Storm Rider (talk | contribs) →Personal attack?: moving conversation to editor's to keep the thread constant |
Jeffrey Vernon Merkey (talk | contribs) |
||
(One intermediate revision by the same user not shown) | |||
Line 372: | Line 372: | ||
Thanks for your efforts on "[[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|the page]]". It's frustrating dealing with twits, but at least you are given the consolation that eventually the twit might actually develop in WP and end up agreeing with you on the issues he used to be a twit about. -[[User:Sesmith|SESmith]] 09:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
Thanks for your efforts on "[[The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints|the page]]". It's frustrating dealing with twits, but at least you are given the consolation that eventually the twit might actually develop in WP and end up agreeing with you on the issues he used to be a twit about. -[[User:Sesmith|SESmith]] 09:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC) |
||
==[[WP:COI]]== |
|||
"'''The doctrine of the church comes first rather than nondoctrinal statements by individuals.'''" |
|||
This statement violates [[WP:COI]]. POV push somewhere else. [[User:Jeffrey Vernon Merkey|Jeffrey Vernon Merkey]] 04:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:00, 10 June 2007
Archives |
---|
Irrelevant polemics
The kind of crap you posted at Talk:Temple garment is irrelevant and actively harmful toward working on the encyclopedia. This is not a chat forum. Please, if that's how you're going to be, just stay away from that article. Things work better when editors are civilized and stay on topic. Friday (talk) 19:06, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- Your comment on my page was interesting. I happen to disagree with you. When you go out of your way to make a comment to someone with whom you disagree, me for example, and you so blatantly overlook complete stupidity of those with whom you agree leads me to think you might not be the best judge in this situation. For Wikipedia to succeed and for individual editors to excel, one must be able to work with those who disagree with our particular viewpoint. One must come to an understanding of what is appropriate and what is not.
- Your ignoring Duke53's comment of calling a vagina a pussy and also stating that "we all just need to live with it" is a prime example of your lack of judgement. Instead of leaving a comment on his talk page (a person who agrees with your position), you chose to leave a comment on my page and calling my comments "crap". I guess the old adage of beauty being in the eye of the beholder is apropos in this instance. I encourage you to reflect on your actions, come to understand that to judge others is fine, but better yet is to learn to judge from a principaled position and not just those with whom you disagree. In doing so, you will have learned wisdom and fairness. Others might even come to respect you as a fellow editor.
- In closing, I will continue to edit those articles that are of interest to me and where I can offer the most expertise. This article is one of them. Cheeers. Storm Rider (talk) 20:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
blocking the IP
I understand your concern. However, I do not see the need to block an IP that has not edited for over 2 hours and not vandalized since the last warning. Additionally, the 1-week block was on October 27, not November 27. However, if the IP does vandalize again, I will block it for another week. You can also ask some other administrators what they think. Academic Challenger 07:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Tone
Storm Rider, comments like this have a passive-aggressive tone and just inflame things further. I wonder if you are letting your emotions drive your discussion style too much. I don't mean to lecture you but I'm sure you wouldn't want to post things that you'd later regret or that would have adverse consequences for the things you care about. Of course, if you have any similar feedback for me I welcome your comments. Best wishes, alanyst /talk/ 03:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- I admittedly have a difficult time with comments that are without logic, backwards, and just plain false. It is impossible for something to be the opposite of itself. I am not sure how best to handle these type of edits. I suspect the best way is just quit feeding the trolls. There is much wisdom in such a statement, but lately I have noticed a surprising coincidence where no comment becomes interpreted as acceptance of the statement as fact. Of course this mindset can easily turn into a need to respond to everything perceived as negative, which I don't think is necessary. My objective is to determine the stage most important in which to take a stand; Village pump seems like a stage that would have the most impact on the community at large. Do you think it would be better to just ignore those types of comments, those that are obviously lacking in thought, and move on? Your comments are appreciated and I can use some direction in this regard. Storm Rider (talk) 04:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm certainly no paragon in this regard, but I'll share my thoughts. First off, in this particular case, I read Duke53's response to Visorstuff differently than I think you did. To me, it seemed that Duke53 took Visorstuff's post to mean that the IP address is owned by Property Reserve, not Intellectual Reserve, and so Duke53 contradicted that by pointing out the WHOIS report. I think you interpreted Visorstuff's comment differently, in that the IP address is assigned to Property Reserve internally but owned by Intellectual Reserve. With that mindset, Duke53's reply just seems like being contrary purely for the sake of it, without any sort of legitimate rebuttal of fact. (Kind of like: "The sky is blue." "You're wrong, this site clearly says the sky is blue.") And so out of annoyance, you responded. I was taken aback by your response because I didn't have the same perception as you, but also because of the emotion communicated in it that seemed disproportionate to the topic.
That's my take on this specific instance. More generally, here are some random thoughts, maxims, whatever about these sorts of online discussions.
- Don't post out of negative emotion; post out of love even (or especially) for your adversary, while still remaining true to fact, policy, and your principles. This is hard.
- Even when you feel your position is generally misunderstood, the larger community will usually arrive at a tolerable resolution of a dispute if given the chance. Most editors reading the discussion (which are more than just those participating) are rational, and can quickly discern who in the conversation is being thoughtful and logical, or who is simply agitating and pushing or defending an agenda. Antagonistic editors quickly lose influence in the community; people can see right through the facades they try to erect. Let that happen.
- Calmly explain your position, frankly admitting points that are weak, that you are uncertain about, or that others in good faith can disagree with. Be completely honest with yourself and then let others see it. Also be honest about others' valid points and legitimate actions, even if it's painful to admit it.
- Sarcasm is effective only in sparing quantities and at infrequent intervals. (The appropriate response to this is: "Yeah, right." =)
- Silence in the face of a challenge can sometimes be interpreted as capitulation, but it can also be interpreted as wise restraint and consideration for the community.
