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There is one point from the sandbox that needs a response: you quoted me as saying "a trivial matter". Are you referring to my comment "{{xt|It's a trivial issue, but FYI what I said was 100% accurate.}}"? If so, I was saying that I wanted to raise a trivial issue, namely that my comment about edits by a sockpuppet was correct (and I continued with a brief explanation). I have never referred to anything connected with the article as "trivial". Again, the sooner the side issues are ignored (things like my "agenda", who said what, sockpuppets, and Wikipedia's policies), the sooner any content issues will be resolved. By the way, please never repeat the term "legally actionable" as that sets off alarm bells among onlookers—I can see what you are getting at (although why you don't just use plain language to say what you think should be changed eludes me), but many people might interpret such comments as conflicting with [[WP:NLT]], and that is a hard rule which is strictly enforced (I will explain why, if you like, but please take my advice and don't say anything which could be misconstrued along legal lines). [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 10:04, 7 February 2012 (UTC) |
There is one point from the sandbox that needs a response: you quoted me as saying "a trivial matter". Are you referring to my comment "{{xt|It's a trivial issue, but FYI what I said was 100% accurate.}}"? If so, I was saying that I wanted to raise a trivial issue, namely that my comment about edits by a sockpuppet was correct (and I continued with a brief explanation). I have never referred to anything connected with the article as "trivial". Again, the sooner the side issues are ignored (things like my "agenda", who said what, sockpuppets, and Wikipedia's policies), the sooner any content issues will be resolved. By the way, please never repeat the term "legally actionable" as that sets off alarm bells among onlookers—I can see what you are getting at (although why you don't just use plain language to say what you think should be changed eludes me), but many people might interpret such comments as conflicting with [[WP:NLT]], and that is a hard rule which is strictly enforced (I will explain why, if you like, but please take my advice and don't say anything which could be misconstrued along legal lines). [[User:Johnuniq|Johnuniq]] ([[User talk:Johnuniq|talk]]) 10:04, 7 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:Erm, this is not good: "Dr. Rind and I do not agree that these matters are trivial, as they are legally actionable." (This is taken from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Radvo/sandbox&oldid=475527363 here]; this is a userpage sandbox so I'm not sure it has the same standing as something posted to an active page, but it probably does, at least technically.) Your exact meaning is not clear and I assume that you're just posturing, but one interpretation is that Dr Rind is preparing or at least considering legal action against the Wikimedia Foundation. Whether this is true or not and whether or not you are qualified to speak for Dr Rind in these matters I don't know, but you should probably be pretty careful about making statement like this, see [[WP:LEGALTHREAT]], thanks. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 04:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC) |
:Erm, this is not good: "Dr. Rind and I do not agree that these matters are trivial, as they are legally actionable." (This is taken from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Radvo/sandbox&oldid=475527363 here]; this is a userpage sandbox so I'm not sure it has the same standing as something posted to an active page, but it probably does, at least technically.) Your exact meaning is not clear and I assume that you're just posturing, but one interpretation is that Dr Rind is preparing or at least considering legal action against the Wikimedia Foundation. Whether this is true or not and whether or not you are qualified to speak for Dr Rind in these matters I don't know, but you should probably be pretty careful about making statement like this, see [[WP:LEGALTHREAT]], thanks. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] ([[User talk:Herostratus|talk]]) 04:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC) |
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== ANI == |
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Sorry to inform you but I have made a thread at ANI about your recent post to the Rind talk page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Talk:Rind_et_al._controversy_and_user:_Radvo_consistently_failing_to_comply_with_talk_page_guidelines [[user:OohBunnies!|<sup><small><font color="#8C0099">Ooh</font></small></sup><font color="#F166FF">Bunnies!</font>]] <small><span style="color:#191970">[[user_talk:OohBunnies!|Leave a message :)]]</span></small> 04:16, 8 February 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:16, 8 February 2012
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Welcome to Wikipedia from S Marshall
Hi, Radvo. I welcome you to Wikipedia! Thank you for all of your edits. I hope you like editing here and being part of Wikipedia! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); when you save the page, this will turn into your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or put {{helpme}}
(and what you need help with) on your talk page and someone will show up very soon to answer your questions. You also might want to consider being "adopted" by an experienced user who would show you how wikipedia works through a program called adopt-a-user. Again, welcome!
—S Marshall T/C 20:36, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Hi S Marshall,
It's nice to be welcomed here. Thank you for your e-mail. This is the first I heard of the adopt-a-user program. Is this a good idea for me?
