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Hi Jytdog, Thank you for your review for our page! The wiki page is actually still in progress and we will add more citations in 2-3 days. About the topic, we are student from UCB and this is actually our final project. The subsections are already set up and we do not have too much flexibility. Would you mind we move the section back to the page until the end of semester and also give us some advice about how should we improve in order to make it more related to the page topic? Thank you again! [[User:Ljqianl|Ljqianl]] ([[User talk:Ljqianl|talk]]) 23:00, 18 April 2017 (UTC) |
Hi Jytdog, Thank you for your review for our page! The wiki page is actually still in progress and we will add more citations in 2-3 days. About the topic, we are student from UCB and this is actually our final project. The subsections are already set up and we do not have too much flexibility. Would you mind we move the section back to the page until the end of semester and also give us some advice about how should we improve in order to make it more related to the page topic? Thank you again! [[User:Ljqianl|Ljqianl]] ([[User talk:Ljqianl|talk]]) 23:00, 18 April 2017 (UTC) |
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:Hi [[User:Ljqianl]] thanks for your note. Wikipedia is the commons and governed by community policies and guidelines. Just like companies don't have the write to dump things into public waters, classes don't have the right to take over space in the commons for classwork. Can you see that? If you want to work privately feel free to move the article into User space and you can do (mostly) what you like there. (It is a little weird to do while there is an AfD running but people will probably continue cutting you all slack for that). If you don't know how to move an article I can do that for you. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog#top|talk]]) 23:39, 18 April 2017 (UTC) |
:Hi [[User:Ljqianl]] thanks for your note. Wikipedia is the commons and governed by community policies and guidelines. Just like companies don't have the write to dump things into public waters, classes don't have the right to take over space in the commons for classwork. Can you see that? If you want to work privately feel free to move the article into User space and you can do (mostly) what you like there. (It is a little weird to do while there is an AfD running but people will probably continue cutting you all slack for that). If you don't know how to move an article I can do that for you. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog#top|talk]]) 23:39, 18 April 2017 (UTC) |
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::Hi [[User:jytdog]] Thank you for your advice and we are 100% understand what you said! We will try to talk with our instructor and figure out what should we do for the following steps. Because our project are required to present on a wiki page, it might not work if we move it to the user space. But thank you again and we totally appreciate all of your suggestions![[User:Ljqianl|Ljqianl]] ([[User talk:Ljqianl|talk]]) 23:19, 19 April 2017 (UTC) |
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== April 2017 == |
== April 2017 == |
Revision as of 23:19, 19 April 2017
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 |
This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Welcome!
Hello, Jytdog, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
- The five pillars of Wikipedia
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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}}
before the question. Again, welcome! --Edcolins (talk) 18:42, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
where to put consent info
Hello! thanks for that edit improving the link re a journal article on consent. With this edit, where do you suggest putting the material? I do not think it belongs in the article on consent in the law because it is specifically about rape/sexual assault. Not sure whether you read the journal article in the citation you deleted, but much of it seems to be a discussion of not just legal, but also sociological literature defining consent. Thanks—G1729 (talk) 05:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
- I did read the article. It is not a review but rather makes a very strong argument and I am not sure it should be used without attribution. But the content about the consent and sexual assault/rape is a bit of a mess. There is some in Rape and some in Rape#Consent and some scattered throughout Sexual assault; there is a major junk in an article about tort law called Consent, here at Consent#Sexual_activity, and as I noted on its talk page here, that content has no business being there as consent in a context of sexual activity has no place in an article about tort; there is an article about consent in a criminal law context at Consent (criminal law) and the content in the tort law article should be moved there, probably. And that is probably where your bit of content and its source should be. Jytdog (talk) 08:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
Content on my talkpage
There is notice on my talkpage. It is without reference. I do not know what it is about. There are no specifics on this notice. YOU appear to have placed it on my page. Can you explain? Thanks meatclerk (talk) 04:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- The article about Mark Dice is subject to two sets of discretionary sanctions. The two notices, inform you about those discretionary sanctions. If you have any specific questions about them, please ask. Jytdog (talk) 04:16, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Why are you reverting a page with proper attributions? Thanks meatclerk (talk) 04:08, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- this edit] you made a) removed content from the WP:LEAD that is well supported in the body, and b) is responding to off-wiki recruiting, in violation of WP:MEAT (please read that) and WP:CANVASS. Jytdog (talk) 04:16, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I know the process. I demand arbitration. meatclerk (talk) 04:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- The editor (thomson) that blocked my edit will get a timeout. I dealt with him before. Be respectful. I know the process. meatclerk (talk) 04:24, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Jessemonroy650: Do it. Now. Give me a time out. Scared to? Ian.thomson (talk) 04:29, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- You got it, Mr Thomson. I know you. I know your game. meatclerk (talk) 04:39, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- @Jessemonroy650: I've gotten nothing from you except the impression that you're acting tough because you don't know what you're doing. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:45, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
Not part of a group project
I see I was tagged in a submission that is a concern of yours. Granted, I'm new here but at the same time want to add long term value. Can you clarify what I have done wrong exactly? That said I can assure you and Excirial I'm not part of a group project, am not Dutch, Scandinavian or went to the Radboud University Nijmegen. (Cygnature00 (talk) 13:26, 22 March 2017 (UTC))
Invitation to take a look at our first article
Hi, We are students writing an article on Colors of biotechnology as part of our class Academic Discourse and Writing at Tec de Monterrey. Since you are an experienced Wikipedian and have an interest in these kind of topics, we would like you to know if you could take a few moments to take a look at the article and give us feedback. Thank you for your time. --ItaDeni (talk) 21:24, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
MEDMOS
Says "Classification: If relevant. May also be placed as a subheading of diagnosis." I often place it as a subheading under diagnosis as the classification is often complicated. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:11, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
- So it does - let's discuss placement of this at that article... will post anon. Jytdog (talk) 15:40, 26 March 2017 (UTC)
Your opinion on another page.
Given our points of disagreement earlier today, I'd like your opinion on another page to which I'm planning on taking a similar hatchet out of BLP concerns for undue critical detail, Edward Nottingham. I think the "Inquiry and resignation" should be cut by at least half. bd2412 T 02:30, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- yeah really! I did this. Jytdog (talk) 03:31, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks - that's just about where I was heading. I think perhaps we come from very different editing experiences. I have done a lot of substantive work on articles about judges. There are always disgruntled litigants wanting to shoehorn in critical assertions about judges whose rulings they disliked. Cheers! bd2412 T 04:10, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
Your wonderful and lengthy essays on NPOV and COI
Hi, Jytdog. I just glanced at your user page and found a splendid pair of well-written essays. It will take me more than one sitting to get through them! I appreciate your patience at Talk:Creation–evolution controversy and would like to thank you for your recent edits to the Creation–evolution controversy article.
My thing at Wikipedia has been to explain beliefs and positions as precisely as possible, without regard to whether these are true. Concurrently, I enjoy describing who disagrees with these and why. I used to be quite good at this, then I seem to have faltered somehow. Recently, I'm on the comeback trail, and I could use any good advice you'd care to give. Thanks! --Uncle Ed (talk) 12:15, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yes they are lengthy. :) I hope you find them useful. We get a lot of advocacy at the various articles describing views opposed to evolution and it is hard to main NPOV (as Wikipedia defines that) in these articles. Jytdog (talk) 14:11, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
congrats!