- Amass as much "benefit of the doubt" as you possibly can contain and then be extraordinarily generous with it. Ask questions to verify assumptions you're making about another person's reasoning or motivations before challenging them. Give them multiple chances to retract, elaborate, or alternatively re-assert their position, until there's no room for reasonable doubt as to what that is. Even for editors with whom you have had past conflict, let the Doubt-O-Meter reset somewhat (even if not all the way) in new encounters with those people. People can change, even from day to day or depending on what the topic at hand is.
Sorry for the voluminous discourse, but you asked for it! :) I'd like to reiterate that I'm a better preacher than practitioner, so don't hesitate to quote any of this back at me or come up with new ones applicable to my own behavior anytime. Cheers, alanyst /talk/ 05:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Addendum: I don't mean to imply that all of the points above apply to you. You are the only one here who can judge that, naturally. alanyst /talk/ 05:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The Mythology Category
Although i've never liked how Mythology has that double definition that the lay reader is unlikely to know about, I don't see how, after reading the article, a person is going to see that category and say "Ah, everything in this article was fake, good to know", since I suspect a name such as "Christian mythology" is more likely to elicit curiosity, resulting in them clicking on it, and seeing the note about the double definition. The article does not present Jesus as a mythical figure, and so therefore, I think it would be very uncommon indeed for someone's impression of the subject to be adversly affected by reading "Christian mythology" as a category at the bottom. Though it would be nice if a better word for that category existed. Homestarmy 16:39, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Request for Mediation
Happy holidays !
You may want to consider endorsing this petition: User_talk:Friday#Petition_to_recall_User:Friday_from_the_position_of_admin. StuRat 12:07, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Seer Stones in Mormonism
Hi Storm Rider: I have some concerns with your restoration of deleted material in Seer stones in Mormonism. The person who deleted that material was the author of it, and he did so because he recognized that it was incorrectly placed in the middle of a paragraph, literally mid-thought. Further, it's a mess.
I'm not opposed to this type of material in the article, but it can't be plopped wherever, and it needs some serious reworking. Perhaps another section within the article could be created where differences between the Mormon and Hebrew Urim and thummim could be discussed. I'm not sure, however, if even this has a place within this article (which is focused on Mormonism and seer stones) and when this information is adequately covered within the intro to Urim and Thummim where it states that: "According to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they were also used to translate ancient manuscripts; however, their recorded use by Joseph Smith, Jr. is not in conjunction with their recorded historical use by the Hebrews."
My concern is that the current configuration is a prescriptive approach, rather than descriptive. No article should say "this is right" and "this is wrong"--it should only report facts--and as of right now, it is failing to do so effectively. I am going to add a section on differences; perhaps some of the material can be salvaged there. You might also want to check out: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seer stones and Urim Thummim. Regards, --Rojerts 16:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- I agree completely that articles should only be descriptive; Wikipedia does not state what is "true" or "right", but only what is believed or what was reported to have happened.
- There is confusion within much of what is written about Mormon history between the Urim and Thummim and Seer stones. Joseph Smith was reported to have used both. The issue of seer stones is a particularly favorite subject in anti-Mormon literature so it often can hit a sensitive nerve with LDS that are not completely familiar with history. Conversely, others feel Joseph carried around a peep stone constantly and was only familiar with the workings of magic to ensure that we might understand his religion is based upon the works of Satan. It is an interesting dichotomy.
- It may be that a single sentence is enough, but I would ask that we study it further. The renamed article limits the subject to seer stones and that should now be the driving subject. I will return later today and look at the article again. If it has not been already edited let's align the paragraphs more appropriately. --Storm Rider (talk) 18:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- I agree regarding the apprehension many LDS have with the seer stone subject--all too often, "anti" material will include so much that is spurious that when it does have historical fact (such as the seer stone translation of the BoM), LDS members refuse to accept it. And, it doesn't help that much of LDS history is given in a prescriptive manner where any topic that might shake one's faith is left out. David Whitmer's 1887 account is all but unknown among most LDS members, wherein he states that Joseph Smith "would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat...."
- I look forward to your comments. Regards,--Rojerts 19:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- The translation of the Book of Mormon is an interesting subject. Joseph said very little about it and all we have is second hand informtion such as what you stated. It appears that Joseph may have used the U&T, the seer stone(s), or nothing all for the transaltion process. However, it has always puzzeled me that Joseph would receive an item from God specifically to be used for translation and he would turn around and use a seer stone. Simply using nothing makes more sense to me, but even then the U&T was not an insignificant item to be put aside. There are some other thoughts, but we can talk about those later. It does make me question the second-hand stories, but they need to be stated. Cheers. --Storm Rider (talk) 20:48, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- Side note- sorry to butt in. It is interesting to look at when he used each of the specific items - the U&T was to receive revelation and for translation, it was used for translation, but remember that smith had them taken from him and had to rely on other means for a time - later he had only them to rely on. In addition, smith used one stone (seerstone) or another stone(s) (the U&T) for the same thing - in this case, each was being used as a urim and thummin per the definition. Finally, smith was familiar with using the seer stone - and the U&T according to mother smith opened his views to much more than the book of mormon translation -which could have been distracting during the translation process (hense the use of a hat at times). And using the priesthood as context, neither device was used much after the restoration of the priesthood, which led to a stonger companionship of revelation and the spirit. Just some context of my own reading. -Visorstuff 20:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- The revision looks good, although I question the edits in the last paragraph of the section "Other Seer Stones in Mormonism." If you get a chance, could you justify the changes? Thanks!--Rojerts 01:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Kidnapping
Yep. Thanks for remarking on it. Gwen Gale 06:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Jesus Blanking
Sorry! I was just testing the article. Alright? Im only new.
