86.10.231.219 (talk) →Conduct: Concerns re Talk:Anecdotal evidence? |
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::'''Why Claudius?'''? Which is where the first "full reference" perhaps coincidentally numbered "54" points. It should and did point to where it does on the [[Talk:Anti-vaccination]] page which is where discussion of that should and does take place if you have any wish to inform rather than spread your own untrue version of events. [[User:Midgley|Midgley]] 12:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC) |
::'''Why Claudius?'''? Which is where the first "full reference" perhaps coincidentally numbered "54" points. It should and did point to where it does on the [[Talk:Anti-vaccination]] page which is where discussion of that should and does take place if you have any wish to inform rather than spread your own untrue version of events. [[User:Midgley|Midgley]] 12:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC) |
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== Your user page == |
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As I said on my edit to your user page, if you wish to have a user page, get an account and follow [[WP:USER]]. In general, publishing your disputes with other users on your user page is considered to be '''unconstructive''': you might like to have a look at [[Wikipedia:Dispute resolution]] for other ideas as to how to pursue your grievances. [[User:Physchim62|Physchim62]] [[User talk:Physchim62|(talk)]] 20:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:39, 11 February 2006
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Thanks for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks. --Jwissick(t)(c) 23:15, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Reply in thanks put on Jwissick's talk page - see Diff for message:- [[1]] 86.10.231.219 23:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Time & Tide
Thanks for the note. Will be waiting. The Invisible Anon 16:48, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Please watch Talk:Autism
Finally a little on a talk page, eh? Please see what others might say to the question of diet and Autism there. The diet and autism section is weak in the article. By the way, why not just establish a presence with a logon? You could edit from other locations and when your IP address changes some time in the future you wouldn't lose your ability to track contributions ans such. Also you could elect to get eMail. That feature is nice, and Wikipedia won't reveal your eMail address. Kd4ttc 23:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Sorry
My apology. The note on the User page appears to have been made by someone other than yourself. Kd4ttc 23:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Comment removed from User page
An anonymous fringe editor publishing rubbish. (unsigned comment by User:Midgley removed from User page) 21:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Votes of Anons Do Count
Votes of anons do count. Need strong evidence of bad faith not to count them. See [Rough Consensus] ".... administrators can disregard opinions and comments if ... strong evidence ... not made in good faith ... "bad faith" opinions include those made by sock puppets, being made anonymously, or being made using a new userid whose only edits are to the article in question and the voting on that article." Check edit history for evidence of good faith and do not presume bad faith. The Invisible Anon 12:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if I am presuing to instruct an Englishman on English, but that page as referred to, and the text as quoted above are not easily construed in that fashion.
- "..."bad faith" opinions include those ... being made anonymously..." is by far the most obvious way to read that composite sentence. I believe the same applies in the American version.
- To test that, you could ask, or you could look for an example - a precedent or a common occurrence, of anonymous votes being counted.
- I'm pleased to see this user now has a user page. Midgley 13:24, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Woolf pack?
It would be much appreciated if you could remove your list of 'Woolf pack' members from your user page. I am not a puppet (sock- or meat-) of User:Jfdwolff, and I do not take direction from that editor or any of the editors on your list. I suspect that the other editors you have listed feel the same way.
It is also inappropriate to describe another good-faith editor as a 'medical graffiti expert', and you would be well-advised to remove that characterization. Making personal attacks on other editors is never an acceptable practice on Wikipedia.
To make communication with you easier and more reliable, I would strongly recommend registering a username. It's free, requires no personally-identifying information, and would allow you to have your own user space, rather than the anonymous space attacked to a random NTL IP address. Your preferred name, 'The Invisible Anon', is even still available. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for your comments and I am taking careful note of what you say.
- The 'medical graffitti expert' is a joke. It is quite a funny one. Let me explain. The user page was completely blank. Like a blank wall in the street. It had nothing on it. Then, suddenly, someone writes on it - just like a graffitti artist. And he wrote "An anonymous fringe editor publishing rubbish." See for yourself - here is the evidence [[2]].
- I know Adrian Midgely enjoys a joke and this one is quite apt in all the circumstances. This is not a personal attack and I find it hard to characterise it as such. However, I will be happy to consider your view further on the point. Perhaps you might also let me have your views on these questions: was it the action of a good faith editor for Adrian to do that? Isn't that an attack on another editor and on his user page no less? Haven't I dealt with it in a light-hearted manner and not taken offence? But, shouldn't I be the injured party?