TruthinWriting has proposed a new section that summarizes the 1998 Rind report in 600 words or so. His first version of the summary was completely redacted, and IMHO he was given a litany of poor reasons why. That redaction turned out well, however, because TruthinWriting wrote a better second version. He placed a copy of his second proposal on the TALK page. It would be great if people who visit this page would comment on it on the TALK page. Are you in a position to make a comment there to get some genuine conversation going? Do you think the average person on Wikipedia would understand the summary?
It seems that the three people who have commented on the TALK page in the past week or so, are all from the Pedophilia Article Watch. I'd like to attract to this page professional psychologists, sexologists, and statisticians who might have more to offer. (But they may rather keep their distance from this topic.) Failing that, I'd like to figure out how to keep the energetic posters, like some who have posted there in the past, to keep working on improving this topic.
Have you been on Wikipedia long? Do you have any tips or history of this topic to share with me that I wouldn't see in the archive?
I would like to make this article better.
- Hi, Radvo, and welcome aboard once more!
Adopt-a-user is completely optional. I'd recommend it for anyone who feels daunted or confused by Wikipedia, which can be a complicated place. However, if you feel comfortable here and confident of being able to take part without one-to-one support then it's not necessary at all.
I'm afraid I have no knowledge whatsoever of the topic area in which you're editing. The reason I welcomed you is because at the time, I was keeping an eye on new users' contributions to Wikipedia—I do that from time to time, partly so that I can welcome anyone new, and partly as a way of quietly getting rid of vandalism when it's added (because vandals are blocked quickly, most vandalism comes from new accounts). I saw that you were editing productively, but that nobody had ever posted to your talk page, so I simply dropped by to say hi.
I'm afraid I don't know anything about the Pedophilia Article Watch, but I do see that a user called Herostratus has posted to the talk page and in my experience he's sensible, helpful and approachable. I suggest directing your questions to him on his talk page!
I've been around since mid-2006. What I mainly do is translate articles from foreign-language Wikipedias, but I've also written various articles about rural life, and history, in the United Kingdom.
All the best—S Marshall T/C 09:35, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
- Hi, Radvo, and welcome aboard once more!
Some unasked for advice
Hello, Radvo. I saw the note you left Herostratus and then took a look at what has been going on at the Rind et al. controversy article. I'd like to offer you a few tips. Firstly, you are rather guilty of writing walls of text. Please try and condense your points further. I see a lot of cases where are you are repeating points to add emphasis. Please try and keep it shorter - remember, everyone editing here is doing so on a voluntary basis and during their own free time, they may not have that much time to read through paragraph upon paragraph. That part of my advice can be ignored however, if you really feel that's how you must communicate. What can't be ignored so easily is your attitude. Things like "How am I doing, Flyer22? Did I learn the specific lesson about truth vs. reliable sources well? I'm a grade grubber. Can I get an "A"? If I don't yet get an A, can I do some "makeup work" to improve my grade? For extra credit, how about if I get a former editor or two banned for making unverifiable claims? Can I get an A+ then?" aren't helpful at all. They are a waste of space. Please try to stick to the point and not be rude to other editors. Finally, the last message you left Herostratus also doesn't sit right. Suggesting that he is not "right for the work" or not working productively is impolite and completely unhelpful. Herostratus has been working in that area for a long time and is respected and careful editor. He is not the problem here. If you want the editors working in that area to work well with you, respect them. Respect that they might not have a lot of free time and respect that they've been here longer than you and know what they're doing. I really hope that you can stick around and become a valued editor here. Good luck, OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 19:23, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- If your comments to Flyer22 were meant to be jokes that's fine, although you did admit elsewhere in the thread on the Rind et al. talkpage that you were annoyed. It's fine to be annoyed, and there are no rules against being sarcastic either, but it doesn't endear you too much to fellow editors. It seemed that Flyer22 didn't take kindly to something you said as she said "we won't work well together" but it's easily remedied.
- Have you read the page about assuming good faith? It might help your interactions with Herostratus to remember that while you disagree with his edits, he's most likely not intending to destroy anyone's hard work, nor is he intending to be cavalier about it. He's just trying to keep Wikipedia up to a standard. His responses may seem short but I get the impression he might be working on a tight schedule.
- I know Wikipedia can be a bit difficult to get used to. As for taking time over your edits, the way I do it is to write it in the editing box, then if the edit is not finished and I want to come back to it later, I copy and paste it into a word processor like MS Word or something and save it on my hard drive. There may be easier ways, but I don't know them, alas. Remember that once you have finished your edit, make sure before you add it into the article that it won't conflict with any edits that might have been made to the same text since you were last on Wikipedia. If other edits have been added, try and work yours in around it.
