responsible, and that nothing besides an "apology" is required, or even that an apology means anything. (Is that what Wikipedia is? An apologists playground?) So the question I asked was "What must change" coupled with "What can I change"? I had to make a decision.
- THE MEAT OF MY ARGUMENT
- This was simply to drastic an action, with no prior discussion in the community. And to make things worse, and why I place blame squarely on ArbCom, is it is ArbCom's doing, what you did. It is their doing. ArbCom made those policies. ArbCom gave you the power. ArbCom immunized you from any and all community discussion or meaningful review. What?! Why are you above reproach? ArbCom decrees that any Administrator, as you so eloquently stated in your permablock messaged, who attempts to overrule you would be himself potentially permablocked. And lets say an Admin did just that? They would have broken the rules, and though I would have been unpermablocked technically they would have to stay permablocked. I reject that logic. It is the logic of tyrants. ArbCom still to this day does not demand you provide an explanation; they don't even demand you provide an apology (to be fair neither do I).
- Because that is the ultimate exoneration of your actions, that it was within Wikipedia--nay ArbCom--Policy. But unfortunately what releases you binds them. I refuse to accept that a six year editor, quite plainly doing nothing wrong as a User required a User block, an emergency User block at that. Your lack of explanation made me angry, to be sure. Its as if I was doing something minding my own business and some guy comes out of out nowhere and wants to take away my "WikiLife". And without any further discussion or warning, immediately proceeds to do the deed. Oops, sorry, you looked like someone else. I was angry, I was permablocked, and my appeal was or was (obviously) going to be denied, that much was clear.
- But so what? Is that the solution for the next time this happens? For the User who has been "accidentally" surprise permablocked to have no other recourse besides a single appeal directly to the court of last resort (ArbCom), with nothing but a pen and paper and a "reasonable amount of time"? I threw that last part in because the appeal procedures, now as it was then, only require "community discussion", which is quite obviously precluded by both the permablock and the admonition that you as a CheckUser are immune from community discussion. Their silence, ambiguity, and inability to foresee the results of such an inflexible policy, this is what irritates me, as it is their doing, and theirs alone. Its ArbCom policy. This may come off as insulting, and I'm sure if I didn't say this may come of as insulting, but, they would surely permablock me for it and end this quickly (Ὁ λόγος δηλοῖ ὅτι οἷα ἡ πρόθεσίς ἐστιν ἀδικεῖν, παρ᾿ αὐτοῖς οὐδὲ δικαία ἀπολογία ἰσχύει), but oh'well: they were the hunters, and you were nothing but the hound. I will not be content with choking out some errant dog in a dark alleyway. I will not be swayed by his puppy wuppy eyes as his master releases yet more hounds on the world to do what they were trained to do. I think it would do all of us editors a disservice.
- Hence my problem with ArbCom. And I can do nothing about the procedure. That is all internal ArbCom policy, their prerogative. I will not waste my time going through a pointless exercises of pleading for change with an ArbCom that plainly does not care about my problem. They have bigger problems to deal with, like trivial editwars on trivial articles. The fact that I must plead with you--who only now admits you were wrong--after you outright said, and I quote, you and "several CheckUsers" had "verified the results" is folly. They say I must plead with the judge after sentence has been pronounced before I can appeal, but also say if I squabble with the judge, and other contradictory nonsense, I will be permablocked.
- SOME RANTING
- I have heard it before. It is the language of tyrants. It is time we stop pretending that oh no not ArbCom, ArbCom would never, could never... They do all this as volunteers, we simply could not live without them, without our dear leaders, and no one else could possibly be Caesar, any claim to the contrary is tantamount to climbing buildings as spiderman yadda yadda yadda. They must quit modelling their actions on the judiciary of Germany or the International Criminal Court, whose only vaguely similar counterpart in the United States as I have pointed out is the US Guantanamo military commissions, and more like what we expect here in America and England. Germany is used to it, it is all she has ever known, accept for brief periods of revolutionary fervor or American occupation. But this is not Germany. Wikimedia and Wikipedia, and definitely not the English Wikipedia and ArbCom, should not be run like Germany and their Germanic and Latin counterparts. More is expected of us. What happens here matters, and every single good editor lost because of malfeasance or incompetence is a punishing blow, and there are so many one can take before it spells the end, maybe only even one could be enough. A single court (no chambers or presidiums or working committees with a role of the dice to see who will decide your fate) with a cohesive and identifiable policy that can be relied on, something you will not find in any other court system. Because that's what they are, a judiciary. They judge or judice. Its time to start asking some serious questions. Its time to stop pretending Wikipedia exists in a vacuum or that this is someone else's problem.
