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::Most importantly, lets keep the tmjd discussion on the tmjd talk page. We want all readers to have the full conversation available in one place for easy review and understanding. [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC) |
::Most importantly, lets keep the tmjd discussion on the tmjd talk page. We want all readers to have the full conversation available in one place for easy review and understanding. [[User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC) |
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I now count 3 episodes of inciviity/personal attack towards myself - [[Talk:Temporomandibular_joint_disorder#comment_by_David_Ruben]] where you questioned anyone but a Dentist would treat TMJ and ''"anyone but a dentist would have deleted technical content on the basis of alleged personal experience"'', your edit summary comment and the subsequent posting to my talk page. So, official tag added above, I explain why I disagree with the allegations you posted and the continued personal attacks. |
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* My previous posting was composed of two parts - a notice of content discussion on an article's talk page (to which I had posted for discussion to be held there). Secondly a complaint about the personal attack, which seemed best on your talk page - as this had attacked my credibility, I indicated my reasoning for grouping like conditions atypical musculoskeletal pains together - this was not done instead of holding content discussion on the article’s talk page. |
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* You alleged on my talk page ''" You have been repeatedly deleting and obscuring the back pain symptom from the tmjd page"''. Yet as, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=65415976&oldid=65386269 this edit] shows, "backache" was not deleted, just I just joined upper-backache and lower-backache into one sentence – that is not deleting. |
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* re ''"It is long since time you got some sources for your repeated edits"'' - does one really need a source to change "* Upper backache * Lower backache" into a sentence as ".. upper or lower backache" ? |
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* re ''"You demanded I produce a source, and I immediately did, yet you continue to delete/obsure the fully sourced fact"'' - no information deleted, just collated together as a sentence. |
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* re ''"ignorant general practitioner (i.e."no dental training whatsoever" (talk at DavidRuben 23:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC))"'' - is a further personal attack. The wording I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Temporomandibular_joint_disorder&diff=prev&oldid=55644908 actually] described myself was "a humble General Practitioner" and "Whilst we have no specialised knowledge and certainly do not have any dental equipment..." which is not that same as having no "training whatsoever". Similarly I have not been trained as an Endocrinologist specialist, yet majority of diabetics will be successfully managed exclusively by a Primary Care Multidisciplinary Team via General Practice in the UK and need never be seen by a hospital specialist. There is much I have not received training on - orthodontics, ophthalmic optician skills in precisely assessing vision and the writing out of a lens prescription, nor indeed of glass grinding to make a lens. Yet I can measure far-vision acuity, and recognise a child who only gets headaches sitting at the back of the class as needing to see their optician - so lack of training in a field to specialist level does not mean "ignorant". |
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* re ''"whose experience consists of little else than the six or so clients he sees a year seeking pain relief"'' - is further personal attack as to my credibility. Yes this is significant experience, (''"Facial pain is a relatively frequent cause of presentation to both general medical and dental practitioners"'' PMID 16113700) - but "relative" does not mean huge “frequency”, and certainly is not dissimilar to the number of patients who present with new onset of chest pain [[angina]] each year, certainly more than the number of cases of confirmed acute appendicitis. [[User:Davidruben|David Ruben]] <sup> [[User talk:Davidruben|Talk]] </sup> 01:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:57, 24 July 2006
Welcome!
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You appear to be a Catholic and pro-life. So am I. Let me know if I can help you at any time.--File Éireann 11:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
There is a full copy of the file available at User:Brendanconway/temporary. Let me know when you have finished viewing it so it can be re-deleted.--File Éireann 23:55, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
"Category:Traditionalist Catholics and Category:Catholic Traditionalism are not the same thing. See Talk:Traditionalist Catholics "move article proposal". Why try to obfuscate and confuse things by trying to merge two distinct categories? pat8722 17:39, 19 January 2006 (UTC)"
- See WP:FAITH and WP:ATTACK. --Samuel J. Howard 11:15, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Your votes on categories for deletion
I'm rather confused by where you have voted "keep, but move to a list." Are you trying to say that a list article should be maintained in lieu of a category? In that case, you should be voting "listify and delete," to create a list article based on the entries in the category, and then to delete the category after that list has been created. Please remember that delete decisions on CFD are only about whether a category of a certain title and organizing principle should be kept, not a decision as to whether any information should be documented on Wikipedia at all. This is one reason why your "censorship" claims are particularly out of place there. Postdlf 20:31, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
This conversation is continued on Postdlf's talk page. pat8722 21:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
Shhhhhhhhh
- Delete. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 19:13, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
- A mere vote has absolutely no place/no relevance on this page. This page is for discussion/consensus building. If you feel the information should be deleted, tell us why... pat8722 22:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
- Shh.... admins know that and would have ignored his "vote". Some people think they can just vote and have it matter. You're just goading him to provide justification, which he'll do now that you've challenged him.Yeago 03:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
- A mere vote has absolutely no place/no relevance on this page. This page is for discussion/consensus building. If you feel the information should be deleted, tell us why... pat8722 22:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Controversial television shows
You will need to ask the admin who closed it, not me, why he chose to do so. Also, if you disagree with the descision, and it certainly appears that you do, your next step would be to take the action to Wikipedia:Deletion review, which is the location for such things. - TexasAndroid 18:44, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
- Huh? Were articles actually deleted? I see no sign of this. If true, that would be a major violation. However a spot check of several of the articles from the category shows they still exist. So I'm not sure what you are now saying has happened. - TexasAndroid 19:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
This conversation is continued on TexasAndroid's talk page. pat8722 01:23, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Bisexual actors
Hi, there is a bit of a debacle occuring in relation to bisexual allegations in Tyrone Power's article- I would appreciate your viewpoint at Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-03-03_Tyrone_Power. Thanks Arniep 16:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
The issues over libertarianism
My talk page
Please stop re-adding material to my talk page, unless you have something new to say William M. Connolley 11:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Repeated, with a caution regarding WP:NPA which can get you blocked again William M. Connolley 14:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
The impact of warnings, whether founded or not
