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:::On the second topic, I'll try to add some stuff to the RfC page as you mentioned before. Thanks. [[User:Agent00f|Agent00f]] ([[User talk:Agent00f#top|talk]]) 15:53, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
:::On the second topic, I'll try to add some stuff to the RfC page as you mentioned before. Thanks. [[User:Agent00f|Agent00f]] ([[User talk:Agent00f#top|talk]]) 15:53, 14 May 2012 (UTC) |
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[[User talk:Hasteur|Hasteur suggests]], 'I am open to a currently uninvolved editor agreed to by both sides in the dispute being appointed as a "Judge of Conduct" on behalf of Agent00f. If editors raise a polite request for Agent to not do something that is rejected, the editor may go to the JoC for a ruling to determine if it is a real problem or if it's just the editor being cranky.' This is a good compromise proposal and falls within [[WP:MENTOR]] guidelines. In DR, it is important for the mentee (or "protege") to be able to accept voluntarily terms where the mentor would have certain supervisory powers. Would you be willing to use a hypothetical mentor if (a) you would get to agree with the certifiers on who it would be and (b) you would be required to submit to the mentor's rulings? [[User:John J. Bulten/Friends|JJB]] 19:07, 17 May 2012 (UTC) Also, thank you for admitting #13 was intemperate. The admission is a big deal to people. From there it's a short step to be able to pull up the page and add <nowiki><s> and </s></nowiki> around the first clause of that sentence, and it does wonders for your stance before accusers. Is that something you could do please? [[User:John J. Bulten/Friends|JJB]] 19:13, 17 May 2012 (UTC) |
[[User talk:Hasteur|Hasteur suggests]], 'I am open to a currently uninvolved editor agreed to by both sides in the dispute being appointed as a "Judge of Conduct" on behalf of Agent00f. If editors raise a polite request for Agent to not do something that is rejected, the editor may go to the JoC for a ruling to determine if it is a real problem or if it's just the editor being cranky.' This is a good compromise proposal and falls within [[WP:MENTOR]] guidelines. In DR, it is important for the mentee (or "protege") to be able to accept voluntarily terms where the mentor would have certain supervisory powers. Would you be willing to use a hypothetical mentor if (a) you would get to agree with the certifiers on who it would be and (b) you would be required to submit to the mentor's rulings? [[User:John J. Bulten/Friends|JJB]] 19:07, 17 May 2012 (UTC) Also, thank you for admitting #13 was intemperate. The admission is a big deal to people. From there it's a short step to be able to pull up the page and add <nowiki><s> and </s></nowiki> around the first clause of that sentence, and it does wonders for your stance before accusers. Is that something you could do please? [[User:John J. Bulten/Friends|JJB]] 19:13, 17 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:I have no problem if someone actually neutral and would be willing to engage in substance instead of just rhetorical claims (ie "I say so") had oversight. You obviously aren't up for nomination, but someone in the same vein is definitely acceptable. Please note that self-proclaimed neutrality of the sort we've all seen and "editors in good standing" don't count. I'll strike that clause and offer to strike other similar one as reasonable others see fit. Thanks. [[User:Agent00f|Agent00f]] ([[User talk:Agent00f#top|talk]]) 19:15, 17 May 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:15, 17 May 2012
A belated welcome!
Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Wikipedia, Agent00f. I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for your contributions. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Wikipedia:
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page, consult Wikipedia:Questions, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there.
Again, welcome! Hasteur (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
April 2012
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would ask that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Hasteur (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the welcome. I've contributed before to a few technical pages a different username and sometimes anonymously from work, but it's always nice to be invited by another and I will try to reciprocate.
- Woah... you might want to explicitly declare the link between the accounts via Wikipedia:SOCK#NOTIFY for the different username as having multiple accounts for any reason except for a few very documented reasons is not allowed. Contributing via a IP is not explicitly prohibited, but make sure to stay away from the same discussions so as to not present the appearance of attempting to change the consensus with multiple accounts. Hasteur (talk) 12:51, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
- I can't remember what my prior account was named (apparently not the handle I commonly use) and have long lost use of email address it was listed under anyway. That's why I registered a new account in first place.
