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ciao, I am Italian and I consider DIREKTOR a professional titoist activist of a Croat party but you can report him in ANI <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.206.126.34|193.206.126.34]] ([[User talk:193.206.126.34|talk]]) 16:31, 21 October 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
ciao, I am Italian and I consider DIREKTOR a professional titoist activist of a Croat party but you can report him in ANI <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.206.126.34|193.206.126.34]] ([[User talk:193.206.126.34|talk]]) 16:31, 21 October 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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[[Image:Stop hand nuvola.svg|30px|alt=|link=]] This is your '''only warning'''; if you make [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|personal attacks]] on other people again, you may be '''[[Wikipedia:Blocking policy|blocked from editing]] without further notice'''. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people.<!-- Template:uw-npa4im --> ''Your persistence in continuing the feud with DIREKTOR is not helpful to the encyclopedia. Your inclusion of TParis in your uncivil remarks is not helpful either. Distance yourself, or sanctions may ensue.'' [[User:KillerChihuahua|KillerChihuahua]]<small><sup>[[User talk:KillerChihuahua|?!?]]</sup></small> 21:34, 21 October 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:34, 21 October 2011
2011 |
Croatian Women's Cup finals
I stumbles upon a Croatian newspaper archive. http://library.foi.hr/nv/default.aspx?G=1&u= Those newspapers cover football at like 3 pages per day. I wondered if one is able to find results or at least runner-ups from 1992 to 2001. As i don't speak Croatian and don't know the dates of the finals, i can't come up with good searchterm to create few good results. Maybe you could have a short try at that site? Something like women's cup final, women's football, year final, or cupwinner + final or something. Thanks in advance. -Koppapa (talk) 16:26, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
Attendances
Info is taken from annual yearbooks (Almanah YU fudbala) published after each season. I'll add it a as a non-linked source.99.255.217.164 (talk) 14:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
Croatian county templates
Why did you mass move them without discussion? I for one disagree with the moves, because the phrase "Cities and towns in Bjelovar-Bilogora" doesn't actually mean anything - the counties are never referred to like that, without the prefix, AFAIK. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 23:14, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't think it would be controversial. They were inconsistently named anyway so I was looking for some standardised format for all of them before I do some cleaning up on them, standardising names of urban and rural subdivisions, fixing endashes, adding county coats of arms and removing flags from headers. I merely wanted a logical and short name for all templates. Do you have a better idea? Timbouctou (talk) 23:18, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- How about "Subdivision(s) of X County" for template names and titles? Timbouctou (talk) 00:08, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- Definitely with the suffix. It also occurs to me that the word county was likely chosen because of an equivalence with American counties - e.g. Anaheim is not located in "Orange", but in "Orange County", just like Biograd is not located in "Zadar", but in "zadarska županija".
- BTW prefix plural ("subdivisions" rather than "subdivision") seems more appropriate, judging from existing practice in article titles. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 10:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I figured the county suffix didn't matter since these are just template names and thus not visible to readers, plus they are all in the category called "Croatian counties". Btw how about changing cities/towns to "urban" and municipalities to "rural" like they call them in German equivalent templates? Općine are rural and Gradovi are urban by legal definition anyway, and it might save us the trouble of using two terms (city/town) when one can suffice. Plus there are settlements which are urbanistically considered towns but are not legally recognized as such (like Hum), and vice versa (Kaštel). The urban/rural distinction cuts straight to the point. Timbouctou (talk) 11:11, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- So would this result in changes to Infobox settlement settlement_type variables, to say "Urban municipality" and "Rural municipality", respectively? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:54, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I wasn't planning on tinkering with infobox settlement but it sounds like a good idea I'd gladly support. I suppose that would also include renaming Category:Cities and towns in Croatia and Category:Municipalities of Croatia then. I'm not sure if this would constitute WP:OR or WP:V though. Timbouctou (talk) 12:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- Generally I support this line of thinking, still grad is officially translated as city (not town) therefore I suppose city should be used term for grad (regardless of what city or town really is).--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm wary, too. For example http://www.dzs.hr/Eng/censuses/census2011/censusact.htm and http://www.dzs.hr/Eng/censuses/census2011/censusfaq.htm seem to consistently use the terms "county, "town", "municipality" and "settlement" so we can't stray that much. It's not super-official (binding), but it's close. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- There's this source too.