Lost Book Edits
Thanks. If your interested in what I am saying, check out these links that I have been digging up for the last thirty minutes. [1] [2] [3] [4] Solon Olrek 19:08, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Jesus and being PC
I'm contacting you personally because I wanted to explain a little further, while I acknowledge this has little to do with the ongoing discussion at talk:Jesus. All cultures/religions have mythologies, meaning "A body or collection of myths belonging to a people and addressing their origin, history, deities, ancestors, and heroes." There is the implication in the word "mythology" that the stories in question are legendary, pseudo-historical, or even fictitious, and rightly so. Now it offends some Christians when you suggest that women cannot give birth without sexual intercourse or IVF, it offends them if you tell them men cannot walk on water, and that you cannot snap your fingers and turn water into wine, or that you cannot feed 4000/5000 people with a small basket of bread and fish. But how is this any different from saying that Krishna did not lift up a mountain with his pinky when he was a child, or that a global flood never occurred, or that Muhammad did not split the moon, or that Zoroaster did not fight Daēvas, or that the Bab did not predict the coming of Bahá'u'lláh, etc. It is a double standard to call a body of non-western, often time supernatural, religious stories about cultural history, "mythology", but not do the same thing for Christian stories. We are being politically correct because some Christians are offended by suggesting they simply believe "fairy tales" (when 'myth' does not necessarily have to mean that). All that said, I will admit that this is an issue bigger than wikipedia. It is part of our language and culture to believe those crazy stories in the Vedas and the Iliad/Odyssey are myths, but those crazy stories in the bible are honest to goodness theology (or whatever analog you want to call it). Objectively speaking, they serve the same cultural purpose, and can both be classified as mythologies. The desire to shy away from that term only comes from fear of offending certain Christians. All that said, I agree that we shouldn't offend Christians here at wikipedia, but I'm not going to lie about being PC in this matter. While I may partially agree with Mcorazao's motives, I do not believe wikipedia is the platform to encourage Christian self-examination by means of imposing a controversial category. Sorry for the rant.--Andrew c 22:24, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for your reply. I understand completely what you are saying, and I think our positions are awfully close. I just personally believe that an objective outsider may classify the whole bible as a specific definition of 'mythology', along with the whole Rig Veda, while individual practitioners of these religions may object, on the basis of another specific definition of 'mythology'. The definition you allude to, I consider not exactly 'mythology' per se, but more like legendary tales or folklore. But again, because the word mythology is ambiguous on top of being controversial I do nto advocate it's use in this context (of course). Thanks again for the brainfood. -Andrew c 01:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I would say a myth is any legend that didn't really happen. Obviously "history" ( including legends) is either true or false. I believe that all those non-christian legends are myths. Are the Cristian legends of miracles impossible? Sort of. Thats kind of the point! A miracle is anything that truly defies the laws of physics. They ARE impossible for anyone except God. Zantaggerung 15:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks!
Good to hear from you. I'll drop by and take a look within a day or two — my editing will be somewhat sporadic while I'm back (because it's mostly a diversion from a job search), but I'll get there sooner or later.
I hope things are going well with you. Tijuana Brass 08:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- I looked over the article some. It doesn't seem at hotly contested as other LDS related ones are — has it quieted down some? In any case, I had some suggestions which I posted at Talk:Golden Plates that it'd be good to have your input on. Tijuana Brass 23:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Continued from BoM discussion
What I was saying is: there are religions like the nation of Islam which claim history that is completely unsubstiated, and on this encyclopedia is labeled as pseudohistory. Why does Mormon pseudohistory get expemted from it? And I can provide information on the societies of ancient America, try me, though I am not proffesional, this is my faviorte thing in history to study. Even if it is pseudohistory, that shouldn't change your belifs, you have that "burning in your bossum" and your "testimoney" that is more then adequetly making the book of Mormon true for you. This does not make it true in reality by any stretch of the imagination, but you can belive whatever you want. There are wackos that belive that the white race was created by a man named "Yakub" though they don't respect me, I respect them (though I am glad that they are not present here in SLovakia). My point is, you can belive this, but it has no historical value. This is not a POV, it is a fact that stands the historical value of the book of Mormon from a purely historical value is zero, none what so ever. That is why it should be tagged as such, or if we are going to get into this objective truth nonsense the category of pseudohistory should be done away with. Why should we stop at allowing this to be passed off as history? I think that this is a true NPOV, looking at only the facts, and not just at the fact that there are enough people with a "burining in their bossum" that edit this website to use that as evidence for it being treated differently then other pseudohistory. This is a true NPOV. --Jorbian 19:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Science can be intertwined with religon. As for your comments that it cannot be proven archeolgoicaly that Jesus healed the sick and rose on the third day, there are alot of things in the Bible that can be proven. For example, it can be proven that Babylon and Assyria did at one point conquer Israel and deport its inhabitents, because the records of both corroberate the stroy. It can be proven that a census was taken in Judea a few years prior to Qunius's governing of Syria. It can be proven very easily. It can be proven that Jesus was cruficied. The fact that Jesus existed cannot even be accurately refuted. It can also be proven that Judas Maccabee and his brother existed. The point I am making is that the Bible is correct on so many things that it can be considered a book of history as well as religion. The same cannot be said of the book of Mormon. And I was not saying that truth is reletive, that is a very foolish belif to hold, I was merely stating that you have a right to belive whatever you wish to be absolute truth (which in itself does not make it truth.) And the reason that I am not trying to do this with the Bible and Quran is because of the fact that: the Bible is well proven by existing evidence and so much of the Quran (as far as the history goes) is lifed from the Bible that I am fairly confident that they are both good historical sources. 40% of the cities mentioed in the bible are known to have existed, compare that with 0% in the book of Mormon.
My original point is that there is a double standard. Why does the NoI's fake history get different treatement then that LDS's? --Jorbian 15:19, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I didn't realize that you had continued your conversation elsewhere. Have you had a chance to check out my Book of Mormon "pseudohistory" discussion comment? I believe that there is a way to remain neutral without playing the faith v. evidence card. Comment is below. Regards--Rojerts 20:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Wow. There are a whole lot of exclamation marks being thrown around here, so I hesitate to enter. But, I think I have something worth offering. Religious Studies hold that sacred books are neither history or pseudohistory.