- If you can't work things out with Herostratus, and I hope you can, there are dispute resolution steps you can take. I don't know if it really qualifies as a dispute right now, but if you feel it gets that way you can take it to places like the dispute resolution noticeboard where other experienced editors can take a look. I'd suggest leaving that as a last resort, and if you ever do go there, remember to keep everything concise and to the point; it makes it easier for an uninvolved editor to look over the situation and come to a conclusion. I hope all of this was helpful! OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 20:44, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
- Hey, I believe you if you say it's meant to be lighthearted. Remember though that on the internet, we can't convey tone properly so a lot of things go wooshing over people's heads. :P OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 19:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
"redacting"
What are you talking about? I haven't touched that article in 2 weeks and even them I didn't redact anything. I also haven't been part of any discussion since 12/19. I don't have time for this article right now.Legitimus (talk) 21:23, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
Preferences
To enable section editing, you must alter your preferences. Based on how my account is configured, you would log in, click "My preferences" at the top-right of the screen, select the "Editing" tab, and in the second section ("Advanced options") click the third dialogue box ("Enable section editing via [edit] links"). WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 15:04, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
WP:ANI posting
Note. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 02:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
- Note that this has been reported to arbcom per WP:CHILDPROTECT. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex
Concerns
Hello Radvo. Let me introduce myself as a member of the Arbitration Committe on the English Wikipedia. Since it has become the subject of discussion, I thought it might help to explain further. You will, I am sure, have read WP:CHILDPROTECT, our policy relating to child protection issues. You will have noted that Wikipedia policy forbids editing which "advocate(s) inappropriate adult–child relationships." Linking to sites which advocate same, or belonging to organisations which advocate same, are regarded by the community as evidence of advocacy for such relationships. The same is not true of citing academic research which challenges current society norms or legislation, but in such a sensitive area, it must be true academic research. Pointing to the websites of advocacy organisations which happen to contain copies of such research, rather than citing the research itself, is likely to lead to trouble.
You might also like to read WP:EL, our policy on external links in general. You will see from it that linking to anything that is (or probably is) a copyright violation is forbidden. It also contains more general guidance on external links. While you will note that sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources may be linked to (Memory Alpha is a good example) or IMDB) are acceptable, still it is necessary to avoid any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research, links to chat or discussion forums/groups, and links to advertising or self-promotional sites.
In general, if you are repeatedly reverted by other editors, it is well worth reviewing the reasons given, to see if there is a question of policy, and not just a dispute on content. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Hello Elen,
I read your message. I assure you that I want to understand and follow Wikipedia policy. I have a special interest in editing at Rind et al. controversy, but to do this competently, a Wikipedia editor needs to have access to dozens of high quality scholarly articles. One of the big problems I find in working on this Wikipedia site is that editors who have no access to the scholarly articles and have not read the articles are nevertheless editing (simply from the abstracts) and putting words into the scholars mouth that reflect their "common sense" but are not in the full text of the articles. Editors need more access to the scholarly articles, and I am trying to solve this problem both for editors and for readers.
I have some points of clarification about linking to full text of scholarly articles on the TALK page that probably are a copyright violation. Would you or someone who deals with copyright problems please take a look, for example, at this website: [Rind et al. controversy at Slash the seats]. Please take a look at the footnotes on this webpage. This website accurately mirrors our Wikipedia's page, with updates everyday, but, unlike Wikipedia, it gives its readers access to the full text of some/many of the high quality scholarly articles that Wikipedia editors put in the footnotes. So this mirror page differs only in the footnote section, giving its readers much better access to the full text of many of the citations.
(1) May I link to this Slash the Seats page on our TALK page, so other editors on our topic can get access to the full text of many articles Wikipedia editors cite? Or would this be considered "contributing" to a copyright violation?
(2) The full text of the Rind et al article (about which this article is based) is posted to the Boston University site at http://digilib.bc.edu/reserves/sc563/mcgu/sc56310.pdf. The full text of this article seems to be from a photocopy of the original article in the Psychological Bulletin. I assume it is genuine and not altered, because it is a photocopy, and the University would have no interest in altering the text for its students. Is this "probably" a copyright violation or does the University have a legal right to put this article on the web. If you think this link is legal, may the Wikipedia article link to this Boston College site on the main page? or the talk page for editor use?