- Regarding the user pages listed on my user page, if there is a Wiki policy I can turn to to see if there is anything and what it might be that is objectionable, if at all, that would be helpful. So it is important to know to what is being objected to. Do you not agree that time and again the same names appear to crop up on the same pages? A number of the users listed on my user page, for example all appear on the RfD page [[3]].
- It is the same people every time. I can see that some of them co-ordinate with each other over these matters and there is evidence to show that. These are not all people acting in isolation but in co-operation and I keep seeing the same names over and over.
- As for logging in, I have given that consideration. No other user is using this IP address to edit on Wikipedia. If one does, then I will consider the suggestion further. Until that time, if it were ever to occur and I doubt it very much, I am the one disadvantaged by not having registered on the system. I could ensure my messages are signed with pgp signature.
- This is an example above. I have deleted the signature with this edit but the diff will always show the original message and signature.
- I am certainly willing to consider modifying the text of the user page to take account of your concerns and any Wikipedia policy that is relevant. Do you object, for example, to just being listed as an editor who edits or comments on pages as I edit or comment on? The Invisible Anon 22:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Anti-vaccinationists, discussions etc
Hmmm - there is a user & talk page as you said - I thought anons did not have - one learns something new every day :-). That said, unless you have a fixed internet link and stable URL number, the question arises is '86.10.231.219' always you ? If it is stable and only usable by you then why not register, if only to show to others that all contributions are from one person and allow people to engage in discussion, rather than perhaps it reflecting many people via an ISP sharing the same URL who might each hold opposing views and so make discussion difficult. I'm happy to accept that many desire or required to be "anonymous", so names without any reference to gender, religion, geographical location or political observation is admirable and indeed most WP usernames are effectively anonymous handles. Anyway, enough digressing and on with the discussion: Thank you for your courteous comments on my talk-page. Don't worry about your entry's length, although I think my talk page is getting overlong and in need of archiving. P.S. this entry seems even longer than yours:-)
I agree several other editors had failed to revert the deleted text, but you'll understand I was quite incensed at seeing the deletion (especially as it had taken me a couple of goes to post my vote, what with my computer crashing a couple of times - not you fault of course !)
The real problem for articles debating epidemiology/risks to complex issues is that the discussion must be held about complex research and data interpretation, which is probably at too deep a level for a general encyclopaedia such as wikipedia. I agree one can't just say "a minority disagree that X is safe for reasons that the majority reject", but getting too deep into a debate makes articles almost unreadable to the general casual reader. Heck, even I find the articles terse and a struggle to get through, but I have no magic solution to offer as to where to draw the line. There should be a role for external references to provide the greater detail, but articles can't be just bland one-line dictionary definitions with a huge numbers of references; they need to include some structure as to the outlines of the issues to give meaning and relevance to the deeper information to be found from a few selected references. Consensus on such articles will come I suspect less from agreeing the merit of specific arguments, but on NPOV summarising (vs. fully defending each POV) with then a few choice references outside and away from wikipedia. This then allows the reader to extend their understanding in either direction, and whilst the article wont be a "complete" discourse, it should be acceptable as an encyclopaedic entry.
You eloquently set out the (dare I say it) acceptable concerns that might be raised about any treatment, namely what is the potential harm if a treatment is not used, how effective is that treatment and what are the adverse effects of so using the treatment. You are quite right that good research (leaving aside what this precisely is, and where anecdotal reports fit into evidence gathering), should in time help quantify the statistics. This should be agreeable by all, although quite how appropriate to put every last detail into wikipedia that is meant to be a general encyclopaedia rather than a research paper is debatable - that is the point of having references (I happy for a risk to be written in WP as 'about half' rather than a technically precise but emotionally empty '48.15%'). However I disagree with you that such agreed statistics would end debate or disagreement (I wish that it could/would):
- Risk-benefit analysis is not only quantitative but also qualitative; being subjective in as much that each risk/benefit percentage must then be weighed by an importance-factor. Hence the effort in having to look both ways before crossing the road affects 100% of people, against being hit which is a smaller percentage. Yet the "statistics" do not result in us all crossing the road without taking care - clearly the cost of the 'effort' in checking is minimal although affecting everyone, yet the cost of being hit is huge. This makes discussion of a treatment's 'worth' harder than just a balance of percentages, there is scope here for genuine disagreement, for there is no intrinsic absolute truth in value judgements - I give below an example:
- A young child (say 7 who is old enough to have some discussion with but too young to take absolute responsibility for their decisions) might refuse having a blood test due to needle phobia, irrespective of the possible benefit in their overall care (despite best efforts of doctors & parents to try to explain at their level of understanding) . A parent then 'forcing' their child to have a blood test, is certainly going to immediately feel some guilt for upsetting that child.