- For example, if we look at the Bible, we find several disputed areas where there is no historical evidence to back up its time line or facts, especially within the first 12 chapters of Genesis--but even the Exodus is troublesome in terms of history. Yet it is still contextually meaningful regardless of what can or can't be dug up to verify the event. These types of books are written with less emphasis on historical fact, and more upon instilling faith and showing God's hand at work among his people. In Religious Studies, this is called a Sacred history. The Bible, Book of Mormon, and the story of Yakub would all fall under this category.
- A Sacred history article on Wikipedia has not yet been written. I am happy to contribute to it, and welcome participation. What are your thoughts? Is a Sacred history tag for this article and others (versus either a history or pseudohistory tag) an acceptable move? Regards,--Rojerts 16:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- I have no problem at all with this category. I have a predisposition to not favor an ever-increasing number of categories to accomdate progressively smaller and smaller groups. The things to consider are: What does this category offer that would be helpful to readers? Is this category already served by another category that is currently not being used fully? Are we creating something useful to all or just a small minority of readers i.e. someone with a axe to grind? I am sure that others have created better criteria, but these are some of the things that spring immediately to mind. I will say that if a new category is needed, this one is infinitely better than that offered by Jorbian. Cheers. --Storm Rider (talk) 06:42, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Bolam
Haha I didn't notice someone had slipped that one in there. Gwen Gale 21:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Hey, Storm Rider, on the Irene Craigmile Bolam article, how would you feel about adding a sentence that would refer to Joe Klaas' book as pseudohistory? Every so often someone will write a book or publish an article on some historical figure making unsubstantiated claims--this, unfortunately, is another case of that. Thoughts? ProfessorPaul 05:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- I am probably more careful than others on labeling things as pseudohistory. I think it would be best to add a referenced statement from an expert that called the book pseudohistory; does that sound appropriate to you? --Storm Rider (talk) 05:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, it does. I will look and see if such a statement from an expert does exist; if so, a one sentence statement with a a reliable source and link should do it fine. Thank you. ProfessorPaul 05:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- I am probably more careful than others on labeling things as pseudohistory. I think it would be best to add a referenced statement from an expert that called the book pseudohistory; does that sound appropriate to you? --Storm Rider (talk) 05:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Mormonism and Christianity
I just wanted to say that I think your approach in the recent discussions has been a shining example of true Christianity. 74s181 12:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks
I just wanted to let you know, it's been really good having you and 74s181 on the Mormonism and Christianity page. You've made some excellent contributions and it's been nice to have some fellow LDS folks supporting eachother in the work that we're doing there. I'm posting the same message to 74s181's page... Keep it up!Mpschmitt1 02:25, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
- I've worked with Storm Rider, Tom Hawstrom, Visorstuff and others for years now, and they've earned my respect. That's why I expect that eventually they'll explain to you youngsters by example, how it's possible to be a good Mormon and a good Wikipedian. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 05:44, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Mormonism and Jesus as extra-terrestrial from Pleiades star cluster
I am in the process of addressing your referencing concerns on Talk:Mormonism --24.57.157.81 03:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I have rewritten it. I hope it is now more congenial and conducive to discussion. I am sincere in my attempts to learn about LDS, though I'm going to be blunt and frank, as an encyclopedist should be. Remember that most of what I know about LDS is based on anti-LDS literature I find on the Internet (it being difficult to find LDS literature which answers their points succinctly and without religious ornamentation). --24.57.157.81 03:19, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
- Bluntness and frankness is not discouraged on Wikipedia. However, I find the premise of your positiong interesting. You only read anti-Mormon literature...do you think it is not without religious "ornamentation"? Please be serious. ANTI anything is propaganda designed for a specific purpose. If you were really serious you would be studying Mormonism from Mormon sites; there are many of them. Tell me, if you wanted to learn how to make a watch would you go to the butcher to learn? The same is done for virtually everthing. If you want to learn about Buddism, study something that was printed by a Buddist. If you want to learn about Catholicism; study the catechism. This is not a novel principle, but it is certainly telling about who is attempting to learn. --Storm Rider (talk) 08:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Christianity (Nicene Creed)
I noticed you took part in the straw poll. Please visit the talk page to engage in the discussion, so we may build consensus. Vassyana 00:21, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Baptism for the dead
Your vote has helped baptism for the dead be selected as the March 2007 Mormon Collaboration of the Month. I look forward to working with you on the article. uriah923(talk) 19:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Nontrinitarian links
I understand your purpose in re-adding the links; however, let me explain my reasoning beyond the confines of the edit summary box.
- Since there is already an article on the Nontrinitarian viewpoint, it isn't necessary to devote considerable resources to this page. That's redundant, and also echoes the fact that some Nontrinitarians have been suggesting adding more arguments against the Trinity to this article.Why? A link to Nontrinitarian, and a summary that a minority disagree with the Trinitarian view is all that's necessary to say on the Trinity page.
- Additionally, it's unusual that this article had more Nontrinitarian links than Trinitarian ones... and also that this article had more Nontrinitarian links than the Nontrinitarian article (that is, until I moved the links from Trinity to Nontrinitarian.
- You say that both sides are needed to show balance, however, there is already a Nontrinitarian article to balance the viewpoint, and a link from Trinity to that page.Once again, it is redundant to devote more than a paragraph or two of space in the Trinity article to nontrinitarian views.