(3) If much or all of an article can be located through a http://scholar.google.com/advanced_scholar_search Google scholar search, how do I determine whether I can link to that article from our Wikipedia article page, without contributing to copyright infringement? Should we assume that they are all copyright infringements? Would this assumption also apply to offering the full text of a scholarly article for a short time so all editors could read and discuss the scholarly article on the TALK page? BTW, Google finds references on the Ipce site in the Netherlands which the Wikipedia community regards as an advocacy site. IMHO, it is an information site, because it says it is an information site, though Wikipedia may incorrectly regard it as an advocacy site. I can live with what the community has decided, but it would be good if Wikipedia administration would make a list of all the banned advocacy sites. I would be sure to avoid all banned sites. Or why doesn't the Wikipedia web programmer just make these banned sites (like the Ipce site) impossible to link to. The Ipce has a huge collection of the full text of high quality scholarly articles directly related to the Rind et al. controversy. Much of the controversy was in the academic and scholarly community. Of course, I will fully accept your guidance on this, as dictated above, but I just wanted to voice my thoughts to you about this.
(4) Some of the links in the Wikipedia article's footnotes section on the Slash the seats mirror website offer its readers the full text of the articles in foreign libraries or links put on the web by college professors overseas who want the full text of the articles to be accessed by students in his/her class. Should I assume that these foreign libraries and professors overseas have a legal right to do this, or, for Wikipedia purposes, are these libraries and professors (many overseas) contributing to U.S. copyright infringement? May our Rind et al. article link to them, so Wikipedia readers (or just the editors on the TALK pages) can have access to the full text of the articles in the footnotes? Or get access to article we are considering adding to the footnotes?
Is there anything written up, besides the links you suggest above, to give me further guidance about copyright violation? If there are other knowledgeable persons who can answer any future questions better than you, would you please refer them to this page, or please give me the way to contact them. Thanks. Radvo (talk) 08:19, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Whether or not a site chooses to mirror content from Wikipedia is not relevant here. What is relevant is the part of my advice that you seem to be choosing to ignore. Linking to or pointing to sites that advocate sex with children will get you permanently turfed from Wikipedia. That's the problem here.
- You can certainly point to an online copy not hosted by advocacy groups in order to demonstrate that an academic source does not support the way it is being used by another editor. If there is a concern expressed that it might be a copyvio, then just don't put the link in the citation you include in the article. By and large, if it's published on a university site, it's probably not a copyvio - just because journals and archives like JSTOR keep their copies behind paywalls, that doesn't necessarily prevent the author from republishing in other locations. You have to make a judgement call where other sites are concerned. But if you include urls of paedophile advocacy sites, trouble will follow.Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:00, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Talk pages
I have had to collapse your recent comment at Talk:Rind et al. controversy as it is not compatible with WP:TPG. Repeatedly posting long messages can have the effect of discouraging other editors from becoming involved in an issue, or even from finding out what the issue is. Accordingly, it is essential that messages should omit all superfluous observations (nothing about other editors, and nothing about other topics). Further, messages should be focused on actionable proposals to improve the article (for example, we all hope that better writers will become available, and there is no point in making that observation on an article talk page).
If you would like to ask about procedures used at Wikipedia, it is likely that a reply here would result in comments from other editors. Alternatively, general questions (not related to other editors) can be asked at WP:HELPDESK. Johnuniq (talk) 02:28, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry if I have been unclear, but your latest message at the article talk page was not an improvement on the first and I have removed it. Please show respect for other editors by trying to understand the standard procedures that apply at Wikipedia. There are hundreds of contentious articles where talk pages could be misused and monopolised by new editors who post long messages with unclear objectives. To avoid disruption, that cannot be allowed to occur. Posting images such as File:Mastodon color.jpg and File:Ottoman surrender of Jerusalem restored.jpg cannot assist the development of the article. Comments on an article talk should very rarely refer to another editor, yet your message (diff) refers to several other editors, and yourself. Please do not do that. If you wish to discuss another editor's behavior, use the links I provided on the article talk page (WP:WQA or WP:ANI). An article talk page must focus on suggestions for improvements to the article without tendentiously long and hard to follow messages. If you have a question about Wikipedia's procedures, please reply here. Johnuniq (talk) 10:24, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Though I'm not going to remove Radvo's message on the talk page, I'm also not going to read it. This means I am not going to contribute to the consensus regarding the main page until later, if at all. This means a bold, revert, discuss cycle, and possibly an edit war are pretty much inevitable. Radvo, by failing to take other people's suggestions you are making your life here more difficult and reducing the chance of your contributions standing over the long term. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 11:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Johnuniq I am feeling bullied and harassed by the two of you, despite my full cooperation with all guidance. That is becoming more clear to me, Johnuniq, I rewrote my post with my actionable request, shortened it, and reposted it. I fully accepted your instructions, and you refuse to acknowledge that above. My second post was shorter and, in that way, it was a big improvement on the first. You refuse to acknowledge that in your message above. I took out most long reference to other editors, and that was a big improvement on the first. You refuse to acknowledge that in your message above. I had an actionable request, just as you asked me to offer. You refused to acknowledge that in your message above. I cooperated with you. You refused to acknowledge that in your message above. You did not "have to" collapse anything, and the reasons were not based on reasons that are permitted in the text at TALK page. I assume good faith until you give clear evidence that you are not responding to me in good faith, as described above. I am not feeling helped by you words and posts above. I am feeling harassed and bullied by your negativity, your criticism, and your refusal to acknowledge my improvements. I am not thriving under your supervision, despite my full cooperation. What are your going to do to contribute to the improvement of our interaction? I have taken this time to communicate with you, and you destroy me work for reasons that are unacceptable.