[1] I know last year wasn't easy(coi), but you kept going!...congratulations!--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:51, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- thanks!
Deletism
Not you, me. Been wandering into the forest of health claims for nutrients and dietary supplements and functional foods, and in many instances, text is not supported by the cited references - either not at all or weak references. First choice is to find stronger references to support the existing text. Second option is to delete text and reference. At times adding something to Talk explaining why. Intention is to stay within NPOV, i.e., not deleting content that states something does not work while leaving in equally weak content that says it does work. And in these efforts, trying to not get too adamant in my deletism, as that could leave an entry with nothing at all on a topic people expect to find information. David notMD (talk) 13:06, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
Mark Dice revert
Quick question: did you mean to reinsert the IMDB citation? Looked from your edit summary like you wanted to keep it out. TonyBallioni (talk) 19:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Same question, but didn't want to revert your revert right away as I may be missing something. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:05, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
"Blockers"
Regarding this, "blockers" is the WMF's contraction of problem blocking further development
—e.g., "this is such a serious problem we're going to abandon the proposal altogether unless we can get address this problem". While WP:Blockers probably shouldn't be red (even if it means committing the mortal wikisin of making it an off-wiki redirect to that MediaWiki page), it's reasonable that they use the abbreviation given how cumbersome it would be to write out in full each time. ‑ Iridescent 19:52, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah I have seen WMF people use that term to mean only technical things, like "it would break X." I don't know if she meant only that, or also more intangible things like "this would cause vulnerability to BLP violations" or "a gadget that users have to opt-in for will not be used widely enough to have effective policing" or "Wikidata has no BLP policy so there is no way to swiftly and definitively resolve BLP disputes in Wikidata other than whatever local consensus can be obtained at a given data item". Do you see what I mean? I didn't want to put words in her mouth. I would hope that she means all of that and that they ask about all of that. Jytdog (talk) 19:58, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- The Mediawiki page—which is presumably the closest we have to an official definition, despite still being marked as a draft—explicitly includes "consistent with the project", so I'd consider it as including the social impact rather than purely "is this technically possible?". Flow worked fine from a technical viewpoint, but its deployment was blocked because nobody wanted to actually have to use the thing, so there's certainly a high-profile precedent. ‑ Iridescent 20:12, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- I would consider it that way too! :) Jytdog (talk) 20:13, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- If you ask the long-suffering WhatamIdoing—whom I'm not pinging as I've pinged her about four times in the last week and she's no doubt sick of the sight of me—she can probably give a definitive ruling. I assume "Community Liaison (Product Development)" translates from Wikipedese to Human as "paid to clean up messes like this". ‑ Iridescent 20:20, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- I'll ask her thanks! Jytdog (talk) 20:41, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- I would consider it that way too! :) Jytdog (talk) 20:13, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- The Mediawiki page—which is presumably the closest we have to an official definition, despite still being marked as a draft—explicitly includes "consistent with the project", so I'd consider it as including the social impact rather than purely "is this technically possible?". Flow worked fine from a technical viewpoint, but its deployment was blocked because nobody wanted to actually have to use the thing, so there's certainly a high-profile precedent. ‑ Iridescent 20:12, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
I've been specializing as sort of a liaison in the opposite direction, spending the majority of my time at Phabricator and WMF wikis. I've been trying to bring community concerns to their attention and trying to improve WMF-community engagement. The meaning of "actionable blockers" is exactly one of the topics I've been discussing with them. The WMF has been struggling to figure out how to work better with us, and this is part of it. I think I need to give a multi-layer definition of "blockers":
The WMF wouldn't be building something if they didn't think it was a good idea. When they think "blockers" the first thing they have in mind is:
- What are the technical problems we need to fix, so we can continue moving this project forwards.
The WMF reluctantly acknowledges that an unfixable blocker can permanently halt a project. Emphasis on the "reluctantly" part.
What about "non-technical" blockers? Well, that's fuzzy. The WMF often has a hard time understanding what we want and why. Things that are "obvious" to us are sometimes baffling to them. They really hate vague things like "this sucks" or "we don't like it" or "this is worse" or "we don't want it". If they don't understand it, it's not "actionable". They can't figure out what to do with that feedback. I've been told that "Thanks, but we're happy keeping what we had before" is a valid actionable blocker. At least in theory. They can initiate projects based on their opinion that it's a good idea, but they want us to identify concrete problems or data to justify our opposition. There is a general subtext that they will address the issues so the project can proceed.
Crucial point: The Draft Technical Collaboration Guideline (renamed as Guidance) states that the project team "owns" the decision of what is or is not a blocker. I explicitly asked about a Global Community Consensus blocker. (i.e. a blocker supported by consensus at wikis representing a majority of the global editing community.) I suggested that such an issue should be considered an inherently significant issue that must be addressed, that the issue should inherently go to discussion between the WMF and community rather than a simple "decline". That was rejected. The WMF's position is explicitly that global community consensus blockers may be summarily declined by the team developing the project.
Fundamentally, "blocker" means anything they say it means.
You should take a look at the RFC I posted at Village Pump: Proposal to submit blockers on replacing our wikitext editor. I explicitly drafted it with their "blockers" language in mind. Particularly note how it ends with two precisely defined "actionable blockers", and each of them identifies two "actionable" ways to resolve the issue. Regarding load times, obviously everyone agrees faster is better. They are willing to at least attempt to make it faster. It's unclear whether it's possible for them to really fix load times because the new editor is fundamentally based on VisualEditor. Regarding previews, it's open for glacially-slow discussion on Phabricator. However it appears that there is vehement opposition to fixing it. Why? To put it in a nutshell, there is a strong view by many at the WMF that VE and Flow are supposed to be THE editor and discussion system, there is a plan underway to kill wikitext-as-we-know-it, and the broken previews are part of a "well intentioned" sabotage of wikitext. They want all wikitext editing to change over to the broke-ass VE/Flow/Parsoid model.
Anyway, back to the main topic: Wikidata article summaries. In this case it looks like the WMF is taking a positive approach, genuinely wanting to work with us. The problem is that they haven't really figured out how to do that effectively. The RFC was closed, they want to work with us, but I'm pretty sure we need to be the ones to organize effective follow-up discussions. If we do nothing, I am pretty confident in predicting that they will just latch on to the "blockers" and "solutions" they were searching for in that discussion. Namely they will latch on to the idea of showing these summaries to logged in users, and adding an interface so we can remotely-edit the values hosted at wikidata. Those are the "fixable" blockers which are compatible with moving the current project forwards. That's what they'll see, and they will assume that will be adequate to satisfy objections. Based on my reading of the discussion, I am far from confident that is what the community wants. If we want to evaluate that option, as well as weighing alternatives, then we need to get that discussion rolling. Alsee (talk) 23:49, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for this! You made me laugh out loud a couple of times (my boss called down the hall, "What!??") and this seems dead on based on my experiences to date which are scanty. Thank you, very much, for your work trying to bridge these two worlds. Awesome of you to take that on.
- About the RfC I agree with what you say about the en-WP editing "side" needing to help drive it. I am not the best person for that as I don't understand the WMF side well enough. I had left a message at WhatamIdoing's WMF account en-WP talk page asking her to help tee up the RfC and shepherd it, and had also left a message at Olga's talk page offering to help give input. You seem perfect to help tee it up and i would be very grateful and happy to help how ever i can. Jytdog (talk) 00:12, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- Hello, I hope I'm not butting in, but I'd like to add a few clarifying points. Happy to discuss.