I believe it's unnecessary to include said links on both pages. Please feel free to share your thoughts with me, preferably on my talk page.--C.Logan 20:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- I view the two articles as a fork that really is not appropriate. However, in that there are two articles and editors are resistent to have a single artile given the length of each, it does make sense that the topics of both articles be the major respective focus. That does not mean however a a reader is getting a balanced article because they can seek out the other article. I think that is strongly against WIKI policy. Both articles should focus on their topic and give space, references, and links that support the opposing theology. We don't need to "cover up" the other side and neither position is harmed by a firm acknowledgement of opposing ideas. I do not wish to offend, but I really think this borders on censorship. We produce better articles when each articles stands on its own as balanced, if not we are only writing propaganda. Does this make sense to you? --Storm Rider (talk) 20:58, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- Censorship would be more of an issue if I were to have completely deleted this links from Wikiexistence... however, I just relocated them to their proper position within Wiki: in the article to which they lend support. I didn't delete the Nontrinitarian views section, which I believe is a sufficient bit of information regarding a dissenting viewpoint that has it's own page on which it's information can be relayed. Compare the Christianity article. It's fully apparent that there are about 4 billion or so people who don't agree with Christianity to varying degrees. The 2 articles, Criticism of Christianity and Criticism of the Bible, are briefly explained, and links are provided. However, the external links at the bottom of the page are solely Christian resources, not critical sites. Obviously, it would be very questionable to place the Islamic "Answering Christianity" link found on the Crit. of Christianity page in the links section of the Christianity page. Because the links that you support are polemical in nature, it would be better suited for the Nontrinitarian page, where such arguments are essential to the subject. If the Nontrin. article were short enough to warrant inclusion, than I would have no problem combining the articles and links.
- If someone is curious of something, they'll seek it out. I doubt that anyone who would be interested in learning Nontrinitarian reasoning would miss the little blue link under the section heading.
- I don't see it as censorship when a link to a 47kb page of dissenting views is presented with description in the middle of the article.--C.Logan 22:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
- Don't get too caught up in the semantics. The main point is the generally we do not allow forks on Wikipedia. If you want to balance the links do so (i.e. equalize the numbers of links so that one does not overshadow the other), but don't delete all of the links that are critical of a topic. --Storm Rider (talk) 08:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
- The article on Christianity has a small referral section devoted to Criticism of Christianity. Yet, there are no external links which deal in direct criticism of the topic. You'll find those at the Criticism of Christianity page, itself.
- Similarly, the Christianity article includes sections both regarding the Trinity and Nontrinitarianism. However, there are (again) no external links in direct reference to either of those topics. Those links can be found at their respective topic pages. Nor are there any links which are specifically concerning Criticism of the Bible, because (again) those links are found at that particular page. This is why Answering-Islam.org[5] will never be seen amongst the external links of the Islam article. It is a dissenting view, yes, and it will bring up good points of argument, but the Islam page is a page which focuses primarily on simple facts, rather than arguments. The Criticism of Islam page serves that purpose, and so you will find the aforementioned site linked there (that is, if Muslim readers cease with the constant deletion of information from the Criticism page).
- While it can be argued that Nontrinitarianism is not the same as a Criticism article, they are in essence the same. Nontrinitarianism is not so much a new belief system as it is a reformation of an old one, achieved by arguing away doctrines which are seen by the group as false (with the exception of Mormonism, as that's a more complicated case). Nontrinitarian sites are similarly much more often resources for polemics against orthodox Christian doctrines than they are community sites or general resources. The tone of the Nontrinitarianism article is nearly the same as that of an article focused on direct criticism, and it offers many thought-provoking points to the reader. As it is, I had made an attempt to improve both articles by curtailing what was out of place in one, and what was perfectly appropriate and supportive to another.--C.Logan 09:14, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Barnstar
The Original Barnstar | ||
Your hard work, civility and constant striving to improve Wikipedia is sincerely appreciated. Please know your efforts have not gone without notice. Vassyana 09:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC) |
Help with Christianity History?
Hi Storm Rider,
I found you via the Christianity article. I am currently working on the Nero article and was wondering if we could get some outside help on the section concerning Nero in Christian Tradition. Your help would be greatly appreciated!
Best regards,
Djma12 (talk) 19:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Civility
Storm Rider, this and this just aren't in keeping with WP:CIVIL. Please consider this a friendly warning to stay cool; I'm sure you wouldn't want to find yourself blocked as a result of incivility. (In case it sounds otherwise, this is not a threat, but an earnest caution.) Thanks, alanyst /talk/ 17:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Storm, believe me I know it can be hard sometimes but stay cool. You're a great editor and if someone is really getting under your skin, it's best to walk away and come back a bit later. WP:BACKLOG could always use the help if you need some distracting. ;o) G-d bless! Vassyana 18:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Vassyana, thank you for your advice and Alanyst for your warning. Sarcasm is one of the tools I use to express displeasure with edits I find below the standard of Wikipedia. Generally, if not exclusively, it is used for editors that have repeatedly proven themselves uncooperative; such is the case here. It is true that as editors of a public encyclopedia we encourage and accept editors of all levels of expertise to contribute to articles of their choosing. However, I will say that I am not too tolerant of editors that have proven beyond doubt that they are not interested in improving Wikipedia, but rather are insistent in using it as a personal blog to display their POV. They are a nuisance and are responsible for "burning out" too many fine editors that would contribute further if they did not have to contend with this unhealthy element. I reject this element within our editorial ranks. My opinion is they should be banned after repeatedly failing a trial period and forgotten.
- Please understand my comment was not an emotional outburst. The reason it smacked of sarcasm was because it was intended to be sarcastic and to warn the editor in question; nothing more, nothing less. However, the best advice is just ignore them; I fail to follow dictum as I should. I will strive to do better. Thanks again. --Storm Rider (talk) 04:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Smile :)
What are you?!!!
Seriously, what do you belive?
Do you follow a well known religion?
Do you belive that any religion will work?
Are you a Mormon?
( If so, I'd like to talk to you about Mormonism on my talk page)
Sometimes you seem to be a Mormon, sometimes not. . .
IT GETS CONFUSING!!!
Zantaggerung 15:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually, debating seeks to convince, not necessarily to prove.