- The statistical likelihood of the blood test helping to make a difference to the diagnosis, disease assessment, treatment options and eventual outcome can be debated - some of this may be hard statistical evidence, some is open to discussion or even great uncertainty (a blood test for an infection may allow correct treatment and life-saving cure, a test that confirms a cancer that after assessment proves incurable will, in retrospect, not have helped that child). Perhaps a more useful discriminator would have been some additional fact from the patient's history rather than resorting to a blood test.
- So it is difficult to absolutely quantify the possible benefit of getting the test done against the blatantly obvious existence of emotional trauma involved in getting any blood taken.
- Indeed in this respect medicine might be seen as partly an art in the application of science - I'm sure most doctors sometimes defer non-immediately-critical investigations/treatments they know from experience are likely to be for the best, for just such reasons (until perhaps circumstances change and greater weight applies to a particular course of action/inaction).
- Next is the issue of data presentation and weight. I've seen media articles about some life-threatening adverse effect of a treatment stating that doctors claim it is safe yet (shock horror) that they admit to a third of patients experiencing side effects. Of course this sort of statement is (deliberately) misleading, as side-effects will include not only the exceptionally rare life-threatening events mentioned, but also the many time more common side-effects that are mild, transitory and with no long-term consequences. Whilst not dismissing the potential for serious reactions and the need to spot early, this type of statement tries to imply that a third of patients will have the life-threatening consequences. In case you were wondering I've seen such articles relating to antibiotics (perhaps 33% experiencing mild stomach or bowel upset \ anaphylactic allergic reactions a tiny risk \ in appropriate circumstances treatment life-saving) and some anti-malarials (many cause taste disturbance or poor sleeping \ psychiatric disturbance is rare \ getting malaria can kill).
So, with good reason, the idea that the 'facts will out' and everyone will come to a consensus is both probably impossible and will be argued over with bias.
I think in part the problem with contentious articles is that the aim of wikipedia is somewhat vague; in that it can try to be all things:
- At a very basic level is simple dictionary definition of terms e.g. "Flat-earth: the belief the world is flat and not a sphere" or "Vaccines: analogues of an illness that by injection into a person stimulate the immune system with the aim of conferring protection against the full infection". I hope both are NPOV even though flat-earth is rejected by most, vaccines accepted by most.
- The next level up is a definition at the level of a young teenager's encyclopaedia. This might describe slightly more fully: perhaps difference of virus and bacteria, of using just a part of the micro-organism in a vaccine, of having some soreness at site of injection, and then a hint of the issues that whilst recommended by most, some question how useful they are.
- However by the time one reaches a school leavers text book one should be discussing: levels of vaccine effectiveness, herd immunity and benefit this gives to those not yet vaccinated or failing to respond to a vaccine themselves vs. reduced likelihood of personal benefit.
- WP is though usually above this and generally seems to have articles that expand in their latter sections to under-graduate levels.
- The level of "ferocity" in some of WP's controversial articles seems more like that of the esoteric debates at post-graduate/research levels.
Now aside form the merits of any aspect within a debate about a topic, it is clear that the amount of information and thus presentation of mankind’s understanding (and thus shade of Points of View) builds up with the increasing target-level of the article. I think everyone could agree to NPOV at level 1 above, and within each side of the debate there is likely to be some POV disagreements at the stage of level 5. The question is the approach at the level of 3-4 of both maintaining overall article NPOV and the style of discussing each POV. I'm sure its just about possible, but 'about' is unlikely to be perfectly so.
As the complexity increases with each audience target level, so the amount and care with qualifying language needs to increase. Indeed at the deepest level of considering any facet of a topic is nearly always "this is the level of current understanding". Reaching this stage is likely to be inappropriate within wikipedia, or fall foul of original research rules.
