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:::And I'm an expert in detecting administrator bullshit. In your case a little tantrum-filled kid of an administrator who has no idea of what the word "gracious" means. Maybe one day I'll have a go at creating that "Dbachmannisms" list - one thing is certain, I'll never lack material to add to it. And, sorry to disapoint your racist arrogance, but I am not Armenian. [[User:Meowy|<font face="Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif" color="#0088BB">'''Meowy'''</font>]] 02:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC) |
:::And I'm an expert in detecting administrator bullshit. In your case a little tantrum-filled kid of an administrator who has no idea of what the word "gracious" means. Maybe one day I'll have a go at creating that "Dbachmannisms" list - one thing is certain, I'll never lack material to add to it. And, sorry to disapoint your racist arrogance, but I am not Armenian. [[User:Meowy|<font face="Trebuchet MS, verdana, sans serif" color="#0088BB">'''Meowy'''</font>]] 02:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Would you be interested in commenting on the use of [[Johann Schiltberger]] as a source here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh#Schiltberger]? My foremost concern with this article is that primary sources are used very selectively, as is the case with this particular one. [[User:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#464646">'''''Grand'''''</span>]][[User talk:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#808080">'''''master'''''</span>]] 08:41, 17 April 2012 (UTC) |
:::Would you be interested in commenting on the use of [[Johann Schiltberger]] as a source here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh#Schiltberger]? My foremost concern with this article is that primary sources are used very selectively, as is the case with this particular one. [[User:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#464646">'''''Grand'''''</span>]][[User talk:Grandmaster|<span style="font-family:Arial;color:#808080">'''''master'''''</span>]] 08:41, 17 April 2012 (UTC) |
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== Personal Information == |
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"Which I hoped you were going to acquire over time, as you said you started to take university courses, but so far I cannot see it has done much with your misplaced hyperbole" [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ADawn_goddess&diff=488139593&oldid=488139146]. ''Excuse me''? I suggest you start explaining on what grounds you've produced this fantasy personal information about me before I take the next step with this. [[User:Bloodofox|:bloodofox:]] ([[User talk:Bloodofox|talk]]) 21:01, 19 April 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:01, 19 April 2012
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Manipulation, pseudohistory, sockpuppetry & persistent vandalism
Please check this link because we have one serious issue. User Tirgil34 (known for pseudohistoric claims at Scythian languages) along with Maikolaser (most likely his sockpuppet) have started aggressive Turanist agenda not just on English Wikipedia but also all others, even Commons. There are two issues:
- File:SogdiansNorthernQiStellae550CE.jpg - He/They've started to change date at commons from 550 to 700CE just to prove Heptalitian Sogdian dress is actually "Turkic". Then, he/they added false descriptions to English articles containing that picture. Photo is named after "550CE" by photographer, Northern Qi dynasty clearly ruled in second half of 6th century, and I even put reliable sources which date that stele to 560's. However, he/they are persistent to change all descriptions, despite source which he/they've used as "proof" clearly states dresses from 5th and 6th century are Heptalitian Sogdian, not Turkic.
- File:QizilDonors.jpg - He/They've tried to remove this photo in all Tocharian-related articles claiming that it's "false" and Tocharians are actually "Turks from beginning". You can check it in most upper link I've gave you, but I hope that my comment still stands there because he/they've already tried to remove it.
I've contacted Dougweller regarding to this issue also. Cheers, mr. O. --217.24.133.219 (talk) 02:39, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
- Beside the fact that we are Germans: Again, calm down, nobody claimed that what you have mentioned. And nobody is a Turanist here.
- File:SogdiansNorthernQiStellae550CE.jpg - It's not Heptalitian, it's Sogdian. Please don't manipulate again with a wrong source, which does not exist.
- File:QizilDonors.jpg - The point is that the picture has nothing to do with Tocharians, nothing more.
- This is consensus in every case. Please stop vandalism, persian nationalism and using 2 IP's for it 217.24.133.219///109.165.161.93.
- Tirgil34 is right. You were warned many times on the talk pages. With the next revert we will report you. Making false suspicion on Dbachmann's talk page does not help you anyway. We have warned you on the talk pages: 1, 2, 3.