- Johnuniq I am preparing the detail for help from WP:WQA and have read and am following the instructions to first try resolve the conflict on the TALK page. Your redaction has interfered with, not improved communication to resolve the problem. It is courteous for me to notify the people named in my complaint who they are. You redaction of my edit to the TALK page interfered with the courtesy I was extending. I was instructed at WQA to notify the editors of my complaint, that I will be using WP:WQA. Naming the editors is not a reason to redact my entire post. It was providing them a courtesy, as instructed. If you read my post, you knew that, yet you refused in your edit above to acknowledge that. I am adding you to my complaint against the other three for twice removing my edit (the long one and the improved shortened one) to the TALK page. And I enjoyed finding those two graphics and making my point. You twist what was a genuinely offered courtesy, and compliant with the WQA process into a reason to redact my post. The captions on the graphic definitely added to the message that we had to change how we were working at that Rind site site. It was a very effective message for people of good will. Your message to refused to acknowledge how the captions and the photos were directly related to effectiveness of my proposal. Your removing the entire post made no sense to me, and none of the reasons make sense. You redact my post for inserting photos? How is that justified in the regulations. I will put my complaint together, as time allows, at WP:WQA
- The last post by WLU violates many of the instructions Johnuniq has given me and his critique of my own long edit to the TALK page. I was deeply offended by all his vulgarity in recent posts to the TALK page. I am expected to follow Wikpedia rules, and I want to do that. After all his documented vulgarity, I am being threatened with edit war? another editor will make my life here more difficult? This is unacceptable communications. Stop this!
- Putting two photos into my TALK page posting, on the other hand, is effective, even funny. I feel offended by WLU's threat above. I am feeling the pattern continues. Where is the effort to contribute to Wikipedia in all this? We need outside intervention to improve interaction here.
- I would like to bring the rest of this conversation to the TALK page, so this unacceptable language from editors can be part of my complaint to WP:WQA Please continue this there, Please live up to my expectation that you are acting in good faith. Thank you. Radvo (talk) 12:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, as an uninvolved observer, can I just offer a few words of guidance on what I see as some of the problems with your commenting style?
- In the first paragraph of your comment above, you say "rewrote my post with my actionable request, shortened it, and reposted it", "My second post was shorter and, in that way, it was a big improvement on the first", and "I took out most long reference to other editors, and that was a big improvement on the first".
- Also, "you refuse to acknowledge that above", "You refuse to acknowledge that in your message above", "You refuse to acknowledge that in your message above", and "You refused to acknowledge that in your message above" (all referring to the same thing, that you shortened/improved your message).
- In the second paragraph, I see "It is courteous for me to notify the people named in my complaint who they are", "I was instructed at WQA to notify the editors of my complaint", "Naming the editors is not a reason to redact my entire post. It was providing them a courtesy, as instructed".
- Endlessly repeating yourself pretty much guarantees that people will not read what you are writing - you are talking to intelligent people here who can understand plain English very well. You do not need to keep repeating yourself, or finding other ways to stress what you are trying to say - and you certainly don't need illustratively captioned images to convey simple concepts. Just say what you want to say ONCE, briefly, in plain English, and you'll greatly improve your chances of being listened to -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:17, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, as an uninvolved observer, can I just offer a few words of guidance on what I see as some of the problems with your commenting style?
- I would like to bring the rest of this conversation to the TALK page, so this unacceptable language from editors can be part of my complaint to WP:WQA Please continue this there, Please live up to my expectation that you are acting in good faith. Thank you. Radvo (talk) 12:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I do prefer to write one longer piece that a few shorter ones. I will look again at my text, before I "Save Page". In this particular case, I was deliberately repeating for emphasis to make my case. I really enjoy putting the photos together; I consider myself a learner at this, and enjoy the feedback. I hope to use the best of the photos, and captions, in the article itself someday. Radvo (talk) 14:01, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not threatening an edit war, I'm saying that if you post long comments, I won't read them and there is a good chance this will lead to an edit war. Instead, I offer these concrete suggestions:
- I do prefer to write one longer piece that a few shorter ones. I will look again at my text, before I "Save Page". In this particular case, I was deliberately repeating for emphasis to make my case. I really enjoy putting the photos together; I consider myself a learner at this, and enjoy the feedback. I hope to use the best of the photos, and captions, in the article itself someday. Radvo (talk) 14:01, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:BRD is a valid approach. Try making an edit to the main page you think is an improvement. If other editors disagree, they will revert, and explain their reason.
