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::::::4. A google search for "indie-soul artist" which will generate 100's and 100's of articles by Rolling Stone, Fader, Billboard, Reuters, PBS, Music Blogs about song/album/artists who clearly state they are indie-soul genre including dozens of grammy nominees and winners. The 10,000+ playlists named indie soul on whichever music streamer you use. |
::::::4. A google search for "indie-soul artist" which will generate 100's and 100's of articles by Rolling Stone, Fader, Billboard, Reuters, PBS, Music Blogs about song/album/artists who clearly state they are indie-soul genre including dozens of grammy nominees and winners. The 10,000+ playlists named indie soul on whichever music streamer you use. |
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::::::5. Is there a way I can provide you text book notations? [[User:Atmospherpolyphonic|Atmospherpolyphonic]] ([[User talk:Atmospherpolyphonic#top|talk]]) 10:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC) |
::::::5. Is there a way I can provide you text book notations? [[User:Atmospherpolyphonic|Atmospherpolyphonic]] ([[User talk:Atmospherpolyphonic#top|talk]]) 10:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::::1. The "Indie Soul Journeys" series seems to be factual, detailed about the genre and distributed by reliable outlet PBS. Although I don't have access to it, it is likely a good indicator of notability. |
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:::::::2. Has a paragrapgh about the genre. It is quite brief (doesn't pass [[WP:100WORDS]]), on a relatively small part of the article. (100WORDS is not a policy or guideline, just a likely indicator.) Not really good enough for notability. |
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:::::::3. It's a podcast episode, which is [[WP:self-published|self-published]], therefore very likely unreliable. The podcast doesn't appear to be well-known. |
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:::::::4. Google hits are not a guarantee of notability in Wikipedia. Again, mentions from ''Rolling Stone'' and such do not mean they're covering it in detail. Blogs [[WP:BLOG|are considered unreliable]]. As [[WP:GOOGLEHITS]] says it best, {{tq|the {{em|quality}} of the search engine results matters more than the raw number.}} |
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:::::::5. You can place comments with small portions of text from books at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indie soul|the deletion discussion page]] to indicate that certain books provide details about the genre. If you post there, more people will be able to access the excerpts to conclude whether the books can be indicators of notability. [[Copyright infringement|Don't send too much.]] |
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:::::::All in all, your correct assertions that reliable sources note that the genre exists - and the lack of reliable published detail about the genre other than from a single series - makes me think whether the article should be [[WP:merge|merge]]d and [[WP:redirect|redirect]]ed to some other appropriate article. If you provide other one or two detailed reliable sources, the article can survive. [[User:ObserveOwl|ObserveOwl]] ([[User talk:ObserveOwl#top|chit-chat]] • [[Special:Contributions/ObserveOwl|my doings]]) 11:23, 5 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Please, slow down == |
== Please, slow down == |
Revision as of 11:23, 5 January 2024
Hello, Atmospherpolyphonic!
Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! Hitro talk 10:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
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January 2024
Hello. Some of your recent genre changes have conflicted with our neutral point of view and/or verifiability policies. While we invite all users to contribute constructively to Wikipedia, we urge all editors to provide reliable sources for edits made. When others disagree, we recommend you seek consensus for certain edits by discussing the matter on the article's talk page. Thank you. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 20:41, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Speedy deletion nomination of Indie Soul
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You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.
A tag has been placed on Indie Soul requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about something invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally, and it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 20:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hi SOETERMANS, this is a very common style of music and term used to describe many artists in the genre. https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/lindsay-lou-billy-strings-queen-of-time-1234919917/
- https://rollingstoneindia.com/pune-band-fourth-lane-release-genre-bending-debut-ep-mood-swings/
- https://everynoise.com/engenremap-indiesoul.html
- https://pitchfork.com/features/lists-and-guides/the-200-best-albums-of-the-2010s/
- https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL2N0KP00O/
- As you can see from pitch fork, rolling stone, spotify, Reuters, etc etc. You should take a listen! Its great stuff. Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 20:55, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- I can't access the Rolling Stone article, but the headline, "Lindsay Lou Is Poised to Be the Next Bluegrass Queen", doesn't suggests it is about indie soul
- The Rolling Stone India mentions it once, the subtitle of the header ("Pune Band Fourth Lane Release Genre-Bending Debut EP ‘Mood Swings’
The five-track record houses pop-rock, Celtic and indie soul music")
- Everynoise states "Every Noise at Once is an ongoing attempt at an algorithmically-generated, readability-adjusted scatter-plot of the musical genre-space, based on data tracked and analyzed for 6,291 genre-shaped distinctions by Spotify as of 2023-11-19." Generated by an algorithm, based upon Spotify.
- Pitchfork list says Chvrches' "On their debut album, Chvrches ushered in a new era of dance pop with an indie soul." Not about a genre, but it's used as an adjective to describe the type of dance pop
- The Reuters article on Sharon Jones of Sharon Jones & the Dap-Kings mentions it once ("the sixth release from the indie soul group credited with reviving the genre a dozen years ago.") Reviving the genre of soul, and they happen to be an independent band, i.e., not signed to a major label.
