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:I can't really advise what images you should remove, as I don't know which are the most important, but the one that might cause the most problems is the left side insertion in the lead. Hope this helps. [[User:Brianboulton|Brianboulton]] ([[User talk:Brianboulton#top|talk]]) 16:35, 31 August 2016 (UTC) |
:I can't really advise what images you should remove, as I don't know which are the most important, but the one that might cause the most problems is the left side insertion in the lead. Hope this helps. [[User:Brianboulton|Brianboulton]] ([[User talk:Brianboulton#top|talk]]) 16:35, 31 August 2016 (UTC) |
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== RfC about quotation boxes. == |
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Hello Brian. This is just a message to let you know that I have recently initiated a 'support/opposition' section at the RfC discussing the issues surrounding the use of "quote boxes" ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Permit_.7B.7BQuote_box.7D.7D_for_regular_quotes here]). As you previously expressed a view on this issue over at the MoS talk page several days ago, you may wish to reiterate your opinion in a 'support/oppose' format. Best, [[User:Midnightblueowl|Midnightblueowl]] ([[User talk:Midnightblueowl|talk]]) 21:58, 31 August 2016 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:58, 31 August 2016
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List 2: FAs with no scheduled or projected TFA date
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Pirates
Reminder to me: check opera discographies - regularly.
Watch it! (prose and referencing)
Update performance statistics each September.
Watching
- Valley View (Romney, West Virginia) and FAC (no edits to article since 19 July, and FAC looking increasingly moribund)
- Gospel of John and peer review
- Nelson Mandela and Wikipedia:Peer review/Nelson Mandela/archive3 (awaiting responses esp. re dangling participles)
- Vincent Van Gogh and FAC (resume review about 2 or 3 August if stable by then)
- Lieutenant Kijé (Prokofiev) (waiting for Tim)
Well done!
The Original Barnstar | ||
For your excellent work on the Thorpe affair - just come across it on the Main Page. Great work, and a fascinating read. Midnightblueowl (talk) 08:14, 3 August 2016 (UTC) |
- 3 August: thank you for today's Thorpe affair, "a fairly unbelievable but entirely true story of British political life ..." (what is it with British political life?) - Thank you also for your measured words in the Holst affair, an article written by more than 700 users! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:49, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks to you both – glad you liked the article. Brianboulton (talk) 12:44, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
Another thought about mentoring
Rereading Wehwalt's most recent comment at WT:FAC and my response there, it struck me that one way to look at the mentoring proposal is that a first time nominator has to get someone with 5+ FAs to agree they'll support it before they can nominate. I didn't want to clutter that thread with this comment, since it's a bit of a digression, but what do you think? Is that a simpler way to frame it? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:40, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- (TPS) I think there's a fair distance between someone saying "This looks ready to nominate for FAC" and "I'd support this at FAC". The latter requires quite a bit more work on the part of the mentor. Perhaps that's what you intended all along, but I think we'd need to be clear about that. --Laser brain (talk) 11:52, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think there should be rather more to mentoring than an agreement to support at FAC – supports are often given (by experienced editors, too) without particular care and attention. I see mentoring as an active role within several possible stages, not all applicable in every case: article preparation, help through earlier review processes, final polishing, above all ensuring compliance with the FA criteria. And perhaps helping the newcomer in responding to the criticisms that will arise at FAC. Very few article come to FAC in perfect condition; most need further work, and benefit from the experienced eyes at FAC. I'll watch the discussion at FAC talk, and respond accordingly. Brianboulton (talk) 17:04, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- Mentoring is a good thing. We have, I feel, an obligation to encourage those who will bear the torch in future. The devil is in the details, as usual. If Mike's suggestion above was modified to getting the opinion of a 5+er that he expects that it will pass FAC after the usual process, that might be a good thing. As opposed to a view that it meets the criteria as it stands. In other words, pretty much what LB said.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:07, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
- I think there should be rather more to mentoring than an agreement to support at FAC – supports are often given (by experienced editors, too) without particular care and attention. I see mentoring as an active role within several possible stages, not all applicable in every case: article preparation, help through earlier review processes, final polishing, above all ensuring compliance with the FA criteria. And perhaps helping the newcomer in responding to the criticisms that will arise at FAC. Very few article come to FAC in perfect condition; most need further work, and benefit from the experienced eyes at FAC. I'll watch the discussion at FAC talk, and respond accordingly. Brianboulton (talk) 17:04, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
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Featured article
