Proofreader77 (talk | contribs) →Disturbing Behaviors.: (Point of personal privilege) My comment-processing text buffer is overflowing, :-) would the honorable Hell In A Bucket consider using interspersed <p> codes to make Christmas comprehension easier? (Merry Christmas |
Unbroken Chain (talk | contribs) →Disturbing Behaviors.: Learning moment |
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* ([[Raise a question of privilege#Point_of_Personal_Privilege|Point of personal privilege]]) My comment-processing text buffer is overflowing, :-) would the honorable [[User:Hell in a Bucket|Hell In A Bucket]] consider using interspersed <nowiki><p></nowiki> codes to make Christmas comprehension easier? (smiling but not joking) Merry Christmas. [[User:Proofreader77|Proofreader77]] ([[User talk:Proofreader77|talk]]) 22:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC) |
* ([[Raise a question of privilege#Point_of_Personal_Privilege|Point of personal privilege]]) My comment-processing text buffer is overflowing, :-) would the honorable [[User:Hell in a Bucket|Hell In A Bucket]] consider using interspersed <nowiki><p></nowiki> codes to make Christmas comprehension easier? (smiling but not joking) Merry Christmas. [[User:Proofreader77|Proofreader77]] ([[User talk:Proofreader77|talk]]) 22:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC) |
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::Learning moment. What is a "interspersed code"? [[User:Hell in a Bucket|Hell In A Bucket]] ([[User talk:Hell in a Bucket|talk]]) 22:18, 25 December 2009 (UTC) |
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== Merry Christmas! == |
== Merry Christmas! == |
Revision as of 22:18, 25 December 2009
(Manual archive list) |
Arbcom 2010 appointments
1. This year, I am requiring all successful candidates to identify to the WMF or to me personally (but preferably to the WMF) before being seated. This point has been strongly supported by ArbCom and the community. The ArbCom has interpreted this requirement to mean "that people do not gain access to mailing lists nor Checkuser/Oversight until they have identified." I am interpreting it a bit more broadly - you aren't an ArbCom member until you identify.
2. All candidates should contact me at my usual email address (jwales) at the Foundation (wikimedia.org) to give their preferred email address. I will be passing these to Risker, who will be doing the actual additions.
3. I am not appointing anyone who gets less than 50% support. Fortunately, the lowest candidate needed to fill all available seats got 59.9% support, so we are not faced with any issue there.
4. I have asked privately of the ArbCom for any objections - to be expressed either to the ArbCom as a whole, or to me privately if necessary - to any of the top candidates. I have received none. I have also received no particular valid objections to any of the candidates from anyone.
5. Kirill Lokshin, Fritzpoll, Coren, Mailer diablo and Steve Smith are hereby appointed to two year terms expiring 31 December 2011.
6. SirFozzie, Hersfold, KnightLago and Shell Kinney are hereby appointed to one year terms expiring 31 December 2010.
7. In the event of retirements or vacancies for any two year seat (including the seats held by existing ArbCom members), I reserve the right to move any of the 4 one year appointees into a two year seat. Since there was some interest from some members of the community in me appointing all 9 to two year seats, I don't think this will be controversial. As usual, I am not likely to make interim appointments unless there is a strong desire by existing ArbCom members that we replenish in some fashion by having a fresh election, something I don't foresee happening.
Finally, I would like to ask all incoming ArbCom members to review the history of the ArbCom, and in particular to familiarize yourself with some of the worst "political problems" that ArbCom has faced, in the hopes of gaining some wisdom to avoid such issues in the coming year.
Your job is hard. No matter how well you perform your duties, some will say you have been too lenient. Some will say you have been too strict. And some will say that you've been inconsistent or arbitrary. Likewise, some will criticize you for moving too quickly, and others will criticize you for moving too slowly.
Strive to be none of those things, neither too lenient nor too strict, neither too quick nor too slow. And never inconsistent or arbitary. But know that you will face those claims anyway. Face those claims with friendliness and dignity, and all will be fine in the end.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:59, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- (Timestamp:) Just finished that sonnet ... for Shell Kinney. -- Proofreader77 (talk) 06:08, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
{SK.AC.01} ____ At infinite improbability
{SK.AC.02} ____ there's nothing that can't happen. Press engage.