- IN CLOSING
- And on top of it is the notion that your powers directly result as a delegation of their powers, so they should be held responsible for your [censored] ups. ArbCom is responsible. If they are not, then who? What is an appeal if not to a superior power? It would not be an appeal then, it would be a lie. An outright lie to claim such a procedure is an appeal. Yes, I believe they are both a superior power and responsible for their subordinates. What I am asking for is a serious review of what happened here--and all I got was threats of permabans and other adverse actions. So be it then, this is how it will begin.
- The more I discuss this the more I realize it isn't you. The more I read about ArbCom's behaviour the more vital I see it is to get these guys out. And so, like I said, this is how I see all this ending: they must step down, they must ban me, or I must incessantly call for their removal and any and all appropriate times and places. No, I will not disrupt editing, or at least make an effort not to. But do not despair, do not think all this is just because of you and your three amigos, I actually am somewhat thankful that now I see it is bigger than that, bigger than you or me or this ban or any other. Because if not me then who? Those who have been unfairly banned? If not now then when? It is ArbCom. Its a pattern. And its ArbCom who is to blame, and ArbCom should do the right thing--something, anything--or suffer the consequences. And since many months now have passed, with out so much as even a peep, there it is.
- FIAT IVSTITIA ET PEREAT MVNDVS ET HOC NVLLATENVS OMITTATIS
And, to be clear, I think you still have not given me an explanation. You have said you were sorry, about which I could care less, but you haven't told me what happened. Still. What information did you rely on? That is what I asked for from day 1. (Yes, other things were said.) Was it the HTTP headers? Was it my IP? What else is there? Do you know now that there are those of us out there, many of us, who do not want to be easily identified by every scumbag on the Internet? And that we know how? And that its easy and only getting easier? I do not want an apology. I want, at a minimum, an explanation. The fact that you keep ignoring my demands, as ArbCom is, is still quite frustrating.
But at least I can edit now while we have this long ... conversation. Int21h (talk) 01:18, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
- To answer your question it was the useragent provided by the HTTP of the software Tor browser that you were using for the two operating systems you used as you mentioned on your talkpage. That and the IPs also matched up. Tor is a shared IP as you would know, so other blocked/banned users showed up on those IPs, and a fair chunk of the huge list of Tor IPs you used had socks that linked back to a longterm banned user who put obscenities in the names of it's socks. Furthermore, there were overlaps between the times that you were using those Tor IPs, and when this sockmaster was using the same Tor IPs. Since you are denying my apology now, I won't try and give you another one, I'm just going to try and work through this with you to get the answers you want the best I can provide them. You are also right, I didn't hold an onwiki community discussion about this, I did it offwiki between checkusers, and then applied the block. I should have done my investigation first, presented it to the community, and then seen how that took it's course. Did I do that? No, bluntly, I fucked it up, and not just a little, I fucked it up bad. Why? Because I did not have the knowledge that the Firefox provided by Tor lied to me about your operating system, web browser, and it's version. Since that version is also a very old version (since were now at Firefox 20 in betas if not higher), not many people use versions that old, and I thought that was more evidence with the already matching Tor IPs, UA matches, and time overlaps. But lets be clear, I was absolutely wrong and it's going to make me 10x more cautious dealing with Tor IPs now. That point has been nailed into me. Now I am happy to answer your questions about circumstances, but talking to me about ArbCom and the appeals procedure is a dead wall, because I can't change any of that on my own. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 22:11, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, as to the apologies I would appreciate it because every time I refuse to accept it I look like an asshole. Which I may be, to be sure. I hope you understand it is on principle: people come to expect that apologies must be accepted, or must be accepted right away, or must be accepted publicly. I simply will not commit or contribute to that line of thought. Its time that being politically correct isn't a pejorative. As for my conduct, I simply just did not think a situation would ever come up where I would have to explain myself on these very personal beliefs. They are just that, personal beliefs, and any and all such demands for them will and should be met with scorn, if only because they change so frequently--and everything one says can and will be used against me in the court of public opinion, thereby holding one to beliefs he may have held in error. But I digress. I simply was not planning for anyone to change their minds or do the right thing here. And yes, my conduct was possibly vindictive, possibly still vindictive, but I will not suppress my feelings, or censor my speech, at the drop of someone else's hat. Yes, that's probably in violation of community policy or ArbCom policy or whatever. I considered myself unbound by any such external moral systems after I was banned--or permanently blocked or whatever. Was I wrong? Possibly, but I'll tell you I would do it again.
- This was my first introduction to the CheckUser was when this started; to ArbCom as well. This whole affair is bringing major flaws in this whole procedure, this whole system, to my attention. Very little in all this has made me less angry. That this discussion has started, yes, this is good. But jeez. All that to get here?