- Woah... you might want to explicitly declare the link between the accounts via Wikipedia:SOCK#NOTIFY for the different username as having multiple accounts for any reason except for a few very documented reasons is not allowed. Contributing via a IP is not explicitly prohibited, but make sure to stay away from the same discussions so as to not present the appearance of attempting to change the consensus with multiple accounts. Hasteur (talk) 12:51, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
May 2012
Please assume good faith in your dealings with other editors. Assume that they are here to improve rather than harm Wikipedia. Newmanoconnor (talk) 21:13, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have no idea what you're specifically referring to. I'm guessing it has something to do with claiming that either someone doesn't consider in the user experience, or someone only thinks in terms of bureaucratic rules. Both are provably true statements, and therefore not an assumption. Also, while both approach may have the side effect of ruining wiki, I've never said that was their intent. Agent00f (talk) 01:40, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
See your plethora of comments on WP:MMANOT talk page. Yes you have been calm and somewhat reasoned on some posts, but at this point, and for the majority of posts, you aren't doing anything but being disruptive and making accusations about people on personal missions, being bureaucrats, questioning their integrity and intelligence. You aren't helping anything. Why don't you spend some of this energy finding sources to prove why a single UFC event of your choosing is notable enough for a single article.Newmanoconnor (talk) 03:15, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
- Please be specific instead of using vague accusations. It's quite unfair if I'm not able to defend myself due to what I'm currently assuming is unintentional ambiguity. Everything I've said is well measured and backed by clear and indisputable evidence. For example, I have labeled this as a dispute between bureaucrats and user advocates: these are carefully chosen descriptive words derived from folks' descriptions of their own decision making process. If you have a problem with bureaucracy, please take it up with people who describe themselves as such, not the observer. As another example, it's trivial logic that the same set of information re-organized in a confusing format to get around the letter of the rules is not a "better" design in any conceivable way, therefore it's clearly insulting to tell users that it stands on its merits while trying to force them to take that blatant falsehood in good faith. Again, I see the problem as the action, not the observation.
- As for the time I've spent forming numerous clear and rational arguments, that was only because I started out assuming that folks who claimed that "logical and rational" arguments would be taken into account were acting in good faith. Now we both know this was never going to be the case, so I'm not sure why you're puzzled how things turned out. Agent00f (talk) 03:35, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Final Warning regarding disruptive editing and lack of good faith assumptions
This is your final warning. Stop Filibustering, posting long diatribes regarding the unfairness, bureaucracy of wikipedia, entire arguments that the status quo for MMA articles "doesn't hurt anything", and deliberately attempting to derail the consensus process. The next posting you make on WT:MMANOT that strays into any of these realms, I will open a filing on the Administrator's Noticeboard asking for an outside Administrator to evaluate your posts in the context of "building a collaborative encyclopedia" to determine if sanctions (up to and including Topic banning you from all MMA related articles,blocking you from editing any wikipedia article,or banning you from the site entirely). This is not a threat, I am simply illuminating what the next step will be in the process. You've been warned my me, by other editors, and by an admin who is somewhat involved in the discussion. Please consider modifying your behavior as it is currently unacceptable. Hasteur (talk) 11:47, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
- So, is it the policy of wiki for editors to continuously make arbitrary accusations without evidence? I've asked for substantiation of any of these charges, but none has been forthcoming, so I'm puzzled as to why you believe them to be true. It's also notable that list of "banned by Hasteur" topics is currently what's under discussion at the MMA omnibus page, so the request is to essentially voluntarily ban myself from the conversation, or else. Look, I don't doubt that you have more pull with perhaps some other insiders that you've come to know in the past, but please consider how this kind of behavior reflects on your peers when one party to a "consensus" takes to threats to prevent the other side from participating. Agent00f (talk) 12:21, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Administrators' noticeboard
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. | pulmonological talk • contribs 17:14, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. Regarding your edits to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability, it is recommended that you use the preview button before you save; this helps you find any errors you have made, reduces edit conflicts, and prevents clogging up recent changes and the page history. Thank you. TreyGeek (talk) 17:11, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, this is a bad habit of mine. I'm usually doing something else when I use the interwebs, but I'll try to keep this in mind. Agent00f (talk) 17:14, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
The Original Barnstar | ||
Thank you for your great work. |
MMA Space
I'm certainly willing to contribute regularly and heavily to any of the following: Individual pages, omnibuses, pre-existing indexes and proposed indexes. What I'm more reluctant to contribute to is the notability guidelines. If you continue putting together intelligent proposals, I will continue to support them. The real issue with contributing right now, is the deletionist horde operating in that space, who are intent on getting us to put work in, which they will then nominate for deletion. I really don't want to edit articles with people standing behind me just waiting for me to finish, so they can blank the work. Sunny Sundae Smile (talk) 13:01, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
I can't promising anything, but I think you'll like the ideas that are coming.... Hope you at least retain interest until Monday. :) Agent00f (talk) 01:11, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Notice
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is User:Agent00f. Thank you. Mtking (edits) 04:53, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is invited to contribute, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability, did not appear to be constructive and has been reverted or removed. Please use your sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and read the welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. Thank you.
The purpose of talk pages is for discussion on how to improve articles, not for "revolutionary" announcements. If you wish to make such comments, your user talk page is an appropriate place. If you wish to directly discuss MMA notability guidelines, recent proposals, and/or your own MMA notability guidelines, that is welcome at WT:MMANOT. TreyGeek (talk) 04:55, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.