- Regarding the removal of a part of your comment, my answer was: "This is Talk:Tocharian languages not Talk:Sogdiana". Maikolaser (talk) 03:54, 15 March 2012 (CET)
Yeah, Tirgil34 has a long history of pushing Turanist nonsense. So please ban them already, they have had their fair chance to edit responsibly. If Tigril34 is a German, I must assume he (hardly "she") is not just a German so much as a "German", or else I would be at a loss to explain the obsession with Pan-Turkism. A German would hardly declare he is a Defender of the good old German Neutrality. Tigril34 is just adding insult to injury by taking the piss out of his host nation.
This doesn't go to say that matters stand better in the Persian nationalist camp, these guys form a regular wikimafia and their own nationalist nonsense for some reason cannot be touched or they make mincemeat of you. So far we have been able to deal with the Turanist trolls more or less efficiently. One kind of misbehaviour does not excuse another, but if you look at the Cyrus cylinder fuckfest, you will agree that Wikipedia has more pressing problems with the Persian cranks than with the Turkish ones. --dab (𒁳) 11:04, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
- This is to notify you of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Tirgil34 of that user. --Cold Season (talk) 13:01, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
- Nice to see I was proved right again. :) Since I'm well informed about pseudo-history from SW Asian area I'll continue to inform you or Doug if I see something suspicious (last time it was this [1]) as I promised 3 years ago. Cheers, mr. banned O. --109.165.253.255 (talk) 19:48, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
We are still too lenient with this type of editor. It has always been crystal clear that Tirgil34 is not editing constructively, or in the interest of the project. Hence he should have been warned in no uncertain terms, and then banned. But we are getting there. By comparison to the drawn-out dramas of the past over such editors, this has been comparatively painless. --dab (𒁳) 09:48, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Template:Homer infobox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:46, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Kurdish anachronisms
Could you please assure the fine people at Talk:Subartu that, despite what some supposedly reliable sources (it's sad that this kind of crackpot idea can be published and given the appearance of a respected academic position) might say, there are no modern Kurdish tribes with an identifiable history precisely in their current location going back to the days of Sargon of Akkad? Quick, before Izady's claim is discovered by more Kurds and spreads further through Wikipedia. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:43, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- got to love how the "Sumerian/Akkadian sources" are supposed to mention the modern tribe. Not some ancient predecessor of the modern tribe, but actually the modern tribe itself. I do not think much debate on the credibility of such claims is necessary.
- of course, the proper way of presenting this would be "Izady (1992) presents the opinion that the name of the modern Zibari tribe is in some way derived from the toponym Subartu." This is an etymological hypothesis, to be more than a random kling-klang postulate would need some sort of substantiation by a professional Iranist. --dab (𒁳) 13:52, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
- Except that, to emphasise this point once again, Izady does not even mention "Subartu" – the connection of "Saubaru"/"Sibaru" with "'Subartu" was made by some editor, hence, we have a chain of two kling-klang etymologies (one by Izady, one OR) connecting the modern tribe and the ancient toponym. Lovely! --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:14, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Here we go again; another Kurdish lad with Izady as "holy encyclopaedia" - named Gomada (contributions). He's forcing Gutian language among "Kurdish history" category, Buyids, Ziyarids, Sallarids as Dailamites are "Kurdish", and Badi' al-Zaman al-Hamadani (labeled Arabic even by Iranica) is "Kurd", etc. Greetings, Mr. O. --46.239.25.119 (talk) 11:47, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- Before lie to people, look at references for Buyids. a book written by Lokman I. Meho and Kelly L. Maglaughlin, its written in 1968. Why do you think that, you know more than those people? How can you delete references as you want? And about IZADY, he is a scholar, you cant judge him because of his nationality!--Gomada (talk) 12:00, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- Gomada is using among other sources this which says the Median Empire was Kurdish (and is used as a source in other articles). Per the publisher, it's an RS, but the editors are:
- LOKMAN I. MEHO is a Ph.D. candidate at the School of Information and Library Science, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. He is the author of The Kurds and Kurdistan: A Selective and Annotated Bibliography (Greenwood, 1997) and Libraries and Information in the Arab World: An Annotated Bibliography (Greenwood, 1999), and is working on a documentary history of the Kurdish question in U.S. government publications.
- Before lie to people, look at references for Buyids. a book written by Lokman I. Meho and Kelly L. Maglaughlin, its written in 1968. Why do you think that, you know more than those people? How can you delete references as you want? And about IZADY, he is a scholar, you cant judge him because of his nationality!--Gomada (talk) 12:00, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- KELLY L. MAGLAUGHLIN is a Ph.D. student at the School of Information and Library Science, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill.
