:::He's complaining about me specifically, but also about the WP consensus on how to transcribe English pronunciations. My most charitable explanation is that he is so set on assuming bad faith on my part that he hasn't actually bothered to read anything that has challenged his initial assumptions, even by other editors. [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 21:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
:::He's complaining about me specifically, but also about the WP consensus on how to transcribe English pronunciations. My most charitable explanation is that he is so set on assuming bad faith on my part that he hasn't actually bothered to read anything that has challenged his initial assumptions, even by other editors. [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 21:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
::::Hi Kudpung. Can you give us an example or more than one example of where this is happening please? Thanks. [[User:Jamesinderbyshire|Jamesinderbyshire]] ([[User talk:Jamesinderbyshire|talk]]) 23:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
::::Hi Kudpung. Can you give us an example or more than one example of where this is happening please? Thanks. [[User:Jamesinderbyshire|Jamesinderbyshire]] ([[User talk:Jamesinderbyshire|talk]]) 23:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
== ANI ==
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents]] regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. {{#if:|The thread is [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#|{{{thread}}}]]. }}{{#if:|The discussion is about the topic {{#ifexist:[[:{{{1}}}]]|[[:{{{1}}}]]|{{{1}}}}}.}} <!--Template:ANI-notice--> Thank you. [[User:Frmatt|Frmatt]] ([[User talk:Frmatt|talk]]) 02:47, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Revision as of 02:47, 25 February 2010
Hi, Frmatt. Welcome to my talk page. Please note:
Personal messages go here. Please use the article or project talk pages for other comments.
Talkback template tab is something I use a lot - I try to keep discussions where they first started.
Tagged your talk page about something you did? You probably got a more friendly note than a template that the software will log against you.
Online at the same time?
It is approximately 11:13 PM where this user lives (Thailand). [refresh]
Ooh, a blank page, it feels all fresh and clean! Sorry for not replying to various points - I've been trying to catch up on other parts of Wikipedia since the Malvern GA review.
The review: Yes, I think it probably was a little tougher than strictly necessary, but I'd agree that the article is better for it. It makes a good baseline for the rest of the project - it's very useful to have a reference piece, so we can all check 'how does the Malvern article do it?' when editing elsewhere. Some GAs are tougher than others - so long as ours are not unfair, we take what comes.
Thanks for the newsletter - it's a good idea to try to spur a few more editors into action. Maybe when we seriously start work on Worcester that will bring out a few more. For the meetup I won't make any promises, but I'll try to get back to Blighty for it - it would be interesting to put faces to some names.
The Worcester pronunciation debacle was, well, silly. I understand why you don't want to spend your free time doing what you do for a living - in the end it's a minor point, so I guess we live with knowing it's wrong and carry on with other things. We gave it a shot. I do like the myth of a universal English!
Malvern/peacock: I initially had the same thought as you, but Jarry1250 turned out to be a genuine, good-faith editor. He did have a point. I'm happy to keep tweaking the article as needed, although I don't expect any major changes to it. I've noticed your recent spat with the Milford Haven GA review, but decided to stay well out of it ;-) Wikipedia's a big place - don't get drawn into those daft arguments that seem to happen here - spend your effort where it's appreciated.
