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Again - this is just your opinion. Just because you disagree, you dismiss Dr. Moore's statements as nonsense. You should not keep reverting edits that are cited, and are from an informed source, just because you do not agree with them. The fact remains that Dr. Moore's criticism is valid, or at the very least informed and cited, and should not be reverted just because you disagree with his statements. As for trying to get a consensus - I can't imaging that would ever happen with an issue this divisive. but this has nothing to do with consensus - this is about including an opposing viewpoint to achieve a neutral point of view. I understand that you wear your edit reversions as some sort of badge of honor, but editing is not about winning. I implore you to be fair and objective. - JohnTopShelf <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JohnTopShelf|JohnTopShelf]] ([[User talk:JohnTopShelf#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JohnTopShelf|contribs]]) 18:13, March 12, 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign --> |
Again - this is just your opinion. Just because you disagree, you dismiss Dr. Moore's statements as nonsense. You should not keep reverting edits that are cited, and are from an informed source, just because you do not agree with them. The fact remains that Dr. Moore's criticism is valid, or at the very least informed and cited, and should not be reverted just because you disagree with his statements. As for trying to get a consensus - I can't imaging that would ever happen with an issue this divisive. but this has nothing to do with consensus - this is about including an opposing viewpoint to achieve a neutral point of view. I understand that you wear your edit reversions as some sort of badge of honor, but editing is not about winning. I implore you to be fair and objective. - JohnTopShelf <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:JohnTopShelf|JohnTopShelf]] ([[User talk:JohnTopShelf#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JohnTopShelf|contribs]]) 18:13, March 12, 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Xsign --> |
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:So you know you're never going to get consensus for this, yet you want me to reinsert it? <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User_talk:Bradv|Brad''v'']]</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bradv|<span style="color:red">🍁</span>]] 18:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC) |
:So you know you're never going to get consensus for this, yet you want me to reinsert it? <span style="font-weight:bold;color:darkblue">[[User_talk:Bradv|Brad''v'']]</span>[[Special:Contributions/Bradv|<span style="color:red">🍁</span>]] 18:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC) |
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I meant there will never be consensus on whether Moore is correct or not, or whether Ocasio-Cortez is correct or not. But consensus on who is correct doesn't matter. What matters is presenting a differing point of view, by a respected environmentalist whose comments to a reputable news source were cited. That is what a neutral point of view for an article is all about. And yes - I want you to re-insert it. |
Revision as of 20:23, 12 March 2019
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Clickable links for NPP flowchart?
Hi there, I just wanted to let you know that I created an svg file to try to add clickable links to the NPP flowchart. The original PNG has just had minor updates, but I also created an svg file at File:NPP flowchart.svg. When you navigate fully to the raw svg file in a new tab (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f4/NPP_flowchart.svg) the links are clickable, but I'm not sure if there is a way of getting it to be clickable on-wiki. If there is, it would be great to have it work with clickable links from the sidebar of your superlinks script. — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here)(click me!) 06:08, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Insertcleverphrasehere, this is really cool. I will look at integrating it into Superlinks. Right now I'm just loading the png, but I'll see if I can load the svg instead and get the links to work. Cheers. Bradv🍁 15:14, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
Deletion
Sir, no offense or anything, but I would like your feeling regarding this. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 10:33, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- @ImmortalWizard: I'm not offended by your question. You can read my take on that event at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2018-10-28/Opinion. It was also covered in several other articles in that issue of the Signpost, and there are some conversations in my talk page archives. Hope that helps. Bradv🍁 15:16, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Don't worry, we all make mistakes. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 18:57, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, so you're just trolling me. I thought you were genuinely interested in this topic. Bradv🍁 18:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- No no, I wasn't trolling, I was genuinely interested. Hows this a troll? THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 19:01, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, so you're just trolling me. I thought you were genuinely interested in this topic. Bradv🍁 18:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Don't worry, we all make mistakes. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 18:57, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Scripts++ Newsletter – Issue 3
BLPN
I have mentioned you on the BLP noticeboard. Tornado chaser (talk) 18:53, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#Jenny McCarthy Bradv🍁 19:07, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Please comment on Talk:Jussie Smollett
The feedback request service is asking for participation in this request for comment on Talk:Jussie Smollett. Legobot (talk) 04:24, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Moving discussion...?
Hey Bradv!
So, I was thinking that maybe we should take the discussion off WP:AN/I and instead do a more all encompassing RfC. Here is a link to the draft so far: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour/RfC.