- What’s a community liaison?
- Well, when we first started we were more like firefighters without a hose trying to run around and stop all the fires. Now we’re more like the fire inspector, trying to make sure fires don’t start in the first place. We help try to prevent things like the Wikidata description Rfc from happening. Sometimes we’re successful, things go smoothly, and nobody's the wiser. Other times we’re not. Not every product team has CL support and there is more work to be done than person-hours. Sometimes decisions are made that go against our advice. Sometimes we’re not even aware! (This last one happened to me recently when someone from the Swedish Wikipedia community enabled a feature that the team was not ready to deploy!)
- What is a blocker?
- It's a software development term that has spilled out of its confines in our task tracking software, Phabricator. A silly explanation: When you have a task "Paint the gizmo green in color" and you discover that you're out of green paint, you create a task. "Get green paint". The task tracking software allows you to say that the second task is blocking the first from being done - a blocker. Until that task is complete, work can't continue. Once you have green paint, you resolve the second task, and can resume the first. That's overly simplistic and apologies for insulting any unhappy software developers. :)
- The foundation in general follows the principles of Agile software development, which means that we try to be adaptable in how features are introduced and removed. It favors smaller iterative changes over ‘big’ features. An alternative methodology is called Waterfall. A core feature (or in many folks opinions, shortcoming) of the Waterfall model is that it is slower. Once something is a feature, it is there until the Next Big Update - which could be years. Think operating system updates versus your browser updating silently in the background. Wikimedia - the community and the projects they support - is more in tune with agile development. Just like the projects we all work in, it is often a little bit messy. It’s still advantageous, and I hope you’ll agree, that we do work in a system where things can change.
- So when we say blocker outside of that context of agile methodologies and bug/task tracking things get a little muddied. It's also muddled that we (the movement) are multifaceted. What one editor or community would consider a blocker another would be fine with (and a bunch of gray in between). As Alsee points out a blocker can mean anything! That is, anything that is preventing further development, which is broad.
- Can a blocker be non-technical?
- Sure. Well, kind of. In terms of the TCG, blockers are technical or can be solved by technical means or some other action by the devs. A TCG “blocker” is ultimately defined by the Product Manager, because they are responsible for the software and the TCG is speaking in terms of software. "Hey Reading team, I found a big bug that doesn't work in <insert web browser of choice>. Please don't deploy until this is fixed!". Some technical tasks that block development are things that break workflows or have unintended consequences with user scripts.
- Other times something that might be called a "blocker" is less about the technology, and more about the nature of the work being done. If the team does research, has data supporting an decision to develop a change, and can show a need for said change, then it can be difficult to determine what all the possible issues are. We don't always do it this way, but sometimes it's hard for us to see that an issue is a problem when we've already done our homework and folks can still find something new! These kinds of issues are not strictly "blockers" (they don't truly prevent further development in the way that my empty can of green paint prevented further work on the paint job), but they do make us wonder whether that project is appropriate for a particular use or community.
- For these Wikidata descriptions, I can't speak to the decisions that were made, but concerns were expressed and the decision was to move forward. Here we are. :( Ideally we would address the concerns and deploy an updated feature. Those concerns can be technical (I can’t see or edit them on desktop) or non-technical (the English Wikipedia is concerned about BLP).
- Who defines a blocker?
- Well, ideally this would be a shared responsibly. Product teams define some internally (This task has to be done because it greatly hinders user security!) Others are born from conversation with community (A community member realizes that a change would break code on the Main Page).
- When Alsee says "reluctantly" I would agree and I hope you consider why it's understandable. When folks spend time working on something only for it to meet an early end, it can be frustrating. We would much rather see a successful deployment of a feature than an RfC calling for it's removal. When that doesn't go as it should, we ask for blockers to help figure out a way forward.
- So, a blocker needs to be something actionable. It can be technical (fix this bug, make this feature), but it can't be "I don't like it". It also should be something that considers a bigger picture than what can sometimes happen in discussions.
- Sometimes discussions don’t happen! We reach out to communities, ask for feedback and get little feedback. So we then have little to go off of and that can complicate things. I think we’d all agree that we don’t want staff sitting around much. :)
- It helps to consider that many of the folks who show up to Rfcs and similar discussion (like this one!) are the most involved in this sort of work. Product teams should listen, and often do, but sometimes we have to consider the numerous folks who don't turn up and how they would be impacted. That gets tricky and can cause frustration on both ends. "They're not listening to us!" "Who cares about the readers‽" - Ok, those are a bit silly, but I hope you get the point.
- There’s also just, like, a huge number of voices in some of these conversations (not just on-wiki!) that it can be hard to suss out what’s the best way forward.
- What is the Technical Collaboration Guidance?
- Ok, so I'm going to split some hairs, but bear with me. Here in English Wikipedia we use the word guidelines to mean something more akin to policy. The Technical Collaboration Guidance (yes it was called Guideline, we changed the name after feedback that it was confusing. Silly us.) is not a guideline in the typical Wikipedia way. It's truly guidance or general advice. Primarily intended for WMF product teams to reference, it attempts to distill the best practices of Community Liaisons. Why? Well, liaisons were hired after product teams realized they weren't doing the best they could at reaching out and discussing with communities before deploying software changes (some reading this might say it's an understatement). We're in a little better shape now and started to put down what we should do to help remind ourselves and others. Sometimes we hire new liaisons, or liaison-like roles exist elsewhere in the movement (like Seddon in Fundraising or the folks over at Wikimedia Deutschland who do similar community work) or some teams at the Foundation don't have a dedicated liaison (most of the 'behind the scenes' technology folks).
- To be clear, the TCG is not a thing to point at and tell folks where they screwed up. Doing that doesn't make it something folks want to use and turns it into a retroactive "gotcha" versus a proactive aid.
- Who's leading the Rfc on what's next with Wikidata descriptions?
- The Reading team is in the midst of annual planning. We have not made plans for the near future to work on editing Wikidata descriptions from Wikipedia or making changes appear on watchlists. The work mentioned in the conversation around moving the opening section above the infobox is in the plan. That alleviates some of the reasoning for having the Wikidata descriptions.
- If you all think it is advisable, we can create a proposal that summarizes the main issues from the conversation after the Rfc and place that in front of the community to build consensus on how we should continue with development. Given this, and past discussions, we think we know pretty well what the technical blockers are.
- I would very much like to work with you all on figuring out what that Rfc would look like and what would be actionable things we would need to accomplish to move it forward. However, if the feeling is that even after adding the requested features, the English Wikipedia community does not want the feature due to non-technical concerns, then we should agree to address those first.