Please be particularly aware, Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:
- Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made; that is to say, editors are not automatically "entitled" to three reverts.
- Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Mtking (edits) 04:56, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
Talkback
Message added 07:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Mtking (edits) 07:28, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
The obvious subterfuge of this offer demonstrates that the message of the text was perceived to be a grave threat. Make no mistake, it was designed to be. Your 3RR threat is meaningless and I couldn't care less. Agent00f (talk) 09:52, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Notice
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Call for sanctions. Thank you. Hasteur (talk) 00:05, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Stop any more MMA deletions =
I have made a formal request at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents to ban Newmanoconnor, Mtking and TreyGeek banned from deleteing more MMA pages, any help would be good
ScottMMA — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScottMMA (talk • contribs) 03:54, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Talkback
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
--Policy Reformer(c) 09:50, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Blocked
Please take a few days off. Your participation in those MMA debates has long become nonconstructive, and your recent incessant, aggressive filibustering, mixed with personal attacks (most recent edit: [1], plus previous similar ones) is really no longer acceptable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:08, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- This sanction only validates the observation that wiki rules are trivially gamed by the likes of Mtking, while earnest users who try to point out systemic shortcomings are punished. The MMA Notability debate has been nonconstructive for months and will continue to be unless something is changed, yet an attempt at restarting it sans the common denominator of past failures is being blocked. This AN has been like a parody of what's been going on there: substantive contributors driven off while the petty bureaucrats reign. Agent00f (talk) 12:35, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
- PS, did someone forget to edit the policies page? I just checked and FORUMSHOP and ADMINSHOP are still listed as violations rather than encouraged for efficacy. Agent00f (talk) 12:47, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
Unblock Request
Agent00f (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
The blocking admin only refers broadly to "filibustering", and "personal attacks" while failing to provide any actual reasoning to relate these accusations to my comments other than they're "unacceptable". The substantive content I've added only state directly observable facts of the case (which can admittedly shine a poor light on some users, as is rather the point of an AN), since admin decisions need to be based on a complete understanding of facts. Note this AN was only the latest by the same party (3 users) against me, so it was only appropriate to be detailed and verbose to avoid yet more frivolous AN's in the future. As far as I can tell, the Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise is only citing WP:TLDR, which doesn't exist, and blocking someone who isn't just tossing about 1-liner as seems to be the norm and therefore expected. Agent00f (talk) 23:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Substantiation according to WP:GAB,
- Admit to it.. It would help if I knew specifically what I need to admit to. Contributing substantive and complete arguments is in the spirit of both wiki and debate in general. Contributing directly observable facts, even if the list is long, is also not against the rules. For example, in a DUI case, iterating prior DUI's and other factual events that relate to personal responsibility are entirely relevant, even if they reflect badly.
- Make people trust you again. I can't imagine why there was any distrust in the first place, unless there's an inherently distrust of those who substantially back up their assertion.
- Don't do it again. . I suppose I can stop doing this, and fit in by only dropping one-lines packed with WP:RULES to be contradict by someone with their WP:OTHERRULES, but IMO this doesn't really help given it's what led to the string of past failures on this whole affair.
- Tell us why you are here. This whole MMA/wiki affair is a classic case where the aggregate level of intelligence displayed has been insufficient to solve it. The topic is a cesspool of circular reasoning and terrible logic. Compounding the problem by piling more warm bodies onto the "consensus" process won't help, and I'm trying to propose a smarter process which still involves all parties and bypasses the former obstacles. The AN which I suppose circumstantially led to this block was from a wholesale deletion of this proposal by a party who is a common denominator in all the past failures.
Finally, it's worth pointing out that Future_Perfect_at_Sunrise made this block without closure or even a note to the AN that was initially created as yet another frivolous harassment against me. Others are now allowed to make accusations unopposed; this seems wrong. Agent00f (talk) 00:46, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Decline reason:
I guess you missed the part of GAB called NOTTHEM. Read that, then try again. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Agent00f (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
The block only refers broadly to "filibustering", and "personal attacks" while failing to provide any actual reasoning to relate these accusations to my comments other than they're "unacceptable". The substantive content in question only state directly observable facts of the case, since admin decisions need to be based on a complete understanding of facts. It was entirely appropriate to be detailed and verbose to avoid yet more frivolous AN's in the future given this one was only the latest in a string against me. The blocking reason seems functionally equivalent to WP:TLDR, which AFAICT doesn't exist. Substantiation according to WP:GAB,
- Admit to it.. It would help if what specifically I need to admit to. Contributing substantive and complete arguments is in the spirit of both wiki and debate in general. Contributing directly observable facts, even if the list is long, is also not against the rules. For example, in a DUI case, iterating prior DUI's and other factual events that relate to personal responsibility are entirely relevant, even if they reflect badly.