- Meho, who wrote the bit about the Median empire being Kurdish, is Kurdish himself. That doesn't exactly disqualify himn of course, but at the time he wrote this he was only a PhD candidate and is contradicting a number of other reliable sources. I ran into this editor at Adiabene which now says in the lead that it is Kurdish but doesn't mention this in the body of the article. Dougweller (talk) 12:10, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- I have noticed that most refs cited by Gomada such as Izadi and Meho only offers a list of people and kingdom that were supposedly Kurdish. However, more specialised sources never make such claims. (see for example Iranica's entries [2][3]).--Rafy talk 12:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- Dear RAFY, you and others mostly forget that, There is a Kurdish culture which is trying to steal by Turks, Arabs and Persians. Its hundereds of years, Kurds cant tell their history to world. Because, Turkey, Syria, Iran and Iraq tried to obstruct that. They know that, if World knows reality about kurds and kurdish culture, many things will change aganist those states. Therefore those states tried to hide realities from World. One simple example: Its sixty years Turkish gorverment uses burocracy to change name of a library in EGYPT. Because, Its name is SALADIN AL KURDI's libraray. In all encyclopedis which prepared by turks, persians and arabs, Kurdish identity was forgotten or they try to hide it as musc as possible. There is a claim which says, IZADY is a kurdish natiaonalist. Ok lets think, he is nationalist. But what about the other side? The main editor of Encyclopedia of Iranica, a persian "Ehsan Yarshater". Can you say that, he wasnt nationalist? and how do you know the fact? It doesnt make him the best, if he has written something before the others. If you think like that, Sharaf Khan Badlisi wrote a book 500 years ago and said, Lurs are Kurds. Then why they have seperated from Kurds in Wikipedia? One more thing, the articles you showed in Iranica dont claim, Buyid is persian and Adiabene is assyrian.--Gomada (talk) 12:52, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- I have noticed that most refs cited by Gomada such as Izadi and Meho only offers a list of people and kingdom that were supposedly Kurdish. However, more specialised sources never make such claims. (see for example Iranica's entries [2][3]).--Rafy talk 12:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- When a Kurd tries to protect his culture (We should respect to all cultures), he becomes nationalist. But, when somebody of other nationality does that for their nation, nobody even discuss that. If you think. this is fair, there is no need to waste our time. --Gomada (talk) 12:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
Gomada, what the hell does any of this have to do with Subartu? How is the plight of the Kurdish people related to some Sumerian toponym? You are welcome to campaign for whatever political views you may have, just don't do it on Wikipedia. --dab (𒁳) 17:42, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- Dont you see, i gave answer to RAFY? i think, you should try to be kind. Im not trying to discuss Sumerians. I talked about Buyids and it's changed as i said. Because, Even if it was late, all understood the reality.--Gomada (talk) 12:55, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
3RR violation by Gomada
Take a look at [4]. Alefbe (talk) 21:28, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
well, some kind admin should save us the bother and block this one, as he is clearly not even remotely interested in working on the pedia. I really have no wish to waste breath pretending to "AGF" on cases as obvious as this one. --dab (𒁳) 22:56, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
- Why should some admin block me? I changed Alefbe's mistakes. I should report you (Alefbe). Look at Buyids and see how it is now. Thats funny, Because Alefbe doesnt respect to sources but i become guilty.--Gomada (talk) 13:05, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- son, you are guilty of not even realizing what this website is trying to do. Please pull your own weight if you want to edit here. If you just want to enjoy some ethnic bickering, please take your pent-up anger to some discussion forum where you can tell the word about your feelings and all. Wikipedia is not interested in that. You came to my talkpage and ranted about how [t]here is a Kurdish culture which is trying to steal by Turks, Arabs and Persians in a Middle of a discussion about a Sumerian toponym. This is childish, and it was a mistake on your part, because I am now not even remotely prepared to take you seriously as an editor. You made two mistakes:
- WP:TRUTH: there are ethnic conflicts, but there is never a single "truth" about ethnic conflicts. If you want anyone to listen to who stole whose culture, you need to base your claims on quotable references, complete with a neutral phrasing of who said what
- WP:SCOPE: If you must discuss an ethnic conflict to which you are a party, kindly do it in articles reserved for this topic, and don't post uninvited rants in places where grown-ups are discussing completely unrelated areas of knowledge.