Would this be possible in your view? Should I bother? I just think that this probably should just be one centralized discussion.
Many thanks! ―MattLongCT -Talk-☖ 18:54, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- MattLongCT, I wouldn't. You'll just end up with having the discussion in yet another place. There still needs to be a deletion discussion, and there still needs to be a block/unblock discussion. Those are happening at the appropriate venues. Bradv🍁 18:56, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, if you could please delete Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Gender RfC and Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour/RfC for me, I'd appreciate it. I've moved it to my sandbox where I am about to blank it. Thank you! ―MattLongCT -Talk-☖ 19:01, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Wait, nvm. You are not an admin. My apologies. ―MattLongCT -Talk-☖ 19:02, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, if you could please delete Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Gender RfC and Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-02-28/Humour/RfC for me, I'd appreciate it. I've moved it to my sandbox where I am about to blank it. Thank you! ―MattLongCT -Talk-☖ 19:01, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Administrators' newsletter – March 2019
News and updates for administrators from the past month (February 2019).
Interface administrator changes
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|
- The RfC on administrator activity requirements failed to reach consensus for any proposal.
- Following discussions at the Bureaucrats' noticeboard and Wikipedia talk:Administrators, an earlier change to the restoration of adminship policy was reverted. If requested, bureaucrats will not restore administrator permissions removed due to inactivity if there have been five years without a logged administrator action; this "five year rule" does not apply to permissions removed voluntarily.
- A new tool is available to help determine if a given IP is an open proxy/VPN/webhost/compromised host.
- The Arbitration Committee announced two new OTRS queues. Both are meant solely for cases involving private information; other cases will continue to be handled at the appropriate venues (e.g., WP:COIN or WP:SPI).
- paid-en-wpwikipedia.org has been set up to receive private evidence related to abusive paid editing.
- checkuser-en-wpwikipedia.org has been set up to receive private requests for CheckUser. For instance, requests for IP block exemption for anonymous proxy editing should now be sent to this address instead of the functionaries-en list.
- The Arbitration Committee announced two new OTRS queues. Both are meant solely for cases involving private information; other cases will continue to be handled at the appropriate venues (e.g., WP:COIN or WP:SPI).
- Following the 2019 Steward Elections, the following editors have been appointed as stewards: Base, Einsbor, Jon Kolbert, Schniggendiller, and Wim b.
Empty categories
Hello, Bradv,
Empty categories that appear on Wikipedia:Database reports/Empty categories are tagged as empty. The empty categories THEN sit for 7 days in Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion after being tagged. After 7 day of being tagged and sitting in this category, if the category is still empty, the category is deleted. But we don't wait 7 days after a category has appeared in the Database Report before tagging it.
If you have questions about this, please read the instructions at Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion that will explain this process. Liz Read! Talk! 05:47, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Liz: I believe the categories are required by this template. The template was recently changed, so I assumed the categories were only empty since that update (which has since been reverted). I'll have to look into this further. Bradv🍁 05:56, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- To be clear, I requested this edit as the CSD template said don't remove them yourself. But those categories are supposed to be filled. I have no clue why they have been empty except my thought was the template Brad linked. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 06:07, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- And the categories have repopulated, so everything is back to status quo. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 06:13, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Licona
I see you got busy--thanks. I reworked that section significantly, shuffling around some content and trying to remake it into a standard sort of biography, but I know it was kind of a half-assed job, so I appreciate your help. Drmies (talk) 03:48, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- Drmies, I think there's still more to do, but it's marginally better than it was. Cheers. Bradv🍁 15:46, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