- Make people trust you again. It's not obvious why there's distrust in the first place, unless there's an inherently distrust of substantial assertions.
- Tell us why you are here. There's a given affair on wiki that's persisted for many months despite multiple attempts at resolution. I'm trying to propose a smarter process which still involves all parties and bypasses the former obstacles. The block was a circumstantial side-effect (not the closure) of an AN involving this affair. Agent00f (talk) 03:04, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- I guess you missed the part of GAB called NOTTHEM. Read that, then try again. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Decline reason:
Looking at your editing history, I see a solid battleground mentality, with multiple extensive posts which at their best are designed to explain why everyone you don't agree with doesn't know what they are talking about, and at their worst are full of accusations of evil conspiracies. I also see numerous unmistakable declarations that you regard yourself as on a sort of crusade to force through what you regard as the RIGHT view, against the forces of evil in the form of those who have different views from yourself. I see substantial disruption caused by huge numbers of unreasonably long diatribes. And so on and so on ... there are so many ways in which your editing is just not constructive, whatever your intentions may be. There is nothing to suggest that you would edit in any other way if you were unblocked: on the contrary, you deny that there is any problem with your editing, and make it perfectly clear that you have no intention of changing. The one thing about the block which, it seems to me, may be considered open to question, is that it is for so short a time. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:43, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
- As far as I can tell, this addresses nothing written in the unblock request, and seems to be its own battle rant on how terrible I am without any attempt to understand the context and therefore basis of its conclusion. It's hard to imagine this meets any kind of institutional standard for addressing a specific problem much less wiki admin. Agent00f (talk) 09:06, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Um, did you put subst: in front of this? It makes your unblock request unusable. Of course, so does your request ... please see WP:GAB, WP:TE and WP:DISRUPT, then maybe delete the unblock and try again. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 23:35, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestion, but it's best if uninvolved editors take this request. Substantiation of claims is also welcome as always. Also please do not assume unfamiliarity with formal academic standards of logic. Agent00f (talk) 23:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
- Please note; I already declined the above unblock request, but I don't have the time to fix everything now. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:41, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Also, per WP:BLANKING, you aren't supposed to remove declined templates while the block is current. Ishdarian 03:44, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the suggestion, but it's best if uninvolved editors take this request. Substantiation of claims is also welcome as always. Also please do not assume unfamiliarity with formal academic standards of logic. Agent00f (talk) 23:46, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Sockpuppetry case
Your name has been mentioned in connection with a sockpuppetry case. Please refer to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Agent00f for evidence. Please make sure you make yourself familiar with the guide to responding to cases before editing the evidence page. Newmanoconnor (talk) 22:20, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for continuing to validate the claims of WP:HARASSMENT terrorism by the MMA AfD clique targeting any dissent. No doubt 86.149.148.121 is hesitant to sign up since we all know that happens to people who speak out. I'll add this to the mountain of supporting evidence against the clique in only the latest of frivolous AN's SPI's against me. Agent00f (talk) 22:49, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
It's not harassment, it's genuine concern that you were evading a block. It's nothing to freak out over. FYI Hasteur came to your defense. I don't have any way to check a named accounts IP's, but apparently the suspicious one is from the UK, and Hasteur believes you are from the US...Or knows it. Not sure which.Newmanoconnor (talk) 00:15, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's just more of the tactic that this same group has been using against anyone who dares dissent against their historic string of failures (over many months) to reach any kind of lasting resolution on this topic. I've only joined for about a week or two and the trash above from them on my talk page is but a small sample of their general strategy and pattern of harassment, intimidation, and subterfuge. No assumptions are necessary here when the evidence is so clear. Agent00f (talk) 00:23, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- So because the accusation was made for any reason you're going to strike out at anybody? Ok, my good faith extensions (Defending you on the SPI, asking that discussions be held up until you're unblocked) are over with. I tried to extend a olive branch after being counseled privately that I was coming across as a bit of a dick. I look forward to our mutually beneficial collaboration once you're unblocked. Hasteur (talk) 00:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- We're talking about the pattern of harassment exhibited by the exact same predicable parties against anyone who do not accept that they're the authoritative voice of the disccusion. Simply look at the massive influx of junk above by the same few people, look at their history of action (including torrents of AfD's while discussions are ongoing) against MMA contributors/users, and lack of any substantiation once they're called out. If someone else has better words to describe this, the floor is open to them. Agent00f (talk) 00:51, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agent00f, I'm sorry this made you feel that way,it certainly was not my intention,which is why i struck the above and in the SPI said i would defer to the other guys on this matter,who both said it wasnt you.Newmanoconnor (talk) 01:39, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- This isn't about how