Line 92: | Line 92: | ||
I'll send anyone $50 if you open your mind enough to read these two articles: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/pddrdilemma.htm AND http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/epwbtest.htm You have to prove you really read and understood them though. :-) I'll be happy to explain the whole thing via phone. [[User:Sgactorny|Sgactorny]] 20:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC) |
I'll send anyone $50 if you open your mind enough to read these two articles: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/pddrdilemma.htm AND http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/epwbtest.htm You have to prove you really read and understood them though. :-) I'll be happy to explain the whole thing via phone. [[User:Sgactorny|Sgactorny]] 20:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC) |
||
You made several attacks in your last comments ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AIDS_reappraisal&curid=275061&diff=36013779&oldid=36013175] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:AIDS_reappraisal&diff=prev&oldid=36013175]). You said, "your point is crap", "Their HIV hypothesis is absurd", "You are just spewing what you read", "Gosh, I'd like to see your score on the LSAT [...] That would give me a good laugh", "no idea what point you thought you were making [...] And I suspect you don't either", "I suspect you will go on mischaracterizing", "delude yourself", "further quotes from you will be distortions and misunderstandings", and "you clearly are not interested in actually learning". Comments like that make it difficult for people to empathize with you. I know you have good information to offer, so please help ensure that your valuable insight gets included into the AIDS reappraisal article by using a more [[WP:CIVIL]] tone. [[User:Rodasmith|The Rod]] 22:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:40, 20 January 2006
Thank you for your contributions, you seem to be off to a good start. Hopefully you will soon join the vast army of Wikipediholics! If you need help on how to title new articles see the naming conventions, and for help on formatting the pages visit the manual of style. For general questions goto Wikipedia:Help or the FAQ, if you can't find your answer there check the Village Pump (for Wikipedia related questions) or the Reference Desk (for general questions)! There's still more help at the Tutorial and Policy Library. Plus, don't forget to visit the Community Portal. If you have any more questions after that, feel free to ask me directly on my user talk page.
Additional tips
Here's some extra tips to help you get around in the 'pedia!
- For Wikipedia policies and guidelines see The Five Pillars of Wikipedia and What Wikipedia is not.
- Find everything in the Directory.
- If you want to play around with your new Wiki skills the Sandbox is for you.
- Introduce yourself at the new user log.
- If you're bored and want to find something to do, try the Random page button in the sidebar, or check out the Open Task message in the Community Portal.
- If you have edits from before creating an account try this.
- To Upload Images with the correct Copyright tags.
- Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~), this will automatically produce your name and the date.
Be Bold!!
You can find me at my user page or talk page for any questions. Happy editing, and we'll see ya 'round.
Joe I 02:41, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
AIDS dissidents
Stop censoring AIDS dissidents on Wikipedia. Promote your orthodox views on AIDS orhtodoxy pages! PLEASE. You deserve to have your say where it belongs. And we deserve to have our say where it belongs. I've lost too many friends to AIDS to stand by and let you try and censor AIDS dissident positions. People are dying. by User:Sgactorny
Please stop adding nonsense to Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, use the sandbox. Thank you. Bob 20:43, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Regarding the page AIDS reappraisal, please stop. If you continue to vandalize pages, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Bob 21:32, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
There is no vandalism and you know it. There is simply you trying to put back in orhtodox AIDS positions on the AIDS reappraiser page.
Revert?