I've never left a message on a talk page so bear with me if I do this incorrectly:) I've been watching the back and forth on Licona's page with interest and concern. I messaged BradV about this privately because I didn't want to embarrass anyone. In terms of Licona being fired. That is flat out slander perpetrated by Norman Geisler. Unfortunately, as is the case with slander it makes it's way around the internet. However, Christianity Today is a news source and the article clearly states Licona resigned his position with NAMB. He states his position at NAMB was eliminated. This is proven by the fact that NAMB no longer has an apologetics department at all. The entire department was eliminated because NAMB was downsizing at the time. William Lane Craig, who would have been in a position to know the facts, also clearly states Licona was not fired [ https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/question-answer/are-institutional-doctrinal-statements-counter-productive]. Regarding Licona's status as an historian, one may want to look at Wikipedia's own Historian entry [1]. Licona certainly passes the test by Wikipedia's own standard. Simply looking at the title of his book The Resurrection of Jesus: A New Historiographical Approach and the Table of Contents [2] would prove he is an historian. In addition to the course he teaches in Philosophy of History [3] He also received endorsements by historians [4]. I could go on but I think I made my point. He has also had journal articles published in the academic Journal of the Historical Jesus. ]. You may also want to add back in Licona's membership in the very prestigious Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas [5]. Here is a source that you have used for other items confirming the name of Licona's wife [6]. Here is another for his wife and both of his children. id=NdF97o5L768C&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=mike+licona+alex+zach&source=bl&ots=SGhMLkkgOW&sig=ACfU3U0M1mP68XvyXfBHvJIllMRgZPts7Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiR6Pz8wvXgAhXhnuAKHdvCBvkQ6AEwAnoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=mike%20licona%20alex%20zach&f=false Hopefully, this will help make this entry better which is what I know everyone wants. Truthbetold15 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthbetold15 (talk • contribs) 17:04, March 9, 2019 (UTC)
- Truthbetold15, there are a number of Wikipedia policies that this article should comply with. In this case, as with all biographies of living persons, we require sources that are reliable, neutral, and independent of the subject. Not all of the sources on the article meet this standard right now, but we are doing our best to get it that way. If you are aware of any additional sources about Licona - e.g. books, magazines, newspaper articles about him - please let us know. Blogs, public letters, and interviews really aren't sufficient for these claims, and they certainly don't take precedence over material published in acceptable sources. I hope this helps. Bradv🍁 17:17, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- Bradv, A blog was used as a source indicating Licona was fired. The same standard should be used both ways. Perhaps, since you are relying on a blog to suggest he was fired and the CT article suggests otherwise, the whole thing regarding whether he was or was not fired should just be deleted. How would any source ever know the truth of the matter without interviewing Licona or NAMB or SES? Only they can answer the question. Thus, an interview would be the only means of establishing the truth. I gave sources that are just what you are asking for. I gave the a page from his book giving credit to his wife and children. That should be enough to source his family. I gave a link to the newsletter from Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas announcing his induction to this prestigious academic Society. What more would you require? I gave links to the Table of Contents of his book and University page showing the classes he teaches and the Wikipedia page defining Historian. What more do you want? These are acceptable sources. Even for an academic paper. All except the Wikipedia page. Of course, that would not be an acceptable source. Here is a source confirming Licona was not fired from SES [7]. The Wikipedia article mentions this situation three times. Twice he was fired. Once he resigned. This letter confirms he resigned. comment added by Truthbetold15 (talk • contribs) 17:04, March 9, 2019 (UTC)
- Bradv, I'm not sure why you didn't respond to my last entry. I thought, perhaps, you took the weekend off. But I see you responded to an entry below. I will try and make my points more organized and easy to follow.
- 1) Licona was not fired. The Wikipedia article states twice he was fired and once he was not. This link clearly shows he was NOT fired. Please make this correction. [8]
- 2] If you are not comfortable with "historian" then what about "Historical Jesus" research? This is the way it is listed on Bart Ehrman's page. Licona has had two papers published in the academic journal "Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus" [9] [10].