- Thanks to everyone here for constructive discussion. This got a little long-winded. I hope this helps provide some context from this corner of the yard. @Alsee, Jytdog, and Iridescent: CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 20:32, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for your note User:CKoerner (WMF). This whole thing started because Olga asked for the community to identify blockers. You identify a thing above where you say "When folks spend time working on something only for it to meet an early end, it can be frustrating." I hear that. From my end is frustrating to find decisions being made and foisted on the community, and then we have to identify "blockers" but there is really no point because, well, people have already have already spent time, that is the direction we are going, and hey these people have to do something as they are being paid. I don't know who decided to use the Wikidata labels this way or maybe more importantly what the process was, but it was just ... a bad decision. I get how it seemed attractive/scalable and seemed even kind of clever and elegant, but it was unwise as those fields are unreliable and badly policed. And no the en-WP community should not be blackmailed or hijacked into doing Wiikidata work. WMF should just back out of that. Jytdog (talk) 22:15, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
- @CKoerner (WMF):: thanks for your detailed explanation. I'm still worried about your "Who's leading the Rfc on what's next with Wikidata descriptions?" section though. The first question, and one which should have been asked before any development on this was ever started, should have been "is this a Wikidata thing or a wikipedia language version thing", and the answer would have been "this is language-based text, not some universal data item we can take from Wikidata". So, "what's next with Wikidata descriptions" is the wrong question. "What's next with short descriptions" is the correct one. Do we need them, for what purpose (mobile, seearch, related articles, ...), and how do we populate them (with a local template in the article, but which can be "globally" recognized by the WMF software, so preferably a template with the same name and structure in all languages, a magicword of sorts)? Problems like "how can we get these to show up on the watchlist, but not all other Wikidata changes", "how can we let local wikis overrule the wikidata description" or "how can we make these editable onwiki" all vanish if you go to the fundamental issue first. Fram (talk) 08:42, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Jytdog, "blackmailed or hijacked". Oh jeez. I feel like you took - out of all the things I said - that we're trying to somehow do something nefarious. :( I understand that you have been frustrated at things that the foundation has done (or not done!). I too have been frustrated from time to time - and I'm part of the organization! :) I continue to acknowledge we can make improvements. Language like this doesn't make it easy to keep working with you. The fact that I'm spending time here trying to figure out a positive way forward for with the community should show some good faith. I hear you. Wikidata labels are not the way to go.
- @CKoerner (WMF):: thanks for your detailed explanation. I'm still worried about your "Who's leading the Rfc on what's next with Wikidata descriptions?" section though. The first question, and one which should have been asked before any development on this was ever started, should have been "is this a Wikidata thing or a wikipedia language version thing", and the answer would have been "this is language-based text, not some universal data item we can take from Wikidata". So, "what's next with Wikidata descriptions" is the wrong question. "What's next with short descriptions" is the correct one. Do we need them, for what purpose (mobile, seearch, related articles, ...), and how do we populate them (with a local template in the article, but which can be "globally" recognized by the WMF software, so preferably a template with the same name and structure in all languages, a magicword of sorts)? Problems like "how can we get these to show up on the watchlist, but not all other Wikidata changes", "how can we let local wikis overrule the wikidata description" or "how can we make these editable onwiki" all vanish if you go to the fundamental issue first. Fram (talk) 08:42, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Fram, I appreciate the framing of the question you propose. "What's next with short descriptions". I think the question that started Reading down the path was "How can we help mobile readers get more information quicker - given that our mobile layout isn't as good as we want it?", :) which agrees with Jytdog's concerns over Wikidata descriptions not being the best fit. Perhaps we're being too narrow in our approach.
- If that seems like the agreeable way forward - I encourage others to please chime in - then let's peruse that angle. The questions I think we're agreeing with are:
- Do we need them? Is this a feature that makes learning more approachable for more people?
- Where would these short descriptions be most beneficial? (mobile, search, related articles, ...)
- How are they populated - editor workflows, bots, watch lists, etc.
- If I may, a few technical considerations. This is assuming that short descriptions are something the English Wikipedia (and others in general) want. I might be getting ahead of myself. :)
- I can't speak for Reading, I need to do more homework. My thought is that a structured, short descriptor are needed - and have shown their value - at least for search and the visual editor link inspector.
- A template-based system is probably not the best way forward. I could see that being overly complicated with database design. However, this might be something that the Multi-content Revisions work might incorporate. If I understand it correctly, it would remain local and appear on watch lists, but would be more structured. I can ask around a little more about the technical side of things to confirm.
- I'm concerned that we might need to move this conversation off the gentleman's talk page as to not clutter things up and to broaden the conversation to other editors. Do others agree? Too soon? If others agree can someone help with a suggestion on where? CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 19:32, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- User:CKoerner (WMF) I explained what I meant by "blackmailed"/"hijacked" over at VPP which I assumed you had read and remembered. My bad for assuming that. I will copy it here for you:
as i understand it
- there are people who want this field drawn from Wikidata, and to be good and useful (e.g. this comment from User:PrimeHunter) and having a local override is .. not elegant, breaks things etc.
- these same people generally want to have the en-WP community monitoring these fields and editing and improving them. They see that as a win for everybody, as this label can be used in lots of places. from that perspective, making the label visible in desktop en-WP and easily editable and not over-ridable is the way to go.
- in my view, while i get that, i think these people fail to recognize that volunteer time is the lifeblood of this project and every WMF project, and that their line of reasoning is basically blackmail similar to the orangemoody scheme - it sounds like this: "I am going to stick some words from Wikidata onto this en-WP page. Fix it in Wikidata if it goes awry and if you don't, well too bad for en-WP". (I know that is not the intention, but as someone to whom Wikidata is peripheral and has no interest in it, that is what it sounds like to me.) It is siphoning off volunteer time and attention to en-WP to benefit Wikidata and whatever else people want to feed from that. My commitment is to en-WP. That is what I volunteer for.
- What is more foundational are the basic "constitutional" issues here. Every project has its own consensus, own policies and guidelines, etc. Wikidata is a young project with few policies and will have its own trajectory in developing them. It isn't appropriate, and I have no desire to even try, to enforce en-WP policies in a project where en-WP policies have no consensus (the bedrock of all WMF projects) and do not apply - it is disrespectful to the Wikidata community and a clash of mission and values that makes sense for no one.
- If there are aesthetic issues with presentation of en-WP articles in mobile, the right answer is for the Reading team to explain that and ask the en-WP community to add a new element to the Manual of Style - namely the "brief description" and that is something we can build with time. Or the like. Jytdog (talk) 22:40, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
- That is what I wrote over there. There is a conversation (mostly petered out) at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Blockers_to_having_short_description_on_mobile. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, a more structured, well-mediated, centralized discussion is indeed needed. Dank has also opened the discussion at WT:FAC that they mentioned in the thread just below this one. It is here: Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates#First_2.5_paragraphs_of_the_lead. Jytdog (talk) 19:41, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- I'm concerned that we might need to move this conversation off the gentleman's talk page as to not clutter things up and to broaden the conversation to other editors. Do others agree? Too soon? If others agree can someone help with a suggestion on where? CKoerner (WMF) (talk) 19:32, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Too soon?
