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::::::::::As far deleting the history goes, I do actually consider it a beneficial side-effect but not in itself a factor in the deletion. I considered stubbing the article but that raised a few additional problems: Suppose I stubbed it and, given the recent AfD and discussion, logged it at [[WP:BLPLOG]] - (a) that would have been extremely likely to make other editors highly reticent about editing it further (b) the issue of "admin involvement" is a muddy one; stubbification could be argued to be a content edit and I wished to avoid such grey areas (c) I didn't know enough about the article subject to wish to put my name to any revision, no matter how short and inoffensive. You'll notice that when I logged the deletion I was careful to say that it did not stop anyone from creating a balanced replacement. [[User:CIreland|CIreland]] ([[User talk:CIreland#top|talk]]) 21:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC) |
::::::::::As far deleting the history goes, I do actually consider it a beneficial side-effect but not in itself a factor in the deletion. I considered stubbing the article but that raised a few additional problems: Suppose I stubbed it and, given the recent AfD and discussion, logged it at [[WP:BLPLOG]] - (a) that would have been extremely likely to make other editors highly reticent about editing it further (b) the issue of "admin involvement" is a muddy one; stubbification could be argued to be a content edit and I wished to avoid such grey areas (c) I didn't know enough about the article subject to wish to put my name to any revision, no matter how short and inoffensive. You'll notice that when I logged the deletion I was careful to say that it did not stop anyone from creating a balanced replacement. [[User:CIreland|CIreland]] ([[User talk:CIreland#top|talk]]) 21:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Were [[User:Cenarium/sighted revisions|sighted revisions]] enabled, I would have stubbed it and restrict sighting :) I also am afraid sometimes to cut down an article like this and I understand your point, but I still think it's better than deletion, and this kind of admin intervention can only be beneficial. I don't think you would have needed BLPSE for that, it's not against the AFD result (nor a merge would be) and semi-protecting, or even fully-protecting, an article for blp violations doesn't require this, hopefully. It also creates problem with GFDL to recreate an article based on deleted content. And the old talk is lost. <strong><span style="font-family:Monotype;">[[User:Cenarium|<font color="#000080">Cenarium</font>]][[User_talk:Cenarium|<font color="#000090"> '''<sup>Talk</sup>'''</font>]]</span></strong> 22:04, 19 September 2008 (UTC) |
:::::::::::Were [[User:Cenarium/sighted revisions|sighted revisions]] enabled, I would have stubbed it and restrict sighting :) I also am afraid sometimes to cut down an article like this and I understand your point, but I still think it's better than deletion, and this kind of admin intervention can only be beneficial. I don't think you would have needed BLPSE for that, it's not against the AFD result (nor a merge would be) and semi-protecting, or even fully-protecting, an article for blp violations doesn't require this, hopefully. It also creates problem with GFDL to recreate an article based on deleted content. And the old talk is lost. <strong><span style="font-family:Monotype;">[[User:Cenarium|<font color="#000080">Cenarium</font>]][[User_talk:Cenarium|<font color="#000090"> '''<sup>Talk</sup>'''</font>]]</span></strong> 22:04, 19 September 2008 (UTC) |
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:::After thinking about it for a month, I find I still agree with Sherurcij. I would really appreciate CIreland spelling out the specific objections they had to specific passages, on the talk page. [[User:Geo Swan|Geo Swan]] ([[User talk:Geo Swan|talk]]) 17:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC) |
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== Could you please explain more fully... == |
== Could you please explain more fully... == |
Revision as of 17:02, 20 October 2008
This page has archives. Sections older than 28 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
don't delete my page about listing the Bemani pocket games on there own pages
don't
I was looking at it from the AFD point of view of "what did the community say", which I read at "no consensus", basically I wasn't even looking at content, just arguments. If you see BLP issues with content, by all means do whatever is necessary to ensure compliance. I will not object to any action you take and will support your judgment. MBisanz talk 08:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The wiser choice would be to restore the article, and carte-blanche delete the sections you believe violated BLP requirements and put a note on the talk-page forbidding their being re-inserted. Deleting an entire article because you believe it has errors is a bad precedent to set. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead) 18:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- That would have left a blank article so the distinction is moot. If you can create an article on this individual that is properly neutral then I encourage you to do so. CIreland (talk) 18:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The article could have just been, savagely, cut down, would you object to an article being created/restored with just the first two sentences of text from the last version (with references) and the first picture. This would remove the problems from the previous article, could be protected if necessary, while retaining an article as per the no consensus AFD. Davewild (talk) 20:15, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- @Davewild: as I said earlier, I have no problem at all with a balanced article on the subject and would encourage anyone with knowledge of this subject to create one. CIreland (talk) 20:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- So I am ok to do as I suggested? I just want to be sure my action would be ok as I do not want to be accused of wheel warring or violating the BLP special enforcement arbcom ruling. Thanks. Davewild (talk) 20:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- That would be fine by me. I deleted that version of the article and its history; a brand new balanced article would be a separate issue. CIreland (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have created such an article at Patrick M. McCarthy and will keep it on my watchlist. I think that if editors start re-entering the coatrack material then it can be protected for a necessary period. Davewild (talk) 21:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- That would be fine by me. I deleted that version of the article and its history; a brand new balanced article would be a separate issue. CIreland (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- So I am ok to do as I suggested? I just want to be sure my action would be ok as I do not want to be accused of wheel warring or violating the BLP special enforcement arbcom ruling. Thanks. Davewild (talk) 20:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The discussion was steady and constructive at BLPN, cutting the article down to a referenced stub (with protection if necessary) is usual action and would have let discussion on a merge/deletion going on. I don't see the emergency. Cenarium Talk 20:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree: The usual action is deal firmly and immediately with BLP violations. We should err on the side of caution - we can recreate articles with far greater ease than we can undo harm to individuals. Review can be requested at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement. CIreland (talk) 20:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that we need to deal firmly and immediately with BLP violations. I meant I don't see the emergency to delete and kill the discussion in the same time while we have better alternatives, as you can see by now. Cenarium Talk 21:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well I guess we have differing perspectives on this. I would say that there's no compelling reason to retain such a problematic article when a balanced version can be so quickly created - as Davewild just did - and as happened last time I summarily deleted a BLP. CIreland (talk) 21:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry for being so unclear. It's exactly what I meant by satisfying alternatives. Unless you think that deleting the history is important ? One simple edit would have achieved the same result. Cenarium Talk 21:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- As far deleting the history goes, I do actually consider it a beneficial side-effect but not in itself a factor in the deletion. I considered stubbing the article but that raised a few additional problems: Suppose I stubbed it and, given the recent AfD and discussion, logged it at WP:BLPLOG - (a) that would have been extremely likely to make other editors highly reticent about editing it further (b) the issue of "admin involvement" is a muddy one; stubbification could be argued to be a content edit and I wished to avoid such grey areas (c) I didn't know enough about the article subject to wish to put my name to any revision, no matter how short and inoffensive. You'll notice that when I logged the deletion I was careful to say that it did not stop anyone from creating a balanced replacement. CIreland (talk) 21:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Were sighted revisions enabled, I would have stubbed it and restrict sighting :) I also am afraid sometimes to cut down an article like this and I understand your point, but I still think it's better than deletion, and this kind of admin intervention can only be beneficial. I don't think you would have needed BLPSE for that, it's not against the AFD result (nor a merge would be) and semi-protecting, or even fully-protecting, an article for blp violations doesn't require this, hopefully. It also creates problem with GFDL to recreate an article based on deleted content. And the old talk is lost. Cenarium Talk 22:04, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- As far deleting the history goes, I do actually consider it a beneficial side-effect but not in itself a factor in the deletion. I considered stubbing the article but that raised a few additional problems: Suppose I stubbed it and, given the recent AfD and discussion, logged it at WP:BLPLOG - (a) that would have been extremely likely to make other editors highly reticent about editing it further (b) the issue of "admin involvement" is a muddy one; stubbification could be argued to be a content edit and I wished to avoid such grey areas (c) I didn't know enough about the article subject to wish to put my name to any revision, no matter how short and inoffensive. You'll notice that when I logged the deletion I was careful to say that it did not stop anyone from creating a balanced replacement. CIreland (talk) 21:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry for being so unclear. It's exactly what I meant by satisfying alternatives. Unless you think that deleting the history is important ? One simple edit would have achieved the same result. Cenarium Talk 21:32, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well I guess we have differing perspectives on this. I would say that there's no compelling reason to retain such a problematic article when a balanced version can be so quickly created - as Davewild just did - and as happened last time I summarily deleted a BLP. CIreland (talk) 21:16, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that we need to deal firmly and immediately with BLP violations. I meant I don't see the emergency to delete and kill the discussion in the same time while we have better alternatives, as you can see by now. Cenarium Talk 21:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree: The usual action is deal firmly and immediately with BLP violations. We should err on the side of caution - we can recreate articles with far greater ease than we can undo harm to individuals. Review can be requested at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement. CIreland (talk) 20:52, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- @Davewild: as I said earlier, I have no problem at all with a balanced article on the subject and would encourage anyone with knowledge of this subject to create one. CIreland (talk) 20:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The article could have just been, savagely, cut down, would you object to an article being created/restored with just the first two sentences of text from the last version (with references) and the first picture. This would remove the problems from the previous article, could be protected if necessary, while retaining an article as per the no consensus AFD. Davewild (talk) 20:15, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- After thinking about it for a month, I find I still agree with Sherurcij. I would really appreciate CIreland spelling out the specific objections they had to specific passages, on the talk page. Geo Swan (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- That would have left a blank article so the distinction is moot. If you can create an article on this individual that is properly neutral then I encourage you to do so. CIreland (talk) 18:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- The wiser choice would be to restore the article, and carte-blanche delete the sections you believe violated BLP requirements and put a note on the talk-page forbidding their being re-inserted. Deleting an entire article because you believe it has errors is a bad precedent to set. Sherurcij (speaker for the dead) 18:36, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Could you please explain more fully...
Could you please explain why you deleted the article on Patrick M. McCarthy? You can respond here. I will look for your explanation here. Geo Swan (talk) 19:58, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- I deleted it because it was not a biography of the subject, as it claimed to be. A biography should be a balanced summary of an individual's entire life and, when appropriate, work. This article was focussed almost entirely on one aspect and even, at the time of deletion, included a number of statements of dubious relevance to the subject. CIreland (talk) 20:47, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
- that's not a reason for deletion, it's a reason for editing. Furthermore, i don't even see the need of that. I asked at the afd, and others ask just above, what exactly did you think violated BLP? His role in Guantanamo is the most historically important thing in his career, quite probably the only significant thing in his career, will be what is permanently remembered, and deserves emphasis. BLP says, in fact, that we do not emphasise parts of the career that are not related to notability, not the other way round. The proper balance here is to discuss what he's notable for, with only the most basic personal background. BLPSE does not give you the right to delete an article after consensus for deletion has been not found by a fellow admin at the community discussion at AfD. Looking at the deleted article, I would indeed have written it in a different style, without the boxed quotes, just a plain running text-- WP should look like an encyclopedia. Butthat too is not a reason for deletion. DGG (talk) 02:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I would make three points:
- I was far from being the only person to think there were serious BLP issues with the article.
- On the question of deleting vs reducing to a stub, Cenarium and I discussed the pros and cons of this above; neither is an ideal solution but either is preferable to leaving the article as it was.
- Take a look at the last deleted revision. What fraction of the article main text is intended to cast the subject in a poor light? That alone is, I would contend, sufficient grounds for deletion but there are others (issues of relevance and guilt by association, for example).