BTW, I like your user page redesign - I may have to copy some of that. GyroMagician (talk) 14:06, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
File:The Fleece, Bretforton.jpg
Hi your post on Stavros1 talk page re above image, I think the deletion tag refers to File:NT Logo.png see previous entry on Stavros1 talk page. Regard --palmiped | Talk 20:17, 28 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Watchlist
As I did not get a reply to last note on a watchlist for the Worcestershire project, I took the liberty of proceeding to produce one while I was updating the others. You can check changes to articles tagged with the project template using this link. Keith D (talk) 01:17, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The major active participants of the Worcs proj have all the related pages on their watchlists, so if you did not get a reply, it can be taken as a tacit consensus that your contributions are fine, and very much welcome. Furthermore, thanks for demonstrating the special 'watchall' feature - I didn't actually know such a thing existed. Extremely useful. if you are particularly interested in the county, have you considered joining the Wikipedia:WikiProject Worcestershire? It borders some of the counties you already work on and of which some of us are members too. We don't actually have a sysop among the Worcs participants.--Kudpung (talk) 01:35, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am not really available for Worcestershire cannot really spread myself even thinner than I am at the moment. I just thought that I could help with the watchlist as I run several others, usually updated on a Friday, and it is no trouble to add an additional one to the list. Though I did spot some unreverted vandalism when I tested it out. Keith D (talk) 01:47, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Milford Haven
Hi Kudpung - in one sense, Milford Haven is a local government community (the Welsh equivalent of a civil parish); in another, it's one of the Office for National Statistics urban areas. The two have slightly different boundaries.--Pondle (talk) 17:52, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes - I know all this of course, it's very confusing and that's why I pointed it out and made the analogy with Malvern.It had even been suggested that Malvern was not a place at all and should be merged to an article about an area of the town that apart from its name, has no official standing. So when I was in the UK I had a meeting with the town clerk to clear it all up. The discussion was also a very good introduction to the nomenclature and complexities of the various tiers of regional, county, borough, district and local government, which in fact most citizens themselves do not fully understand. My posting on the Milford GA review talk page gives more detail.--Kudpung (talk) 21:23, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, sorry I didn't see your post over at the GA page. I must add that to my watchlist.--Pondle (talk) 00:36, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Understood. Thanks for all your hard work. I haven't added to it myself as I just have nothing more to include. I'll nudge silktork, and have him make a decision one way or the other. Hope to bump into you on future articles. FruitMonkey (talk) 07:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine Kudpung, the article wasn't a major focus for me either but I wanted to chip in and lend a hand. I may be back if momentum gathers again. Thanks for your input.--Pondle (talk) 17:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Worchester University
Worchester University appears to be one of the all-too-numerous non-legitimate "universities" that use names similar to those of legitimate academic institutions -- probably to scam unsuspecting potential students. Since a Wikipedia search on its name returns the result "Did you mean: Worcester University" (which resolves to University of Worcester), I thought it would be worthwhile to put a hatnote on University of Worcester to alert those potential scam victims that this might not be the article they were looking for. The hatnote has nothing to with the University of Worcester, but rather with another outfit that may be posing as the University of Worcester. --Orlady (talk) 19:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(sorry to butt in but...) How about removing the redirect for Worchester University (that's weird to type), and starting a stub page. It could say something simple like "WU is a university in Panama City". If there is a reliable source saying the university is a bit shady, cite it. GyroMagician (talk) 22:20, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the suggestion. Actually, there is no redirect for Worchester University. It's just that if a person searches Wikipedia for that name, they end up at University of Worcester. My hatnote said "Not to be confused with Worchester University, an unaccredited institution doing business in Panama." There probably isn't enough information to support an article on Worchester University. An anon added Worchester to List of unaccredited institutions of higher learning, which is full of entries for shadowy outfits that cannot support articles, but that might be "enrolling" many "students". Typically, the only information that exists is a self-promotional website (in this instance, www.worchester.edu) and a reliable-source database that says the outfit is not an authorized university. --Orlady (talk) 23:14, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Until ORlady has created that stub following GyroMagician's excellent suggestion, the issue has been resolved using Wkipedia logic, technology, andWP:UCS.--Kudpung (talk) 23:58, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good deal. However, I have a hunch that this one won't be considered notable (due to lack of third-party coverage) until someone buys a Worchester degree for a cat and publicizes the story. --Orlady (talk) 00:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Saucy Worcestershire
Hi Kudpung. Thanks for the welcome bizzo following my signing up for helpings of Worcestershire. You know, it was only at that exact moment that the penny dropped about Worcestershire sauce. Before then, it was just bottles of sauce that I grew up with, dousing pies, chips, cakes, sleeping cats, and anything else that didn't move and thus might qualify as food. Of course, some things might qualify as food because they move, but it gets difficult not to spill the sauce when eating on the run.
Now, like the kid who has seen a cow for the first time and makes the connection with supermarket milk, I understand something deeply meaningful about the universe in which I exist. Regards. Wotnow (talk) 06:28, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Updated user page
Hi again Kudpung. I have amended my user page to take into account some new learning about these list-defined reference bizzos. The whole page has been amended to take into account, and move away from, the template {{r}} controversy. But more importantly, I have created a new section where I try to explain how I actually implement list-defined references. That itself arose from a revelation as I worked through some articles and added the <ref name=/> templates. First, I realised that when I do implement list-defined references, I do it in a slightly different order to how I previously described. I don't do the inline reference first. Having created or amended the reference section to allow list-defined references to work, I first create the full reference that I want to show up, just as I would if I was embedding it in the article text. Only then do I place the inline bit into the article text.