Regarding this: I just checked on a mobile device, and the description from Wikidata was still showing below the page title. So, I'm wondering if the discussion stopped too soon. It's possible that I would close this or a related discussion (I need would need to run it by a couple of folks), and one question jumps out at me right away. The sentiment seemed to be strong, and the WMF folks seemed to agree with the sentiment. That's gold ... it doesn't happen that often that just about everyone is on board, and so I was sorry to see the discussion end. But was it ready to end? Wikipedians on the whole neither know nor care about specific designations of Wikidata fields ... that is, what I'm seeing in the discussion is that people don't like seeing text: 1. on the mobile version of Wikipedia 2. right below the page title 3. that comes from Wikidata 4. that can't be edited on Wikipedia, and doesn't show up on at least some watchlists, and, crucially 5. that's been demonstrated to last for hours in a vandalized state. It looks like the WMF people want to remove that particular field, and they believe that addresses the concerns expressed. But does it? On mobile devices, infoboxes (and possibly other things) that contain Wikidata fields often get pushed to the top, often on the right-hand side, and they sometimes contain Wikidata fields at the very top. Someone knowledgeable about Wikidata might say "oh, that's a completely different thing" ... but in general, voters from Wikipedia didn't seem to care how the field was defined, they were responding to the five points I mentioned ... which it seems to me could apply to certain fields at the top of infoboxes that have been pushed to the top of the page. So ... if any version of that discussion resumes, I hope someone will clarify, otherwise I would be closing what I think of as a not-at-all-clear discussion. - Dank (push to talk) 17:33, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- Just a heads-up that I've also alerted Sarah, and since Alsee is talking about related points just above, I'll ping him too. - Dank (push to talk) 17:55, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- User:Dank (pinging in case you are not watching) Thanks for your note! When doing the cat-herding of gathering community consensus i like tight questions with clear answers, and that is what the RfC was - yes/no on take them down now. I agree 100% that more discussion is needed! I don't the know-how nor skills to frame that RfC in a way that would elicit the kind of feedback that WMF folks would find useful in some way that allows the voices of en-WP to be heard. And there are many issues/wrinkles - you bring up new ones above.
- So I chose to close the one I opened and call for a second.
- If you think I should unclose it and that the ongoing discussion would be useful, please say so and I will unclose. You are way more clueful about gathering consensus on big issues than me. Jytdog (talk) 19:56, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, I don't need it unclosed, I trust you, dog. But if it's not unclosed, and if the wikidata text isn't removed within a few days, then it seems to me the voters are going to want to have some kind of voice in what happens, so maybe a new discussion sooner rather than later? - Dank (push to talk) 20:04, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- I just checked a bunch of articles on mobile and found no descriptions on them. .... Jytdog (talk) 19:46, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Been thinking about this problem, which seems potentially significant to me. I think I'm going to back away from being a closer, and roll up my sleeves and get involved. I'll start off with a thread at WT:FAC, and see where that takes us. Feel free to join. - Dank (push to talk) 16:46, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Slate Star Codex AfD
Because the general notability guideline doesn't precisely define "significant coverage", I would appreciate it if you could answer the following two questions about your Delete comment in the Slate Star Codex AfD, to help me in future.
1. Could you describe what was it about the reliable sources that we cited in the article that made their coverage of Slate Star Codex not significant, in your view?
2. Can you give me an idea of what changes (e.g. more reliable sources, more in-depth coverage in a reliable source) would have changed your mind on this AfD - and what is the minimum you would require to change your mind?
For reference, the article has been automatically preserved by Deletionpedia here.--greenrd (talk) 08:13, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- What isn't clear to you about my comment in the AfD? Jytdog (talk) 08:34, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- Firstly, as I noted elsewhere in the AfD discussion, Reason magazine is not a blog, and nor are Noah Smith's columns that are syndicated in newspapers. Nor is Vox. Secondly, even if something is a blog, that doesn't necessarily mean it's not a reliable source, and significance is a property of the coverage, not the source. So I'm not sure that the classification of sources as blogs is all that relevant. You may not like blogs being used as sources, but there's nothing to support that in the guidelines (maybe there once was, but not any more).--greenrd (talk) 09:43, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
Please stop to WP:THREATEN
This [2] kind of threat is an unacceptable WP:THREATEN violation. Really. Another editor now has now disagreed with your position and undone your your edit war [3]. Please don't judge and don't threaten others without taking more care. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.LanceUnderpants (talk)
- I am trying to warn you that your zealousness to debunk anti-vax activism is taking you too far. These discretionary sanctions exist for good reason and if you don't mind them, they will end up being applied to you. That is not a threat - -that is how things work here. And no, Guy's edit did not restore what you did -- not even close. It is concerning that you cannot see why his edit was OK and yours was not. Jytdog (talk) 00:53, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) Jytdog as you were not notified properly, the above user has filed an ANI against you. Claiming you have threatened them, which clearly you haven't. Chris "WarMachineWildThing" Talk to me 02:29, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Re: ongoing discussion on hte Christianity and violence wiki page
Message added 03:30, 2 April 2017 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
TourBus2020 (talk) 03:41, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Kombucha
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kombucha#Deaths Gerntrash (talk) 19:01, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi, regarding this revert, please advice which part is NPOV. The intro was added from Ten_Commandments_in_Catholic_theology#Fifth_commandment and using many secondary sources. Other edits was a rearrangement from the old contents and I classified them into new subsections. I'll try to fix it based on your advice. Thanks, Ign christian (talk) 12:47, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
- thx. self-reverted and worked it over more carefully. how did a citation from the daily mail get in there?? Jytdog (talk) 17:34, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for your edits, and for replacing the daily mail with better source. How about adding a bit from Kreeft, without additional details, which was removed entirely: "The basis of all Catholic teaching about the fifth commandment is the sanctity of life ethic, which Peter Kreeft argues is philosophically opposed to the quality of life ethic." ? This sentence will complement the previous sentence about killing, since the sentence "Jesus expanded it to prohibit unjust anger, hatred and vengeance, and to require Christians to love their enemies." was removed. Thanks, Ign christian (talk) 02:39, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- Why Kreeft and not say Augustine or if you want somebody contemporary, somebody like Ratzinger? Seems UNDUE. Jytdog (talk) 02:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- Kreeft is commonly regarded as a notable modern professor in Catholicism. But if the author is considered as the main problem I will find another source with equal words. Thanks, Ign christian (talk) 07:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- Why Kreeft and not say Augustine or if you want somebody contemporary, somebody like Ratzinger? Seems UNDUE. Jytdog (talk) 02:47, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks for your edits, and for replacing the daily mail with better source. How about adding a bit from Kreeft, without additional details, which was removed entirely: "The basis of all Catholic teaching about the fifth commandment is the sanctity of life ethic, which Peter Kreeft argues is philosophically opposed to the quality of life ethic." ? This sentence will complement the previous sentence about killing, since the sentence "Jesus expanded it to prohibit unjust anger, hatred and vengeance, and to require Christians to love their enemies." was removed. Thanks, Ign christian (talk) 02:39, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Self help books review not a literature review - Anxiety article
Pease point out the exact definition given for a Literature Revew in Wikipedia guidelines - I could not see it. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arch0172 (talk • contribs) 13:46, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
- See WP:MEDRS. In this diff you added this ref which is more of a product review than a literature review of the evidence that self-books can actually help people. Jytdog (talk) 17:36, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Please explain
Please explain and preferably undo this edit [4]. There was nothing aggressive at all here, apart from a removal of a long-standing image on flimsy grounds. We can't just remove things because single editors give flawed rationales for why they object to a section. Carl Fredrik talk 00:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- I did already. I really appreciate all the work you do but you have been way too heavy handed at MEDRS, turning this guideline more into an instruction manual. As I said to you before, you don't seem to understand how policies and guidelines operate - they aren't rulebooks. Jytdog (talk) 02:44, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Neuralink