As you have been spending so much time on the vandalism page lately, I am sure you saw that removing warnings such as No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA, above) constitutes a form of vandalism. KillerChihuahua?!? 18:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Please do not remove warnings from your talk page or replace them with offensive content. Blanking your talk page will not remove the warnings from the page history. If you continue to blank your talk page, you will lose your privilege of editing your talk page. Thanks. JoshuaZ 19:47, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
This is your last warning. Removing warnings from your talk page is considered vandalism. You will be blocked from editing Wikipedia and your talk page will be protected from editing if you do it again. JoshuaZ 19:53, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Please refer me to the policy that says unfounded warnings cannot be removed from talk pages. Unfounded warnings are vandalism are they not? The dispute with connelley began when he blocked me for removing vandalism from the Libertarianism page. See the discussion at Wikipedia:Vandalism (April 2006) at paragraph "what does 'nonsense' mean?" and see the Talk:Libertarianism page at "the most accurate definition should be used" (March 2006), and see User talk:William M. Connolley's talk page (he does lots of deletes, so you may have to really look hard for it). I did not lodge a personal attack against connelley in accusing him of abusing his admin powers, I merely stated fact, so his complaint on my talk page was itself nonsense, and subject to deletion under the wikipedia: vandalism policy. You have got to look at "what happened" to determine "who" is the vandal, and you are merely siding with "a friend", without performing "fact checking". Anyway, for those who come here, at present there is no reasonable way to prevent vandalism on the libertarian page. The definition of libertarianism is " Libertarianism is a political philosophy advocating the right of individuals to be free to do whatever they wish with their person or property, as long it allows others the same liberty. Another way to state this is, 'Libertarianism is a moral and political philosophy under which the individual is free to do whatever he wishes with his person or property, as long as whatever he wishes to do with his person or property allows others to do whatever they wish with their person or property, respectively.' This includes not initiating, or threatening to initiate, physical force against those who have not violated this doctrine, nor fraud against anyone. Libertarianism has as it's predicate that no one want to be physically forced, or threatened with physical force, or defrauded." Should any reader wish to join me in reverting from the CIRCULAR (i.e. NONSENSE) definitions of RJII, Serge Issakov, Rhobite, and DocGov, please post here. At present, it appears to be a matter of whose got the most reverting power, as to whether or not NONSENSE can be removed from wikipedia without 3rr blocking. pat8722 20:22, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
- Please see Talk page vandalism in Wikipedia:Vandalism#Types of vandalism. My interpretation of that paragraph is that it would be bad form, and grounds for assuming bad faith on your part, for you to remove any warnings from your talk page while a dispute is ongoing, and for some time afterwards. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 21:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
DBAD
Please read m:Don't be a dick (In this case we can mean dick to mean head louse rather than penis), so give it a break, please. It is boring. — Dunc|☺ 21:00, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
If I delete the above profanity, I have no doubt JoshuaZ will block me from editing my own talk page; that's probably why it was put there. We can certainly see the character of my opposition. I am trying to find out how to stop JoshuaZ from blocking me, or how to revert his block if he does, and am relatively new to wikipedia. Any pointers would be appreciated. pat8722 21:32, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
- Well, you've been here for four months, so I'd gather you'd've run across this issue before. Also, given that the DBAD link left by Dunc is a standard Wikipedia "advice" ref, calling it obscentity seems a bit silly. •Jim62sch• 01:03, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
By the way, I'm not an admin. The simplest way of handling this is to not modify your talk page when people say things you don't like or when they come from people you don't like. JoshuaZ 21:39, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
You wouldn't have threatened me with blocking me from editing my own talk page unless you had an admin crony ready to do so. As I stated, I have no doubt you would have your crony block me if I reverted the above profanity. I still do not see the means for preventing the abuse of those who follow all wikipedia rules, by those who want to change wikipedia policy regarding vandalism,and to vandalize talk pages. pat8722 21:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
- I suggest you calmly and rationally attempt to discuss the changes you want on the relevant talk page of libertarionism. Try a bit more of that and it might lead somewhere. Typing in all caps and making complains about "cabals" and "admin cronies" doesn't accomplish anything. JoshuaZ 21:59, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
You just repeatedly prove you have not investigated anything. As stated above, all you would have to do is review the discussion at Wikipedia:Vandalism (April 2006) at paragraph "what does 'nonsense' mean?" and the Talk:Libertarianism page at "the most accurate definition should be used" (March 2006), and User talk:William M. Connolley's talk page, and you would know that everything has been discussed and everything I have alleged is true. You deal with generalities, not facts, so there is really no point to your further comments. It is unfortunate that we now require grammarians to tell us what "nonsense" means, but hopefully they will contribute at Wikipedia:Vandalism as they have been asked to do. pat8722 22:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
- Notice please that I said "a bit more of that" which generally implies more of the same. And as I remarked earlier, what is nonsense has nothing to do with grammarians anyways. You may want to read among other things wikilawyering. JoshuaZ 22:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
- A brief stroll through WP:CIVIL mightn't be a bad idea either. And from a common-sense perspective, the "crony" comment probably wasn't the wisest thing you could have written •Jim62sch• 01:05, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
Re: Talk page vandalism
In general, users are encouraged not to remove warnings from their talk page or even to selectively remove critical comments. Restoring the warnings is not considered vandalism on Wikipedia. Nevertheless, I do not intend to revert again; you may decide how you wish to respond to the apparently numerous complaints against your behavior. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
[02]:The nastiness/vandalism on my talk page is caused by "piling on", such as you did, which is really evidence of the bad behavior wikipedia presently permits. Were you a "knowledge seeker", you would have read the talk pages at [[Talk: Wikipedia:Vandalism]] (April 2006) at paragraph "what does 'nonsense' mean?" and the Talk:Libertarianism page at "the most accurate definition should be used" (March 2006), and User talk:William M. Connolley's talk page, before involving yourself in the dispute, and would have contributed constructively on those pages.pat8722 15:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
- I see no evidence of vandalism on your talk page. In addition, the "piling on" you describe seems to be caused be your poor interactions and lack of civility with other editors; as you encounter other editors, you draw them into your conflict. Certainly the hostility you seem to be displaying now will provoke, not assuage, conflict. But in any case, it is not my concern. Just because I seek knowledge doesn't mean I seek it indiscriminately. I am not involved in your libertarianism dispute; I don't believe I have ever read or edited the article, and I have no idea what the nature of your argument is with the other editors. Nor am I interested. While I might gain some marginal knowledge by reading those talk pages, there are other far more productive ways for me to seek knowledge and I doubt I would gain much by contributing. I find no value to involving myself in your dispute. If this is how you interact with other editors, you will find it difficult to get your point across. — Knowledge Seeker দ 19:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