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:55, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah I know. While it is true that the terms "urban" and "rural" would seem like our invention since official terminology does not use them, we are probably entitled to simplify things for readers, at least in navigation boxes. We could explain what we mean by that via wikilinking "Urban" to some dedicated article such as List of cities in Croatia or "Rural" to Municipalities of Croatia. On the other hand, DZS uses the term town for everything except the City of Zagreb [1],Article 22, so if we are to follow their designations then everything urban outside Zagreb is officially a "town" in English. Timbouctou (talk) 13:14, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe we should just go with the 2005 amendment which defines a city ("veliki grad") as anything urban with more than 35,000 people (there are 17 of those in Croatia). If a county has one or more its template will still say "Cities and towns" and if it doesn't then it's just "towns". Same for infobox settlement. Timbouctou (talk) 13:30, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that would make it an entirely arbitrary translation as veliki grad is not the same as city. Since there is no agreed difference between terms city and town we are fairly free to choose either, however city appears to be preferred translation by the MVPEI and the cities themselves and English language permits that choice be influenced by local legislation. Other possible distinction, which is purely traditional, is that a city has a royal charter - and that is not entirely applicable since such charters were last issued in Croatia hundreds of years ago: in that case, for instance: Požega would be a city even though it is not a veliki grad while a number of veliki grads would end up as towns. Alternatively, there is a tradition that a city has a cathedral: once again, Gospić would be city, while Slavonski Brod would be town. -- I propose that only city be used as a simple solution preferred by local and central government and permitted by English language. We need not be more catholic than the pope and make distinctions where there are none - and if veliki grad need be translated, then translate it as a large city or something along those lines.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- On a further note - town may come in handy to describe settlements which do not legally qualify as cities (e.g. no city government), but are not villages, even though they may be small in terms of population: Buzin and Dugopolje are hardly villages, but they are not legally cities - and that would somewhat mimic the "royal charter" criterion for cities.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:42, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- The English language dictionary definition of a "city" is "urban settlement larger than a town" while a town is an "urban settlement smaller than a city". Every other attempt to define the two terms is either historically outdated (cathedrals, charters, and the like) or purely arbitrary (in large countries a "city" would be something above 50,000 people while in small countries 20,000 can suffice). MVPEI's preferences are totally irrelevant, especially since the same translators who compiled the manual also translated Croatian legislation - including the law on the census itself which (in its English version) calls everything outside Zagreb (including Split and Rijeka and Osijek) a "town". And I assure you, no professional translator would translate "veliki grad" as "large city" - precisely because the term "veliki grad" was legislators' way of circumventing the fact that Croatian language does not have the distinction the target language (English) has. If there are "large cities" then there must be "small cities" and if every urban settlement is thus a "city" then it seems Croatia is the only place on Earth where towns do not exist. And resortng to the "town" label only for settlements which "look urban" but aren't legally that sounds pretty arbitrary to me. Timbouctou (talk) 10:56, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- What I proposed above for the town/city distinction does follow size distinction thus Croatia would not be the only place on earth where towns do not exist. As far as professional translators are concerned I suspect I may know a few of those and what they would do.:) Position taken by the DZS is clearly flawed as it would imply that Zagreb is the only city in Croatia. I just wanted to point out that a lot of settlements defined as grad declare themselves a city and thought that wiki should reflect the sources instead of what may or may not be meant by veliki grad, I do not intend to change anything at any rate.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:25, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- The English language dictionary definition of a "city" is "urban settlement larger than a town" while a town is an "urban settlement smaller than a city". Every other attempt to define the two terms is either historically outdated (cathedrals, charters, and the like) or purely arbitrary (in large countries a "city" would be something above 50,000 people while in small countries 20,000 can suffice). MVPEI's preferences are totally irrelevant, especially since the same translators who compiled the manual also translated Croatian legislation - including the law on the census itself which (in its English version) calls everything outside Zagreb (including Split and Rijeka and Osijek) a "town". And I assure you, no professional translator would translate "veliki grad" as "large city" - precisely because the term "veliki grad" was legislators' way of circumventing the fact that Croatian language does not have the distinction