I never liked the idea of any taxpayers' money going to business enterprises, so I'm no big fan of Musk...and I'm now, as of today, wondering about the hoax/scam possibilities of everything he's touched. I'm considering abandoning the article....I assume you think its worth spending time on? Nocturnalnow (talk) 22:54, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
- There is not a lot more to say about the company now, from an encyclopedia perspective, than the bit that is there. The refs outside of the original WSJ are pretty much just media circus hype and speculation. I have considered nominating it for deletion but that would probably just turn into a food fight, so am OK with it remaining as is and just keeping CRYSTALBALL and other kinds of speculation out of it. Jytdog (talk) 23:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi, I totally agree on the "all hype" judgement. Why do we have to live with even more detailed hype on pages like Mind uploading to give just one example? 84.151.200.201 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:16, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Guys, I am not spending more time on this, since you seem to be enjoying to do police here. May I ask which of you guys has any idea about the stuff on Mind uploading? or is there a neuroscientist here to judge the 'relevance' of topics discussed on Neuralink? I started to read the rules on WP and now I am aware of external links and spamming etc. (thanks to Jytdog!) but please be aware that wikipedia is a source for many people to track knowledge and find external links. People are aware of the nature of the WP and take care of the reliability themselves. It is not a peer-reviewed journal. Best luck Zombehpedia (talk) 08:58, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Yes "Mind uploading" needs work. It is not high on my priority list (it is science fiction and is clear enough (barely) about that - I am more concerned with real world things) but I reckon I will get to it. Jytdog (talk) 09:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello Jytdog. I look forward to resolving our dispute regarding page "Ed Gillespie." As stated below at the Gillespie talk page, please state your objection to the bonafide entry below, so that we may arrive at a just resolution. I claim that the entry below is bonafide. <redacted> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juankimnoah (talk • contribs) 00:30, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Heads up: I think you're being impersonated on Twitter
This doesn't seem like something you would do at all. Just thought you should know. Nopewasntme (talk) 05:10, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks - that is very kind of you to let me know. there is no end to bullshit is there. Jytdog (talk) 05:18, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- My guess is that it is related to the AVN mess, as I went through the same thing, only a bit less subtle. Twitter will kill fake accounts very quickly if you contact them. - Bilby (talk) 05:23, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks - done already :). Will be interesting to see how they deal with someone impersonating an anonymous WP account! Jytdog (talk) 05:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Based on what happened last time, my theory was that the plan was to make it look like you were anti-vax, and then use that against you on-wiki (or in my case, with my employer). But being anonymous gives you a lot more protection, and can't see anyone here ever falling for it with you, so it could never work if that was the intent. - Bilby (talk) 07:31, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Maybe. Somebody carrying a lot of anger around with nothing useful to do with their time. People do weird shit when they are bored. Jytdog (talk) 07:37, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Could be more nefarious and related to Wikipedia as a whole. By logging into my twitter account I can see:
- Of his 5 followers, 2 are Wikipedia somethings, [5] and [6]
- Of the 52 accounts he follows 13 are Wikimedia and Wikipedia related
- The 1 of 2 retweets he posted is a retweet of the bot that announces new articles,to [7]....and that article was created 4 days ago by a User who was inactive until this year and very active since. I have to wonder whether that User and the Twitter impersonator are the same or connected. I speculate that this is all about money in view of him offering Wikipedia services on his twitter account. Nocturnalnow (talk) 15:20, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Maybe. Somebody carrying a lot of anger around with nothing useful to do with their time. People do weird shit when they are bored. Jytdog (talk) 07:37, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Based on what happened last time, my theory was that the plan was to make it look like you were anti-vax, and then use that against you on-wiki (or in my case, with my employer). But being anonymous gives you a lot more protection, and can't see anyone here ever falling for it with you, so it could never work if that was the intent. - Bilby (talk) 07:31, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks - done already :). Will be interesting to see how they deal with someone impersonating an anonymous WP account! Jytdog (talk) 05:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- My guess is that it is related to the AVN mess, as I went through the same thing, only a bit less subtle. Twitter will kill fake accounts very quickly if you contact them. - Bilby (talk) 05:23, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Wow... just wow. It takes a special kind of asshole to do something like that. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢) 05:30, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Unpleasant! Still, "Imitation is a kind of artless Flattery."[8] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:15, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with both of the comments just above mine. Sigh. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:29, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- If there´s an admin watching, Nopewasntme should probably be blocked because [9]. If he feels he should IAR-sock again, he can always IAR-sock again. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:48, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
- Has already been blocked by Widr...Lectonar (talk) 07:57, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
- My mistake. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:08, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
- Has already been blocked by Widr...Lectonar (talk) 07:57, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
- a note on this. I have tried several times (six now maybe?) to get twitter to delete that account through their report an impersonator tool and I just keep getting back automated rejections. I created my own twitter account at Jytdog_WP just to pose a counter to that one. I am not going to use it for much, as i have little interest in the social media echosphere. but i am have spent as much effort on that as i care to. Jytdog (talk) 01:05, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- How droll. They are claiming that my Jytdog_WP account impersonates them. Idiot universe. Jytdog (talk) 01:09, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Redirect Ferric carboxymaltose
Hi Jytdog Ferric carboxymaltose used to be redirected to Iron supplement. I established a proper page for ferric carboxymaltose and took out the redirection. As compensation I linked the topic iron supplementation within the ferric carboxymaltose page to the Iron supplement page. I believe it is quite standard that drugs may have own pages in Wikipedia. See Ropinirole, Atenolol, Evolocumab, etc. To my point of view the Ferric carboxymaltose page meets this standard criteria and is worth to be kept an proper page without being redirected. May I ask you to redo your changes regarding redirection. Of course any improvements of the page are welcome. I'm quite new with editing and not yet familiar with all features. Thanks Healthmed (talk) 07:58, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
?coi
[10]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 18:32, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
- yep, refspam. left a few of them where they seemed to actually add value. Jytdog (talk) 01:54, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Omega-3
J - I have put in a lot of time this week trying to update referencing and improve clarity on the omega-3 entry. I also started a Talk new section on the updated AHA guidelines. I left a note on DocJames Talk page notifying him of all this, and asking if he can please review changes. I reminded him of my situation (consultant to industry), but added that none of my work at Wikipedia requested by my clients, nor are they aware of my activity. I am trying very hard to avoid COI and to maintain NPOV. You are welcome to look at the changes, but I would prefer DJ gets first hack at it (he is away on vacation). Please weigh in on my Talk if you feel I've gone seriously astray. David notMD (talk) 16:27, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
- i will look. there is a whole slew of articles around fatty acids (like ten at least) that are a mess and need cleanup. Jytdog (talk) 20:34, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for turning this into such an interesting article. Maybe we can use it as an example for future students. StarryGrandma (talk) 16:12, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
- glad you found it interesting; after i dug into it i found their business model remarkable (they found a way to make money off the internet by something other than "eyeballs"... the perennial problem), and am really curious about what they are going to use that $100M for. new business model coming maybe. thanks for bringing better refs to the table! Jytdog (talk) 20:32, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
- I second StarryGrandma, thanks for the revisions. -Reagle (talk) 06:44, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- Regarding this request, I went ahead and merged Ipsy (company) into Ipsy. I then thought about it a bit more, and swapped the histories so the one with the oldest received the merge. Essentially in the end, the content which originally resided at Itsy was merged into the content at Itsy (company), and then the titles were swapped. The redirect from Ipsy (company) serves as attribution and is marked as an {{r from merge}}. Best Regards, — Godsy (TALKCONT) 06:42, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
CSD - Bilateral Opercular Syndrome