[04]You make no sense. If you didn't read the related pages which triggered the "piling on" by "friends of friends" resulting in the profanity on my talk page, you are just doing more "mindless piling on" of your own. Since you say you didn't have the time to investigate the related pages, you had no business "piling on". pat8722 22:37, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sorry I'm not being clear. I noticed the edits while doing recent changes patrol. I saw an editor removing warnings from several administrators, and so reverted the change. I feel the edit was mindless nor inappropriate. What precisely do you mean by "piling on"? That I should not have restored the warning since there were several others already restoring the warnings? I do think that your strong and sustained reaction to a single edit is unusual and a bit disturbing. — Knowledge Seeker দ 22:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
[06]"Piling on" means doing reverts or issuing warnings without investigating the claims that the reverts were reverts of vandalism, which warnings made in bad faith and against wiki rules are.pat8722
- I see. I was unfamiliar with this definition of "piling on". In that case, no I was not piling on; I did investigate your claim of vandalism but I see no evidence of vandalism on your talk page. I don't believe any of the warnings were made in bad faith, nor do I see that they were against Wikipedia rules. Even if so, I cannot see how they could qualify for any of the criteria at Wikipedia:Vandalism. — Knowledge Seeker দ 23:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
[08]But at paragraph 3, you said you didn't, and I believe you at paragraph 3.pat8722 23:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
- I seem to be a bit confused. As far as I can tell, you are discussing two types of vandalism. I see that you've been discussing with other editors something about circular logic and nonsense being vandalism. That's the area I didn't look into, and that's why I said I was unaware of the details of your argument with the other editors when I mentioned it in my second reply. As I understand it, the vandalism you recently mentioned to me was vandalism on your talk page, in the form of warnings placed on your talk page. This of course I did investigate, and as I noted then and more recently, I see no evidence of vandalism on your talk page. — Knowledge Seeker দ 00:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- [10]You are not confused, Knowledge Seeker, not even a bit. --Serge 00:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[11]Like you just said, the area you didn't look into is the area I had alleged shows I was reverting vandalism, and warnings against reverting vandalism, are vandalism. You didn't investigate what was necessary to determine whether the warnings on my page were warranted, therefore you merely "piled on".pat8722 01:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- "...warnings against reverting vandalism, are vandalism." I believe this statement to be inaccurate and inconsistent with Wikipedia:Vandalism. Your claim that not "[investigating] what was necessary to determine whether the warnings on my page were warranted" is piling on is inconsistent with your earlier statement that "doing reverts...without investigating claims that the reverts were reverts of vandalism" is piling on. If the former, then yes, I was piling on, since I did not investigate whether the warnings were warranted. If the latter, then no, I was not piling on, since I reverted while investigating your claim that such your reverts were reverts of vandalism. In either case, I'm not certain I see how this is important. — Knowledge Seeker দ 02:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[13]Warnings against reverting vandalism, are vandalism, and it is "piling on" to assist in keeping unwarranted warnings on a talk page. You have no interest in truth, and you are really wasting your time on my talk page.pat8722 02:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- You are welcome to use your own definition of vandalism if you like, but don't expect that I will use it in that sense or that Wikipedia policy will use it in that sense. You feel the warnings were unwarranted; the administrators who left them feel they were warranted. So perhaps I was piling on, according to your idiosyncratic definition. If by no interest in truth you mean that I am not interested in determining whether you are correct in the arguments you have been making regarding libertarianism then you are correct. You are probably correct that I am wasting my time, but I do feel obligated to reply to complaints that people bring me. — Knowledge Seeker দ 03:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[15]I use the term "vandalism" as it is defined on the Wikipedia:Vandalism page. And you agree that you "pile on", keeping badfaith warnings on talk pages without investigating whether the warning was badfaith.pat8722 12:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- [16]Just which type of vandalism, as defined on that page, do you think has been committed against your talk page? -- Donald Albury(Talk) 14:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[17]As described above.pat8722 19:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- [18]As you are not answering my question, I guess that means you can't actually find what you call vandalism in the policy. Now, please stop calling things vandalism when you can't even cite what kind of vandalism they are. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 23:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[19]"The most common type of vandalism is the ... insertion ... nonsense". 3rr warnings for the reversion of vandalism is "nonsense", at best.pat8722 00:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- If you wish to convince me of that, perhaps you could quote the appropriate section, since I'm not seeing it. Yes, I agreed that I did not investigate the merit of the warnings; we discussed this several days ago. — Knowledge Seeker দ 16:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[21]Convince you of what? And yes, we are agreed you "piled on". As you said, we've discussed this already.pat8722 19:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- That that the edits you claim as vandalism are consistent with the term vandalism as it is used in Wikipedia. I guess I was unclear why you were telling me that when I already told it to you; I couldn't understand your purpose. But if you don't have any new points to make, then I will consider this matter resolved. — Knowledge Seeker দ 20:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
[23]"The most common type of vandalism is the ... insertion ... nonsense". Read the relevant pages, as cited above.pat8722 00:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- Don't be ridiculous. The "warnings against reverting vandalism" may be unwarranted but they certainly are not nonsense. — Knowledge Seeker দ 01:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
[25]Reread paragraphs 6 through 19. "The most common type of vandalism is the ... insertion ... nonsense". 3rr warnings for the reversion of vandalism is "nonsense", at best. And do not remove numbers from my talk page. pat8722 00:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC).
- [26]Also, please read Wikipedia:Patent nonsense, which is what Wikipedia:Nonsense redirects to. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 01:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- Please do not add numbers or qualifiers to my comments. Three-revert rule warnings are not nonsense as defined on Wikipedia (see Wikipedia:Nonsense). As I said before, you may use your own definitions of terms, but you should not expect that other Wikipedians share those definitions or that our policies will share them. — Knowledge Seeker দ 02:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- You should not alter others' comments, even on your talk page. You may add numbers to your talk page but please do not add them in a manner that alters others' comments. I apologize for not being clear. You are free to define the terms as you wish, as long as you realize these aren't considered vandalism on Wikipedia. Do you have any other points or objections to make? — Knowledge Seeker দ 03:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed, perhaps I do. If the paragraph numbering is that important to you, please feel free to restore it. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- Please make yourself very clear. Have you come to understand that adding paragraph numbers is not "altering others' comments"? I want to be certain, before I restore the paragraph numbers to your comments, that you will not be blocking me again. I think I understand you, but I want to be certain. pat8722
On April 13, while purporting to remove mere paragraph numbers, knowledge seeker REMOVED CONTENT, in the form of the following two paragraphs 29 and 30, which he removed entirely from this page.