Greetings! Not that you should care, but I'd love to see Lord Charles Beresford becoming a featured article!!! Thanks! 79.129.199.178 (talk) 13:16, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestion. Victorian naval officers turned Tory MP are not really my area of expertise. The article needs lots of work to get near FA standard, and I'm not the person to do it. You could make a request at WP:WikiProject Military history where you might find an editor willing to take it on. Brianboulton (talk) 14:49, 5 August 2016 (UTC)
Kailash29792 has aimed to make it an FA. Feel free to leave comments and do let me or him know if you intend to do so by pinging either of us. Thanks. — Ssven2 Speak 2 me 00:25, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- I regret that due to prior commitments and limited wiki time at present, I will not be able to participate in this review, but I wish your endeavours well. Brianboulton (talk) 15:01, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
VvG
Brian, this has stabilised and I think ready again for your highly valued input. I don't in the slightest take that you might revisit for granted, but you are a prize reviewer, and am considering asking Ian for a restart, which might be fairest to all; I that you were initially looking at a moving target and appreciate how that might have compromised time consuming review work. Ceoil (talk) 02:53, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Hi, Ceoil, of course I intend to revist the review, having only temporarily suspended my activity for the reasons I gave. All in all a restart might be the best thing in view of the extent to which the article has changed since its nomination, but that's for you and your conoms to decide. I'll be posting comments again within the next couple of days – congratulations to you and your colleagues for the terrific work you've put into this article; the images alone are a real delight. Brianboulton (talk) 14:08, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
- Events have overtaken my notion of a restart, i think given all the feedback and action during this week, and how its been structured, its moot now. The review has become focused again, easier now for the FAC prom/arc team to weigh in their final decision. From a reviewer POV, I hope easier for you also. Ceoil (talk) 10:22, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
Time for a summer PR?
What ho! I've recently been working on a biography of a fascinating and important figure, Josephine Butler. The lady is now at PR for comment and consideration, and if you have the time and inclination I'd be grateful for any comments you may have. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 14:11, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
- I will be pleased to review this; as everybody knows, the welfare of prositutes has always been one of my chief interests in life. I understand from Tim's page that you are going on holiday shortly, and I hope you have a marvellous time. When you get back, I'd like to ask your assistance in a newspaper search project (similar to the help you gave me on Girl Pat a couple of years back). Details when you're ready. Brianboulton (talk) 22:21, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm off in about ten days time, so feel free to email me your requirements and I'll start running the searches. On a separate note, I'm sorry to see more IB silliness breaking out on Handel's lost operas article: the spike in various IB threads going on all all over the place (with the same small group of highly active warriors pushing their agenda) seems to indicate some increased militancy, which is becoming increasingly disruptive and divisive. Are these people actively trying to drive away editors, or are they so wound up in their agenda that they can't see the damage they do? It's all a bit of a shame that the school bully mentality detracts so much pleasure from the process. – SchroCat (talk) 22:48, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
- The lost operas article is due to be TFA on 23 August... Hopefully it will not become a battleground before or during. I'll email you with details of my newspaper search requirements, and am most grateful for your help with this. Brianboulton (talk) 23:06, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
- I've got your email, and I'll do the research in the morning. The date worries me a little – the BL newspaper archive I use isn't great post Second World War, but if that's not great, there are a few other bits I can do to dig stuff out. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 20:52, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
- Done. Very thin on the ground, and non-existent on the British Library searches, but what I have found (from more modern references) has been emailed across to you. – SchroCat (talk) 14:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
- The lost operas article is due to be TFA on 23 August... Hopefully it will not become a battleground before or during. I'll email you with details of my newspaper search requirements, and am most grateful for your help with this. Brianboulton (talk) 23:06, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm off in about ten days time, so feel free to email me your requirements and I'll start running the searches. On a separate note, I'm sorry to see more IB silliness breaking out on Handel's lost operas article: the spike in various IB threads going on all all over the place (with the same small group of highly active warriors pushing their agenda) seems to indicate some increased militancy, which is becoming increasingly disruptive and divisive. Are these people actively trying to drive away editors, or are they so wound up in their agenda that they can't see the damage they do? It's all a bit of a shame that the school bully mentality detracts so much pleasure from the process. – SchroCat (talk) 22:48, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
This Month in GLAM: July 2016
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Baton
Hi Brian. Just to let you know, I finished up scheduling August. We're all caught up with the other pages too. I'm passing the baton on to you now. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 11:29, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