- if you are unable to do this, nobody is going to dream of taking you seriously here. If you check my recent edits, you will find that I am busy writing encyclopedic content, because (gasp) WP:ENC, and I do not have time or inclination to babysit the flamewars taken here by ethnically alienated angry young men. --dab (𒁳) 14:05, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
- son, you are guilty of not even realizing what this website is trying to do. Please pull your own weight if you want to edit here. If you just want to enjoy some ethnic bickering, please take your pent-up anger to some discussion forum where you can tell the word about your feelings and all. Wikipedia is not interested in that. You came to my talkpage and ranted about how [t]here is a Kurdish culture which is trying to steal by Turks, Arabs and Persians in a Middle of a discussion about a Sumerian toponym. This is childish, and it was a mistake on your part, because I am now not even remotely prepared to take you seriously as an editor. You made two mistakes:
Redirect from Pope John Paul III
Changing a redirect into a non-redirect so that you can prod it is not appropriate. Please do not do that again. I personally think the redirect probably should be deleted, but since I don't know any of the details about the subject, I don't want to nominate it at RFD myself. It really wouldn't take much longer to start a discussion at WP:RFD than it would to add the prod tag back, and it certainly would have a better chance of actually getting it deleted than what you have been doing. Calathan (talk) 20:00, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
I found a mistake. I fixed it. Then you jump out of the woodwork and waste my time over nothing. No sir, what you are doing is "inappropriate". If you do not know anything about the subject, why do you take it upon yourself to redirect Pope John Paul III to Antipope? Present a reference on an antipope of that name. You don't have one? Then please stop vandalizing Wikipedia. It is vandalism to create nonsensical redirects. Yes, it is even vandalism when you are restoring vandalism after other people who actually know what they are doing have fixed it. --dab (𒁳) 21:14, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- Your edits are becoming disruptive. Please stop adding the prod tag back to that page. Not only can prods not be used on redirects, prods also can't be restored once contested. I don't understand why you seem to think that deletion policy doesn't apply to you. If you think that the redirect is vandalism, feel free to nominate it for speedy deletion (if it is blatantly false, speedy deletion criterion G3 would apply). However, do not restore the prod again. Calathan (talk) 21:33, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
- you are not only being disruptive, your behaviour is positively moronic. It's good to see that the old wiki traditions are being upheld in the project's bureaucratic underbelly. --dab (𒁳) 10:33, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- You don't seem to understand that adding a prod tag to a redirect or an article that has previously had a prod tag removed will not result in the page being deleted. Admin's generally check to make sure a prod is applicable before deleting the page, so if I didn't remove the prod tag now it would just be removed in seven days when an admin notices the expired prod. Putting a prod on such a page is useless. What you are doing isn't removing vandalism from the encyclopedia, but leaving it there with a useless tag in place. It seems that this specific redirect has been taken to RFD by another user, but if I see you place a prod tag on another redirect I will report you for being disruptive. Calathan (talk) 15:04, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- you are not only being disruptive, your behaviour is positively moronic. It's good to see that the old wiki traditions are being upheld in the project's bureaucratic underbelly. --dab (𒁳) 10:33, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
no, you do not understand that actively restoring vandalism counts as vandalism. Fine, remove the prod tag if you must, but do not restore the vandalised revision of the page. I am taking the painful approach here in order to impress on you that what you are doing is stupid. Therefore, I suppose, I should not be surprised to find that you fail to understand why it is stupid. I do have a delete button, and I could just have deleted this pointless redirect as a completely uncontroversial act of cleanup. What I am trying to do here is to get you to understand that the rules are here to serve the pedia, and not the other way round. I suppose this goes far above your head, so yeah, do "report" me for violating templat syntax and red tape and what have you, anything to keep you from touching article namespace where the grown-ups are trying to build an encyclopedia. --dab (𒁳) 08:05, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- The first time I reverted you, I changed the soft redirect back to a hard redirect. How in the world is that restoring vandalism? The redirect is there either way. I guess the second time I reverted you I could have done something else with the article (like take it to RFD myself), but still, your response of vandalizing the article yourself to insert a false claim about me was clearly inappropriate. I don't see how you can talk about trying to build the encyclopedia when you do things like that. Anyway, policies are not just "red tape", but are in place because this is a collaborative encyclopedia and rules are necessary for everyone to get along. If you don't want to keep having conversations like this in the future, then please follow policy. Also, if you thought the page was blatant vandalism and you could have deleted it yourself, you should have done so. The next time you see vandalism, please do just delete it. Calathan (talk) 16:07, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