- [29]I have not "altered your comments". Adding numbers is just good formatting, and does not at all alter the substance of what you have said. Do not remove them. You really need some help in basic logic.pat8722 03:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- [30]Also, please read Wikipedia:Patent nonsense, which is what Wikipedia:Nonsense redirects to. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 01:09, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
[31]Well, what we see at the Wikipedia:Nonsense page is that the nonsense advocates have a substantial foothold in the wikipedia policy pages, as the Wikipedia:vandalism page says nonsense is vandalism, and the Wikipedia:Nonsense page says it isn't. So we see that the "nonsense" people have even turned the vandalism and nonsense pages into nonsense. So you've really got to use your brain. pat8722 02:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you've got yourself turned around. Wikipedia:Vandalism says that nonsense is vandalism. You are correct on this point. However, Wikipedia:Nonsense doesn't not say that nonsense is not vandalism as you assert. Rather, it says that vandalism is not nonsense. It's the other way around. You see? — Saxifrage ✎ 00:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
[33]The nonsense page states under "Not to be confused with", that "vandalism" is not "nonsense". And if A is not B, then B is not A, under the elementary rules of logic. You are just aserting more "nonsense" by stating otherwise.pat8722 20:13, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Pat, you have made a logical error. This is a version of Affirming the Consequent. It is a logical fallacy to say -- If A then B. B. Therefore A. It is ALSO a logical fallacy to say If A then not B. B. Therefore Not A. --Blue Tie 21:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
- [33.2] Blue Tie, you're a dangerous fellow if you think that the fallacy of "If A then B. B. Therefore A" and "If A then not B. B.Therefore Not A" imply a fallacy in "If A is not B, then B is not A". Review your lessons in set theory, before attempting to edit any more wiki pages that require an understanding of basic logic.pat8722 00:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
- You are incorrect. Your statement is the logical equivalent of "If A then Not B. B. Therefore Not A". (And this is, in fact, the argument you made). However, let's suppose that you are right, that I have mistated your case. You claim that "If A is not B then B is not A". That is a logical fallacy. Even Set Theory, applied to logic, would not support your view, as the classical case of "If (A) a Car is not (B) a Ford then (B) a Ford is not (A) a Car" demonstrates. (This is an example of your fallacy and an example of "Patent Nonsense". --Blue Tie 02:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well, Wikipedia's definition is broader than yours and includes the following: "Content that, while apparently meaningful after a fashion, is so completely and irredeemably confused that no intelligent person can be expected to make any sense of it whatsoever." Anyway, I was sort of trying to be funny by connecting the argument to the topic. I guess it was not successful. Perhaps if I had added a smilie. :-) --Blue Tie 15:51, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- [34]All the nonsense page says, in clarifying the scope of the policy page for patent nonsense, is that vandalism is not patent nonsense, and that one should refer to the vandalism page for policy on that issue. In other words, there is patent nonsense, and there is vandalism, they are distinct, and each has its own policy page. None of this precludes the fact that some nonsense is vandalism, and some vandalism is nonsense. But not all vandalism is nonsense, and not all nonsense is necessarily vandalism. Most importantly, patent nonsense is not vandalism. Capiche? --Serge 20:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, no, you're applying otherwise-good logic after getting the English reading wrong, which never ends well. The vandalism policy say, "all nonsense is vandalism": you are still correct. What the nonsense page is saying is, "not all vandalism is nonsense". Those are not contradictions. You can't use basic (propositional) logic when you're dealing with categories—you have to use first-order logic. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:06, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Where does the vandalism policy say that "all nonsense is vandalism"? If it does, it's wrong, for, if nothing else, there is most certainly such a thing as inadvertent nonsense, which by definition is not vandalism (vandalism implies malicious intent, which cannot be inadvertent). Therefore, not all nonsense is necessarily vandalism. --Serge 21:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
- Good point. I was referring to the quote provided by Pat8722 several times above, which upon closer reading is merely part of the introduction rather than the definition of vandalism. Well then, the point that this user's interpretation of the policy is due to significant misreading is even more supported. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
We've never been talking about "inadvertent" nonsense. Neither of you is making a bit of sense.pat8722 00:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- The tangent about your misreading of policy pages is just a tangent. You're missing the original point. You said that adding "spurious" warnings to your page was nonsense. However, the fact is that it is not nonsense by Wikipedia's definition, and any other definition is irrelevant. Since it is not nonsense, your argument that "nonsense is vandalism" is also irrelevant. The warnings were placed here correctly. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Read paragraph 19 preceding. Adding baseless warnings to talk pages is nonsense. And putting nonsense on my talk page is vandalism. You have no foundation for your statement that the warnings "were place here correctly". Read all of the above. pat8722 14:32, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- 3RR warnings are not nonsense ever, even when spurious, by any definition that is relevant to the running of Wikipedia. Your argument's premise is false, therefore the argument is invalid. If you want to argue that they were place spuriously, that's something entirely different and an argument you'll lose for different reasons. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
3rr warnings are nonsense when they are baseless. Look up the meaning of nonsense in your dictionary. I was deleting NONSENSE.pat8722 20:16, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- As Knowledge Seeker has already said, you are welcome to use whatever definition of nonsense you like. However, your choice of definition does not effect how Wikipedia runs since it has its own definition for policy reasons. Per policy, 3RR notices are not nonsense even when baseless. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Everything I have said is consistent with wiki policy, and you have cited no policy to the contrary. Your choice of definition does not effect how Wikipedia runs, unless you are another strong-arm admin who doesn't follow policy.pat8722 21:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- Your understanding of the policy is faulty, so a claim that anything you've said is consistent with it is dubious at best. Am I the one who has several warnings that I may be imminently blocked? If it was actually easy to get one, everyone would have several. As it is, a quick application of critical thinking on your part might prove illuminating. However, my cluestick does not appear to be big enough for your particular case, so I will leave you be for now. — Saxifrage ✎ 05:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
As this episode shows, warnings are issued for reasons of cronyism and political biases and "piling on", having nothing whatsoever to do with any violation of wiki policy.pat8722 16:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
pro-life activism/tactics
please see the Talk:Pro-life activism page.--Andrew c 21:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Why Imacomp reverts
Mainly because he can. There is some old history going back on this page Catholicism and Freemasonry. He will try to trap you on the 3RR rule, so please watch reverts.
JASpencer 19:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello, my ears are burning... Imacomp 20:43, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think that another user's talk pages are the best place for this, but as you don't wish to respond to these questions anywhere else, I suppose this will have to be the place for a dialog.