Hello Jytdog. I first noticed this article because of the auto hidden category Category:Pages_with_duplicate_reference_names, so I fixed its reference tag. But at the same time I saw the CSD notice, but wondered if it was a mistake. The summary says that this article has no relevant history or has not expanded on the other mentioned article. However, the other article seems to only be a stub. I could be mistaken, but I don't immediately see what is particularly wrong with this article; but I wanted to get your input instead of just removing the tag. Thank you, —░]PaleoNeonate█ ⏎ ?ERROR░ 03:49, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- There was already an article on this topic, as the speedy delete notice says. This student (as other students in this class have done) is simply shoving their articles into mainspace under alternative names instead of integrating with existing content. We don't allow duplicate articles in WP. Jytdog (talk) 04:08, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- Wouldn't moving/userfication and a message to the main author be more appropriate than CSD in this case? This isn't a controversial POV fork, a non-notable or attack BLP, and it would be easy to merge the articles. What if noone has time to react and the author is confused or has no time to work on it (course over if a student, or whatever)? This becomes a systematically lost contribution, unless someone else also notices in time, to save its source, contest or request for undelete/userfication procedures. This is almost like if we didn't assume good faith or cared about the quality of the content. Shouldn't CSD nominators also use their own judgement to perhaps use another solution in cases like this, where deletion is obviously not ideal? Or perhaps even, help in the merging process (build the encyclopedia), rather than defeat it? This makes me wonder what other potentially precious contributions could have been lost like this, or if the CSD policy might need amendment, if you're really following it to the letter (I'm taking a note to reread it). Thanks, —░]PaleoNeonate█ ⏎ ?ERROR░ 15:42, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- BTW, I want to make clear that I'm not accusing you, I'm trying to understand. Thanks, —░]PaleoNeonate█ ⏎ ?ERROR░ 16:00, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- The admin at the subject article found a better solution. No this is not something I usually do. Jytdog (talk) 17:53, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- Hmm do you mean the move/redirect and blanking (which is what allowed me to eventually still access the new article by forging URLs, i.e. at Bilateral opercular syndrome)? If so, does this mean that it will not get deleted at current time? If so, I'll probably leave a note to the author about where it is still possible to access the article source, for eventual merging. Thanks, —░]PaleoNeonate█ ⏎ ?ERROR░ 18:36, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- I noticed your messages to the concerned editors. Thanks for your help, —░]PaleoNeonate█ ⏎ ?ERROR░ 19:01, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- The admin at the subject article found a better solution. No this is not something I usually do. Jytdog (talk) 17:53, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
(unrelated) Bing–Neel syndrome would have been next on my list for citation cleanup (it showed up in the same hidden category), but I see you already handled this beautifully. Thanks, —░]PaleoNeonate█ ⏎ ?ERROR░ 20:17, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Detecting COPYVIO
Jytdog thank you for detecting the COPYVIO on Coiled sewn sandals. Beyond manually checking the prose against the source (which is what I assume you did here), do you recommend or use a tool? I always wonder if User:EranBot would be watching all edits but never saw anything flagged, but I just found Earwig's Copyvio Detector, which is awesome, but has to be run manually? I'd like to improve my capabilities on this front -- at University we have Turnitin built in to course submission. -Reagle (talk) 06:38, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- that is the best tool i know of. User:Doc James does a lot of copyvio patrolling and may have other suggestions. Jytdog (talk) 09:52, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- EranBot has turned into CopyPatrol
- CopyPatrol looks at all new edits to En WP over a certain size but does not pick them all up. It is based on Turnitin which is giving us a free license.
- I am sure those doing the follow up would love to have more people join them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:55, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- I found the copying when I tried to un-orphan the article by linking to it in the text of sandal. I opened the reference to see how best to do this, and things looked very familiar. Before putting up the notice I did try Duplication Detector and Earwig's Copyvio Detector but neither of them picked up the copy well. They flagged short similar phrases and missed the longer direct copies from a large pdf. Maybe CopyPatrol would have done better. Students take shortcuts, but I hadn't suspected this. StarryGrandma (talk) 16:50, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
- Yes the problem is common unfortunately.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:29, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- StarryGrandma, thanks for that. -Reagle (talk) 12:48, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Thoughts
Wondering your thoughts on:
Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:29, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Brendon Burchard revert
The Wikipedia guidelines indicates links to social networking websites like Facebook, MySpace, etc. are to be avoided. That makes a lot of sense.
But YouTube, although it has social media features, is mostly a content website (video content website). It has films, documentaries, etc.
And from a practical point, the type of people who would go to his Wikipedia page would want to see his business and motivational videos. Knox490 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:42, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- Nope. This is exactly what ELNO is meant to avoid. People can find his youtube channel from his personal webpage. Jytdog (talk) 02:46, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- I wouldn't list YouTube for every public figure. Just for public figures who create a lot of popular video content and have a specialty for creating video content. Knox490 (talk)
- You are just wikilawyering this to death. A youtube channel is pretty much deadon social media. Adding it is just promotional, as this is how the guy creates leads that he makes money from, being an internet marketer and all. You can start an RfC at the article talk page if you want; it will likely go down in flames as the promotional nature of the link is obvious. Jytdog (talk) 02:59, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- The guy is a mix between a motivational speaker and internet marketing guru. I thought he was more of a motivational speaker so I put the YouTube link. I thought people would like to watch his motivational videos. I don't follow the guy that closely. I just watched a couple of his motivational videos and I thought they were not the typical "get rich quick" fare.
- You are just wikilawyering this to death. A youtube channel is pretty much deadon social media. Adding it is just promotional, as this is how the guy creates leads that he makes money from, being an internet marketer and all. You can start an RfC at the article talk page if you want; it will likely go down in flames as the promotional nature of the link is obvious. Jytdog (talk) 02:59, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- I wouldn't list YouTube for every public figure. Just for public figures who create a lot of popular video content and have a specialty for creating video content. Knox490 (talk)
I am a fairly inexperienced editor at Wikipedia.
I looked at the various Wikipedia pages for motivational speakers, musical groups and other places where I would expect to find YouTube video links and I do not find them.
Thanks for the tip. I wish the guidelines were more explicit as that would make it easier on the more inexperienced editors. Knox490 (talk)
- I appreciate you talking! Happy to talk if any questions arise as you keep working. Jytdog (talk) 03:31, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
- I just found this page: Wikipedia:Ten Simple Rules for Editing Wikipedia. It greatly simplifies things. The wiki markup is a piece of cake. I have done programming in the past. Knox490 (talk)
Question Regarding Sockpuppetry
Hey, my understanding is that CheckUser will generally only check two registered users against each other, and not a user and an IP address. So is there anywhere to bring up something like this [11], or do we just need to pretend we can't see it? Alephb (talk) 03:26, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- (talk page watcher) @Alephb: Still at WP:SPI. Open a case but don't ask for a CU. Admins will judge on the behavioral evidence you present. --NeilN talk to me 03:29, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. Will do. Alephb (talk) 03:30, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- Template:Ce I was about to say the same thing. In other words, the anons can be part of the SPI (there's even a place for them in the blank template created when you open a new case) but there will never be a definitive correlation between the IP and the registered account. Behavioral evidence means things like similar writing style, editing platform tags, choice of subjects, etc. as opposed to "technical evidence" like IP address and browser. - Bri (talk) 03:32, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks. Will do. Alephb (talk) 03:30, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- My answer, is that it depends on whether the person is pretending to be a different person while they edit logged-out so that they look like 2 people (like revert while logged in, then log out, and revert again). Editing while logged out is not itself a violation of SOCK. It is very unwise to edit contentiously while logged out as it ~looks~ a lot like trying to SOCK. But I looked at those pages, and I don't see that they are trying to look like two people. I would leave the user a note at their talk page and ask them to let folks at the various talk pages know if they were editing while logged out. If they won't acknowledge it, then I would an open an SPI as this is definitely quacking. They are disruptive for sure. But not necessarily in doing this.