{SK.AC.03} ____ The matrix calculations find the key
{SK.AC.04} ____ to place her, oh so rightly, on the stage.
{SK.AC.05} ____ One year's enough to let her wisdom shine
{SK.AC.06} ____ upon the scales that sometimes lose the light.
{SK.AC.07} ____ (I know the grace her gesture brought to mine.)
{SK.AC.08} ____ The matrix knows her judgement will be right.
{SK.AC.09} ____ The coefficient of her fam'ly brought
{SK.AC.10} ____ a briefer burden — yes, the matrix cares. :-)
{SK.AC.11} ____ Responsibility must not be wrought
{SK.AC.12} ____ by sacrificing too much to affairs.
{SK.AC.13} ____ Of miracles that make this project fly
{SK.AC.14} ____ the one that installed Kinney ranks quite high.-- Proofreader77 (talk) 06:54, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The incoming arbitrations should identify to the WMF (not you) before accessing any of the lists, as they contain the private information obtained from the tools which are governed by the WMF privacy policy.
- I trust that the mailing list admins will wait until meta:Id is done. John Vandenberg (chat) 07:15, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
A Question For Teh Jimbo
Given the high attrition rate for Arbs, should an interim vacancy or two arise, would you give priority to this election's top runners up?--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) (talk) 12:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- If it were to happen quite soon, I might. But I'm far more inclined to call a special election half-way through the year for any necessary "top-up" seats. However, whatever I might do in such a case, it would only be with the guidance and advice of the sitting ArbCom.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:22, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Jimbo, I'm not sure a lot of people are entirely comfortable with the in-house references. Advising the voters that you've asked the sitting arbs for their opinions on the candidates the community gave the thumbs-up to seems like it's giving the arbs a right of veto; there's a clear conflict of interest for them in travelling down that road. The arbs themselves got just one vote in the election, like the rest of us. They are explicitly at arm's distance from the electoral process, which has to be run by the community as a matter of policy—even to the point where I encountered reluctance to provide technical advice to the coordinators out of respect for that arm's distance notion. It doesn't make sense to me that they might trump the electorate they are a part of. Then to read, "unless there is a strong desire by existing ArbCom members ... However, whatever I might do in such a case, it would only be with the guidance and advice of the sitting ArbCom." I'd like to think that the community will have some say, too, in advising on by-elections or policy matters as they evolve.
- I'm sorry to be the annoying mosquito, and I want you to know that I really support what you've done with WP. A lot. But that doesn't stop me wanting to see an adjustment WRT ArbCom, which in the larger scheme should not figure strongly on your radar; that much I've picked up from statements you've made here and in speeches over the past few years. Tony (talk) 16:29, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- I believe you've misunderstood me. In general, the ArbCom has traditionally felt comfortable operating with less than a full complement of members, and I assume that a loss of one or two wouldn't hamper them much. My point is that I would not appoint anyone to fill any vacant seats without ArbCom feeling that it is needed. The idea of ArbCom "vetoing" candidates is an interesting one, but not one that I find particularly worrisome in any way. Wikipedia is not a democracy. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:02, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- (Meta-aside: Wikipedia/Democracy/SecurePoll) Smelled vaguely like democracy. :-) Pondering: Will there be a community-wide postmortem discussion about this election's process? (Ignore with impunity, but I did donate a hundred bucks yesterday. Note to obsevers: See "Power 101." :-) Proofreader77 (talk) 21:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- There is a postmortem at the moment on the /Feedback page.