- So why do you revert? Well (1) you have said that you belong to the "Reformed" tradition of Christianity, popularly known as Calvinism and (2) you are an active (and seemingly senior) Freemason. Now there is a conflict between a theologically exclusive reading of Christianity and the doctrinal indifference of Freemasonry. I think that you are clever enough to realise it - although I doubt that you acknowledge this contradiction to yourself. It is a black fear.
- To get round this black fear that you have to choose between your God and your friends you act in denial. Thus you try to shout down suggestions that there may be a conflict between Christian faith and your fraternity. You know inside yourself that this is false but as long as you shout it down you feel that you don't have to make the choice.
- You also over-compensate. What do Freemasonry and Calvinism have in common? They both are in conflict with the Catholic Church. So let's be more bigoted than thou.
- I do not dislike you Imacomp, I can see that you are a very troubled person who has to face either giving up your religion or an institution to which you have given a substantial part of your time. It's an identity crisis. If disruptive editing makes you feel better, then fine - but I really don't think that it will make this central decision go away.
- I hope you make the right decision and if you don't mind the presumption - I'll pray for you. JASpencer 14:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
- Er whatever... Imacomp 13:31, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Blocked
Pat8722's Reference Point [01] is here. pat8722 01:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
You have been temporarily blocked from editing for repeatedly altering others' comments. If you wish to make useful contributions, you may come back after the block expires. — Knowledge Seeker দ 03:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- [02]I have not "altered your comments". Adding numbers to paragraphs is just good formatting, and does not at all alter the substance of what you have said. Do not remove them. You really need some help in basic logic.pat8722 03:26, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
Pat8722's Reference Point [03] is here. pat8722 01:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed, perhaps I do. If the paragraph numbering is that important to you, please feel free to restore it. — Knowledge Seeker দ 05:04, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- [04]Please make yourself very clear. Have you come to understand that adding paragraph numbers is not "altering others' comments"? I want to be certain, before I restore the paragraph numbers to your comments, that you will not be blocking me again. I think I understand you, but I want to be certain. pat8722
Pat8722's Reference Point [05] is here. pat8722 01:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
No, I still believe that that behavior is inappropriate; however, if you wish to do it to my comments, I do not intend to block you for it. — Knowledge Seeker দ 01:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
[06]Let's make this clear, did you, or did you not, have a justifiable reason for blocking me for adding numbers to your paragraphs? And if you believe you did, then why are you now saying you won't do it again, if I do the exact same thing? You are making absolutely no sense at all. pat8722 23:58, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Pat8722's Reference Point [07] is here. pat8722 01:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, comment alteration is a justifiable reason for blocking. However, I later changed my mind and decided that if you really wanted the numbers, then it was acceptable to me. You were blocked for approximately one hour. What do you hope to gain from this prolonged conversation? I can restore the block, if consistency is that preferable to you. — Knowledge Seeker দ 01:21, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
[08]Altering comments is a crime. But I did not alter comments, all I did was insert paragarph numbers, which is merely formatting, and which any professional editor will tell you is not "altering comments". What did you mean following "reference point"[03] above, where you state "Indeed, perhaps I do." It makes it sound like you agreed you were wrong. User:Pat8722|pat8722]] 01:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
[09]Do you also consider the addition of "indents" to be "altering other's comments". If you are going to classify mere format changes as "altering others comments" you will have to be RFC'd and reported on the admin incident board when I have the time for it, as you definitely need to be stopped.pat8722 01:38, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- I was referring to your statement "You really need some help in basic logic", by which I meant that I could see your side of the argument and was willing to grant you latitude in restructuring your talk page; I wished to be polite and not argue with you over something so trivial. No, adjusting indents for clarity is expressly allowed and encouraged. I don't see that there is anything to be gained from further discussion. Your continued argument despite my agreement to follow your suggested course suggests you are more interested in trying to stir up trouble than to improve Wikipedia. I have already agreed with you that you may number the comments as you see fit. You may certainly file a request for comment or a notice on the administrators' noticeboard if you feel that would be beneficial. If you are busy, would you like me to do it for you? — Knowledge Seeker দ 02:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
[10]If you "agree that I may number the comments as I see fit", then you agree YOU SHOULDN"T HAVE BLOCKED ME. You owe me an apology. You are being logically inconsistent, and that is indicative of a very serious problem. pat8722 02:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. — Knowledge Seeker দ 02:57, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- Your numbering of comments is highly unusual, and I find it annoying. I can easily see how someone could view it as 'fiddling' with comments in a disruptive manner. Please drop this matter. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 12:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
'[12]Is there a policy that defines "fiddling" with comments? Is "indenting" "fiddling" with comments? Whatever are you talking about? And as I plan to pursue the block issue as to putting a paragraph number following the indent on a comment, would you please direct me to the policy page that you think presently permits blocking for "altering others comments", as I suspect that page, as it presently stands makes clear that adding paragraph numbers following an indent is definitely not defined as "altering comments", because it isn't.pat8722 13:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about policy, or guideline, or whatever. I'm talking about your apparant belligerent attitude. You're not going to win anything this way, and you're making it hard for anyone to see past your blustering to judge what you have contributed to Wikipedia. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 16:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
[14]I am merely insisting on truth and adherence to real wiki guidelines. Please respond to my question as to "the policy page that you think presently permits blocking for "altering others comments", as I suspect that page, as it presently stands makes clear that adding paragraph numbers following an indent is definitely not defined as "altering comments", because it isn't.pat8722 16:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- Let's say, hypothetically, that no such page exists and Knowledge Seeker was in the wrong. Hypothetically. What would you like to happen then? Because, if what you are hoping for is realistic, then this is a reasonable battle to fight, but if it's not realistic, this is a very silly effort you are making. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