I "feel", but rather the fact of the case. "We'll stop harassing you if you stop dissenting" is not evidence that harassment did not occur. This systematic pattern of harassment has the effect of discouraging participation from other voices, regardless of intent. The only way to demonstrate otherwise is to cease this category of actions altogether, including MtKing who is the presiding pinnacle of such behavior. Agent00f (talk) 01:46, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- In reference to your revert of my edit(Please do not erase evidence from others' user pages in direct violation of WP:TALKO editing rules. Striking it out was sufficient.), It is considered common courtesy to remove a sockpuppet notice if it is in error, or closed as such. I was advised so by multiple users and an admin.Newmanoconnor (talk) 14:59, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agent00f, I'm sorry this made you feel that way,it certainly was not my intention,which is why i struck the above and in the SPI said i would defer to the other guys on this matter,who both said it wasnt you.Newmanoconnor (talk) 01:39, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- We're talking about the pattern of harassment exhibited by the exact same predicable parties against anyone who do not accept that they're the authoritative voice of the disccusion. Simply look at the massive influx of junk above by the same few people, look at their history of action (including torrents of AfD's while discussions are ongoing) against MMA contributors/users, and lack of any substantiation once they're called out. If someone else has better words to describe this, the floor is open to them. Agent00f (talk) 00:51, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- So because the accusation was made for any reason you're going to strike out at anybody? Ok, my good faith extensions (Defending you on the SPI, asking that discussions be held up until you're unblocked) are over with. I tried to extend a olive branch after being counseled privately that I was coming across as a bit of a dick. I look forward to our mutually beneficial collaboration once you're unblocked. Hasteur (talk) 00:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Teatime
Agent, I know you want to help out with the MMA fiasco, but you're going about it the wrong way. Right now, here's what your block says:
- 15:06, 6 May 2012 Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk | contribs) blocked Agent00f (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 72 hours (disruptive editing: aggressive filibustering, walls of text and personal attacks on WP:ANI and elsewhere)
- This edit is a prime example of disruptive behaviour.
- This edit is an example of the soapboxing, and the edit summary is lacking in the assuption of good faith to boot.
- Soapboxing again, and the 'no one trusts them as human beings' bit is a personal attack.
This stuff isn't really acceptable per community norms. I appreciate the fact that you're bringing a different perspective to the issue, but you need to do it in a calm, collected fashion. Use policy and diffs to re-enforce your points, not massive walls-of-text. I can assume good faith with all editors involved, because everyone is trying to better the 'pedia. There are holes in the policy right now, and that's what you, me, Anna, Trey, Connor, MtKing, et. all, are trying to plug up. It takes consensus, and consensus takes time. If you see a point you don't agree with, refute the point. Don't bash the editor. Don't refer to like-minded groups as cliques; it puts a barrier between you and them. We should all be working together, not against each other. Ishdarian 04:44, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- We're on the same page that not everyone who disagrees with any particular POV is in a "clique", and even if they somehow are, there might be good reason. However, it's difficult to deny the categorization altogether when you see two users who worked closely to the exclusion of others (a fact directly confirmed by admin Dennis) both participate in a revert war yet write me up for 3RR by circumventing the brightline rule between themselves (breaking the internal logic/spirit of the rule via collusion as mathematically defined). I tried to be accurate and objective, not simply throwing around epithets. In the same vein, I can't see what's fundamentally disruptive with producing a list of clear violations by two users in question in an AN.
- In general, while some the wording of the content from me above was perhaps a bit SOAPish to convey a point, the message is true and intended to highlight a substantive argument. If it's wiki policy to always formulate the message in a given format as a rule, then I can certainly comply and accept the sanction as a lesson learned about prose, but it doesn't change meaning.
- On the point of "assuming" good faith, I've observed on the subject before that those familiar with the course of events often no longer have to assume. The material/links on this talk page is illustration enough of "what happens" to people who are not in a small fold on acceptable opinions. We both know the same doesn't happen if I were on the other side of the issue. It's disappointing when this kind of admin/rule-shopping finally conveniently finds the right one.
- In general, we're in agreement and I have no reason to complain about wiki policy except when it's in violation of the 5th pillar. Processes are guidelines (ie. generalizations) in place to resolve a majority of problems, and this affair is simply not within that 95% it's designed to conveniently resolve. To avoid re-writing what's already been said, the last reply here to Policy Reformer who makes the same argument reflects my view on why continuing to make the same assumptions when there is a history of failure seems wrong. I apologize it's not directly related to the block at hand but there's no reason to violate the block in spirit again by ranting, so please just ignore the THEM and SOAP parts since rest apply.
- I appreciate the reply, though I suppose none of us appreciates the fact the process thus far has consumed a lot of time with questionable results. Agent00f (talk) 05:38, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- The 3RR issue never should have gotten to where it did. If you had known about the rule, I guarentee you wouldn't have wandered into that territory. It wasn't really forum shopping to report you at WP:AN3. That board is there specificly to deal with edit-warring and 3RR violations. Those who lurk AN/I know that posting 3RR vios at AN/I is generally bad juju.