Also you say you profess Mormon faith, but you also say you find truth in many other religions.
Do you mean basic truth?
Or do you mean, as you sort of conveyed, that you believe a hodge-podge of all sorts of religions?
Do you really believe in your reliigion as essintial, and the most important thing, or is it just a source of . . . "inspiration"?
By the way, I realized my unusual punctuation could be misread.
If it was thought rude I apoligize.
It wasn't intended to be.
Zantaggerung 00:23, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Becoming an Administrator
I'm thinking about nominating myself to become an administrator, and I seem to recall you are one, so I thought I would talk to you first.
The main reason I'm considering becoming an administrator is because I have been actively adding user warning templates to talk pages. I am assuming that if I were an administrator, I could block a user directly rather than going through the page to request blocking. I could also monitor the blocking request page and block users when appropriate.
Any thoughts? Thanks in advance! wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:22, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if you are too busy to respond, you missed it when I added this, or whatever. If I don't hear from you soon, I guess I will simply nominate myself for administrator. Let me know if you have any thoughts, suggestions, etc. wrp103 (Bill Pringle) 04:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
- Storm Rider, I just wanted to invite you to vote on the admin nomination of Bill Pringle here: Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Wrp103. COGDEN 20:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
You mention that you would have nominated Bill Pringle yourself if you were an administrator. I didn't realize you weren't one. I would nominate you except that I think I'm a pretty marginal admin myself who has not always gotten along well with others (in other words, I think my recommendation wouldn't be so great). That said, I think you'd be a great candidate but for having little experience in XfD. It's silly to me, but many folks oppose those who don't have enough Wikipedia space or XfD experience. Your mastery of wikipedia policies like WP:NPOV, WP:OR is demonstrated by your article-building.
What I'm getting at, is that you could probably be an admin too if you want (especially if you have some "need for the tools"). If you participated in some XfD discussions for a month or so I think you'd be a shoe-in. Cool Hand Luke 22:39, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- You are kind to think highly of my work; thank you. I think I am a better editor. As can be seen by my edit history, I strive for concensus. Because I focus on controversial pages it demands a lot of discussion on talk pages. At the present time I remain happy to just be an editor. As an aside, remember that I can be rather abrasive with editors that have no concept of WP:NPOV or who go out of their way to use Wikipedia as a personal soapbox. I do not excuse myself nor do I seek to be excused, rather I strive to learn how best to achieve cooperative effort. Thanks again; I am honored to have you offer. Cheers. --Storm Rider (talk) 00:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks
I haven't yet thanked you for your thoughtful posting on my talk page. I do so now: thanks. It's good to know that disagreements don't keep us from mutual respect, cooperation and understanding. Str1977 (smile back) 06:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Christianity
Storm, what do you think about the recent changes. I for my part am quite discontent with the bloating by adding off-section stuff (like baptism to the trinity section). Could you also comment on the issue raised in the "(Not so) Minor problems" section, at the bottom? Str1977 (smile back) 19:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Please let me know if I have crossed the line.
I know that Wikipedia has pretty strong guidelines on personal attacks and criticism, but I really do need to be slapped sometimes, so if you think my recent comments on baptism for the dead have crossed the line, please feel free to 'slap' me. 74s181 12:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed about 40 articles from the list after I started the CfD, and others have removed a further six. What I left in were those articles that clearly discussed a controversy, or made enough of a mention that they were "controversial" (and I still came up a little short, it seems). That being said, if the cat is not deleted, a close eye on content will be warranted, and you seem to have a better handle on it than I do (the reason I tackled the CfD is because I don't have a vested interest related to the subject, and could be more or less NPOV about the "controversiality" of the article content). MSJapan 03:58, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
- I really appreciate your work; thank you for doing a great job. My edits may have been too sloppy because the more I deleted the target category of Bigamist, the more frustrated I became with the senselessness of so much work. I would encourage you to reinstate those that you felt were appropriate for the category; I don't really have a horse in the race. I would not reverse your descision. cheers. --Storm Rider (talk) 04:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
incomprehensible drivel
Am I the one writing "incomprehensible drivel"? I really need you to tell me this if true. 74s181 03:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think so, 74. But you do provide an illustration of the fact that, personal attacks made with eyes closed are even worse, because then crap gets smeared on everyone's face who didn't see it coming. I feel bad that you were in the way. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your feedback, Storm Rider. I have great difficulty understanding human interaction in the 'real world', the electronic world levels the playing field somewhat but I still have difficulty from time to time. I still don't know what to think about Mark, I can't tell if he is sincere but I just don't understand him, or if he is not sincere. There is no way I can know the answer, so I am going to try to avoid interacting with him directly, at least for a while. Rest assured, the only thing I am going to 'give up' on is trying to help Mark understand what LDS believe.
Regarding my 'missionary' spirit. I did not serve a mission, I was going thru a rebelious period at that time of my life. So I don't have the experience that RMs have. For the several years I have been the Gospel Doctrine teacher in my ward, as a result I have been blessed with a true love of the scriptures and the doctrines they contain. This is new to me, although I have been active most of my life I never had that 'I KNOW' testimony until I had been teaching for a while. As a result I am an enthusiastic teacher.
There is something I'd like you to clarify if you would, you said "It is acceptable to discuss, share, and document what LDS believe here, but it is not the proper format to "teach". Did you mean that in the context of 'pearls before swine' or in the context of wiki-etiquitte? If the later, I understand the NPOV rules for article content, but I thought this didn't apply to talk pages. Or, maybe you're refering to things I've written in articles? Your comments would be appreciated, either here or on my talk page.