- Duly acknowledged, with thanks for your work – also to Dan and David for their untiring efforts (and they don't get alternate months off!) Brianboulton (talk) 13:16, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Leo Frank FAC
Hi Brian, you had helped me a while back with my peer review of Leo Frank. I have since got it up to GA and just nominated it for FA. If you could spare a couple moments, feel free to review the article and leave comments. Note that this is my first FAC, so hopefully I don't become the poster child for why this is necessary. Tonystewart14 (talk) 09:31, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
- Hi, Tony. I do remember the article, and the considerable amount of work you gave to it. I will certainly look at the FAC and comment there, though this won't be before next week as I have a particularly busy weekend ahead. As to your reference to a discussion taking place elsewhere, the focus there is on unprepared nominations, and I don't think you can be accused of that. On the contrary, you have prepared meticulously. Brianboulton (talk) 10:13, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the kind words, and take your time. It's satisfying to finally by at FAC after all the work! Tonystewart14 (talk) 10:26, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
Would you have time to look at this FAC? He and your Lansbury would have got on well. Too well, on one regrettable point, as they each shared a conviction Hitler could be reasoned with ... Many thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:58, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
- I will definitely look and comment (sorry I missed the PR). I have first to fulfil a promise to review Leo Frank, which might take a day or two as it's a long article. Could you meantime look in at Lieutenant Kijé (Prokofiev), and perhaps leave a talkpage comment or two? Tim has taken a look and made a number of suggestions which I've adopted. I'm probably not going to ask for a formal PR in this case. Brianboulton (talk) 14:36, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
- as soon as I finish my obligation to Secretariat (horse) I shall.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:21, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
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Hello, I can understand you might be busy expanding or reviewing other articles, but if you've got time and interest, please consider leaving comments for PR of Ms Swift regarding its prose which I don't feel is under a very good condition. FrB.TG (talk) 21:25, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
I understand you might be busy. If you have the time, you can sign up for Doc's contest about topics and articles covering Classical Hollywood cinema. Do express if you are interested or not by signing up under the "Editors Interested" section. Thanks. — Ssven2 Speak 2 me 09:09, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm sure Brian isn't at all interested!♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:09, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
- I don't really have the knowledge to contribute effectively, but I wish the project well. Brianboulton (talk) 10:29, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, Brian. Dr. Blofeld "I'm sure Brian isn't at all interested!" — Sad, isn't it?. — Ssven2 Speak 2 me 10:33, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
Boxed in
Apropos the current discussion at Talk:MOS, you might want to take a look at how boxed quotes are used in Phineas Gage and Sacred Cod. EEng 14:57, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not worried by the "bossy" version! Yes, I agree with you that these are egregious example of the misuse of quote boxes, but my point has always been that, when carefully used, such boxes can ands do enhance an article. That remains my position. Brianboulton (talk) 18:52, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Uh oh. I thought they were really good examples. I put them there. I'm so crushed. <sniff> Can you elaborate? EEng 20:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry mate, I didn't mean to be cruel. Can I return to this a bit later, as I'm embroiled elsewhere for the time being. Brianboulton (talk) 20:58, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- No problem, I'm made of sterner stuff than that (he said sulkily). When you have time I really would value your thoughts, though please take the time to actually read the article to see how the quotes and captions support and illustrate the text proper. In the meantime, take care not to get too embroiled (see the DYK), and have you visited the Museums? EEng 21:32, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry mate, I didn't mean to be cruel. Can I return to this a bit later, as I'm embroiled elsewhere for the time being. Brianboulton (talk) 20:58, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
- Uh oh. I thought they were really good examples. I put them there. I'm so crushed. <sniff> Can you elaborate? EEng 20:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
EEng Right, with a bit more time on my hands I can see that my initial judgement was a little hurried and harsh, based as it was on about thirty seconds' inspection while my mind was on something else. So here is a more considered opinion:
- Phineas Gage: The use of quote boxes in this article is not its chief problem. The individual boxes are OK, but I think that six, in an article so liberally festooned with images, is too many. I'd say the article was greatly overimaged, leading to constant squeezing of text between left and right-side placements (a MoS violation). I've never seen a left-located supplementary image in a lead before. Overall 27 images, 6 quote boxes and a host of indented quotes overdominate the text which is supposedly the meat of the article. My position is that quote boxes should be used sparingly, and are most effective when there is a shortage of available images.