Why did you revert my edits on the AIDS reappraisal article? The sentence I removed was just mentioned in the opening paragraph, thus it is redundant. Nrets 20:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I never spelled anybody's name. I think you have exceeded your 3RR limit on this article. Nrets 20:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
- One more thing, this is not a discussion board, it is an encyclopedia. It is not about promoting views as you claim. The material you are including is heavily slanted and unsourced, making it POV. Which is against Wikipedia policy. Please limit your edits to material that can be extrnally verified. Finally, refrain from insulting other editors, which is also against wikipedia policy, unless you want to be banned by an administrator. Nrets 20:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi, Sgactorny. Until the POV issues are resolved, it's important to keep the {{POV}} template on AIDS reappraisal. Feel free to work on editing the article, but remember not to refer to Wikipedia itself within the article, as the talk page is a better place for those edits. The Rod 00:35, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for leaving the POV tag with your last edit. I'm sure we can all work toward a complete, verifiable, and encyclopedic article. Maybe it would help to lay out a plan on the talk page for moving toward that goal. Any suggestions? The Rod 00:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Rod, my general tip would be to stop the AIDS mainstreamers with their agenda from distorting AIDS dissident views on the dissident page...until dissident like myself who have actually read AIDS research for over a decade can get to fixing this ridiculously messy page. The problem with these other folks is that they know very little about even the mainstream views, let alone what the dissident scientists say, so their edits end up being tacit or overt censorship of dissident views and arguments. WHat would help is if they would simply butt out until the page can be cleaned up by those who actually know what the scientific arguments are in favor of the dissident views. No one who is editing this page is familiar with their views. it is obvious from the statements they make. So if everyone would just take a deep breath, I actually sent email to some prominent dissident activists, and invited them to come and make some NPOV contributions. Maybe they'll respond. Until then, I'll work, slowly, to make an ACCURATE non-POV page. BUt I have a full life and that will take a while. In the meantime, I won't allow mainstreamers to come on constantly and delete the VERY FEW accurate dissident positions on this page. As for the constant insults from the mainstreamers on these talk page, the FACT of the matter is that there are BOOKS written about the dissident positions, by scientists from all over the world, with hundreds of scientific references. The fact that none of these people have read them is evidenced by the fact that they continually say there is hardly anything in favor of dissident views. And when they do present what they think is a dissident view, they are wrong. One editor is not even apparently aware that the orthodoxy calls AIDS dissidents AIDS DENIALISTS in most of their writing, and has for years!!! So why should these people, who don't even know dissident views, be editing this page? Ridiculous. Sgactorny 00:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Great. I saw several of the orthodox POV statements that clearly didn't belong, so I'm happy that you and Revolver eliminated them from that article. For what it's worth, I assure you that I assume good faith in your desire to create an encyclopedic article, as you can do in mine. I'm excited to see how the AIDS reappraisal article turns out! The Rod 17:52, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Invitation to join AIDS Dissent Wikicity
Hi, Sgactorny. I got your message on my talk page. I actually created the AIDS reappraisal article a few years ago, and it's gone steadily downhill in quality ever since. I have more or less given up on using Wikipedia as a place to develop information on AIDS or as a place for adequate representation of dissident viewpoints. I became so fed up with the situation that I turned to Wikicities, a spin-off of Wikipedia which runs on Google-ads. Here, there is a separate Wikicity to develop apart from Wikipedia, so there is a lot more freedom to develop things without constantly getting bogged down in fighting people. Also, on Wikicities, any particular wikicity is free to adopt its own mission statement and policies. In particular, the NPOV requirement is not a strict requirement and can be modified. This means that we can allow orthodox arguments to be presented, but if someone is clearly on an agenda to attempt to refute every dissident claim and do nothing but defend the orthodoxy, and if these are the only contributions they make, then they can legitimately be banned.
I founded the wikicity about 2 months ago. So far, I've contributed about 90% of what's there. There are currently about 35 articles. I'm trying to recruit people to contribute and do some things to enhance the google rankings. I even emailed some prominent dissidents, but didn't hear back from them. It takes a while before people are willing to devote time to something that appears to be a waste of time at first or something that may not amount to much. But I have faith that once enough people start contributing and once a sufficient amount of material is available there, it will start to take off just like Wikipedia did at one time. After all, there are hundreds (thousands) of people who should be willing to give a little of their time to develop the site.