- None of these results actually discuss 'indie soul' as an independent, standalone musical genre. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 21:32, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- Hey, Im not trying to get in an argument here, I just sent you a couple articles quickly in our side chat. An admin already removed the speedy deletion and you seem to have added it again. This is 100% a music genre did you not google it? I am not sure why this seems adversarial, that was not my intention at all. in https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/best-rb-albums-of-2016-so-far-170635/
- Anderson Paak’s Malibu begins with his gospel-raised voice and, less frequently, a rambling rap style honed alongside subterranean crews like (the sadly defunct) Hellfyre Club; and then rambles across crate-digger beat loops and pimp-ish brags. His persona seems more rooted in indie hip-hop, at least for those unfamiliar with indie-soul predecessors like Sa-Ra Creative Partners Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 21:45, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- Just a note that they did not add the speedy deletion template again; it is another template with a link to a deletion discussion here. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 21:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- Ok this just feels like one of those situation of unintentional whiteism that someone can be arguing that a widely acknowledge genre of black culture doesnt exist. Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 22:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- Just a note that they did not add the speedy deletion template again; it is another template with a link to a deletion discussion here. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 21:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- Literally every music site, apple, amazon, spotify, radio has an "indie soul" it seems very weird that this you are pushing back about it? Am I missing something here? Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 21:48, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- https://www.pbs.org/show/indie-soul-journeys/ there's not only a feature film but a whole docuseries about it Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 21:49, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- And a festival. I mean I feel like this is a "the sky is blue" situation. https://www.nepm.org/regional-news/2021-08-18/springfields-indie-soul-festival-is-about-music-and-what-happens-between-songs Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- Figuring out Wikipedia also includes learning to judge what are reliable sources. A passing mention in a best of 2016 album list does not help. Music streaming services like Spotify, Apple Music and Amazon algorithmically 'create' playlists and music stations. A PBS series that describes itself as "Indie Soul Journeys is a television music docuseries devoted to the personal inspirational and musical stories of independent soul, R&B, and urban alternative artists who are still following Black American Music traditions in the modern musical era." might definitely have the title 'indie soul', but again does not somehow mean it is its own musical genre. We go by reliable sources, like music critics and music magazines and websites. Indie, short for independent, doesn't automatically mean a particular sound or style. You brought up Sharon Jones and Anderson Paak. Can you find a source that suggests they make the same kind of music? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 22:10, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- Rolling stone, pitch fork, Reuters, PBS, NPR, Spotify, Apple, a multiple grammy winners who call themselves indie-soul https://rxmusic.com/editorial/kameron-corvet-finds-his-authentic-voice-through-his-latest-release/ "indie soul music scene" My guy. You are really off base here. There isn't even a question wether or not indie soul exists this is crazy that you think this is controversial. It is clear that you are not aware of a rather large diverse community and you are trying to deny a part of black culture on the internet because someone had the audacity to start a wikipedia page about a topic you clearly don't know about. Which is the point of wikipedia. There is zero percent that should be controversial here. It doesnt matter that 10 articles said Indie soul once. That is all thats necessary in a review for a competent writer. You don't read a rock article in which they say they are a rock artist 10 times. That is a completely illegitimate commentary. I'm not going to find a rock writer comparing Pink Floyd to Foo Fighters but they both play rock don't they. Completely illegitimate. In 10 sec I provided you 10 quick articles, movies, and media that all reference indie-soul genre and its community. I didn't add them to the page as citation. I gave them to you. In "private" I think that you should step back and reflect on whats going on here. Racial bias on Wikipedia. I told you that I will properly reference on the page. Providing you with some quick examples in a friendly way was not about properly citing, it was about kindly informing. Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 22:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- From His own concerts page.
- Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
- How many concerts has Anderson .Paak had?
- Anderson .Paak has had 441 concerts.
- What genre is Anderson .Paak?
- Anderson .Paak is most often considered to be Hip Hop, Alternative, Soul, R&B, Contemporary R&B, Neo Soul, Alternative Hip Hop, Indie Soul, and Escape Room. Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 22:39, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- You aren't wrong brother. I think it was presumptuous. Don't forget to more thoroughly finish sourcing an article before publishing and make use of draft. Indie soul is clearly a music genre but you didn't do a great job upfront of sourcing and polishing. Therealdingo1 (talk) 04:02, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Look. It certainly can exist as a genre, but that is not an argument for keeping an article. What is argued in deletion discussions is the existence of independent reliable sources that talk about the genre in detail - not just passing mentions. See WP:GNG. The PBS source looks promising, though I can't access it. The NEPM source seems to give more details on the festival than the genre itself. Spotify and Apple Music categories aren't really considered for notability requirements; do the websites detail in text what indie soul is? The rest of the sources seem like passing mentions.