Now, as a result of the recent exercises I've been doing, I realise how easy it is to generate the inline bit if using the <ref name=/> template. To me, it's actually simpler than the {{r}} template, because you create the reference first, just as you would anyway, no matter what style you use. Then you give it a refname and then just copy and paste the <ref name=Refname> into the article, add a forward slash (/) thus <ref name=Refname/>, and presto, it works. The great irony is that this 'revelation' only came to me after all the recent developments. And it only came to me of course because I went through the exercise of replacing a number of {{r}} templates with <ref name=/> templates, and reflecting on what I'd learned from the whole exercise.
Anyway, I'm not looking to convert you, but I would appreciate if you have a look at the How I do list-defined referencing section and comment on whether it makes sense to you as a description of how to do it. Regards Wotnow (talk) 07:14, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Kudpung. Thanks for your message the other day. I won't be allowing myself to get dragged into that debate any further than I already did. It won't end anytime soon, if at all, and it will probably do a lot of harm along the way. I saw the writing on the wall early on. And that is exactly why I took the stance that I did, which was consistent with my original stance anyway. That is, the only gold standard is the reference information, whether or not a template of any sort is used. And if a template is used in any fashion for any reason, it must serve our purposes, not the other way around. So once I saw the writing on the wall, I replaced the ((r)) template in articles where I'd originally placed them, alerted Maedin (about the identified technical difficulties, not the looming storm), and did what I could to help Chienlit regain some integrity as a good faith editor.
In other words, once I could see there was controversy, packaged along with several agendas (themselves primarily good faith, but confounding solution and fuelling debate nonetheless), my opinion was, and remains, that the best thing to do is replace the contentious template and side-step the cesspool. Let it play out as it will. Let others who wish to be vehicles for that debate, or even drivers of it, do so. That is their choice.
I see that the ((r) template has been proposed for deletion, and some (I guess automated mechanism) now leaves a message at every use of the ((r)) template. This interferes with the readability of the Malvern, Worcestershire, Malvern Water, and Barnards Green articles - especially the first two. The mere act of leaving the ((r)) templates in place is causing problems not originally forseen or intended. Never mind if the tactic of making articles using the ((r)) templates unreadable smacks of the sort of underhandedness one sees in vicious political campaigns. Some will spot that and complain. I say so what?
My advice regarding these articles is that we replace the ((r)) templates with <ref name=/> templates. This will bring back the readability of the articles, and avoid being caught up other people's campaigns. They aren't worth getting caught up in. It's not as if they save children's lives or anything really useful in life. I will assist replacing the templates if this if desired. I would estimate the overall time for the three articles at about an hours work. Regards Wotnow (talk) 00:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Wotnow. I didn't know there were any citation wars. Anything I know about citing references is what I have come across accidentally while navigating artound the Wikipedia for other stuff. To be quite truthful, I tend to regard all Wikipedia templates as a necessary evil, and clearly many of them are made for the sake of making templates (it's a bit like the craze, which has thankfully died down, of making Widgets when Mac OSX was first released), so I never really looked into what you and Gyro were doing because I trust your judgement as editors. What I have found is that using even a basic citation template cramps my style, takes longer to complete, and gives the result in date formats only understandable in the USA and not by the world at large, hence I prefer to write my ref strings in real time using the quick instert button for the <ref></ref> tags. I find that any other method, particularly any that put the ref information in another separate template in another ==References== section defeats two fundamental objectives:
The automatic generation of the numbered information in the {{reflist}}
The ability to copy and paste a chunk of text complete with its refs witout having to hunt for, and copy and paste the rest of the information that goes with them as well.