- Sacred Cod. Unfortunately, here I think my initial snap judgement was right. This use of quote boxes, spread across the page and combining them with images, doesn't work at all. The box in the History section represents about 80 percent of the text in that section, which is absurd; the text is supposed to provide the narrative, with the quote illustrating or underlining a significant part of it. Perhaps you are experimenting with formats to see what might be done? If so, I'd drop this one.
Anyway, that was an interesting detour from my usual activities here, and I'm glad you called. Brianboulton (talk) 13:00, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- I find boxed quotes invaluable on visual arts articles, when an artwork is intended to illustrate a particular passage from literature or mythology and one wants to provide the original text from which the artist would have worked to give a context; it means one can explain the scenario in modern language but still provide the exact original wording, instead of (a) using only the original text and thus dropping a chunk of The Faerie Queene or the King James Version into the body text, which some readers (particularly non-native speakers) may find confusing, or (b) including both the original text and a modern 'translation' in the body text, which is repetitive and annoying to readers. The Dawn of Love is quite a good example of this usage. They're also handy as "proxy illustrations" for articles or sections without an appropriate image, to break up an otherwise lengthy block of body text without disrupting the narrative flow of the main text—see the "Funeral" section of Opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, for example. (Quotes about the topic can have a secondary purpose on articles on topics which appear obscure to modern eyes, as they demonstrate that this apparent-non-notable topic was considered worthy of notice at the time—there's a good deal of this going on at Daniel Lambert, if you want a concrete example.) ‑ Iridescent 15:35, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- My rough calculation, based on recent promotions, is that between a fifth and a quarter of FAs use quote boxes in the way you describe. I rather think the community will have no truck with fundamentalist attempts to prevent their use, but editors may find their articles challenged nonetheless. This may be the shape of things to come. Brianboulton (talk) 18:41, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Time to start something new
I just mentioned your lovely lost operas as an example of how we might achieve a little more peace in IB editing, - repetitions of the always same arguments are not it, as you said, I agree. I would not have mentioned the operas yesterday, for fear to be labeled "edit-warrior" once more for even mentioning it. (I have not edit warred once in my career here, and would not add an IB to a biography by authors who don't like it. Pointing out where a longstanding one was reverted is a different story, because I think that is also a matter of respect for the work of others.) Singing concerts with Reger's Der 100. Psalm in Bruges and Wiesbaden coming up, - much more rewarding. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:09, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- The great barrier to resolution is the policy that requires page-by-page resolution in any conflict over the presence or absence of an infobox. This encourages division among editors, the creation of false consensuses, and an eternal battleground mentality. The Holst article is a good example of the consequences of this disastrous policy - acres of hositility, nothing achieved. I accept that you do not add infoboxes to articles whose main editors "don't like it", although opening a discussion on the talkpage can have much the same effect. I have said before (most recently in the Holst discussion) that I don't agree with removing infoboxes where they have been established, and I think that both sides of the debate have been guilty at times of unnecessarily stoking antagonism by word and deed. But the real villain of the piece is WP policy, which simply has to change if we are to make progress. Enjoy your concerts, as I enjoy the weekly recitals at Peterborough cathedral, although as a listener not a performer. And thank you for signing up for the mentoring policy which I hope will get off the ground soon. Brianboulton (talk) 11:46, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that the individual article resolution is a concept that is not working, I therefore tried on WP:COMPOSERS to find support for a minimal IB - replacing the former Persondata - following your model of Percy Grainger, and also Beethoven where it was installed as the result of community consensus. I really liked that its presence there attracted thousands of clicks to his list of compositions on 17 December, mentioned in the IB but not the lead. I enjoy the sweet irony that my design from the workshop of the infoboxes arb case was thus installed by one of the arbs who wrote the case, - showing clearly how kafkaesque that case was. I also agree that both sides could improve showing respect. Btw, I also don't normally add suggestions to have an IB on articles where I know ..., such as Holst. In that particular case, I only showed - once the discussion was started - how an IB could look like, because some participants in a broader discussion might not know (how simple it could be). I should not have done that, but can't withdraw now. It will not happen again. - Music! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:19, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