I think the first thing you need to do is to learn distinguish non-negotiable policy (such as WP:CITE, WP:NPOV), from guidelines of project-internal good practice (such as "the prod template should not be used on pages that are at that moment redirects"). There is a fundamental difference. The point of this exercise was to impress this difference on you. But I think we can drop this now, as anything that hasn't been learned from it so far isn't going to happen now as we devolve into acrimony. I think we have got as much WP:LAME out of this as has been in it, so peace. --dab (𒁳) 05:28, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
NK
Hi. Since you have a deep knowledge and interest in ancient history, would you please have a look at discussions we have at Nagorno-Karabakh? We need a third opinion from uninvolved editors, so your input would be appreciated. Thanks. Grandmaster 20:25, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
- Since Grandmaster decided to ask your opinion, I would like to do the same and ask you to take a look at Guba mass grave, where User:Grandmaster has been active supporting Azerbaijani editors. Guba mass grave is one of those articles on bogus topics where information comes entirely from hate sites and state-sponsored propaganda sources spewing hostile nonsense. Guba mass grave is an abuse of WP:NPOV of monstrous proportions, and yet someone like User:Grandmaster bends over backwards protecting this article while at the same time launching pseudo-intellectual talks on validity of ancient sources in Nagorno-Karabakh - a nauseating display of double standards. Please also note that the Guba mass grave article was started by User:Interfase, who in ruwiki came under sanctions for being Grandmaster's proven meatpuppet (information on meta-wiki and here [5]) and member of Grandmaster's 26 Baku Commissars distribution list. Winterbliss (talk) 02:29, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- See - that's what happens when you prance around in the middle of a minefield. Kaboom - banned for life!
I do have an interest in ancient history, but I have been dealing with puerile nationalists abusing ancient history to make themselves feel better about their ingroup since 2004, so I am just a little tired of the exercise. --dab (𒁳) 08:06, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- I understand. Thanks for commenting. It is very helpful. Grandmaster 10:34, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- That going to be your new motto: "Dealing with puerile nationalists since 2004"? I won't be asking your opinion because I know that your always smug and snide comments are not helpful, regardless of how much knowledge you can bring to a subject and regardless of how much some new pairs of informed eyes are needed. Meowy 14:10, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- They are helpful, if you read past the smugness. They are only unhelpful if your ego prevents you from that. Of course the smugness is also born from ego ultimately, I am not a saint. But I do believe that only people who behave like adults deserve to be treated like adults, so I do not have a problem with my dealing out "snide" comments to people who are wasting the time of complete strangers with their immaturity. If you don't like it, well, nobody asked you to review my work here either. But if you stay around long enough to watch me deal with people who can pull their own weight and stick to the topic, you will be forced to admit that I am always gracious to those regardless of their tone, and not above apologizing for my own mistakes.
- I am in no way an expert on Armenia or NK. But I am by now an expert at spotting ethnic bullshit on the wiki. All I ask of people is to put aside their ethnic grievances whenever they click the edit button. If they cannot do that, they are immature brats in my book, and I will deliberately treat them as such under WP:SPADE. If you want to enjoy being an Armenian with a grudge, just go to some forum where this will be appreciated. If you must discuss the history of Armenia here, just try to grow up and treat your references for what they are and don't pull editorializing stunts about how "some scholars" say this or that based on cherry-picking acrobatics, it's lame. --dab (𒁳) 05:31, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
- And I'm an expert in detecting administrator bullshit. In your case a little tantrum-filled kid of an administrator who has no idea of what the word "gracious" means. Maybe one day I'll have a go at creating that "Dbachmannisms" list - one thing is certain, I'll never lack material to add to it. And, sorry to disapoint your racist arrogance, but I am not Armenian. Meowy 02:46, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
- Would you be interested in commenting on the use of Johann Schiltberger as a source here: [6]? My foremost concern with this article is that primary sources are used very selectively, as is the case with this particular one. Grandmaster 08:41, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
Personal Information
"Which I hoped you were going to acquire over time, as you said you started to take university courses, but so far I cannot see it has done much with your misplaced hyperbole" [7]. Excuse me? I suggest you start explaining on what grounds you've produced this fantasy personal information about me before I take the next step with this. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:01, 19 April 2012 (UTC)