the target language (English) has. If there are "large cities" then there must be "small cities" and if every urban settlement is thus a "city" then it seems Croatia is the only place on Earth where towns do not exist. And resortng to the "town" label only for settlements which "look urban" but aren't legally that sounds pretty arbitrary to me. Timbouctou (talk) 10:56, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe we should just go with the 2005 amendment which defines a city ("veliki grad") as anything urban with more than 35,000 people (there are 17 of those in Croatia). If a county has one or more its template will still say "Cities and towns" and if it doesn't then it's just "towns". Same for infobox settlement. Timbouctou (talk) 13:30, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah I know. While it is true that the terms "urban" and "rural" would seem like our invention since official terminology does not use them, we are probably entitled to simplify things for readers, at least in navigation boxes. We could explain what we mean by that via wikilinking "Urban" to some dedicated article such as List of cities in Croatia or "Rural" to Municipalities of Croatia. On the other hand, DZS uses the term town for everything except the City of Zagreb [1],Article 22, so if we are to follow their designations then everything urban outside Zagreb is officially a "town" in English. Timbouctou (talk) 13:14, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- There's this source too.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:55, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I wasn't planning on tinkering with infobox settlement but it sounds like a good idea I'd gladly support. I suppose that would also include renaming Category:Cities and towns in Croatia and Category:Municipalities of Croatia then. I'm not sure if this would constitute WP:OR or WP:V though. Timbouctou (talk) 12:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- So would this result in changes to Infobox settlement settlement_type variables, to say "Urban municipality" and "Rural municipality", respectively? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:54, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Battle of Vukovar featured article nomination
Thank you for your recent interest in Battle of Vukovar. I have nominated the article for featured status with the aim of getting it to that position by 18 November, the 20th anniversary of the battle. You are very welcome to contribute to the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Vukovar/archive1. Prioryman (talk) 00:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Further to your question at #en-wikipedia-help
I don't think that there is a clear, fast solution. User:Prioryman's suggestion of writing to the Croatian MOD might need to be expanded to some other countries for the JNA logo. Someone from the former Yugoslavia area might also be able to help, try asking around Wikipedia:Croatian Wikipedians' notice board or Wikipedia:Serbian Wikipedians' notice board and the other relevant noticeboards/ projects. Sorry I can't be of more help. --Mrmatiko (talk) 10:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
The lead sentence at Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) instructs how to best deal with fictional characters, in its recognizing (just as you did) that there is no specific guideline for such and in its advising that until there is, editors should see other relevant policies and guidelines in order to determine which fiction-related articles are appropriate for inclusion on Wikipedia. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 23:12, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Timbouctou (talk) 10:28, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- There have been MANY efforts to write provisions for fictional elements (characters), but they have failed with consesnsus deferring to existing guidelines and policies. If a fictional element or character is described in enough depth in reliable secondary sources, we'd have a meeting of WP:V and WP:GNG. So even without a specific guideline, we have decent article on fictional elements such as Light sabers and the Millenium Falcon and fictional characters such as James T. Kirk and Luke Skywalker. Its all in the coverage.Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 01:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Zašto mi stalno mijenjaš sastav Širokog Brijega sa igračima koji su igrali u 7. mjesecu. To je stari, od tada je bilo puno promjena? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikinukuapua (talk • contribs) 08:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Article importance assessment drive...
Whoa! I was this close to raising an issue with the WP 1.0 bot, because it looked like it was almost 100 articles off, and noone is assessing that many articles a day... :-) GregorB (talk) 20:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- All in a day's work ;-) Mind you, 99% of everything I assessed received a low importance rating. It would sure be easier to keep them in check if WP:CRO templates were marked "low importance" (and "stub") by default, requiring manual input only for quality/importance upgrades. Speaking of which, if one wanted to adapt WP:Germany's version of the table depicting importance scale, where would one paste it at WP:CRO project's page? Should I just put it on talk page until we find a better place for it? Timbouctou (talk) 20:21, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- From time to time I assess a couple of articles, and usually it's "low" because these are easy to pick: villages, barely notable films and such. Yeah, it's a chore, but in this case occasional (or semi-permanent, to be honest) backlogs don't really hurt either...