- CIreland (talk) 02:57, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I would make three points:
- that's not a reason for deletion, it's a reason for editing. Furthermore, i don't even see the need of that. I asked at the afd, and others ask just above, what exactly did you think violated BLP? His role in Guantanamo is the most historically important thing in his career, quite probably the only significant thing in his career, will be what is permanently remembered, and deserves emphasis. BLP says, in fact, that we do not emphasise parts of the career that are not related to notability, not the other way round. The proper balance here is to discuss what he's notable for, with only the most basic personal background. BLPSE does not give you the right to delete an article after consensus for deletion has been not found by a fellow admin at the community discussion at AfD. Looking at the deleted article, I would indeed have written it in a different style, without the boxed quotes, just a plain running text-- WP should look like an encyclopedia. Butthat too is not a reason for deletion. DGG (talk) 02:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Block of Alex_101
Hi. Please see User_talk:Alex_101#Want_to_be_an_admin.3F and the subsection that follows it. The user has approached me following my offer to nominate people at WT:RFA. His 2006 block log is troublesome, but could be overcome if his record had been unblemished since. However, such a recent block as the one you gave him in June is just too much of a hurdle... unless you (as the blocking admin) had anything positive to say about it. Do you? Cheers --Dweller (talk) 09:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I don't know anything about the user question. I do remember the edit warring he was blocked for though. I'm afraid there isn't any mitigation to be found there though (quite the reverse, it was all pretty juvenile). See the history of Bad Religion on and around 6 June 2008 if you're interested. Describing good faith edits as vandalism would be bound to be brought up at RfA, I fear. CIreland (talk) 17:42, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Regarding my account/talk page
You have recently posted a message on my page about me redirecting my talk page. I did not realize this was happening, nor did I intend for this to happen. How can I make this stop happening? Lucas Brown (talk) 00:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- I have replied at User talk:Lucas Brown 42. CIreland (talk) 00:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
- I have replied at User talk:Lucas Brown 42. Lucas Brown (talk) 18:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
thanks
Thanks for the quick work on that db-self request.Cat-five - talk 01:59, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- And thanks also for the semi-protect on Gary Trauner. BeIsKr (talk) 07:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry if I was annoyed at her, but a prod was removed, although it had expired and the article should have been deleted as the prod had been up for five days. The edit summary said it was removed because she objected to the deletion at the BLP noticeboard [1](?). How is that not 'forum shopping'? `If she hadn't asked, the article would have been deleted like others whose prods have expired. Is the BLP board the place for people to get prods on their article removed when no-one would otherwise have done it? I like to think not. Oh well, there's an AfD now.Sticky Parkin 16:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank You!
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The RickK Anti-Vandalism Barnstar | |
For your assistance in keeping USS New Jersey (BB-62) vandal free while the article was up on the mainpage I herby award you The RickK Anti-Vandalism Barnstar. Keep up the good work! TomStar81 (Talk) 00:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC) |
- Also, Thanks for changing the page protection, even if it was frowned on by the community. I apreciated it. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:35, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Cumulus Clouds
Mr. Clouds has issued warnings, threats, claims of vandalism repeatedly on my Talk page, without basis. I have repeatedly asked for 3O on pages -- when one was proffered by Jclemens, CC refused to abide by it. He repeatedly marks his reverts as "minor" and repeatedly adds totally unsourced material to pages. For fun, look at his definition of "recent" in the Dino Rossi page. Every edit I make is sourced, referenced in Ralk where applicable, and so on. I have over 26 years experience online now, and find CC to be in a remarkable 1% whom I would have locked out of CompuServe. Thank you for tending to the nuisance 3RR compalint, which he was gentlemanly enough not to post to my page (although he posted after each single edit in the past). Collect (talk) 11:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for your merging the edit history of Talk:Joseph Wurzelbacher to Talk:Joe Wurzelbacher. But the previous discussions (like this version) disappear in the new page. Would it be possible to restore the former discussions or do we need to move them to archive? Thanks. --Neo-Jay (talk) 12:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well, they are in the page history. If you wish to restore them to the current page, you would have to do so by hand. Alternatively, you could, as you suggest, find the "move revision" i.e. [2] and copy/paste the content to an archive page. CIreland (talk) 12:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I moved the previous discussions at Talk:Joseph Wurzelbacher to Talk:Joe Wurzelbacher/Archive 1. --Neo-Jay (talk) 13:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks
Thanks for the information, I really appreciate it. I am archiving the comments on my page. Inclusionist (talk) 07:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well, perhaps. It was just a bit of wiki-history which I would interpret somewhat differently. I may not have been around at the time, but you would likely nowadays consider me one of the "jackasses"; I don't mind, by the way. CIreland (talk) 07:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much for page protection. Could you also block the IP 122.169.11.242 who vandalized. I am sure that IP will vandalize more pages. Thanks, KensplanetTalkContributions 09:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- Already done, but he has a dynamic IP so probably pointless if he is determined to disrupt other pages. CIreland (talk) 09:47, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- I am a bit concerned then. Yesterday (17 October), the same person with IP 122.169.14.44 vandalized the same page
(http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mangalorean_Catholics&diff=245904894&oldid=245733758) (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mangalorean_Catholics&diff=245910185&oldid=245905014)
Let's see what he does next? KensplanetTalkContributions 09:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
thanks
Thank you for noting the possible strange edit pattern in Thomas Muthee. I think I had persuaded Taut to stay in Talk to find acceptable sources, but then two new people appeared to do reverts ... strange. Thanks! Collect (talk) 04:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)