- Always base your edits to main pages on a direct summary or quote from a reliable source.
- As much as possible, reference policies and guidelines in your talk page posts. Policies and guidelines govern content and editors, representing broadly acceptable community consensus.
- Above all, be brief in your talk page posts. Suggest a specific edit, identify the source that verifies it, and if necessary, the policy or guideline that supports the change. However, my personal preference is to try out edits via WP:BRD first, it's much faster and saves a lot of unnecessary discussion.
- Note that my vulgarity was because I was angry that you continued to link to sites advocating child rape. This is utterly unacceptable. Cease to link to these pages and the vulgarity also ceases. I rarely use profanity on wikipedia, but pro-pedophilia activity and sites are one of the few absolute limitations on wikipedia with zero-tolerance within the broader community - something I heartily endorse. Swearing got your attention, your latest posts on the talk pages didn't link to pro-pedophilia sites, so the issue is resolved and I have no doubt you will find my ongoing comments much more civil. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 14:05, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Re: "I do prefer to write one longer piece that a few shorter ones" - How about one short one? Simply taking out all the repetition would get you a lot of the way there -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Notifications
It's generally considered polite to notify other editors if they are being discussed, see WP:NOTIFY. In addition, per WP:TALKNEW, normally one would not name another editor in section headings. I've notified Herostratus. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 22:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for these two WP: notices and for notifying Herostratus for me. Obviously, he should know I know and have reported it. I appreciate. Lots to learn.Radvo (talk) 00:27, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, there is a lot to learn, which is why I keep giving advice. Honestly, you will have a much, much easier time if you take it - I'm not baiting or misleading you with any of it, I'm simply saying what I think you should do, give 5 years experience and 49,000 edits. You can also read this essay which may contain more general advice. If you want more helpful advice, I would either flat-out delete or heavily edit this posting. It is accusatory, assumes bad faith, demands the page ban of another editor, accuses other editors of conspiracy, claims we are working against consensus (when, since we consistently cite policies and sources, we are both contributing to the local consensus on the Rind page, and invoking the broader consensus of the community at large, vis. the policies and guidelines), brings in several utterly irrelevant issues (why does it matter that Hero used to be an administrator, or that he was involved with WP:PAW?) and generally doesn't make much sense. I predict your commentary will either be ignored, or you'll find our interpretation of things to be endorsed.
- A point regarding conspiracies - if a whole bunch of people are working against you, there are two possible interpretations. One is conspiracy. The second is that a whole bunch of people independently think your actions are not helping wikipedia. I suggest the latter is the correct interpretation. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:simple/complex 02:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Legal advise from UK. I read message.
Hi Attorney: Your message raised the issue of verbal abuse in a dramatic way. I felt your solidarity. "Piranhas" in your e-mail address was a funny touch. If we are verbally abused enough, we become like piranhas ourselves, ready to bite, and tear apart whoever is nearby. Find a way to better incorporate yourself within the legal system, if possible, and live well. Don't hurt those institutions that would be your friends. Thank you for reaching out to me with your unique offer to help. That was the best you could do from that distance. I assume you will check to see if I received your message. So here it is. Good luck with your law practice. Radvo (talk) 00:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- It looks like you have received an email from a known troll. I hope you don't mind, but I have mentioned this at ANI (permalink) because the email part is new. Johnuniq (talk) 01:48, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Your recent edits
Hello. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. You could also click on the signature button or located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when they said it. Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 22:11, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Procedures
Please try a different approach at Talk:Rind et al. controversy. Apparently you are frustrated about something, and are expressing your thoughts on that page. However, the article in question is just one of many hundreds of contentious articles where teams of people bicker and edit war for months, and some thought will show that, for all its faults, Wikipedia must have procedures that eventually deal with disruption. Please be aware that while editors are absurdly tolerant of bad behavior (such as repeatedly posting messages that are not focused on actionable improvements to the article), eventually repercussions do occur. I am taking the time to write this in the hope that you will likewise take the time to listen to some of the advice that has been offered because the current activity is not going to succeed. Johnuniq (talk) 11:17, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I am keeping a log of advise for new comers based on personal experience here as a new comer myself. This is the very beginning of a draft I plan to offer to new comers here, and this will be collaboratively revised in accordance to Wiki policies over time. Feel free to contribute to improve this welcome letter.