You make no sense whatsoever. If you have an answer to my question at 14, please provide it, othewise, please waste your time elsewhere.pat8722 20:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- You are making an argument. I am guessing that the final purpose of the argument is not to have the question stated in your ¶14 answered and you want something else from this pursuit. I am curious what that final goal is, and perhaps to offer advice on how you can get there since your current method, I can say from experience, will never work. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Like I said, you make no sense. If you have an answer to my question at 14, please provide it, othewise, please waste your time elsewhere. pat8722 21:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
- Please read Wikipedia:Wikilawyering. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 22:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
Request for comment
A request for comment has been filed in response to your behavior on libertarianism. You are encouraged to respond at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Pat8722. Rhobite 14:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
requesting explanation for unfounded, unexplained block (made in violation of blocking policy)
I found the following message when I tried to edit today "Your user name or IP address has been blocked from editing. You were blocked by BorgHunter for the following reason (see our blocking policy): "Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Pat8722". The reason given for Pat8722's block is: "Gaming of the three revert rule. It is not an entitlement; it is rather an electric fence" Your IP address is 72.131.49.76. I have never gamed the three revert rule, and am entitled to a statement as to the factual basis upon which it is alleged I did, considering that I was reverting unilateral reversions that were made without addressing the outstanding questions stated on the talk page.pat8722 14:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- Your block has expired now, but I will indeed give you an explanation. You made 6 reverts in 24 and a half hours. That's textbook gaming of the 3RR rule. As for quote-unquote "unilateral" reversions, check your Request for Comment page. No one has agreed with your summary, but a number of people have agreed with the view opposing yours. I think you might be the one being unilateral here. —BorgHunter
ubx(talk) 15:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
[03]Your "explanation" of the block requires some explanation. Do you know what a "unilateral" reversion is? I was myself reverting a unilateral reversion, so my reversion was permitted under the wiki 3rr rules governing unilateral reversions. So do you agree that blocked me for a non-3rr issue? A reversion is forbidden when the reversion doesn't address the unanswered questions and concerns outstanding on the talk page, particularly where the reversion being reverted by me has been frequently made in the past without addressing the outstanding questions and concerns. Reversions of such unilateral reversions are permitted, which is all I did. My second question to you is: Did you read the full Talk:Libertarianism page before you blocked me? My third question to you is, were you a past participant on any of the talk pages concerning these disputes? My fourth question is, are you an associate of any of those who have previously participated? Your block of me was entirely against wiki policy. pat8722 17:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- You're not blocked anymore, man. Even if I were to somehow admit wrongdoing, what exactly do you expect I would do to rectify it? There is nothing more to be done. The matter is closed, and I have nothing more to add, except: Please don't revert war. Thanks. —BorgHunter
ubx(talk) 17:28, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- You're not blocked anymore, man. Even if I were to somehow admit wrongdoing, what exactly do you expect I would do to rectify it? There is nothing more to be done. The matter is closed, and I have nothing more to add, except: Please don't revert war. Thanks. —BorgHunter
- No, its not over. Unless you acquaint yourself with wiki policy and what I did for which you blocked me, you are likely to do the same. Three reverts a day are permitted, when that is the only way to get those who are NOT seeking consensus (by their failing to answer the outstanding questions and concerns) to seek consensus (by answering the outstanding questions and concerns.) If you follow wiki policy, eventually the others will engage in meaningful debate and we will resolve the dispute, or they will "give up" and go elsewhere where they will do less harm. So please assure me that will not block me again for using my daily alottment of three reverts, until paragraphs [113], [118], [224], [229], [231], and [235] are answered, as wiki policy required them to be. Please also answer my other questions, as it appears to me we have yet to see an unbiased person participate on the RFC page.pat8722 19:09, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Pat, I strongly urge you to stop this. You are not "allotted three reverts" during the course of the day, you are LIMITED to three reverts to prevent the exact same sort of revert-warring you are engaging in. Furthermore, you did violate the 3RR. BorgHunter legitimately blocked you for a short cool down period- after which you've chosen to violate Wikipedia's civility policy by calling him a "bully" and stating that "he is destroying wikipedia". You need to calm down and realize that you're not in the right here, and cool off a little. Daniel Davis 01:57, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The three-revert rule is not an entitlement, but an "electric fence"; the 3RR is intended to stop edit wars. It does not grant users an inalienable right to three reverts every 24 hours or endorse reverts as an editing technique. Persistent reversion remains strongly discouraged and is unlikely to constitute working properly with others. The fact that users may be blocked for excessive reverting does not imply that they will be blocked. Equally, reverting fewer than four times may result in a block depending on context.
If you find you have reverted a page even once in a day it may be a sign there is a problem and you should try dispute resolution, starting always with the article's talk page.
It is strongly reccomended that you revert any particular change once and only once (see Harmonious editing club).
Blocking is always preventative, not for punishment.
See WP:3RR for more details. Please do not revert war (at all), or you may be blocked again. Thanks. —BorgHunter ubx (talk) 01:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
- BorgHunter, when you added the minor "::" to my comments on your discussion page, you stated in the "edit summary" field the beligerent comment you should have stated in the discussion text, namely "Yes, the matter is closed. Mainly because I choose now to stop replying to it. Good day". That is not a rational response. You (and Daniel Davis above )are ignoring the KEY POINT, my reverts are ENTIREYLY CONSISTENT WITH ALL PRESENT WIKIPOLICY. It is those who revert my reverts WHO ARE NOT FOLLOWING WIKIPOLICY. Consistent with the approach of consensus building, I have posed questions to the reverters, which they are merely ignoring, choosing to make the forbidden unilateral reverts, instead. Therefore they are the ones wiki policy requires you to warn and block, not me. The only reason for the blocks of me have been political and the result of "piling on", where the admins doing the warning and blocking have not actually looked at the facts to determine whether has been going on, and who the policies should be enforced against. Three reverts a day of those who are unilaterally reverting my reversions, by failing to respond to the questions at paragraphs [113], [118], [224], [229], [231], and [235] is ENTIRELY CONSISTENT WITH PRESENT WIKI POLICY? Do you agree that a response to relevant questions is a necessary part of consensus building, and that without it, "consensus" is just the forbidden "vote" wikipedia: voting is evil. I would like your assurance that you will NOT block me for three reverts a day on the Libertarianism page, until my questions at paragarphs [113], [118], [224], [229], [231], and [235] on its talk page are answered by those who do the reverts.
- Without discussion on the points raised, do you agree that there is no consensus building, only bullyism?