- This issue is slowly crawling forward. I know it seems like a lot of the same, but at WT:MMANOT, there is actually progress towards setting up an RfC. And they're waiting for you to come off your block to give your input. This is the furthest this ordeal has gotten in months. A lot of the badgering socks have gone away. What we have left are valuable contributors.
- You come off your block in a few hours. I suggest waiting it out till then. I'm not trying to be a dick, but I think you need to lay off the ditribes while participating in the current MMA discussion. If you feel anyone is doing anything against policy or trying to bait you into getting into trouble, come talk to me; I'm more than happy to help. Ishdarian 06:07, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- One thing I forgot to mention: Assuming good faith goes very far. Stating On the point of "assuming" good faith, I've observed on the subject before that those familiar with the course of events often no longer have to assume is not the kind of attitude to have when requesting an unblock. Even if you don't agree with how someone is going about things, never assume bad faith; it only leads to trouble, and a very painful 'rang. Ishdarian 06:12, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. On "diatribes", I often find that describing a complex idea simply (esp when using external logic), it can create unnecessary confusion and even more work afterward. The consequence is a balance between oversimplification and "obfuscation". The reality is that when someone uses incorrect reasoning, they're often wrong for nontrivial reasons not easily codified. If you look carefully, most of IRL and wiki-law in particular is specifically designed to avoid actual reasoning for other social processes (ie compromise, etc). Agent00f (talk) 06:23, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
Agent00f has been retaliating against the relentless tyranny of a group of editors. The behavior of these editors has been some the worst I have ever seen on Wikipedia. I commend Agent for taking this on all by himself. Portillo (talk) 01:09, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. I don't mind sticking my neck out for the underdog stakeholders here against those who abuse the system to destroy the value of their work. Agent00f (talk) 09:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Autoblock
About your e-mail request: that was an autoblock, probably triggered because you tried to open a page for editing some time during the last 24 hours before the block expired. It's not something we admins have control over, and I must say I find the way it is implemented by the software quite confusing and not very useful, but as I said, we can't do anything about it except to manually remove it whenever somebody complains about it. Since you are now editing again, I suppose it's expired in the meantime. Sorry for the trouble. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:30, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Your recent email
Thank you for your email. Here are a few replies to some of your points.
1. If you look at this edit, you will see that the content I restored had indeed been placed there by you. The formatting was different, because the process of copying used in declining or accepting an unblock request does not always maintain the format, and this gave a different impression, but the text was that which you had posted.
- This claim is very tenuous. The text was copy & pasted from the prior unblock request to prevent losing it. When Ishdarian created the new box/template, it should've been removed since the original copy now exists right above, in the proper area. The claim that the "text was that which you had posted" as if I whole created it with no other context is at best a circumstantial technicality.
2. You wanted me to take the effort to adjust the formatting to make it "remotely readable". It was readable, although perhaps not neat. I could indeed check every time I do something such as accepting or declining an unblock request on the off chance that this is one of the few occasions where the user has used formatting that has not been maintained, and then spend time prettifying the formatting. I am not sure that would be the best use of the time I have available for work on Wikipedia, but I will consider it. Thanks for the suggestion.
- Scrambling carefully formatted bullets and threaded replies into one long unformatted string is not "readable". It makes the unblock request reason look as incoherent as as the reply to it. That's unfortunately only one of the many massive ironies of the process, another being the ranting reply whose style wouldn't even be remotely acceptable as an unblock reason.
3. You ask me to be more "conscientious". If you can tell me in what way you think my conscience has been wanting, then I will consider whether I agree, and if so what I can do to improve.
- Conscientious at a basic level means ability to self-reflect. For example, this is conscientious: "...If it's wiki policy to always formulate the message in a given format as a rule, then I can certainly comply and accept the sanction as a lesson learned about prose, but it doesn't change meaning." A failure to recognize that one's work violates one's own rules about ranting and whatnot is not conscientious. As a constructive pointer, perhaps read over whatever you might post in the future and ask if this is acceptable to you if it came from another.
4. You say that I am "unprofessional". Indeed I am, as all Wikipedia editors are. We are all amateurs, and being "unprofessional" is not a criticism of someone who is not supposed to be professional. JamesBWatson (talk) 20:28, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- This isn't an argument over semantics. Professional here means acting in a manner that reflects well on the organization. In light of this, your statement implies that no wiki admin should hold themselves to any standard because they aren't paid. Professional behavior generally includes trying to understand the point rather than dance around it. This leads to the other pointers for improvement: avoid focusing on irrelevant technicalities, and communicate to convey meaning rather than confuse it.
- Replied. Agent00f (talk) 21:09, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Talkback
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Replied. Ishdarian 03:22, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Congratulations and Thank You...