All this I guess is a long way of considering how much info we want on vaccination, the arguments either for or against (either on specific issues, or conventional acceptance vs. alternative outright rejection) and the movements that hold these views. I don't know quite where I would place my own cut-off point, but would discussion about the "process of encyclopaedia compiling complex articles", rather than purely focusing on the details of the contents of an individual article, allow an acceptable article to be formed (vs. each side viewing an article as imperfect). I would suggest that abortion forms a good analogue - current article contains a dictionary definition of what it is & its history section (NPOV even if one disagrees with abortion), followed by the debate of the arguments against & the counter-arguments (the opposing POVs). The article neither suggest that abortion is a good thing (even pro-choicers would much prefer that a women never finds herself in a situation with an unwanted pregnancy), nor that all accept it is morally acceptable or unacceptable. Both pro-choice and pro-life viewpoints probably see the article as biased against their POV, but I think the article is a good encyclopaedic entry.
I do think that the anti-vacinationists article is in need of POV/NPOV consensus, but even more importantly consensus on what level to pitch debated medical topics, but I don't think that warrants Afd. I'll look forward to catching up with discussions after my wikibreak with a real-life week's holiday. David Ruben Talk 05:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Please see comments on my talk page
Please see comments at User_talk:Kd4ttc#Rfd_Anti-Vaccinationists Kd4ttc 17:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
RFC
RFC found here not originating with me. - JustinWick 22:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
a block paragraph is done with hard line breaks and a single space before each line otherwise they run and run and run and run and run off the side of the page and it's really annoying to read... your comments on RfC have this error, please amend (preview is your friend). - JustinWick 23:53, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Ubernosy question
Just out of curiousity, why edit anonymously if you feel strongly about your edits? It has been my experience that editors often take anon edits less seriously... also login names do not appear to be easy to trace back to real world individuals (except in my case, where I just used my name, time will tell if that was a good decision). Cheers, - JustinWick 02:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Allopath
The problem with using the term allopath to describe a practitioner of conventional medicine is that it carries some ugly baggage. Allopath is defined simply as 'on who practices allopathy', a term for which you have already provided a definition. It was invented by Hahnemann as a deliberate caricature of his preferred homeopathy, and it was (and is) used as a pejorative term.
To an extent, the term has been co-opted or subverted (if you will) by mainstream medicine, and some organizations now consider 'allopathic medicine' a synonym of 'conventional' or 'Western' medicine. Note that the preferred formulation–if you must use it–is 'practitioner of allopathic medicine', and not 'allopath'. An allopath is one who follows Hahnemann's caricature, a practitioner of allopathic medicine is actually practicing conventional medicine.
In the context of vaccination debates, describing vaccination as 'allopathy' has a particular potential to confuse—vaccination is based on exposing patients to compounds and organisms very similar to those which cause disease.
From the standpoint of writing an encyclopedia article, the meanings of 'conventional' or 'Western' are understood by a much larger audience than 'allopathic'. There's no need to use a more obscure term when it is no more precise and when it is seen as loaded. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:53, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you. You are kind to take the trouble to explain this. I have also been looking at the definition of the term following the comments of others. The Invisible Anon 15:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Midgley
Please stop using the page User:86.10.231.219 as a platform to attack User:Midgley or to impugn the motives and good faith of other editors. If you would like to discuss the appropriateness of edits–addition or removal of material, name and location of articles–do so on the article talk pages. If you feel that more eyes are needed in an article dispute, the Request for Comment process is thataway.
Further testing the bounds and enforcement of our civility and personal attack policies is Not Done, all right? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Conduct
Two other editors have seconded my concerns regarding your conduct at the RfC for Talk:Anecdotal evidence. Having read your recent user history, my concerns have broadened. I am not a contributor to the pages or subjects where you are active so please take this as the advice of a neutral observer. We all feel strongly about some issues. This does not necessarily mean that those who disagree have violated any policy. And if some do, there are many ways to resolve the matter constructively. I say this because it looks like your own user conduct may merit an RfC. I'd rather not see that happen. Durova 22:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Comment left at Durova's talk page 00:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC):-
- How can I help? What do you consider of concern about Talk:Anecdotal evidence. It seems to me the content points you raised at Talk:Anecdotal evidence were answered in an appropriate manner. What did you find gave you concerns at Talk:Anecdotal evidence." Some specifics would be helpful.
- Kd4ttc has personal involvement on a number of levels. What did the two editors who second your views think? I assume he is not one?
- Your personal involvement includes a differing opinion of and defence of the behaviour noted here [[5]] of the anon editor using 4 different IP addresses to make comments worthy of a raised eyebrow.
- The relevance of Kd4ttc's comment being "ganged up on by physicians with a narrow POV" defeats me I have to confess as I do not see anyone at Talk:Anecdotal evidence suggesting anyone is being "ganged up on". Is that what you think?