- This is why I was so pissed. I knew, as I wrote on my talk page, there was nothing besides my IPs that was personally identifiable for anyone who knew what they are doing. This is by design. None of this should have ever come up, that my User-Agent is apparently spoofed (fuck if I knew), but now its all in the fucking open. I view any and all information about my location and software used as a vulnerability. Vulnerabilities sometimes do no damage, sometimes vulnerability can have far worse consequences. You may not realize this, but the CheckUser has a government counterpart in many countries. And when those CheckUsers find you, when they match up personally identifiable information, it doesn't result in a fucking ban, it results in violence, and there is no violence like government violence. These CheckUsers will fuck your shit up. They will take turns in 8 hour shifts fucking your shit up, shift after shift and into your night and day, until you are fucking begging them to kill you. I'll bet you think I'm fucking joking, or overracting or something. These things are not relegated to history, they do not always happen to someone else, the world is not like America or Wikipedia. And yes, they should thank their lucky fucking stars there are so many of us, here in America and some in Europe and elsewhere, that spend a ridiculous amount of time and effort making sure those CheckUsers can't. Any information you think you have that is identifiable is, at best, identifiable only of stupid or disadvantaged trolls. A smart and resourceful troll or sockpuppet or whatever the hell you guys hunt is going to, or at least should if he was smart, use public computers--libraries, public wifis, etc.--or some other form of open or semi-open proxy. He's isn't going to use his real fucking name and set up a fucking 5 year old account to get an IPBE. And for the open proxies, these crap IRC-era proxy scans will soon be at an end I hope, but until then there are plenty of alternatives. A smart troll is going to go into "about:config"--no plugin needed. And with these simple steps, what else does the CheckUser have? That's right, you guessed it--judgement based on editing content. That's what all this hinges on for the hard to catch troll. Editing content. You are targeting people for content. This is why I assume all this is malicious--no competent admin is going to base their decisions on easily spoofable information tracking down a hardened troll, and my IPBE should have covered me from the whole IP-based decision making. I simply thought it would be common knowledge, I mean "general.useragent.override" has been there for like fucking ever. And that's the solution, to ban a User account? WTF? That doesn't even make any fucking sense, but with the reasoning I have seen thus far I am less and less surprised. And all that is because of ArbCom and their policies, so strike fucking one.
- The fact that, as I said from the beginning, you were not aware of all this? You fucked up? You should have known? Its all your fault? And ArbCom bestowed on you, from what I can tell, a pretty fucking awesome power? That's strike two against ArbCom.
- And to the so-called "appeal" procedure. Does anyone see all this as anything but arbitrary? As a giant and ongoing fuck up on ArbCom's part that they refuse to even discuss? Does anyone see that if it were not because of ArbCom, you would not have been able to do this as an emergency, that your actions are still within policy, wrong as though they may be? I mean, its hard to not miss anything as I sum up my argument in one swing like this, but the appeal procedure is a joke, non-existent. It contradicts not only what I have come to expect, but itself. They have written it as if its not the first and only appeal available. That's a fucking lie. They have wrote it to be ambiguous that a permablock, given all the information we know now, still would be in order. Community discussion is fruitless (you cannot be overridden, and as you say it was already "verified" by the only "community" that could do anything), fruitless discussion is forbidden (TROLL! TROLL! GET THE TROLL!), and community discussion is required. I mean, what the fuck? A violation of any of those is grounds to deny the so-called appeal. Is that suppose to be a joke? Am I reading something wrong? That's fucking strike three, and that is why they're out.
- To top it if they as much as told me to go fuck myself--sorry, told me to discuss it with you, using my personal email account, the one that might has well have had my fucking social security number printed on it (ohhh then just change it after your done--we're only volunteers here you know), or to switch it to some other email account, after you were plainly and explicitly ignoring me. (Lets not revisit why or if it was correct.) That's just being a fucking asshole. Int21h (talk) 00:18, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar | |
For your work at SPI over the last several months, where you've taken up the work that nobody else wants to do, I am happy to use my 80,000th edit to give you this barnstar. Rschen7754 10:58, 27 February 2013 (UTC) |
- Thanks Rschen, and congrats on 80k edits :) -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 18:36, 27 February 2013 (UTC)
- DQ, I saw the dust-up at the Arb talk page, and it made me want to stop by here and offer you a few words of appreciation and support. As it happens, I saw the PProcter SPI case yesterday, and came away from it feeling that you were a Wiki-hero for solving that unfortunate situation. You are doing good work, and it's appreciated. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:50, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
- If there is such a thing as endorsing a barnstar, please consider me to have just done that :) Someguy1221 (talk) 01:06, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
- DQ, I saw the dust-up at the Arb talk page, and it made me want to stop by here and offer you a few words of appreciation and support. As it happens, I saw the PProcter SPI case yesterday, and came away from it feeling that you were a Wiki-hero for solving that unfortunate situation. You are doing good work, and it's appreciated. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:50, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
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