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I stalk a lot of pages, and your reply to the school librarian struck a chord. At Wikimedia UK we do a lot of editathons and over a couple of years I have developed a lot of paper material. The latest is deposited (hidden) at [[:Commons:File:Women in Red Creating an article-8 Mar 2017.pdf]], it was prepared for a Woman in Red event in Cambridge. It is not designed to be used as online training but it appears that some folk are using it that way. I can see that a High School Librarian might find it useful to support teacher... I have put dropbox links to a .odt at [[User:ClemRutter/training]]. If you want to use it as is- feel free, if you wish to customise it to form a Wiki-Ed project edition (with a dire warning about COI and suitable school based projects then I would be happy to cooperate. Please respond directly to my talkpage. [[User:ClemRutter|ClemRutter]] ([[User talk:ClemRutter|talk]]) 20:39, 28 March 2017 (UTC) |
I stalk a lot of pages, and your reply to the school librarian struck a chord. At Wikimedia UK we do a lot of editathons and over a couple of years I have developed a lot of paper material. The latest is deposited (hidden) at [[:Commons:File:Women in Red Creating an article-8 Mar 2017.pdf]], it was prepared for a Woman in Red event in Cambridge. It is not designed to be used as online training but it appears that some folk are using it that way. I can see that a High School Librarian might find it useful to support teacher... I have put dropbox links to a .odt at [[User:ClemRutter/training]]. If you want to use it as is- feel free, if you wish to customise it to form a Wiki-Ed project edition (with a dire warning about COI and suitable school based projects then I would be happy to cooperate. Please respond directly to my talkpage. [[User:ClemRutter|ClemRutter]] ([[User talk:ClemRutter|talk]]) 20:39, 28 March 2017 (UTC) |
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==Education project issues== |
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<p>I saw your post on ANI with the class project mess. It seems a rather complex issue, and you'd had a lot to say on it, so I hope it's alright if I cover a few things too.</p><p>This isn't the first time I've run across issues with educational projects. I've helped to clean up copyvio issues before (I don't know if students are just used to plagiarizing and don't get caught or what, but experienced Wikipedians are some of the best copy detectors there are), and those same issues occurred with these projects. When I was spot checking them, sure enough, "Huh. This abruptly changes tone, it looks copied." Sure enough, it was. I'd generally expect students to understand what plagiarism is and how to avoid it, but maybe we need to improve on making clear it's just as unacceptable here as it is on any of their school projects.</p><p>I also, to be quite honest, really question the wisdom of the approach you seem to indicate was taken, of encouraging students to directly create new mainspace articles with no review. Selecting an appropriate topic, and then creating a workable article on it from the first edit, is ''hard''. Doing a draft and having it reviewed is definitely a gentler way to ease new editors in, as is editing existing articles first to get an idea of what an article should look like. In this case, that approach led to a significant number of inappropriate POV forks.</p><p>Also, is there any kind of up-front "instruct the instructor" type process? In this case, the professor was making the situation a great deal worse, by handwaving away advice, attributing criticism to racism and sexism, and essentially encouraging the advocacy and the POV forking to "bring visibility" to whatever the students were writing. Especially in a sensitive area already subject to discretionary sanctions, that's going to cause a major issue. Indeed, if the disruption continues, discretionary sanctions might come into play. I'm very surprised they haven't already, to be quite honest. I can't imagine topic banning a student from the area they're supposed to edit in would be a good outcome for anyone.</p><p>And that leads to my final point. There was discussion of whether there should be different advice for instructors considering having their students edit in highly charged areas. There should be different advice for that, and the answer should be a large, red, blinking, bolded, 72-point "DO NOT DO THAT." Those areas are minefields even for experienced editors. Throwing students, who probably for the most part have never edited Wikipedia and don't know how to, into an area where everything they do will be under a microscope and subject to harsh criticism and potential sanctions, is absolutely not fair to them, and is also not fair to the community spending time to deal with the fallout. When teaching first-year chemistry students, you don't immediately put them to working with nitroglycerin and hydrofluoric acid. You work them up to it. Now, if students have already done introductory Wikipedia-based classes and have gotten a feel for how to edit neutrally, determine if a reference is reliable, engage in discussion productively, etc., they might then be ready to enter more difficult areas (''very carefully''). But don't just throw them straight into the hardest thing possible.</p><p>And, finally, I think it's necessary for students to have a firm understanding that being on a student project gives them no exemption from rules and policies here. I've run across that on some occasions, when students writing for a project wrote promotional material, essentially fan pages, and I had to G11 them. They were astonished and had the idea they could "write whatever" because it was under an educational project. Fortunately, most of them were receptive to advice and did successfully rewrite what they did, but it still clearly surprised them. So, I hope that might be some useful ideas for how to improve education projects, so both students and the editors who run across them can have a better experience. (I'll also ping {{u|EJustice}}, the instructor here, in case they have any thoughts from the other side of it.) [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 15:02, 17 April 2017 (UTC)</p> |
Revision as of 17:32, 17 April 2017
Please
Would you re-assess the article I created Serial rapist. It has been greatly improved by others and myself and is undoubtedly not a 'start' class article. Thanks,
- Morrison Foster is also not a stub any longer.