So, that's what I think. I know it's tempting to want to "repair" the AIDS reappraisal article, but my experience has been that it's by and large a pointless endeavor. I think I've come up with a better channel for my energies, at the least a more efficient use of my time. And I think in the end, it will help the cause more. So, I would invite you to come over and look around and see what you think. If you want to contribute, you could get a username (just like at Wikipedia). The interface and everything is pretty much the same. You can leave questions or suggestions at my talk page at the wikicity. Hope to see you there! Revolver 04:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Nucleoside analogues
Nucleoside analogues are reverse transcriptase inhibitors, and therefore are used for their anti-retroviral effects. Nrets 18:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi again, Sgactorny. I don't understand why you made this edit. Can you help me understand your reasoning? The Rod 19:02, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Please add me to the list of people who are confused by your statement (from edit summary): "it IS used as ARV, but it is not one - it is a reverse transciptase inhibitor, an anti-DNA drug." An antiretroviral drug is nothing more or less than a drug that works to suppress retrovirus activity, just as an antibacterial drug works against bacteria. The word describes the purpose and effect, not the mechanism: it doesn't matter whether it does this by inhibiting reverse transcriptase, protease, or bad vibes. Since retrovirus reproduction depends on reverse transcriptase, all reverse transcriptase inhibitors are antiretrovirals, regardless of how well they work or how toxic they are. I don't understand the purpose of redefining the word as you're doing; I think it's only muddling the point of view you're trying to get across. ←Hob 00:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- I can't speak for Sgactorny, but I can think of 2 things he might mean – first, that since AZT is not specific against HIV reverse transcriptase but targets DNA synthesis as well, it's not really accurate to call it an "ARV". Second, if HIV has not been isolated, then it makes little sense to say AZT inhibits retrovirus activity, if a retrovirus isn't even present. Lastly, I think you contradict yourself above: first you say that it is the "purpose and effect, not the mechanism", then you say it's an ARV because it's a "reverse transcriptase inhibitor" (mechanism). If you really believe the former, then AZT is hardly an ARV, because it's been shown not to be effective. If you really believe the latter, then AZT is an ARV, just one that doesn't work. Revolver 00:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
AIDS reappraisal
You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. . If you feel this block has been unjust, that is, you didn't violate the 3RR, please feel free to email me, or get another admin to give you a third opinion. - FrancisTyers 19:09, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for your email. I'm afraid that despite being a bit uncivil and edit warring, User:nrets hasn't violated any rules that would require a ban. I have protected the page (now only admins can edit it), I would appreciate if you and User:nrets would sort out the problem on the talk page after your ban expires. Please read the notice I left on the talk page regarding dispute resolution. - FrancisTyers 19:20, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, probably the best thing to do in this case is to take your case to the mediation cabal. There you can talk through the problem with an impartial mediator who will help you resolve this dispute without resorting to an edit war. Hope this helps, - FrancisTyers 22:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
AIDS Orthodoxy temporarily wins battle to censor dissidents from this page
Like past AIDS dissidents who have tried to make an honest, NPOV page, I will now yield to the two or three AIDS orthodox promoters set on changing this page so the public can't know the truth about what AIDS dissidents say. The reason I'm doing this is because I'm preparing a neutral, NPOV, referenced, wikified article. If you orthodox promoters try and censor that, too, I'll take it all the way to the top. For now, have your fun stopping readers from seeing what dissidents actually believe. I will be back soon. Sgactorny 22:17, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I believe you want to create a good encyclopedia article. Accusing others of censorship, though, prohibits the assumption of good faith on which Wikipedia collaboration depends, so let's work together. I'm looking forward to your improvements. Peace. The Rod 23:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Can you honestly say you believe these others, who admit they don't know dissident science, believe in the orthodoxy, and repeatedly insert orthodox positions are interested in this page accurately presenting an encyclopedia article to the public? From the dissident perspective, the mainstream has had its views in the public for 20 years! And whenever we try and present the alternatives, supported by scientists with as much credentials (or more) as the orthodox scientists who make their money promoting HIV and AIDS meds, those orthodox people are right there inserting POV and censoring and getting us banned wherever possible. It isn't a conspiracy, any more than when people believed leeches cured illness was. But societal heirarchies and the fact that most people do not actually have good critical thinking skills make Thomas Kuhn's time-tested maxim true: When an establishment exists that is invested in a paradigm, the masses defend it to the death, even though the masses know nothing about it. For this is what must occur for a society to survive: THere are leaders (duesberg, gallo, montagnier, mullis) and followers (nrets, grcampbell). The only thing that eventually changes a dominant paradigm (such as HIV-causes-AIDS) is time: as the orthodoxy literally dies, and the next generation has no investment in either side. And a new paradigm can occur. This is what has occurred all throughout human history, and AIDS is no different. In my 10 years working on this issue, I have noticed that when people come to AIDS with no investment in either side, and they actually take the time to read the actual dissidents' writings, they become a dissident. I can hardly think of any exceptions to this observation. QuestionAIDS.com or Virusmyth.net are a couple of the best repositories of actual dissident data. I've noticed that dissidents don't try and censor the orthodoxy, in fact we're the first to say READ THE ORTHODOXY DATA! We find that upon actually reading what the the orthodoxy says is its science, critical thinkers come to the conclusion its crap. Interesting how dissidents WANT the public to read orthodoxy articles, but the orthodoxy does everything it can to suppress the debate and free flow of dissident information. No surprise, history predicts this. As for this article, it is 98% nonsense, as I've said in many previous posts. It is designed to make people think there is nothing to dissidents' views. You know, is the orthodox people, like nrets, were so confident in the orthodox positions, why do you think they need to come on here and do edit wars with dissidents? I think the answer is obvious... Sgactorny 23:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
- When you get tired of banging your head against the wall (I know the feeling), you can come to the wikicity. 64.185.47.19 00:38, 20 January 2006 (UTC) Revolver 00:57, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Hi again, Sgactorny. As you know, the article page for AIDS reappraisal is locked to encourage us to work out content differences. I get the impression that you'd prefer not to use the talk page to collaborate on what content and wording to use. Let me know if that impression is wrong. If it's right, though, could you please estimate about how long your effort to create the replacement page might take? If you estimate only a day or so, I'll just wait for your proposal on the talk page. If you think it might take much longer to create your new article page content, I'd hope to petition for the article page to be unlocked in the meantime. That would let me move content that appears to criticize the movement into a new "Criticism" section, following the main body. The Rod 19:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
It will be a few weeks, not a day. I really do have a very full time job in NYC having nothing to do with AIDS. I've been an activist for a very long time, though. I, and revolver, judge that "working out differences" with those who clearly know utterly nothing about dissident POV is a total waste of time. Not only are some of these people ignorant of actual dissident research, they are deliberately ignorant, and possibily even incapable of independent thinking. As a result, spending time talking to them, before there is even a dissident page created, is pointless. You can do whatever you want, it will all be moot when an actual dissident page is made. As for your individual changes to the massively inaccurate page "AIDS reappraisal," go ahead. To me its a total waste of time until the new page is done. But rod, have you ever read any actual dissident science with an open, scientific mind? I wish you would prioritize and do that, as opposed to advocating a point of view on this page, when you have little or no basis for your own opinions. By the time you read a couple articles by dissidents, we'll be on our way to the new page -- that's when it makes sense to talk. I'd happily take any questions you have about dissidents on the phone. If you don't have a science background, learning the vocabulary can take time. I'd be happy to talk to ANYONE who is genuinely interested in getting informed, on the phone anytime. I can tell you both the orthodox POV (accurately) and the dissident reasoning (accurately). I've been doing this a long time. I have an encyclopedia knowledge of it all. Sgactorny 20:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. I will count on using your new content to educate myself more in the matter. (I'm sure you will include references so that I can research each point further.) Since it will be a few weeks before you and revolver present your update, I'll at least work toward unlocking the article in order to move its obviously critical content into a "Criticism" section for now. I am a little concerned about what might happen when the article is unlocked, as everyone must remain WP:CIVIL. Do you think we can all be civil there even if some people are unaware of some AIDS reappraisal facts and doubt its validity? The Rod 20:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I'll send anyone $50 if you open your mind enough to read these two articles: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/pddrdilemma.htm AND http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/epwbtest.htm You have to prove you really read and understood them though. :-) I'll be happy to explain the whole thing via phone. Sgactorny 20:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
You made several attacks in your last comments ([1] and [2]). You said, "your point is crap", "Their HIV hypothesis is absurd", "You are just spewing what you read", "Gosh, I'd like to see your score on the LSAT [...] That would give me a good laugh", "no idea what point you thought you were making [...] And I suspect you don't either", "I suspect you will go on mischaracterizing", "delude yourself", "further quotes from you will be distortions and misunderstandings", and "you clearly are not interested in actually learning". Comments like that make it difficult for people to empathize with you. I know you have good information to offer, so please help ensure that your valuable insight gets included into the AIDS reappraisal article by using a more WP:CIVIL tone. The Rod 22:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)