...for all you've done to protect Wikipedia, MMA and rational thought from a small, but extremely determined, deletionist bureaucracy. Your time was not sacrificed in vain, though it can seem that way at times. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:40, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute to Wikipedia, at least one of your recent edits, such as the one you made to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/MMA notability with this edit, did not appear to be constructive, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any test edits you would like to make, and read the welcome page to learn more about contributing constructively to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Darry2385 (talk) 01:01, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can you elaborate on why you need to delete a simple question based on simple fact to an editor who's clearly trying to BITE/intimidate another without questioning the larger context? Also, as a heads up, should I expect more censor-deletions against what I write in the future? Thanks. Agent00f (talk) 01:07, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I see you've also deleted another comment addressing accusations against me without doing anything about the baseless accusations. Good to see such earnest editors in action to make wiki a welcoming and constructive place! Thank you. Agent00f (talk) 01:12, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
RfC/U notice
As per the procedures, I wanted to make you aware of Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Agent00f. The process is voluntary and designed to bring in outside viewpoints from the dispute to attempt to negotiate a solution. Hasteur (talk) 01:27, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agent00f, RfC/U is not a venue to continue bickering between those editors with whom you are clearly in dispute with regarding this. Your response section is for the purposes of responding to the certified dispute; if you wish to amend parts of your response to include material which is included in the amended certified dispute, that is not really an issue. However, if you wish to comment on individual views or comments, please use the talk page as noted here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:32, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- The material I replied to was posted in that section by Ravenswing, not me. Agent00f (talk) 08:36, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- ...which is why his material was also moved to the talk page (and which is why he did not attempt to reinsert it on the main page, collapsed or otherwise). On a separate note, please note that I have posted a reply to one of your comments on the talk page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:47, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're saying here. I directly replied to it in that section. I saw it was in the talk section, too, which is confusing. Agent00f (talk) 09:00, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- The main page contains a statement of dispute (by certifiers and those involved in the dispute), and a response to the statement (by you). Additional views are also made on the main page by outsiders to evaluate what is said in the statement, response, and sometimes on the talk page. However, comments on additional views, and general discussion between the parties as to views/comments should be on the talk page. Ravenswing made a reply/comment on your response which should have been made on the talk page, not the main page. You similarly made a threaded reply to Ravenswing's comment on your response; that also belongs on the talk page, not the main page. Do you follow? Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:10, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- What caused the confusion was that I didn't see the material was already removed from main page when I hit save. It was there when I started the reply. It's more clear what happened now I looked at the edit history. I'm aware Raven probably should've posted there, but I'm not enough of a stickler for technicalities that I cared. Agent00f (talk) 09:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't understand this edit. Why would a notice that these are replied to below a bad thing? Isn't the point here for everyone to see comments and replies before forming a judgement? Doing this without a link only means that folks will skim over the rest and perhaps miss the replies since they're embedded in other material. Agent00f (talk) 10:03, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- The main page contains a statement of dispute (by certifiers and those involved in the dispute), and a response to the statement (by you). Additional views are also made on the main page by outsiders to evaluate what is said in the statement, response, and sometimes on the talk page. However, comments on additional views, and general discussion between the parties as to views/comments should be on the talk page. Ravenswing made a reply/comment on your response which should have been made on the talk page, not the main page. You similarly made a threaded reply to Ravenswing's comment on your response; that also belongs on the talk page, not the main page. Do you follow? Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:10, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you're saying here. I directly replied to it in that section. I saw it was in the talk section, too, which is confusing. Agent00f (talk) 09:00, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- ...which is why his material was also moved to the talk page (and which is why he did not attempt to reinsert it on the main page, collapsed or otherwise). On a separate note, please note that I have posted a reply to one of your comments on the talk page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:47, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- The material I replied to was posted in that section by Ravenswing, not me. Agent00f (talk) 08:36, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I too am running afoul of RFC/U's strongly constrained technical requirements. However, NCM is an excellent moderator and, if NCM strongly recommends not ignoring rules because it improves the discussion (because of high risk of being derailed), I affirm. The basic requirement is that outside users are limited to writing their own outside views, asking questions of the participants, and endorsing briefly the views of others; participants are also allowed to answer questions. Each of these has its own place. Recommendation of solutions can also be done by anyone. For the sake of clarity it's best to stick with these, and though I think I told you somewhere that adding an "@JJB" section to your view (response) is acceptable, it appears this is probably not best practice. Discussion seems to be progressing toward appropriate closure, however. JJB 18:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Welcome to the fray
TLDR the above. I made a couple substantive comments on the pages you are editing, and wanted to give you a belated welcome to a process that involves great difficulty but also often eventually "works out". There are a few policy considerations that we may have time to clear up, but I wanted to start with a simple test case. You seemed to imply once or twice that you have edited MMA articles under IP or a separate account. In the interests of total transparency, especially when your motives are being questioned, it is best to be upfront about what this may involve; you may believe that this would invite deletionist or vindictive responses, but you don't need to be worried about the local consensus because the community interests are much better served by the transparency and that helps you get the local consensus built.