- Please also answer the questions at paragraph [03] above, as you are looking like a classic bully admin who abuses his powers and should be stripped of that role. Is there any review process in wikipedia, for proposing that you be stripped of your admin powers for bullyism?pat8722 17:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- Just so you know, if you think that BorgHunter is abusing his powers, even if somehow you managed to get him stripped of those powers, pretty much every single one of the 900 Wikipedia administrators will tell you exactly the same thing: you have no entitlement to any number of reversions, and if you edit war, you'll be blocked with 3 or 2 or even 1 reversions if you act unpleasantly enough. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:05, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Pin down where an editor should be blocked for a single reversion, and you'll know why the other editors should have been blocked, not me, i.e. for making unilateral reversions, rather than engaging in consensus building. Borghunter stopped the revert war on the talk: Libertarianismpage by blocking the INNOCENT PARTY, by enforcing a mere vote (see wikipedia: voting is evil), rather than blocking the real offenders - those who are making unilateral reverts without responding to the outstanding questions on the talk page. To suppress the innocent party in a revert war simply because they are "outnumbered" would totally destroy the foundation of wikipedia. Borghunter has got to be reported.pat8722 20:40, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- So please do so. The proper place to do it is WP:RFC/USER#Use of administrator privileges. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 21:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
No, that doesn't appear to be the proper place. I have been referred to the arbitration page for action, and when time permits (which, unfortunately may be awhile), I will pursue this matter through the action channels I find recommended there. pat8722 21:38, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Would you like to comment on yet a new move proposal? Dominick (TALK) 15:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
What a dif is
A "dif" is a difference between two edits, to pick a random recent example [1]. You can get them by looking at the history of a page and comparing edits or by looking at a user's contribution list. JoshuaZ 17:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. How did you come up with the pointer to what you wanted to display? I don't recognize the syntax or numbers, so I presently still can't do, what you did.pat8722 17:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
- Two methods. First if one clicks on a user's contribution list (which one can access from their userpage and then clicking on "User contributions" on the lower left of the page which in the tool box (right below the search bar). Each edit they have will then be displayed with the edit summary and to what article the edit was to. You can click on the part labeled "dif" to get the difference. You can do a similar thing by looking at the history of an article. Click on the "history" button at the top of the page. This will display the history of the page, i.e. all the edits that have occured to the page. You can then pick out a dif by clicking on the open circles of two versions and click on "compare selected versions." In the case of the example dif I used, I took it from my watchlist. I hope that helps (I'm also guessing that not knowing about this is why you did the whole paragraph numbering thing). JoshuaZ 17:17, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not terribly offended, but I feel the need to express this to you. When it comes to facts about specialized fields, I understand that some knowledge taken for granted by the professionals may sound completely foreign to the general public. Since you are unaware of arthrocentesis, I am assuming you do not have close ties to the dental profession. If you have seen my user page, you would note that my main objective here is in the dental field, and I guess I take for granted that flushing out the TMJ as one avenue of treatment just makes sense. Nonetheless, I feel it would have been considerate to keep a "citation needed" tag to the sentence so that us dental-minded wikipedians would have noted that there was a request for a reference for the information. Otherwise, it would be more difficult to notice that the information was missing from the article, and thus more difficult to add a reference to that specific piece of information. Again, I realize you may not know much about the dental profession, but it may be easier next time there is info you want verified to leave a message on a talk page of someone who is a dentist. Thanks. - Dozenist talk 01:54, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- Your assumptions are all wrong. Of course I am "aware of arthrocentesis". Your mention of it in the article lacked context, and still does, and will have to be fixed. I hope, since you added it, you will make the time to place your addition into context. As to sources, you will see I was held to provide a source on something pretty basic by one who represents himself as being a dentist. [[2]], and I promptly complied. It's really not a problem to add sources, and you shouldn't feel insulted when you are held to providing one, particularly on a topic with as many contradictions and contraindications as this one. pat8722 02:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand, I am saying that next time using the "citation needed" tag may be more beneficial for the article since the correct information can be included in the article while at the same time bring up the need for a citation. Otherwise, the information may be lost for a while until someone at a later date realizes the omission. This is even a more logical thing to do especially since you say that you ARE "aware of arthrocentesis"--- deleting something you know to be true only because there is no citation would be better handled by just adding a tag saying a citation is warranted. Further, I interpret Davidruben's talk page to say he is a physician, NOT a dentist. And for the record, I did not originally add the statement as you can see here. - Dozenist talk 03:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstand. I deleted it because it was entered both without source and without context. It survives only because you have added a source. Without either source or context the material is misleading/confusing to the reader, at best. It still is misleading, but the reader now has some protection in that they can view the source and assess its credibility. Context is still necessary in the article, and since you are a proponent of leaving it in, I hope you will make the time to add the context, and including opposing treatment philosophies. pat8722 03:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am disappointed that it appears you are hostile to any effort I make to improve the article. I will not feel it necessary to defend my actions to you, even after you say arthrocentesis makes no sense and the treatment is "bizarre" yet later claim that you were actually "aware of arthrocentesis" and the real reason you deleted pertinent information you knew to be correct was that there was no citation and no context. Well, I have looked at that section of the article and it seems to have perfect context to me since it is one form of treatment. And we all know that different treatments are necessary since most disorders have different causes. Also, if you are an oral and maxillofacial surgeon that treats tmd, I am confused why you would dismiss a less obtrusive treatment than most surgical treatments for tmd, but as I said I will no longer attempt to defend my actions to you since you appear to dismiss them and belittle them. - Dozenist talk 03:46, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
- The solution, of course, is to reposition the mandible to its normal position using non-invasive technique (no surgery), and to correct the occlusal surfaces of the teeth, such that the mandible is guided back the correct position when the teeth occlude, as nature intended. Arthrocentesis is obviously no more a "solution" for tmjd, than it would be for a dislocated shoulder.pat8722 15:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Pro-life activism merge
I'm thinking of going ahead with the merge with Anti-abortion movement soon. If there are any outstanding issues let me know. - RoyBoy 800 13:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
- The outstanding issues were on the pro-life activism talk page, which is now gone. There was no consensus to merge to the name "anti-abortion movement", and you should have contributed on the appropriate talk page before "merging" to the "wrong" name. Please epxlain why you did what you did, and undo it.pat8722 14:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- It also appears to me that you did not do a merge, but an effective delete, in as far as I can tell you deleted all the content that was in the pro-life activism article as well as on it's talk page, without attempting any kind of merge to the article you redirected to. What is the procedure to bringing back the content you deleted, both what was in the pro-life activism article, and the content on the pro-life activism talk page? Hopefully by next Sunday you will have the pages restored so they can be properly merged.) pat8722 17:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