- 3] Family information: wife, Debbie; children, Ally and Zachary [11]
- 4) Membership in Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas [12]
- I can't see any reason these would not be acceptable sources. I would really appreciate a response to this message. Thank you. Truthbetold15|Truthbetold15 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthbetold15 (talk • contribs) 14:08, March 11, 2019 (UTC)
- @Truthbetold15: I wasn't notified of your earlier message because it wasn't signed properly, so I missed it. Please sign your posts using four tildes, like this: ~~~~ 1) The article does not use the word fired once. We have a source that says "removed from his position", so that is what is used. If we're missing some information, please present your sources at Talk:Michael R. Licona. 2) We do not have a source that describes Licona as a historian. 3) There is no encyclopedic reason for including the names of Licona's family members, and WP:BLPNAME says they should be left out. 4) Membership of this group may be worthy of mention, but its significance is unclear, and should be cited to an independent reliable source. The bottom line is this: This article has been the subject of targeted promotional edits, whitewashing, and original research. Per BLP policy, we need to be "very firm about the use of high-quality sources." That is my focus here. Bradv🍁 15:21, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Bradv: I tried to sign the comment by copying what was in the other messages. I apologize if I did it incorrectly. 1) I'm sorry, but "being removed" and "being fired" are virtually the same thing. I have given you a reliable source and yet you refuse to update the article to make it truthful. There is no more reliable source than a letter from the Seminary!! It doesn't matter what may have been done in the past to this article. If you are now trying to make it truthful and sourced. This is truthful and sourced. 2) I said to go ahead and describe him as someone involved in historical Jesus research just as it is done on Bart Ehrman's Wikipedia page. I then gave you two academic journal articles from the Journal of the Study of Historical Jesus Research. He debates, writes, lectures and speaks on this topic all over the world. You won't accept blogs. You won't accept his CV. You won't accept anything but a published source. I have given you one. Here is another one showing he is going to be speaking in Singapore [13]. I could send you many, many links to conferences in which he has spoken. Is that what you need? The academic journal satisfies an academic paper. Are you telling me the requirements for Wikpedia are greater than for academic sourcing? 3) Family members are given in almost all Wikipedia articles. Here is a link to the acknowledgments page of one of his books [14] Why are you singling out Licona? 4) The fact that you do not know the significance of the Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas shows the danger of people without knowledge of the subject contributing or editing articles. This is the most prestigious academic society of New Testament scholars. Of course, it would be mentioned in an article about Licona. Regardless of what was done in the past, I have been making a good faith effort to work WITH you to help make this article truthful and in compliance with your standards. When you talk about original research, I find that very interesting because Licona's entire section about Gospel Differences was completely deleted. Licona's last book was groundbreaking research in the field. This is certainly something that anyone versed in the field would know and would understand should be included in the article. However, I'm beginning to feel as though I'm running up against a brick wall and there is some sort of agenda here. Please prove me wrong. I have given good sources. I have not gone in and made changes myself. I have yielded to your opinion and asked for REASONS why the sources I have given do not meet the standard. It is hard for me to believe these sources do not meet the standard of Wikipedia when they meet an academic standard. You and I both know that Wikipedia is not allowed as an academic source. How can the standards for Wikipedia be greater than for academic writing? Or are you making the sources for Licona greater due to you frustration with previous contributors? Please explain. ~~~~Truthbetold15 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthbetold15 (talk • contribs) 15:59, March 11, 2019 (UTC)
- I've left a message on your talk page with instructions on how to sign posts. As for the rest, please read through the policy links I gave you carefully - there is plenty of valuable information in there that will answer most of your questions. Bradv🍁 16:11, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Bradv: Thank you. I did look at the link you gave me and I learned a lot. You are certainly not following the guidelines given. Of course, I haven't either since I didn't know them not being a Wiki person myself. But, I did learn that since Mike Licona is my husband I should have disclosed that. I also learned that there is a remedy when editors will not remove libelous information from an article and I intend to immediately pursue that remedy. I'm sorry we could not work everything out at this level. Every source I gave you was in compliance with the article you sent. I'm afraid you guys seem to have some sort of an agenda. I'm just now sure of the reason. You have also shown your complete lack of knowledge and willingness to even learn anything about the person and/or field in which you are editing and determining what is and is not relevant. I see you guys made it so no one can edit his page. Could you at least do some research so you at least know what your're doing? Especially, when one of the admins admits he is doing a half-assed job. These are real people, you know. ~~~~Truthbetold15 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthbetold15 (talk • contribs) 17:01, March 11, 2019 (UTC)
Message from DivaKnockouts
Regarding your edits at Rie y Llora [15], I can’t think of any source that would constantly update the view count of a music video that was originally filmed in 2003. How is YouTube not a reliable source for the video’s view count? And how is iTunes not a reliable source for its iTunes release? Is there a policy somewhere that lists those two as unreliable? And if so, why do most other articles use these two? (YouTube for view counts and iTunes for release dates?) — DivaKnockouts 18:22, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- DivaKnockouts, YouTube is not an independent reliable source, so we don't include information that is cited only to them. If a newspaper, book, or magazine article were to mention how many YouTube subscribers or viewers someone had, we could then discuss how best to include the information. The same applies to iTunes. It's also worth noting that YouTube subscriber counts are notoriously unreliable and easily gamed, and therefore do not contribute to the notability of a subject. It's best to leave the information out until a better source can be found. Bradv🍁 19:26, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- We aren’t talking about subscriber counts. We’re talking about the views of an official music video. Most song articles which have music videos generally use YouTube to reference the view counts. — DivaKnockouts 03:34, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- If you feel strongly about this, I suggest beginning a conversation or RfC on the article talk page. I do not agree that we should be including information that cannot be reliably sourced, especially for something as trivial as the number of views something has on YouTube. Bradv🍁 03:57, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- We aren’t talking about subscriber counts. We’re talking about the views of an official music video. Most song articles which have music videos generally use YouTube to reference the view counts. — DivaKnockouts 03:34, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Some bubble tea for you!