ANI notice
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic WP:ANI#Active RFC archived before end (or even closure) at Talk:Gustav Holst. Thank you. --Izno (talk) 13:00, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
Thorpe affair
Unfortunately it appears that the self-appointed Guardians of the Galaxy (a less-than-charming group that back each other up) have miraculously and coincidentally all "found" the article within a matters of hours of each other. I have (unfortunately) had dealings with the tag team before, and they are inflexible, lack all common sense, courtesy, perspective and the ability to compromise. Even on something as obvious as the poor comma use they are trying to force a sub-standard version onto the page based on nothing more than their own opinion. I'm sorry to see that even when we have quality work to display, it remains unprotected from such group bullying to force sub-standard dross onto somewhere that isn't needed. 5.2 million articles and this is what they decide needs their "improvements"? – SchroCat (talk) 06:39, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
- I am aware of this. Busy most of today, but will comment on the talkpage when I can. Brianboulton (talk) 12:58, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Writer's Barnstar | |
Contrary to what the "Guardians of the Galaxy" think, wikipedia is incredibly fortunate to have somebody as able as you writing here. It is sad to see how some of our best editors are treated and the bullying and harassment that goes on on here. You deserve much better than this. These people are generally clueless on how to write an encyclopedia. You're setting the best possible example for others to follow. Unfortunately these people are not easy to ignore, but I hope you'll continue to hold your head high as all you've seemed to have had in the last month is negativity and all I see is positivity from your contributions here. I don't know how you put up with it, but you're easily worth 500 of these snivelling idiots. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:14, 28 August 2016 (UTC) |
User page instead of talk page
Hey, you accidentally posted on my user page instead of my talk page. You might want to check if you've done that elsewhere. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 22:52, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry about that. Yours was the only one to go astray – I've just checked my contributions. Thanks for letting me know. Brianboulton (talk) 22:58, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Hi there. I've started a new initiative, the Wikipedia:The 10,000 Challenge. It's a long term goal to bring about 10,000 article improvements to the UK and Ireland. Through two contests involving just six or seven weeks of editing so far we've produced over 1500 improvements. Long term if we have more people chipping it and adding articles they've edited independently as well from all areas of the UK then reaching that target is all possible. I think it would be an amazing achievement to see 10,000 article improvements by editors chipping in. If you support this and think you might want to contribute towards this long term please sign up in the Contributors section. No obligations, just post work on anything you feel like whenever you want, though try to avoid basic stubs if possible as we're trying to reduce the overall stub count and improve general comprehension and quality. Thanks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:41, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
FAC voluntary mentoring scheme
Thanks for the note re the FAC voluntary mentoring scheme - I'm not sure I can help. Most of my FAs are from ages ago & I've only gone near it once in the last few years.— Rod talk 16:09, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
- Fine - thanks for letting me know Brianboulton (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, I've been meaning to get back to this for a while. Which images would you remove from Phineas Gage, and why? EEng 02:50, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
- I've opened a new thread, as your question specifically relates to the Gage article rather than the general Qbox question.
- What you decide to do should depend on where you want to take this article. If you are not intending to put it through formal review procedures you can probably leave it as it is, since the Style Inquisition rarely notices articles that aren't either GA, FA or TFA. But if you are thinking of GAN or FAC you will need to comply with Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images, including:
- Too many images can be distracting
- Avoid sandwiching text between images
- Placement must be relevant to adjoining text
- Generally, don't vary sizing (there are exceptions to this)
- Establish copyright status of every image
- I can't really advise what images you should remove, as I don't know which are the most important, but the one that might cause the most problems is the left side insertion in the lead. Hope this helps. Brianboulton (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
RfC about quotation boxes.
Hello Brian. This is just a message to let you know that I have recently initiated a 'support/opposition' section at the RfC discussing the issues surrounding the use of "quote boxes" (here). As you previously expressed a view on this issue over at the MoS talk page several days ago, you may wish to reiterate your opinion in a 'support/oppose' format. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 21:58, 31 August 2016 (UTC)