However, I do certainly agree that keeping the ref information out of the body text makes the page code far more readable for an editor, but on the other hand, we're writing for readers who may not know, and/or may not want to know, how php and html work and how web pages get put together for display in a browser. I am biased of course, because I write for content, whereas others have a genuine interest in the programming that puts it all together for us. I'm a bit like a design architect who leaves it up to the structural engineers to figure out how to build the thing! I suppose I ought to take a more active interest in this references saga and try to understand what it's all about, because one thing is sure: sooner or later, three or four Wikipedians will arrive at what they call a consensus and force the thirty or forty thousand others to follow their reasoning. --Kudpung (talk) 02:42, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Kudpung. Thanks for your reply. I wouldn't advocate taking an interest in the reference saga. I advocate avoiding being drawn into it, hence removal of the ((r)) template. That gets that bit out of the way. Then, as editors, it just comes down to the pros and cons of grouping the references together, or having them embedded in the article. That issue is separate to the ((r)) template issue, which is what the controversy is over.
You may recall my comments to Dana Boomer, (paragraph beginning "The creation of more problems...") where I say of templates that "There's no point trying to impose the ever-increasing use of templates on someone if they're using a method that is compatible with more recent developments - it may well be those people who are showing the greater sense!" So I readily see your point about templates, as does GyroMagician, which we both know from his comments. As a group of editors, we were, and will continue to be, interested only in generating good articles, with useful information, in the most efficient fashion for us as a group of editors. Templates can be useful, or a dangerous sidetrack. In my opinion, the ((r)) template didn't start out as a dangerous side-track, but it has become one. Hence I say let's be shot of it.
As for the then remaining question of list-defined references, I think your points are important, and they have been raised by other editors in these discussion forums which I've perused for learning purposes, but which I'm sure as hell going to avoid getting sucked into. In that regard, I think the best approach is to not implement it in any more Worcestershire articles unless there is a general consensus that there is a gain from its implementation. And that might only be partial implementation, as I did with the Shakespeare article, where I simply utilised it to get a handful of lengthy reference notes out of the article body, leaving everything else intact. As for the Malvern Water and Malvern articles, I would only suggest sitting on them as they are for a while, apart from getting rid of those contentious ((r)) templates. Let some time transpire to see how it fares OUTSIDE of those contentious debates, and removing the ((r)) templates allows you to step away from that, so you can make informed decisions over time without some artificial pressure arising from the use of a contentious ((r)) template. Regards Wotnow (talk) 05:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(copypaste from the response on my talk page) Sorry, I'm kinda new with references. I've mostly done vandalism cleanup the past two years. I know Pitcock is notable, but unfortunately a lot of his sites are currently down due to a rouge employee at his company. It's difficult to find references to him 'cause, although he's done a lot of work that's notable, he himself is somewhat of an unsung hero. I'd appreciate some help getting some references. --Jacob Myers(Flame me!) 04:14, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry about it, I think the consensus will be to keep Pitcock. Finding reliable, verifiable references can sometimes be hard but at the end of the day the Wiki rule verifiability not truth is applied. Which means that however notable something is and however deserving of a Wiki page, if it can't be proven, it can't be written. Combatting vandalism is a great mission - keep up the good work and take a break to brush up on WP:CITE. --Kudpung (talk) 04:22, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hardwicke
HI -- I placed a reference on the Cedric Hardwicke page as you requested. Hope that helps! Randy 04:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rand503 (talk • contribs)
Message from Graham moved to project talk page at WT:WORCS
Personal messages go here. Please use the article or project talk pages for other comments.--Kudpung (talk) 15:19, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Worcestershire newsletter
Please don;t add the Worcestershire newsletter to my talk page; things like that should go on a page of their own, and a link to them be added to talk pages Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 16:45, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Andy, the newsletter is made in the same way as all newsletters - it is in fact a tiny template and not a page at all. That's exactly the same as the link you requested, except you just click show and it goes to the template page where the newsletter is hosted. You are quite at liberty to delete the template from your page (after you have read the newsletter of course) - it's your talk page.--Kudpung (talk) 17:11, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I wasn't clear. The news letter is not wanted there, in any form other than a simple wikilink. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 21:01, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Andy, do let us know at WT:WORCS if you no longer wish to receive updates regarding the Worcestershire project. If you membership status has changed, please edit your entry on the member list on WP:WORCS. Please address all comunications regarding the Worcs project to the Worcs project talk page as I try to keep this page here for personal messages (see talk page banner above). Thanks. --Kudpung (talk) 19:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please read what I wrote above, which was addressed to you personally. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 21:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Andy, I don't own the project, i'm merely a slave to it. ALL communications regarding the project belong on the project talk page - see below.--Kudpung (talk) 05:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The military history wikiproject posts a link instead of a transcluded template (see here). I just want to check that you find that preferable to recieving the collapsed template, which would actually take up fewer characters and less actual space on your talk page? Nev1 (talk) 21:42, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Kudpung, and thanks for the latest edition of the newsletter. I think maybe some folks are less happy to receive it because it messes up the contents listing on talk pages (the invisible collapsed sections appear in the contents). Maybe it's better to follow MilHist, putting the newsletter on the WP:WORCS subpage and posting links to those that may be interested? (and yes, I will get back to tagging 'people in Worcs' soon!) GyroMagician (talk) 12:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The irony is, that I never wanted to do a newsletter in the first place. It was a weak attempt in trying to enlist some more support for the project. Some of those who joined have not made another edit since they put their name down.I get the point about the headers messing up peoples' contents lists. Admittedly something I never thought about although I tested the newsletter on my own talk page first. The advantage is that it's a template this time, so one fix does all, and a large number of newsletters are sent out this way. I would like to point out once more however, for the benefit of anyone following this thread, that this kind of discussion would best take place on the project talk page at WT:WORCS, where other project members will (hopefully) follow it and take the initiative of producing the next newsletter.--Kudpung (talk) 05:17, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Articles related to architecture over the past two weeks are listed automatically by AlexNewArtBot.