The Invisible Anon 00:07, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
- You also posted to my user page and I replied there yesterday. Your reaction at Talk:Anecdotal evidence was not encouraging. RfC is a tool to help resolve a specific disagreement. If you really think the article deserves praise for excellence, then the place to seek feedback is Wikipedia:Peer review. I don't think this article is ready for peer review, but you have the right to try it. Durova 17:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Still no response regarding alleged concerns re Talk:Anecdotal evidence. The only one so far is "[filibuster]ing" [[6]] which is clearly inapplicable as can be seen from what is necessarily a clear direct and plain reply to ensure there is no confusion [[7]] The Invisible Anon 19:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
More Deletion of Fully Referenced Information
Following comments from Midgley moved from User Page - my reply below:-
- "And here is the actual content of that page, demonstrating the references offered do not actually say what was asserted":-
- "In particular, I'd question the references":-
- "In London, England uptake of the MMR vaccine is approximately 50% 54
- "this is a link to the Mail article, in a news summary on the BMJ site. Quoting it as BMJ rather than Mail could be seen as an effort to raise its status from newspaper to learned journal, whjich, it has been asserted, is a common behaviour in anti-vaccinationist publication. Reading it, what it actually says about uptake is "The report reveals that in seven London boroughs, uptake of MMR remains below 50 per cent. " Not in London therefore, since there are more boroughs than that. One could easily think that was a deliberate misrepresentation in direct speech. You know, a lie."
- "and in some areas uptake is a low as 10% 55".
- "Figures from the Department of Health for 2004-05 showed that in Westminster, London, just 11.7 per cent of children were immunised by their fifth birthday."
- "One area. Not actually, quite, if one were trying for accuracy, as low as 10%. In fact a completely truthful description might be more like "no area was as low as 10%" "
- "In other parts of the UK the uptake is similarly low. 56 Was that referring to this quote: "Craven and Harrogate areas featuring among the country's 10 poorest performers at 52.8 per cent,"
- "52.8% similar to 10% which is not the level which Westminster fails to achieve by age 5 (note that the Torygraph picks up that single jabs mean the course is completed later - if it is - so if you look at later ages you'll find a slow pickup from that.)"
- "after that short intermission we return to something that might be science"
- "The Cochrane review has been undermined by subquent further reports of harm caused by the MMR vaccine raised by the former senior UK government scientific advisor on vaccine safety. 57 "
- "I think he might be a former senior ... rather than the singular definite article. Otherwise it would be creeping up his status, don't you think?"
- "GOing to that article we see":-
- "after agreeing to be an expert witness on drug-safety trials for parents' lawyers," ... "He called the sudden termination of legal aid to parents of allegedly vaccine-damaged children in late 2003 "a monstrous injustice"."
- "Oh did he oh was he oh what a pity about the funding for his appearance going away. Gosh. Midgley 15:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)"
In Reply
The main assertion is "the references offered do not actually say what was asserted" and there is lying and deliberate misrepresentation:-
- "approximately 50%" is neither lying or nor misrepresentation of "54%".
- a round figure of "10%" is neither lying nor misrepresentation of 11.7%
- it is not lying or misrepresentation that other parts of the country have "similarly low uptake" to London (ie. 50%) when they do
- the Daily Mail is not lying or deliberate misrepresenting London MMR uptake as below 50% when they did not say that and neither did my text
- the former senior government scientist on vaccine safety who speaks out cannot have a financial conflict of interest when he is no longer a paid expert witness in litigation
- others who spoke out are investigated by the GMC, so he is taking a brave position
- it cannot be lying or misrepresenting a report being from the BMJ when the news story states clearly at the beginning it is from the Daily Mail
- It is also interesting to note the censorship on Wikipedia - all of the links to the [Abolish The GMC Campaign] on a mere talk page have been deleted [[8]]. Oh, and Fletcher was the senior government adviser.
The Invisible Anon 11:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
- Why Claudius?? Which is where the first "full reference" perhaps coincidentally numbered "54" points. It should and did point to where it does on the Talk:Anti-vaccination page which is where discussion of that should and does take place if you have any wish to inform rather than spread your own untrue version of events. Midgley 12:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Your user page
As I said on my edit to your user page, if you wish to have a user page, get an account and follow WP:USER. In general, publishing your disputes with other users on your user page is considered to be unconstructive: you might like to have a look at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution for other ideas as to how to pursue your grievances. Physchim62 (talk) 20:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)