- So what I'd recommend doing in order to save the article is present WP:THREE reliable sources at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indie soul that don't just quickly mention "indie soul" as part of one's music style - they should talk about that genre in much more detail. (Two high-quality sources would be technically enough, since the GNG says "multiple", but presenting three of them is more convincing.) I see that you've included a lot more sources in the article, but that makes it more difficult to separate between which of them actually talk about the genre in good detail, and which of them just throw one or two facts that happen to involve indie soul. See WP:BOMBARD (someone already mentioned this link in the discussion). ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 07:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Im just quite confused right now as to how there is question or disagreement over a music style that if you google has 100's of articles in which major artist say "I am an indie-soul artists" from every publication that covers music. As far as specific just explaining indie soul.
- 1. [Undeniable - The Story Independent Soul Music Movement]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy8QF0q82Lk (which spawned a tv series with PBS focused on individual artists [Indie Soul Journey]https://www.netaonline.org/episode/indie-soul-journeys [Undeniable director brings TV project]https://rollingout.com/2017/01/25/undeniable-director-brings-latest-project-indie-soul-journeys-television/)
- 2. [Essential Guide to Contemporary RnB Soul Music]https://thebluesproject.co/2023/05/essential-guide-contemporary-rnb-soul-music/
- 3. [How Indie Soul became a multibillion dollar genre of music]https://www.deezer.com/us/episode/277717612?utm_campaign=clipboard-generic&utm_source=user_sharing&utm_content=talk_episode-277717612&deferredFl=1
- 4. A google search for "indie-soul artist" which will generate 100's and 100's of articles by Rolling Stone, Fader, Billboard, Reuters, PBS, Music Blogs about song/album/artists who clearly state they are indie-soul genre including dozens of grammy nominees and winners. The 10,000+ playlists named indie soul on whichever music streamer you use.
- 5. Is there a way I can provide you text book notations? Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 10:32, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- 1. The "Indie Soul Journeys" series seems to be factual, detailed about the genre and distributed by reliable outlet PBS. Although I don't have access to it, it is likely a good indicator of notability.
- 2. Has a paragrapgh about the genre. It is quite brief (doesn't pass WP:100WORDS), on a relatively small part of the article. (100WORDS is not a policy or guideline, just a likely indicator.) Not really good enough for notability.
- 3. It's a podcast episode, which is self-published, therefore very likely unreliable. The podcast doesn't appear to be well-known.
- 4. Google hits are not a guarantee of notability in Wikipedia. Again, mentions from Rolling Stone and such do not mean they're covering it in detail. Blogs are considered unreliable. As WP:GOOGLEHITS says it best,
the quality of the search engine results matters more than the raw number.
- 5. You can place comments with small portions of text from books at the deletion discussion page to indicate that certain books provide details about the genre. If you post there, more people will be able to access the excerpts to conclude whether the books can be indicators of notability. Don't send too much.
- All in all, your correct assertions that reliable sources note that the genre exists - and the lack of reliable published detail about the genre other than from a single series - makes me think whether the article should be merged and redirected to some other appropriate article. If you provide other one or two detailed reliable sources, the article can survive. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 11:23, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
- Figuring out Wikipedia also includes learning to judge what are reliable sources. A passing mention in a best of 2016 album list does not help. Music streaming services like Spotify, Apple Music and Amazon algorithmically 'create' playlists and music stations. A PBS series that describes itself as "Indie Soul Journeys is a television music docuseries devoted to the personal inspirational and musical stories of independent soul, R&B, and urban alternative artists who are still following Black American Music traditions in the modern musical era." might definitely have the title 'indie soul', but again does not somehow mean it is its own musical genre. We go by reliable sources, like music critics and music magazines and websites. Indie, short for independent, doesn't automatically mean a particular sound or style. You brought up Sharon Jones and Anderson Paak. Can you find a source that suggests they make the same kind of music? soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 22:10, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Please, slow down
Hi Atmospherpolyphonic, it's fantastic that you want to help out Wikipedia. But please, slow down! You are kind of acting like a WP:GENREWARRIOR, by adding unsourced genres to articles on musical acts. Have you taken a moment to check out the guidelines? There you'll read about what Wikipedia is all about, what its core guidelines are. Sources are very important, a website like this is not considered a reliable source to consider 'indie soul' to be a whole different genre of music. You'll need some time to get used to Wikipedia, so please, take a step back and familiarize yourself with it. soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 20:53, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- I will add the sources, sorry for working in a backwards method, I just realized there hadnt been any work done in the area and was doing so. I have sources for all. Will address now. As far as Every Noise All At Once. It is probably the most authoritative database of music in the world actually. It is a AI based database that a guy(Glenn McDonald) developed many years ago to Map music and music styles. Spotify hired him and bought the database and it is one of three prongs of everything that spotify does for suggesting similar music. He was just fired last month but for the past many years he has run Spotifys music catalog. He is considered the peimenatie voice on music genre and connective sounds. Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 21:00, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't realize that this would at all be controversial/contested because it was quite widespread and normal to me. My apologies. Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 21:05, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- If you are interested in music sound history and or music genres his book is amazing. Its called you have not yet heard your favourite song Atmospherpolyphonic (talk) 21:08, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Nomination of Indie soul for deletion
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Indie soul until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.soetermans. ↑↑↓↓←→←→ B A TALK 21:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)