- Chest pain in children is not a start any longer.
- Barbara (WVS) (talk) 02:23, 28 November 2016 (UTC) and
- Barbara (WVS) (talk) 12:57, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Barbara (WVS): Thanks. We were short-staffed for a little while so no reviewing took place, but I am maintaining a list that we will hopefully get to later this month. --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 23:51, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me, please don't feel like there is a rush. This stuff is not going anywhere. It is difficult to find anyone who will review my articles. Still not a huge deal. Did you see the article about Temple university wanting a visiting scholar? Oh yes, you are quoted in the Sunday Pittsburgh Post Gazette (I got my copy a day ahead of time).Barbara (WVS) (talk)
- @Barbara (WVS): I'm not sure which article you mean regarding Temple. I saw one in the school paper, and of course the one I wrote on our blog, but those were a few months ago. They're looking for an experienced editor to articles on the history of Philadelphia, but haven't found the right person yet. If you happen to talk to a Wikipedian from the area that may be interested, send them my way. :) Regarding the Post Gazette, I looked for the article on the Post Gazette website but didn't see it. Is it a paper that doesn't post everything online? --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:18, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
- Apparently, they don't post everything online. After my final exams, I will contact the reporter about that. I did scan a copy for myself but would need an email address to send it to if you wanted to see the jpg. Best Regards,
- Barbara (WVS) (talk) 19:16, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
- @Barbara (WVS): Ah. Whenever you have the time, I'd love to see it (ryan [at] wikiedu [dot] org). Thanks. :) --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:38, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
- Barbara (WVS) (talk) 19:16, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
- Apparently, they don't post everything online. After my final exams, I will contact the reporter about that. I did scan a copy for myself but would need an email address to send it to if you wanted to see the jpg. Best Regards,
- @Barbara (WVS): I'm not sure which article you mean regarding Temple. I saw one in the school paper, and of course the one I wrote on our blog, but those were a few months ago. They're looking for an experienced editor to articles on the history of Philadelphia, but haven't found the right person yet. If you happen to talk to a Wikipedian from the area that may be interested, send them my way. :) Regarding the Post Gazette, I looked for the article on the Post Gazette website but didn't see it. Is it a paper that doesn't post everything online? --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:18, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me, please don't feel like there is a rush. This stuff is not going anywhere. It is difficult to find anyone who will review my articles. Still not a huge deal. Did you see the article about Temple university wanting a visiting scholar? Oh yes, you are quoted in the Sunday Pittsburgh Post Gazette (I got my copy a day ahead of time).Barbara (WVS) (talk)
- @Barbara (WVS): Thanks. We were short-staffed for a little while so no reviewing took place, but I am maintaining a list that we will hopefully get to later this month. --Ryan (Wiki Ed) (talk) 23:51, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
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Holiday greetings, you deserve | |
An outstanding editor, you are. Keeping up the good work, much appreciated it is. The very best wishes for a joyful holiday are wished for you. Barbara (WVS) (talk) |
Re: Starting a classroom assignment
I stalk a lot of pages, and your reply to the school librarian struck a chord. At Wikimedia UK we do a lot of editathons and over a couple of years I have developed a lot of paper material. The latest is deposited (hidden) at Commons:File:Women in Red Creating an article-8 Mar 2017.pdf, it was prepared for a Woman in Red event in Cambridge. It is not designed to be used as online training but it appears that some folk are using it that way. I can see that a High School Librarian might find it useful to support teacher... I have put dropbox links to a .odt at User:ClemRutter/training. If you want to use it as is- feel free, if you wish to customise it to form a Wiki-Ed project edition (with a dire warning about COI and suitable school based projects then I would be happy to cooperate. Please respond directly to my talkpage. ClemRutter (talk) 20:39, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Education project issues
I saw your post on ANI with the class project mess. It seems a rather complex issue, and you'd had a lot to say on it, so I hope it's alright if I cover a few things too.