FYI, Mark has posted a comment on my talk page. He is being critical of someone, I'm not sure if it is you or me. I'm going to respond, but carefully. 74s181 19:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I got an edit conflict when I tried to post this, Mark is here as well. 74s181 19:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Topics vs people
I'll remind you because I think you mean well but you're frustrated, when you say things like "incomprehensible drivel. When conversing with others who repeatedly use the method I find it sad", etc.; or when you take the "get off your high horse" approach, WP:NPA is there to remind you that you're not helping. Even if you were right, it doesn't help; that's what User talk will help you work out. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 17:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- Mark, when you use parable to respond and then admit that it was intended to be incomprehensible it does little to assuage the perceptions of others that you are serious. I think you have dealt unfairly with 74 and I find that sad. You have an almost condescending attitude in some of your responses. If you are going to interact with him, do so honestly, directly, and with candor. He is sincere in his/her desire to interact with you, but it is too easy to doubt the same of you. --Storm Rider (talk) 22:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- Also, when I make a personal attack at someone, I will do so directly. However, when I am counseling another editor on how best to interact it is hardly a personl attack. It may be that you are wearing your feelings on your sleeve and are too willing to take offense at conversations where you are not involved. --Storm Rider (talk) 22:59, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
- When you make these attacks, as I see you are in the habit of doing from your edit history, acknowledge them as what they are and acknowledge the damage that they do, and go from there. Everyone slips up. It's the people who feel justified in doing this that get in trouble. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 02:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- Please see my comments to 74s181, which I hope will satisfactorily show you that, while I cannot agree with you in your estimation of my motives, and must sternly reject the manner in which you communicated that opinion, I do take your criticisms seriously. If you see what I'm saying there, I think you'll also see why we have every reason to put this behind us and move on to work together. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 03:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- Just so that you and I are clear; my conversation was directly with 74; you were certainly the topic because you were the offender. I remain adament that I did not attack you. Anytime you freely admit to "answering" in parables and then state it was meant to be incomprehensible and follow it with nonanswers, it is acceptable to call a spade a spade. My concern was strictly to encourage 74 not to give up in reaction to your less than helpful responses and interactions. I will caution you not to threaten me, which you have done repeatedly the last few days; I consider it your attempt to bully. It does not work with me. I encourage you to focus on the article and improving the information provided Wikipedia's readers. Cheers! --Storm Rider (talk) 02:59, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Please see my comments to 74s181, which I hope will satisfactorily show you that, while I cannot agree with you in your estimation of my motives, and must sternly reject the manner in which you communicated that opinion, I do take your criticisms seriously. If you see what I'm saying there, I think you'll also see why we have every reason to put this behind us and move on to work together. — Mark (Mkmcconn) ** 03:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- Please, both of you, please, just stop. Let's just try to move on, ok? 74s181 03:51, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Need advice
I was pretty discouraged Sunday night, I felt like it was my fault that you and Mark were arguing. I hope you weren't offended when I asked you to stop, I really do appreciate your help but I felt like it was turning into 'Gunfight at the WP corral', I didn't want to be the cause of that.
Anyway, the reason I am writing to you today is that I don't know what to do in this situation with Mark, it is still going on. I suspect he is watching, so it's hard to ask for advice on this, and it will be hard for you to respond without provoking him. So, please try to keep it friendly, but really, I don't know what to do. Is he right and I'm just wrong? Should I just ignore him, even on my talk page? 74s181 13:46, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- Don't worry about the conflict between Mark and me. He felt I was unjustified in my comments and I believe he had stepped over the line, which motivated my comments. However, I did not take his position personally and I do not think it prevents me in any way from working with him.
- Mark has been around and we have interacted for some time; never as much as on this article, but I have always respected him as an editor. I have known some really bad editors that frequent Wikipedia, but they are by far the exception. The vast majority are bright, perceptive, and cooperative; I believe Mark falls into this category. He is only an editor and not the editor. Focus on the article or other articles for a time. Also, Mark is just human with his own weaknesses. As with all of us, it is easy for him to see shortcomings in others and not see them in himself. He is just as zealous in his committment to his religion as you are. Sometimes I think he has a blind spot in this regard and can say things that are very offensive to LDS, but I am convinced that it is not personal and should be overlooked.
- When a topic/article is something you care about it is easy to become emotional or passionate. If you feel this is a topic that is too important to you, it may be best to edit elsewhere for a few days and then maybe come back to see what has happened. Nothing on Wikipedia is permanent. Articles are always in flux so you never miss anything.
- I will take a look at the article later today and see if there is anything I can do to provide assistance. Keep you chin up; Wikipedia is a wonderful adventure and worth our participation. --Storm Rider (talk) 15:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Extermination order
Partially due to your vote, Extermination order has been selected as the Mormon collaboration of the month. I look forward to working with you on the article. uriah923(talk) 19:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
APOSTASY IN QUESTION
Storm Rider, thanks for your comments. It should be noted that many of my edits derive from common knowledge about Evangelical Christianity & Judaism. I also noted that a substantial amount of your edits (along with others) don’t cite references either. As a scholarly community, it's assumed that we don’t need to cite every stroke of our pen - our professional knowledge serves as a reference itself in many cases. Our scholarly ethic depends on integrity. If our doctrine is in question, it can easily be verified through additional research by anyone.
In turn, what I'm seeing is the systematic elimination of contrary views. I’m convinced that even if I placed a reputable source (as I did on several edits), my words would be edited through bias.
Now for the Great Apostasy question. You raise a good point. How could there be 26,000 different Christian denominations if there was no "Apostasy"? Well, as a University Graduate student majoring in World Religions, I can assure you there's not nearly that many. By definition, the term "Evangelical" represents a single sect of Christianity. Evangelicalism has over 30 million adherents. Do the math...the population of the earth isn’t large enough for 26K "different" Christian faiths (30,000,000 people X 26,000 sects = 936 Billion people). Your proposal would be assuming that everyone alive on planet earth (and then some) are "Apostate Christians" - which we know isn’t true. Did I forget to add the additional 1 Billion Catholics – that would through your math further off the chart.