- Closer to the time of the next election, I (or someone else) will start another RFC to allow us to either revert back to the old election method, or fine tune the SecurePoll system. John Vandenberg (chat) 23:05, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'll be interested to follow that discussion. I was happy with this election process, much to my surprise. But I think fine-tuning is always a good idea. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:27, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Two replies for the price of one. :-) Many thanks, John and Jimbo. This is the first Arbcom election I've voted in, and I do smile that it is the first by secret ballot. Note: I voted in the last WP:Stewards election, and that was my first time voting for candidates in Wikipedia. It takes awhile to know enough to think about that. lol I'm just barely there. Again, my thanks, and happy holidays to all. Proofreader77 (talk) 23:37, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'll be interested to follow that discussion. I was happy with this election process, much to my surprise. But I think fine-tuning is always a good idea. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:27, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- (Meta-aside: Wikipedia/Democracy/SecurePoll) Smelled vaguely like democracy. :-) Pondering: Will there be a community-wide postmortem discussion about this election's process? (Ignore with impunity, but I did donate a hundred bucks yesterday. Note to obsevers: See "Power 101." :-) Proofreader77 (talk) 21:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- I think the AC veto is only for emergencies where the AC—and probably only the AC—know that election would bring the project into disrepute. For example, someone known to stalk other editors, but only the ArbCom (and people who have been stalked) would know. I recall an incident last year when the ArbCom received evidence of a candidate being a serial harasser near the end of November, but as the person was running, the AC couldn't/wouldn't take action on him then, because they needed to run a fair election. I reckon those would be the only cases where the AC would be allowed to veto. Sceptre (talk) 18:53, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think the ArbCom ever has the power to veto an ArbCom member. I do, and I would only do so with the advice and consent of the sitting ArbCom, and then only under the most unusual of circumstances (such that I can't quite even think what they might be). One thing that I would stand very strong against is any sort of "political" block on ArbCom membership (whether for reasons of internal or external politics). Part of my role here is as a check/balance against ArbCom itself - this has never been necessary but it is in theory possible that a rogue ArbCom could generate significant outrage in the community, leading to (for example) a poll for their removal en masse, in which case I would listen to that poll carefully. Checks and balances are a good thing, as they ensure that a system can be flexible and robust, that experimentation can happen without fear of things going completely off the rails.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:27, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- That's odd. Shouldn't it have been disclosed at the time? It's before my time, as I am new here, so I don't know the details. MajorStovall (talk) 20:54, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The harassment was an open secret; everyone knew he was doing it, but no-one was doing anything about it. The ArbCom didn't receive the evidence until he had an announced his candidacy. Sceptre (talk) 21:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Now I'm intrigued. I think I may do some detective work to find out what went on! Thanks, MajorStovall (talk) 22:12, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- If you figure it out, please email me privately to let me know because I'm curious too. I don't see any reason for drama here in terms of revealing an "open secret" (whatever that means! :-) ) here, but I'm curious.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- Now I'm intrigued. I think I may do some detective work to find out what went on! Thanks, MajorStovall (talk) 22:12, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- The harassment was an open secret; everyone knew he was doing it, but no-one was doing anything about it. The ArbCom didn't receive the evidence until he had an announced his candidacy. Sceptre (talk) 21:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
- I believe you've misunderstood me. In general, the ArbCom has traditionally felt comfortable operating with less than a full complement of members, and I assume that a loss of one or two wouldn't hamper them much. My point is that I would not appoint anyone to fill any vacant seats without ArbCom feeling that it is needed. The idea of ArbCom "vetoing" candidates is an interesting one, but not one that I find particularly worrisome in any way. Wikipedia is not a democracy. :)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:02, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Merry Christmas
Just wanted to wish you a happy holiday season. Hope you enjoy yourself! Kind regards, --Coffee // have a cup // ark // 22:49, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Merry Christmas!
The Thing Merry Christmas 02:24, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Disturbing Behaviors.