Moved this from Rind talk page
Welcome to Rind et al. Controversy.
We are glad to get new editors here. We are waiting here to welcome you to build a working quorum. Sometimes things go very well, and good work gets done.
But sometimes this work space hobbles along like in a Fascist State. Some things you write may be against some Wiki policy or rule, but minor, and even not so minor, violations of the spirit and letter of the rules and policies (many you don't even know about) are routinely accepted and ignored by the cabal of experienced editors (who are loosely connected to the Pedophile Article Watch). As in the Fascist State, there are always party members who are looking for those who are not good Wikipedians, not good "Communists" or good "Nazi's". Whatever. As long as the old timers like you and your edits conform to their party line you will be fine. But piss off the wrong old time editor with some loose words and bang, you've just broken six Wikipedia policies and rules, and you will be accused of being a child rapist before breakfast. Since there are no children here, and none want to come here, it's kind of hard for the old timers to make the change stick. But it works to get rid of some people. Your status as a rapist may be bluntly announced, unless I can bully the old timers out of this obnoxious custom here. There are at least 70 Watchers for this ordinarily low traffic page, and some watchers may be very much a part of this quaint custom here.
Follow the rules as strictly as you can. No copyright violations. No sock puppeting. Verify everything you edit that is potentially controversial with reference to a particular page in a scholarly article. Keep a careful log, off Wikipedia, of how you are treated and how the old timers allow each other to violate the rules within reason. When editors here are themselves brought before the administration, they usually do not fare well. I do not expect to last long here, but I could be wrong about that.
It used to be black and white in policy that speculating that someone is a child rapist in this space was not acceptable here by law and by Wikipedia policy, but there is no policy forbidding the unspoken paranoia in the editor cabal that hangs heavy here. And it leaks out. Allegations concerning pedophilia can be extremely damaging, and editors should therefore remain civil and avoid engaging in speculative public accusation. Pedophilia is defined loosely depending on the context that suits the prevailing ends. It's best to never use the word. The official Wikipedia policy might be connected to a much older rule that goes back thousands of years: one version of this archetypal rule is "Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbor." Expect so-called "Pedophile Article Watch" editors, who are constantly on the watch or prowl, to make accusations, both before and after you are eased out or banned from here. The old timers will justify such loose talk to themselves and others by some kind of wiki-mumbo jumbo about "protecting children" in this workspace. There are not children here! (Very few adults understand meta-analysis and even fewer children do; this board is about a controversy about a meta-analysis). I have been repeatedly exposed to vulgar talk about child rape, speculating in code, without directly accusing, or they know something about me. It's part of the harrassment we are trying to bring under control here. Expect the NAMBLA question to come up within the first two months. Some editors are strangely obsessed with NAMBLA and one editor here openly claiming that Dr. Rind was condemned by the U.S. Congress primarily because something Dr. Rind wrote 14 years ago was warmly reviewed by the NAMBLA website. Billions of children live of less than a dollar a day, but the massive HARM this does to BILLIONS of them is ignored as unimportant harm. The fetish with some here is with preventing child rape.
The understanding of law and order here is ludicrous, something like the understanding people have in formerly Communist or Fascist State. Suspicion and speculation itself (without any suggestion of evidence), as in a Fascist State, does damage to your reputation and self esteem, and, if you are not somewhat thick skinned, you will be eased out one way or another. You are, after all, a volunteer doing Wikipedia a favor. You want to have a good experience. I am still learning. Maybe I will become like them if I hang around much longer.
While they feel free to find excuse to suspect you are a pedophile, they are very sensitive about being suspected of being one themselves. Never do this, even when provoked.
No one has to tolerate insult or defamation. You come as a volunteer. If this pattern continues, I will work with you to find ways to resist the fetish.
It would be a lot easier and more enjoyable for new comers here to work first on establishing a genuine respect for Wikipedia rules and policies. Then the project space work can begin and friendly old timers can show you the rules. An alternative would be to focus some effort to driving away old timers who do not operate within the letter and spirit of the policies and rules, and who refuse to do any homeowrk. If you would enjoy such a game, I invite you to collaborate with other editors here who know and respect the rules and policies.
There is another matter. If you do not understand meta-analysis, if you are not willing to read scholarly articles, and newspaper and magazine accounts of the controversy, you may not be helpful here. The work here demands a lot of very careful study and patience. There is a measure of competence and expertise and respect for the scientific process required to edit this page. If you believe that the scientific process has brough on much of the social ills of the world, you may survive here better if you believe that science will also get us out of some of the mess we are now in.