- Well, the only proper place for the table is surely Wikipedia:WikiProject Croatia/Assessment, i.e. the assessment subpage (currently used for something slightly different, but this is easily fixable). Maybe the time to introduce it has come... I'm not sure myself, the project might offer an answer. GregorB (talk) 20:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Just noticed you tried to add the quality scale... I've wrapped it in <noinclude>, which prevents it from messing up the main page. Not really a solution - ideally the assessment page and what is displayed in the Assessment frame should be entirely different things - but it works, kind of. GregorB (talk) 09:53, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Re: Maps in infobox settlement
There's an intermediate template that you'd have to create, or use a parameter of the existing Template:Location map Croatia. If the coordinates match, the latter could work. But, I don't know offhand if and how this extra parameter fits into Template:Infobox settlement parameters. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 22:04, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Henlein
I found out that while with Građanski Zagreb, the Austrian Karl Henlein was actually a coach/player. He is former Austrian international. Here (3rd paragraph) is says that Gradjanski had 2 Austrian internationals, refering to Henlein and probably Rupec. That makes me doubt if Jaroslav Šifer (Schiffer) ever got to play with Austria, as he played in this same period as well in the club, thus, if Sifer was Austrian international, they would have been 3, and not 2, as mentioned. All sources say that J. Šifer was only Yugoslav international, but the only source claimng he played for Austria, that I know, is RSSSF. Any ideas? FkpCascais (talk) 21:02, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
HČSP
Well, I'm sorry that I reverted all of the info, but some of it was either unsourced or non-neutral. I edited the page again, so let me know what do you think. HeadlessMaster (talk) 17:46, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi Timbouctou. I was wondering if you would be able to use the Football Lexicon to source any of the remaining unsourced terms? They're all tagged with [citation needed], and last time I counted there are about 20 unsourced entries left. I've been trying to cut that down myself, but a lot of the remaining ones are phrases that might be difficult to source the meaning of from anywhere other than a book dedicated to football terminology. For instance, it's easy to find references to layoff and through ball online, but difficult to find anywhere that actually says what they are. —WFC— 17:50, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Battle of Vukovar featured article nomination redux
Please note that I've renominated Battle of Vukovar for featured article status. You're very welcome to contribute to the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Vukovar/archive2. Prioryman (talk) 21:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
Referencing Croatia
Hi! I've expanded and referenced a part of the Croatia article, and by now only the "History" section (minus the last subsection thereof) remains to be referenced. Once that's done, I'd like to redo the lead to have a summary of the entire article in it per WP:LEAD. Since you edited the section at hand (along with many others) I thought to let you know. How about we co-nominate the article sometime next week, when the references and lead are in place, for WP:GAN?--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:04, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've noticed the huge work you've done recently and my hats off to you. However, I'm not sure it is ready for GAN yet. The prose needs to be condensed a bit and the ratio of dry statistics vs. flowing prose should be improved in favour of the latter, as some sections are tiresome to read (for example, take the culture section which has too many numbers IMO). I had tried reducing the history part section by section but I didn't get around to doing the earliest (Pre-history and Antiquity) and the latest (Modern Croatia) sections. These may need another pass through. We could also use a section on Etymology. In a nutshell, it still has lots of room for improvement, but if you want to have a go at GAN I'll be happy to lend a hand. I'll get on referencing History for starters, we could be ready for a formal nomination in a week or so. Again, great work so far, keep it up. Timbouctou (talk) 13:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree the article may be "overwritten" in some aspects, but I'd still leave further trimming to be performed during GAN review if necessary - moving any excess material to linked articles. I also agree there's quite a lot of stats, but a similar level of statistics is present in Germany which is an FA therefore I added them modeling the section on the FA article - which is not to say that your impression isn't correct one. Again, if that becomes an issue during a GAN review, the detailed version may be moved to Culture of Croatia or elsewhere where appropriate and replaced with a summary passage. As far as the "Modern Croatia" is concerned it seems fine to me, but the "Pre-history and Antiquity" does feel a bit odd. The "Etymology" isn't there, true, but would it be better to have a separate super-short section on that as in case of Germany or position it as "History" section introductory text? Anyway I'll prepare it in the sandbox and move it in when it's ready. On a final note - the article right now contains a mix of US and British English spelling and one should be chosen. I don't have any preference, but we should make a choice before the article is a GAN or before a copyedit or proofreading is requested.