Patrick Moore is the founder of Greenpeace, and a respected scientist. He certainly has more experience and credibility in environmental matters than the esteemed bartender from the Bronx. While you clearly disagree with his point of view, it is inappropriate to use your opinion of his views to dismiss him as a lunatic. My edit should re re-inserted. JohnTopShelf (talk) 13:01, 12 March 2019 (UTC) |
- I will not revert. His perspective is not valid criticism, particularly because it makes no sense. You are welcome to try to gain consensus to include it on the article talk page. Bradv🍁 13:08, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't really understand how you could characterize the informed, cited views of a respected environmentalist and businessman, Greenpeace founder Patrick Moore, as "the rantings of a deranged lunatic, rather than actual encyclopedic criticism". Just because you may not agree with Dr. Moore does not mean you should revert an edit that injects a different point of view into the Ocasio-Cortez article. Indeed, what you do, as many Wikipedia editors do, is to violate the "neutral point of view policy". The policy only works when cited criticism of a particular stance is allowed along with the initial stance. Further, regarding your characterization of Dr. Moore, how are his statements "rantings of a deranged lunatic", when all he is doing is pointing out the absurdity of the plan promoted by Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, a former bartender with no environmental or business experience? His statements certainly make a lot more sense than her views, but that is just my opinion, just like stating that his criticism makes no sense is your opinion. After all - who are you to determine what statements make sense, and which do not? Please step back a moment from your personal opinion and try to look at this issue in an objective manner, and revert your edit removing criticism of Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnTopShelf (talk • contribs) 17:30, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps my edit summary was a bit over the top, but I stand by the edit. His claims are nonsense. Bradv🍁 17:57, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't really understand how you could characterize the informed, cited views of a respected environmentalist and businessman, Greenpeace founder Patrick Moore, as "the rantings of a deranged lunatic, rather than actual encyclopedic criticism". Just because you may not agree with Dr. Moore does not mean you should revert an edit that injects a different point of view into the Ocasio-Cortez article. Indeed, what you do, as many Wikipedia editors do, is to violate the "neutral point of view policy". The policy only works when cited criticism of a particular stance is allowed along with the initial stance. Further, regarding your characterization of Dr. Moore, how are his statements "rantings of a deranged lunatic", when all he is doing is pointing out the absurdity of the plan promoted by Ms. Ocasio-Cortez, a former bartender with no environmental or business experience? His statements certainly make a lot more sense than her views, but that is just my opinion, just like stating that his criticism makes no sense is your opinion. After all - who are you to determine what statements make sense, and which do not? Please step back a moment from your personal opinion and try to look at this issue in an objective manner, and revert your edit removing criticism of Ms. Ocasio-Cortez. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnTopShelf (talk • contribs) 17:30, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
Again - this is just your opinion. Just because you disagree, you dismiss Dr. Moore's statements as nonsense. You should not keep reverting edits that are cited, and are from an informed source, just because you do not agree with them. The fact remains that Dr. Moore's criticism is valid, or at the very least informed and cited, and should not be reverted just because you disagree with his statements. As for trying to get a consensus - I can't imaging that would ever happen with an issue this divisive. but this has nothing to do with consensus - this is about including an opposing viewpoint to achieve a neutral point of view. I understand that you wear your edit reversions as some sort of badge of honor, but editing is not about winning. I implore you to be fair and objective. - JohnTopShelf — Preceding unsigned comment added by JohnTopShelf (talk • contribs) 18:13, March 12, 2019 (UTC)
- So you know you're never going to get consensus for this, yet you want me to reinsert it? Bradv🍁 18:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
I meant there will never be consensus on whether Moore is correct or not, or whether Ocasio-Cortez is correct or not. But consensus on who is correct doesn't matter. What matters is presenting a differing point of view, by a respected environmentalist whose comments to a reputable news source were cited. That is what a neutral point of view for an article is all about. And yes - I want you to re-insert it.