Further editing when I get the time. --Radvo (talk) 00:52, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- As you can see, I've removed this from the Rind talk page. It's completely unacceptable to post that kind of thing there - surely you must be aware of this. It's clear to me that the patience of your fellow editors is wearing thin in regards to your use of talk pages. You have been advised to read the talk page guidelines but I can only assume you have not done so. If you cannot use talk pages appropriately, your editing may be restricted in that area. OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 04:39, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- My answer to your request to restore this to the Rind talk page is 100% no. The very first thing on WP:TPG reads: "The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page (accessible via the talk or discussion tab) is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject." The second sentence there is precisely what your post is, your views on a subject. Your post had absolutely no place there. This page is for editors to discuss the article and the article only, it's also a good place for our readers to come to see what work needs to be done/is being done on the article. To clarify further, your post was a) off-topic and therefore belonged in userspace and not article space and b) as Johnuniq said, of a battlefield mentality, therefore I believe I had acceptable grounds to move it to your talkpage (see the talk page guidelines). Please do not continue to speak about it on the Rind talk page. If you wanted other editor's opinion on something other than the Rind article itself you should ask elsewhere. OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 03:20, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Some clarifications
I would like to clarify some matters regarding our discussions at Talk:Rind et al. controversy. I know that it is very hard for people new to Wikipedia to accept, but I am one of many editors who have no ill feelings, and who are very hard to offend, and who are trying hard to not offend others unduly. I added "unduly" because plain speaking is very important at Wikipedia—there is no point phrasing a comment so politely that it is misunderstood, and there is no point hiding a problem. Accordingly I know that some are offended by what I have done or written, but that outcome is never my intention—any offense is an unfortunate by-product of my agenda, namely to defend the encyclopedia. Please take me exactly as I appear, namely, an experienced editor who is trying to recommend certain procedures at the article talk page. As a working hypothesis, imagine that what I have written about Wikipedia's procedures is correct, and consider how the activity at the talk page looks to me: if I am correct, it follows that several responses to me have been inappropriate. Notice that at no stage have I attempted to obstruct you or your edits—if I am correct, all I have done is to recommend proper use of the talk page (and I have obstructed some of your comments). Try me out—instead of trying to teach me Wikipedia's policies, ask for advice if a procedural problem arises. I have no agenda other than trying to assist the encyclopedia.
I just looked at your contributions to see the areas in which you edit. That led me to look at User:Radvo/sandbox (permalink). I understand that you are just preparing some thoughts—that's fine. However, a better strategy at Wikipedia is to respond directly to issues—if I say X and Y, you might say that X is not correct because the wording of [something] contradicts it, and that Y indicates I have failed to read [something] because if I had I would know that so-and-so says Y is wrong. Direct and plain talk is how things progress.
There is one point from the sandbox that needs a response: you quoted me as saying "a trivial matter". Are you referring to my comment "It's a trivial issue, but FYI what I said was 100% accurate."? If so, I was saying that I wanted to raise a trivial issue, namely that my comment about edits by a sockpuppet was correct (and I continued with a brief explanation). I have never referred to anything connected with the article as "trivial". Again, the sooner the side issues are ignored (things like my "agenda", who said what, sockpuppets, and Wikipedia's policies), the sooner any content issues will be resolved. By the way, please never repeat the term "legally actionable" as that sets off alarm bells among onlookers—I can see what you are getting at (although why you don't just use plain language to say what you think should be changed eludes me), but many people might interpret such comments as conflicting with WP:NLT, and that is a hard rule which is strictly enforced (I will explain why, if you like, but please take my advice and don't say anything which could be misconstrued along legal lines). Johnuniq (talk) 10:04, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
- Erm, this is not good: "Dr. Rind and I do not agree that these matters are trivial, as they are legally actionable." (This is taken from here; this is a userpage sandbox so I'm not sure it has the same standing as something posted to an active page, but it probably does, at least technically.) Your exact meaning is not clear and I assume that you're just posturing, but one interpretation is that Dr Rind is preparing or at least considering legal action against the Wikimedia Foundation. Whether this is true or not and whether or not you are qualified to speak for Dr Rind in these matters I don't know, but you should probably be pretty careful about making statement like this, see WP:LEGALTHREAT, thanks. Herostratus (talk) 04:02, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
ANI
Sorry to inform you but I have made a thread at ANI about your recent post to the Rind talk page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Talk:Rind_et_al._controversy_and_user:_Radvo_consistently_failing_to_comply_with_talk_page_guidelines OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 04:16, 8 February 2012 (UTC)