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Hello and welcome to the WikiProject Architecture - here's the bulletin - if you don't like it just delete it from your talk page, otherwise, it automatically updates. Please give me or one of the other project members a shout if you need any help. Kind regards Elekhh (talk) 22:59, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Victorian architecture
Hi. I did it anonymously because I've been having trouble with stalkers for a while now. The situation has calmed down now, but who knows? Anyway, glad you liked my contribution. How did you track me down? If you can, so can others (but I intend to have a wikiholiday for a while anyway).
Particularly if they are making what could be perceived as a slight, by making them without your signature, it looks as if you are making a drive by slight with the hope that they will be lost in the mass of posts on the page. I'll AGF, but without the sig, it looks more derogatory than it was probably intended.---BalloonmanNO! I'm Spartacus! 16:01, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Balloonman, Thanks for pointing something out, but I have no idea what you are talking about if you can't refer to something I have edited or contributed to. I assume, as your name rings a bell, that it is to do with the BLP issue;. I am a conscientious editor who always signs his edits and completes edit summaries. If I omitted to do so it was totally unintentional - I have absolutely nothing to hide and a clear conscience. A quick look at the page history will always reveal who posted - unless of course they are hiding behind an IP or a sock. I have no time to waste in contributing to a RfC if my comments are not to be taken seriously.--Kudpung (talk) 16:15, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I figured. It was on the BLP RFC... you made two comments, where you failed to sign your comments. As unsigned post, they LOOK worse than what I think you intended, which is why I mentioned it. I'm glad, however, to have you confirm that it was a mistake and not intentional.---BalloonmanNO! I'm Spartacus! 16:24, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've been back to those two edits and signed them.--Kudpung (talk) 16:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
British English
Hello, Kudpung. You have new messages at Likelife's talk page. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Wellingborough....again
Hi Kudpung as the Wellingborough page gets nearer to a B rating im finding it increasingly hard to find references for the Notable Wellingburians section. Im also planning to change the section into a paragraph, but not until the refs are made to get it the rating. Could you help find any refs please, thanks.Likelife (talk) 16:40, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take a look over the next day or two. Actually ; the article is getting closer to GA than even a B.--Kudpung (talk) 16:57, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
British English
Can you give me a link to what you are complaining of? Peterkingiron (talk) 17:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm complaining about the reintroduction of the final rhotic r in the names of Worcertershire, Herefordshire, and Warwickshire. It's an edit revert war, perpetrated by an admin, among other reasons, which is why I don't think it's particularly cool.--Kudpung (talk) 17:47, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I do not do phonetics, but I know the Americans talk of Worcestershire sauce, not "Worster" sauce. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:51, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He's complaining about me specifically, but also about the WP consensus on how to transcribe English pronunciations. My most charitable explanation is that he is so set on assuming bad faith on my part that he hasn't actually bothered to read anything that has challenged his initial assumptions, even by other editors. kwami (talk) 21:42, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Kudpung. Can you give us an example or more than one example of where this is happening please? Thanks. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 23:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
ANI
Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Frmatt (talk) 02:47, 25 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]