In short, policy on alternate accounts is very explicit: "Contributing to the same page or discussion with multiple accounts" is a plain "must not" category, and this is widely construed, so if one account contributes to talk and another to mainspace on the same single-purpose topic, it is best to admit it. Have you edited WP under any IPs or any other account name, and can you provide details please? (If the first answer is "Yes" and you are discovered dodging that fact later, that would be about the worst case for your interests. However, if it's "Yes" and you have other concerns, state them frankly, as Wikipedia familiarity with methods of using alternate accounts will usually result in a reasonable stock answer for the concerns.) Thank you for your consideration to this threshold question. JJB 14:26, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hasteur asked something similar above, and I've answered there same as I would here. I've never edited MMA pages or been involved in MMA space before. I do not bother to log into sites if unnecessary (and only did so here because of visibly rampant witchhunts for sock puppets), and as personal choice never log in at work or via work vpn. The first kinect edit is representative of my few edits per year in high tech/physics/math space. You can tell from its rather decent formatting that it's not the first time I've done this before. Thanks. Agent00f (talk) 20:54, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good start. I'm going to cut you a wide swath of good faith here with the following assumption about alternate accounts, which really is a threshold question. I'm going to assume you have full understanding of alternate account policy and that you're taking full responsibility for all Wikipedia activity from all accounts, including any backlash resulting from misunderstanding if any alternate activity is discovered, no matter how legitimate it may be. I'm assuming that any prior, current, and future editing via IP (and any alternate(s)) will not be anywhere near the MMA topic area and that your Agent00f account will not be anywhere near another alternate, if any. I'm also assuming that your statement at RFC/U talk, "I don't intent to log in for other page edits given the possibility of vindictive AfD's from this crowd. (many pages on high level technical topics on wiki might not pass AfD/sourcing)," means that the edits for which you don't intend to log in have nothing to do with MMA. Since your statement there was ambiguous and could be taken as an intent to edit MMA via IP, which would be Very Very Bad, you're innnocent until proven guilty. Please do work on avoiding ambiguity. Verbum sat.
- I can safely say in bold: Do not edit anything having anything to do with MMA anywhere unless logged in as Agent00f. If you have any any qualms whatsoever about this brightline, I strongly recommend this guideline. But otherwise, welcome to Wikipedia!
- I think the best next question would be, I spotted your three-link proposal but have not reviewed the links yet; I mentioned this at the bottom of my outside view just now. Can you give us any summary or context to get us started on how these links could be used as a full proposal? In particular, what are the goals or benefits that you are seeking via particular data presentations, including Google rankings, findability, sortability, internal linking, and so on? Is there a convenient list of use cases? I am a database programmer and knowing the "business requirements" upfront (in addition to the community requirements) would be the best step for a final policy-compliant article set. JJB 00:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've logged in via my account for MMA related comments for just that reason. It's not difficult and it protects technical pages (some of which are relatively unsourced, as you may be aware of) from AfD. MMA-related related issues can be solved via this process; let's all pray the same people don't find other subjects not to their liking and start this BS all over again.
- On the second topic, I'll try to add some stuff to the RfC page as you mentioned before. Thanks. Agent00f (talk) 15:53, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Hasteur suggests, 'I am open to a currently uninvolved editor agreed to by both sides in the dispute being appointed as a "Judge of Conduct" on behalf of Agent00f. If editors raise a polite request for Agent to not do something that is rejected, the editor may go to the JoC for a ruling to determine if it is a real problem or if it's just the editor being cranky.' This is a good compromise proposal and falls within WP:MENTOR guidelines. In DR, it is important for the mentee (or "protege") to be able to accept voluntarily terms where the mentor would have certain supervisory powers. Would you be willing to use a hypothetical mentor if (a) you would get to agree with the certifiers on who it would be and (b) you would be required to submit to the mentor's rulings? JJB 19:07, 17 May 2012 (UTC) Also, thank you for admitting #13 was intemperate. The admission is a big deal to people. From there it's a short step to be able to pull up the page and add <s> and </s> around the first clause of that sentence, and it does wonders for your stance before accusers. Is that something you could do please? JJB 19:13, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have no problem if someone actually neutral and would be willing to engage in substance instead of just rhetorical claims (ie "I say so") had oversight. You obviously aren't up for nomination, but someone in the same vein is definitely acceptable. Please note that self-proclaimed neutrality of the sort we've all seen and "editors in good standing" don't count. I'll strike that clause and offer to strike other similar one as reasonable others see fit. Thanks. Agent00f (talk) 19:15, 17 May 2012 (UTC)