- Nothing has been deleted (see Talk:Pro-life_activism and if you check the history, here is the article before my merge); and the material was merged. The merge can be undone quite easily... but I don't see a compelling reason to do so. I'm really tired right now, but if this is just about merging/moving it to a more accurate/neutral article title; nothing is stopping you from pursuing that while the material remains in Anti-abortion movement... you can even use that talk page and/or move comments from Talk:Pro-life_activism. When I get the time I'll look at the issue myself, ask for a second opinion and implement your suggestions. I just want the material organized better and wanted something done; I have no opinion on the article title at this time. - RoyBoy 800 21:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Merges that involve a rename require consensus, and you did not have it. Please read the Talk:Pro-life_activism page regarding the outstanding merge issues, and then undo what you did until you have achieved consensus. As the arguments for merging to "pro-life activism" were quite strong, I suggest you start with a merge proposal on the anti-abortion movement page to merge to "pro-life activism", with reference to the arguments on the Talk:Pro-life_activism page, and see if anyone is able to counter those arguments. If not, you would be free to merge to the "pro-life activism" page. (Also, could you please tell me how you located the history on what you renamed, i.e. how you found the original text from the "pro-life activism" article?) pat8722 21:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Water fluoridation controversy
I've requested for you to comment here. This is generally a good way to avoid an edit war. I hope you take the opportunity. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 18:21, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Comments belong on an article's talk page, and in the edit summary section of the article, where I always make them, not here.pat8722 17:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
McVeigh Contributions
I just wanted to leave a little note to thank you. After a confrontational approach at the beginning, your edits on the Timothy McVeigh page made on July 9th were very constructive and provided some needed clarifications, especially with the creation of the "defense theories" section. The article reads much better now. (Lostkiwi 11:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC))
libertarianism
Hi, Pat8722. I am a libertarian who would like to see a correct and factual article concerning libertarianism. I see a lot of blending of ideologies and all sorts of unfacts that keep popping up in more and more articles. It's overwhelming the way history and language are being changed, isn't it? If you feel like checking this out and commenting on it, I would appreciate it greatly, questionableness of Removing personal attacks Thanks. I'm going to go to libertarianism now and check that out. Other articles of interest are anarchism and liberalism. In Wikipedia being an actual encyclopedia, Shannonduck talk 02:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Temporomandibular joint disorder revert warring
Hi, we've seem recently to have been revert-warring which is to be regretted. I am not clear why you disliked all or part of my edit, to I have started a discussion thread Talk:Temporomandibular joint disorder#Edit war re atypical symptoms.
To state as you did in an edit summary "Shame on you", was I believe, an ad hominem attack and failed to WP:Assume good faith. Of course neck/shoulder "are different parts of the anatomy" from upper or lower back. However, regional anatomy is not the only classification system one may use when listing symptoms & causes of disease. It seemed perfectly reasonable, to me, to classify pains in these areas together as non-localised musculoskeletal pain symptoms ('localised' referring to whether local to the TMJ itself, rather than whether pain is well circumscribed in any given area, and distinct from non-pain symptoms of limited opening or clicking sounds). As such they are intriguing - pain over a disordered joint seems obvious, but not pain some distance away. Such symptoms can not be intuitively guessed upon, but rather must be identified through clinical observation/research. These non-localised symptoms warrant explanation as to their mechanism, e.g. much as for earache being due to referred pain. Also this last point repeatedly deleted with your reverts to my overall edit.
I look forward to your comments on the article's talk page. David Ruben Talk 21:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- These arguments of yours belong on the talk page - where I have, and always do, make mine, if not entirely covered in the edit summary. I am copying these comments also to your talk page, so that you are sure to find them. You have been repeatedly deleting and obscuring the back pain symptom from the tmjd page, WITHOUT A SINGLE SOURCE TO ASSIST YOU. It is getting harder to assume good faith. It is long since time you got some sources for your repeated edits. You demanded I produce a source, and I immediately did, yet you continue to delete/obsure the fully sourced fact, while claiming to be an ignorant general practitioner (i.e."no dental training whatsoever" (talk at DavidRuben 23:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)) whose experience consists of little else than the six or so clients he sees a year seeking pain relief. (talk at DavidRuben 23:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC)) pat8722 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
- Most importantly, lets keep the tmjd discussion on the tmjd talk page. We want all readers to have the full conversation available in one place for easy review and understanding. pat8722 22:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Please do not attack other editors. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you.
I now count 3 episodes of inciviity/personal attack towards myself - Talk:Temporomandibular_joint_disorder#comment_by_David_Ruben where you questioned anyone but a Dentist would treat TMJ and "anyone but a dentist would have deleted technical content on the basis of alleged personal experience", your edit summary comment and the subsequent posting to my talk page. So, official tag added above, I explain why I disagree with the allegations you posted and the continued personal attacks.
- My previous posting was composed of two parts - a notice of content discussion on an article's talk page (to which I had posted for discussion to be held there). Secondly a complaint about the personal attack, which seemed best on your talk page - as this had attacked my credibility, I indicated my reasoning for grouping like conditions atypical musculoskeletal pains together - this was not done instead of holding content discussion on the article’s talk page.
- You alleged on my talk page " You have been repeatedly deleting and obscuring the back pain symptom from the tmjd page". Yet as, this edit shows, "backache" was not deleted, just I just joined upper-backache and lower-backache into one sentence – that is not deleting.
- re "It is long since time you got some sources for your repeated edits" - does one really need a source to change "* Upper backache * Lower backache" into a sentence as ".. upper or lower backache" ?
- re "You demanded I produce a source, and I immediately did, yet you continue to delete/obsure the fully sourced fact" - no information deleted, just collated together as a sentence.
- re "ignorant general practitioner (i.e."no dental training whatsoever" (talk at DavidRuben 23:15, 28 May 2006 (UTC))" - is a further personal attack. The wording I actually described myself was "a humble General Practitioner" and "Whilst we have no specialised knowledge and certainly do not have any dental equipment..." which is not that same as having no "training whatsoever". Similarly I have not been trained as an Endocrinologist specialist, yet majority of diabetics will be successfully managed exclusively by a Primary Care Multidisciplinary Team via General Practice in the UK and need never be seen by a hospital specialist. There is much I have not received training on - orthodontics, ophthalmic optician skills in precisely assessing vision and the writing out of a lens prescription, nor indeed of glass grinding to make a lens. Yet I can measure far-vision acuity, and recognise a child who only gets headaches sitting at the back of the class as needing to see their optician - so lack of training in a field to specialist level does not mean "ignorant".
- re "whose experience consists of little else than the six or so clients he sees a year seeking pain relief" - is further personal attack as to my credibility. Yes this is significant experience, ("Facial pain is a relatively frequent cause of presentation to both general medical and dental practitioners" PMID 16113700) - but "relative" does not mean huge “frequency”, and certainly is not dissimilar to the number of patients who present with new onset of chest pain angina each year, certainly more than the number of cases of confirmed acute appendicitis. David Ruben Talk 01:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)