This isn't the first time I've run across issues with educational projects. I've helped to clean up copyvio issues before (I don't know if students are just used to plagiarizing and don't get caught or what, but experienced Wikipedians are some of the best copy detectors there are), and those same issues occurred with these projects. When I was spot checking them, sure enough, "Huh. This abruptly changes tone, it looks copied." Sure enough, it was. I'd generally expect students to understand what plagiarism is and how to avoid it, but maybe we need to improve on making clear it's just as unacceptable here as it is on any of their school projects.
I also, to be quite honest, really question the wisdom of the approach you seem to indicate was taken, of encouraging students to directly create new mainspace articles with no review. Selecting an appropriate topic, and then creating a workable article on it from the first edit, is hard. Doing a draft and having it reviewed is definitely a gentler way to ease new editors in, as is editing existing articles first to get an idea of what an article should look like. In this case, that approach led to a significant number of inappropriate POV forks.
Also, is there any kind of up-front "instruct the instructor" type process? In this case, the professor was making the situation a great deal worse, by handwaving away advice, attributing criticism to racism and sexism, and essentially encouraging the advocacy and the POV forking to "bring visibility" to whatever the students were writing. Especially in a sensitive area already subject to discretionary sanctions, that's going to cause a major issue. Indeed, if the disruption continues, discretionary sanctions might come into play. I'm very surprised they haven't already, to be quite honest. I can't imagine topic banning a student from the area they're supposed to edit in would be a good outcome for anyone.
And that leads to my final point. There was discussion of whether there should be different advice for instructors considering having their students edit in highly charged areas. There should be different advice for that, and the answer should be a large, red, blinking, bolded, 72-point "DO NOT DO THAT." Those areas are minefields even for experienced editors. Throwing students, who probably for the most part have never edited Wikipedia and don't know how to, into an area where everything they do will be under a microscope and subject to harsh criticism and potential sanctions, is absolutely not fair to them, and is also not fair to the community spending time to deal with the fallout. When teaching first-year chemistry students, you don't immediately put them to working with nitroglycerin and hydrofluoric acid. You work them up to it. Now, if students have already done introductory Wikipedia-based classes and have gotten a feel for how to edit neutrally, determine if a reference is reliable, engage in discussion productively, etc., they might then be ready to enter more difficult areas (very carefully). But don't just throw them straight into the hardest thing possible.
And, finally, I think it's necessary for students to have a firm understanding that being on a student project gives them no exemption from rules and policies here. I've run across that on some occasions, when students writing for a project wrote promotional material, essentially fan pages, and I had to G11 them. They were astonished and had the idea they could "write whatever" because it was under an educational project. Fortunately, most of them were receptive to advice and did successfully rewrite what they did, but it still clearly surprised them. So, I hope that might be some useful ideas for how to improve education projects, so both students and the editors who run across them can have a better experience. (I'll also ping EJustice, the instructor here, in case they have any thoughts from the other side of it.) Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:02, 17 April 2017 (UTC)