- On the other hand there were a couple of IPs reverting at Abraham.... so either way. An SPI would be justified as NeilN said. Jytdog (talk) 03:36, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) @Alephb: If there is a need for the CU, the clerks will usually add it and endorse in my experience. Although a checkuser cannot publicly link an IP to an account, they will have access to the data if it escalates to needing to check that technical evidence. I did look at this though because I saw the discussion going on in my watchlist and I think the behavioral evidence is enough for evaluation. -- Dane talk 04:56, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- In the edits and elsewhere, BedrockPerson has claimed he's not the IP. And the IP shows up (in almost all cases that it appears) in the middle of an argument between Bedrock and somebody else. It does not show up when Bedrock is peacefully editing all by his lonesome. I've filed it at SPI, though I'm not positive if I'm making some kind of procedural mistake in all this. I've read through literally all the diffs where they work together, and it looks like unmistakeable shenagigans from where I stand. There's a couple other IP's probably involved, but I stuck to the one I had better evidence for.Alephb (talk) 05:03, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker) @Alephb: If there is a need for the CU, the clerks will usually add it and endorse in my experience. Although a checkuser cannot publicly link an IP to an account, they will have access to the data if it escalates to needing to check that technical evidence. I did look at this though because I saw the discussion going on in my watchlist and I think the behavioral evidence is enough for evaluation. -- Dane talk 04:56, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
COI
To your point about conflict of interest, of course you're right: anyone who is not a volunteer has a conflict of interest. Mduvekot (talk) 11:53, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
- well, hm. That is not really the issue with classes that come here to edit. There is a very specific (and to me, clear) set of external interests there. Jytdog (talk) 11:57, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.
This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the [[WP:DRN]] regarding Fenugreek. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:Fenugreek.23A_herb.2Fan_herb. The discussion is about the topic Fenugreek. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! --Porphyro (talk) 14:07, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
SAM-e
J - Thanks for all the hard work on keeping the SAM-e entry based on high quality reviews and meta-analyses rather than peoples' desires to cherry-pick favorable clinical trial results. This has always been contentious, and sadly, a search at clinicaltrials.gov found little being done vis-a-vis new research for depression, osteoarthritis or liver disease. David notMD (talk) 15:55, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Berkeley issues
I hate to promote my own userspace, but if you want things to pull from for that Berkeley class, see User:Train2104/Berkeley NPOV articles for a list. – Train2104 (t • c) 16:50, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
- I just found this after randomly visiting Jytdog's user page. I was unaware of the other sections beyond 105, which is where I had run into the NPOV issues. Train2104, is this a comprehensive list of all the Berkeley articles? I'm only asking because they IMO they should all be checked for copyvios and plagiarism after two cases I found over the weekend. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:58, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- @TonyBallioni: As far as I can tell, yes. The 6 links at the top go to every article they've ever edited, if I understand WikiEdu correctly. I went through those to make this list, though I can't guarantee it's complete since some of the pages they've been worked on have been moved numerous times. – Train2104 (t • c) 03:07, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- Sigh. Thanks. I'll go through the rest. Don't know how I missed the other class sections. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:11, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- @TonyBallioni: As far as I can tell, yes. The 6 links at the top go to every article they've ever edited, if I understand WikiEdu correctly. I went through those to make this list, though I can't guarantee it's complete since some of the pages they've been worked on have been moved numerous times. – Train2104 (t • c) 03:07, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you!
I just wanted to publicly thank you for the recent advice you gave me. I have taken the suggested action. A good friend is someone who quietly warns you about this sort of thing and you showed yourself to be a good friend today. Again, thanks. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:27, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Only warning
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
You are reverting a version that was agreed upon by 4 editors. However much you think you are right, you can not do that.
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.Please be particularly aware that Wikipedia's policy on edit warring states:
- Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made.
- Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.
If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes; work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Debresser (talk) 22:24, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- User:Debresser why not just provide a source as requested and as required by WP:V? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- I'll be happy to do so sometime in the near future, but I have a problem with an editor going against a unanimous talkpage consensus of 4 other editors and removing a statement that was in the article for years. There is simply no way that can be okay. Debresser (talk) 23:09, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- You are misrepresenting the consensus; repeating a lie does make it true. The content had been tagged disputed since 2015. I will launch the RfC tonight which will be a SNOW close against you. Your editing and behavior here are way beyond the pale. Jytdog (talk) 23:16, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- It is than best to leave the content out until someone can get around to finding a reference to support it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:45, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- In view of the fact that 4 editors agree with it, and that is no misrepresentation as Jytdog mistakenly calls it, and the fact that this information has been in the article for years, I fail to see the hurry and strongly recommend to chill and give it a few days. Debresser (talk) 15:47, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- It is than best to leave the content out until someone can get around to finding a reference to support it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:45, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- You are misrepresenting the consensus; repeating a lie does make it true. The content had been tagged disputed since 2015. I will launch the RfC tonight which will be a SNOW close against you. Your editing and behavior here are way beyond the pale. Jytdog (talk) 23:16, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- I'll be happy to do so sometime in the near future, but I have a problem with an editor going against a unanimous talkpage consensus of 4 other editors and removing a statement that was in the article for years. There is simply no way that can be okay. Debresser (talk) 23:09, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
- User:Debresser why not just provide a source as requested and as required by WP:V? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:03, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
ANI
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Sitush (talk) 08:38, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Hi Jytdog, Thank you for your review for our page! The wiki page is actually still in progress and we will add more citations in 2-3 days. About the topic, we are student from UCB and this is actually our final project. The subsections are already set up and we do not have too much flexibility. Would you mind we move the section back to the page until the end of semester and also give us some advice about how should we improve in order to make it more related to the page topic? Thank you again! Ljqianl (talk) 23:00, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- Hi User:Ljqianl thanks for your note. Wikipedia is the commons and governed by community policies and guidelines. Just like companies don't have the write to dump things into public waters, classes don't have the right to take over space in the commons for classwork. Can you see that? If you want to work privately feel free to move the article into User space and you can do (mostly) what you like there. (It is a little weird to do while there is an AfD running but people will probably continue cutting you all slack for that). If you don't know how to move an article I can do that for you. Jytdog (talk) 23:39, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
- Hi User:jytdog Thank you for your advice and we are 100% understand what you said! We will try to talk with our instructor and figure out what should we do for the following steps. Because our project are required to present on a wiki page, it might not work if we move it to the user space. But thank you again and we totally appreciate all of your suggestions!Ljqianl (talk) 23:19, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
April 2017
Your recent editing history at Plummer v. State shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.
Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
The material was included by consensus, including discussion on the sources. You need to get consensus to remove it. GregJackP Boomer! 18:34, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
This is your only warning; if you purposefully and blatantly harass a fellow Wikipedian again, as you did at User talk:GregJackP, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. You have previously been advised to stay off of my talk page after the blatant harassment you were involved in. GregJackP Boomer! 18:35, 19 April 2017 (UTC)