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:49, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- About etymology, I remember reading some guidelines at WP:COUNTRIES which said that etymology is a good thing to start the article with, but that's not set in stone of course. Since I think expanding the earliest history section might prove to be difficult we can alternatively mention it in there. I don't have a strong opinion about the variety of English to be used. I'd personally prefer BE but if others are more comfortable with AmE I'd be fine with that. Maybe you should raise the issue at the article's talk page and get a wider consensus, so that the {{British English}} or {{American English}} template could be placed on top. Timbouctou (talk) 14:16, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the pointer. Indeed WP:COUNTRIES says etymology goes into "History" section, so the first subsection may be the place. How about transforming the first subsection (simply removing the heading) into introductory passages outlining etymology, prehistoric and antiquity context of the area and mentioning the move from White Croatia as none of those (apart etymology) are strictly history of Croatia but a context and no simple heading could be accurate? I'm confident the etymology passage will be ready today, so I'll insert it there. I'll bring up the AE/BE in the talk page as suggested.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm against removing the heading. The text following a level-2 header which itself contains level-3 headers below usually serves as summary of all lvl-3 content below so this solution would be awkward. Re-wording the section title is a much better option even though the different material makes it difficult to find an accurate tile. How about simply "Early history"? That's general enough to chronologically include pre-historic settlements in present-day Croatia, Roman and Greek colonization, the migration of Croats, and the etymology of the term. This could serve as a logical introduction to the following section, Medieval Croatia, which picks up at circa 10th century AD. Timbouctou (talk) 21:22, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the pointer. Indeed WP:COUNTRIES says etymology goes into "History" section, so the first subsection may be the place. How about transforming the first subsection (simply removing the heading) into introductory passages outlining etymology, prehistoric and antiquity context of the area and mentioning the move from White Croatia as none of those (apart etymology) are strictly history of Croatia but a context and no simple heading could be accurate? I'm confident the etymology passage will be ready today, so I'll insert it there. I'll bring up the AE/BE in the talk page as suggested.--Tomobe03 (talk) 14:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- About etymology, I remember reading some guidelines at WP:COUNTRIES which said that etymology is a good thing to start the article with, but that's not set in stone of course. Since I think expanding the earliest history section might prove to be difficult we can alternatively mention it in there. I don't have a strong opinion about the variety of English to be used. I'd personally prefer BE but if others are more comfortable with AmE I'd be fine with that. Maybe you should raise the issue at the article's talk page and get a wider consensus, so that the {{British English}} or {{American English}} template could be placed on top. Timbouctou (talk) 14:16, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree the article may be "overwritten" in some aspects, but I'd still leave further trimming to be performed during GAN review if necessary - moving any excess material to linked articles. I also agree there's quite a lot of stats, but a similar level of statistics is present in Germany which is an FA therefore I added them modeling the section on the FA article - which is not to say that your impression isn't correct one. Again, if that becomes an issue during a GAN review, the detailed version may be moved to Culture of Croatia or elsewhere where appropriate and replaced with a summary passage. As far as the "Modern Croatia" is concerned it seems fine to me, but the "Pre-history and Antiquity" does feel a bit odd. The "Etymology" isn't there, true, but would it be better to have a separate super-short section on that as in case of Germany or position it as "History" section introductory text? Anyway I'll prepare it in the sandbox and move it in when it's ready. On a final note - the article right now contains a mix of US and British English spelling and one should be chosen. I don't have any preference, but we should make a choice before the article is a GAN or before a copyedit or proofreading is requested.--Tomobe03 (talk) 13:49, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Gradjanski coaches
This book seems to say that an Austrian coach Toni Ringer was a coach of Gradjanski Zagreb in 1926. Just to let you know... FkpCascais (talk) 02:23, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Re: PNG to SVG logos
You should first talk to them, tell them to fix it. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:03, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Player positions
Well, the info is to precise the role in the last year or two. For instance, Danijel Pranjić is not a winger for a few years now, Eduardo being presented as a "forward" is not correct, cause he only plays as a winger or striker. Igor Bišćan is now described as central defender, when he finishes his career it could be added he was a central midfielder too. It was a thought, if you think it's over-describing, I say: - Cool, no problem, it's all relative. But I see some players have detailed info, some don't - so i just hope there is an exact rule against my "miscondust". ;) Much respect m8. N1cky (talk)
October 2011
Wrote a post on ANI that concerns you [2]. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 14:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
ciao
ciao, I am Italian and I consider DIREKTOR a professional titoist activist of a Croat party but you can report him in ANI — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.206.126.34 (talk) 16:31, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
This is your only warning; if you make personal attacks on other people again, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Comment on content, not on other contributors or people. Your persistence in continuing the feud with DIREKTOR is not helpful to the encyclopedia. Your inclusion of TParis in your uncivil remarks is not helpful either. Distance yourself, or sanctions may ensue. KillerChihuahua?!? 21:34, 21 October 2011 (UTC)