Conclusively, Mormons cite an "Apostasy" but have no historical evidence that it ever took place. Catholics KNOW the date and circumstances in which the Church was formed. Protestants KNOW the date and circumstances surrounding Martine Luther's "reformation". The notion of a "Great Apostasy" is like telling a patient they have Cancer but not specifying what type, how long they have to live or how to treat the disease. It's vague. Who would trust that doctor with their care? I would want specifics - Wouldn’t you?
- Mmirarchi, I moved your edit to the bottom of this page. When you make new edits it is best to go to the end of the page or section to enter your edit. We generally seek to keep the page in chronological order by topic; thus your new topic would always begin at the bottom of the page. In addition, you shoul always sign your edit by typing four "~" tildes; that will automatically sign and date your edit.
- Mormonism is a belief, your question is self-serving. When was the apostacy? It was Friay, at 3:16 p.m. 102 AD. The answer is irrelevant. We believe that over time the teachings of men were interjected into the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ. More importantly, these doctrines became central to Christianity and those things that Jesus taught took a secondary position. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity is not the litmus test for being called Christian by many Christian groups. The problem is that this issue was so secondary to other teachings it was never taught by Jesus Christ. Further, Jesus constantly taught repent and be baptized, but today baptism in many churches is a secondary issue that is little more than symbolic. However, Jesus taught it as central and He set the example by seeking it out for Himself while being perfect.
- Let's focus on what has become Orthodoxy. Ehrman and White, two among many academics who are non Mormon, now reveal how the first 300 years of Christianity was a disparate grouping of beliefs that focused on Jesus Christ; at best there was a proto-orthodoxy, but there was hardley "the" Christian Church. It took a pagan ruler, Constantine, to assemble men to vote on what is Christianity and what is true doctrine. Not one of those who attended professed to be a prophet or to be led by the Spirit; they all voted to state what is true. That process was never known in God's religion; it did not happen in the either the Old Testatment or the New.
- We view all of these things as signs of the Apostacy. I am also just speaking off the top of my head without attempting to reference any of it, but it suffices for a beginning to this conversation.
- Now about math; logic is probably not the best tool to use in this discussion. You should probably review New edition of World Christian Encyclopedia, which tabulated 10,000 distinct religious groups, including 33,830 Christian denominations[6]. This makes my 26,000 number pale in comparaison; however, that is a neutral source.
- Finally, do not give up on editing Wikipedia or be discouraged that your edits have been reverted. You must remember that Wikpedia has been around and those of us who have been here a while have gone through countless conversations and many of them on the same topic. Every few weeks we get a new editor who in their zeal is going to tell the world that Roman Catholicism is really the Great Whore of the Earth or that Mormonism is a major cult founded by a fraud and misguides people today. You will find entire articles on these subjects already. We do not promote writing religious tracts or witnessing by any group; it is not our purpose. Our purpose is to write informative articles that approach topics in as neutral position as possible. Each of us have something to provide. I would enourage you to take a breather and do some review of the talk pages; the more controversial the topic the larger the archives. You will see them at the top of every discussion page. As you read them you will quickly see that many of your ideas have been completely discussed. If nothing else it will help you understand how we cooperate as editors to produce great articles. Keep going, but do research first and then focus on discussing some of your controversial edits on the discussion page first. Cheers and I look forward to seeing more of your edits. --Storm Rider (talk) 17:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
--Storm Rider, Thanks again for your reply. I'll take your advice and use the talk pages to discuss significant changes from this point forward.
Although I cant find a way to agree with the proposal of "Apostasy" as defined by Mormonism, I appreciate your tact. I will concede however that orthodox Christianity has had a tumultuous past and Catholicism has marred the Christian reputation on several occasions. That aside, I still believe God is faithful and would preserve His Word regardless of mankind’s ignorance. As a believer in Judaism (although Yeshua is my Messiah & LORD), I'm compelled to side with my Gentile Christian brothers & sisters. Through Hebrew Scripture, we find a recurring theme - the LORD God of Isreal is Sovereign and not dependent on mankind to accomplish His purpose. In effect, that's the other side of the coin that should be discussed when we consider the effects of Apostasy. Would God allow such a degradation to last 1800 years before appearing to Joseph Smith? It's a valid question. God kept Christianity alive during the Roman prosecution under Nero and others - why not preserve it through an "apostasy"? Did He fail in this regard until the 19th century restoration? I don't believe so.
Stormrider, that raises another theological question for debate. Why then do you suppose the Hebrew / Christian Scriptures stand alone as a completed work? They start at the beginning of time and finish in the Book of Revelation - the end of time. Aren’t we living in between these two great events? Where then does the Book of Mormon fit into the equation - I honestly don’t know. It can’t come after Revelation and Scripture says nothing about another inspired Book (it actually states the opposite). So where do we place the Book of Mormon as stewards of the Tanakh & the Gospel? Mmirarchi 19:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Gold Plates
--Storm Rider, Thanks for your response. I'm getting to know how to use Wikipedia so I appreciate your help.
I just wanted to clarify something from our last conversation regarding Islam. Muslims actually have a few different versions of how Muhammad received his revelation of the Quran. It seems to depend greatly on what sect of Islam you belong to.
They can't seem to arrive on a concise conclusion for a specific origin. Study of the subject will reveal differences of opinion and theology. However, many scholars have accepted the story I described as the earliest belief among the Arabic tribes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmirarchi (talk • contribs)
- Mmirarch, I responded to your note at Talk:Mormonism. -Visorstuff 21:14, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Barnstar of High Culture
Molars
Best wishes to your molars and to their eventual recovery.
Thanks for your efforts on "the page". It's frustrating dealing with twits, but at least you are given the consolation that eventually the twit might actually develop in WP and end up agreeing with you on the issues he used to be a twit about. -SESmith 09:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
"The doctrine of the church comes first rather than nondoctrinal statements by individuals."
This statement violates WP:COI. POV push somewhere else. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 04:00, 10 June 2007 (UTC)