I'm here to ask for a little clarification on your stance of Administrative powers. Is there any policy that explicitly allows a single admin to decide at whim to Topic Ban someone? I've brought this up to administrators and they have told me it is implicitly allowed. I find this to be in contravention of the purpose of wikipedia. We are here for collaborative environment and I hardly see how it can be collaborative when a single person can say you can't edit within one particular articlespace. While not commenting on the rightness of arbcom (whom I personally see striking resemblances to other "ruling or political groups" found time after time throughout history. Take your pick there are so many....)Can you define your position on this issue? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 03:24, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- I do not think it is appropriate for a single admin to topic ban someone in the usual cases. However, I should add, there are many special circumstances. Perhaps you can point me to a particular discussion where an admin is claiming the right to topic ban someone?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:57, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you for your prompt response. One example is [[1]] and also here [[2]]. The full discussion where this started is found here [[3]], this was my first knowledge of David Tombes and I didn't see anyone trying to mediate with him discuss anything. I point this out there too...Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- In short, Jehochman's admin decisions regarding David Tombe and Ottava Rima; both of which have been upheld by Arbcom. Over to you Jimmy. ;-)
- John Vandenberg (chat) 06:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Those are the examples, yes. I am not pointing them out alone though. These topic bans were issued by one admin and then the course of IMHO it became a game on how to catch them. Just because Arbcom later ratified the decision doesn't make the procedure proper. how much aggravation was brought on the committee itself by improper procedure before they reviewed it? Kinda taints the water when someone comes in and says I topic banned them and they aren't listening, let's sanction them further. Assuming Arbcom is fair how can a well built second floor stand up if it's built on a rotted floor? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 13:59, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Well, let's talk about the principles that would make for a solid floor? One principle is that admins can unilaterally (subject to later review by other admins and - if necessary - the ArbCom) block users for misbehavior. I think it a fairly clear and reasonable principle that "If an admin could issue a block for a period of time for a behavior, the admin can equally well let the user know that in lieu of blocking (which prevents editing anywhere), there will be an editing restriction for that period of time on certain topics." The difficulty of definition only arises in the event that an admin issues a topic ban in circumstances that wouldn't warrant a block. If the offense is not a blockable offense, then is it a topic-bannable offense? My initial inclination - as always - would be to say "mostly no, but individual circumstances have to be considered."--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:23, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Oy Jimbo! Even for those of us you are neutrally indifferent towards you, this statement is a masterpiece of mealy-mouthed doublespeak - "Well, I don't support it except when I do.". Ayn Rand must be spinning in her grave! Crafty (talk) 15:31, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but that's just a very rude comment that fails to take into account the specifics of what I wrote. I did not say "I don't support it except when I do" and I advance the state of the discussion by clearly delineating a case where I do support it (when the offense is a blockable offense) and I invite further discussion - from those who think that attacking me personally is less important than working together to achieve deeper understanding and better decisionmaking. If you just want to insult me, please take it elsewhere, thanks.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:45, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- A solid floor is consensus. My own opinion is that Admin do have the authority to block if the offenses are egregious enough, But a topic ban should always be left to consensus. The problem with this particular incident is that I've witnessed no attempts to garner support, just a unilateral action. I brought these up to the administrator in question and my block log was thrown in my face and it was claimed that I only wanted to cause drama. This is a serious problem here, you have administators that are encouraging, indeed campaigning on every possible technicalities [[4]] to get rid of editors with differing viewpoints. Currently David Toomb can't even appeal to Arbcom because it's a violation of his sanctions. My main understanding of their speed of light arguement was that they held with the Orwellian Speed of Light and the others Einsteins. Wikipedia is supposed to be NPOV if all the info can be sourced. A very fitting example of a similar situation is that of the Catholic Church when dealing with things like Protestantism, the Albigensian Crusade, or even Galileo. In this case (agf) both parties are proceeding in their view how the 'pedia or world would be benefited more. The methods used were less then favorable. I was recently blocked for being uncivil. I Was attacking Arbcoms decisions when describing their behaviors and I used foul language when I did so. I likened their behaviors to Nazis, this is a accurate description of behaviors but the manner in which I did it was wrong, I'm not suggesting that Arbcom is mass murderers or the like but the behaviors have the same underlying problem, if you don't agree with the viewpoint you silence it altogether. During my block while trying to describe the situation like I did above, my block was extended because a Administrator thought I hadn't learned my lesson enough[[5]]. Per the policy, if I am describing behaviors and not talking about personal characteristics I am 100% allowed to use historic examples, however the action taken was I disagreed and although I had used more appropriate language and context I was wrong to do so and should be silenced. My main point here is that it isn't hard to find an Admin that will block or topic ban at the drop of a dime (not saying all will) and this is especially why topic bans should be left to consensus. I think I've stated my case on the matter, I want to thank you for taking the time in responding to this. I would like to thank you for founding this website, I never thought I would find pleasure volunteering until I started editing Wikipedia and I fully laud the effort by all here to maintain free knowledge. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:28, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Oy Jimbo! Even for those of us you are neutrally indifferent towards you, this statement is a masterpiece of mealy-mouthed doublespeak - "Well, I don't support it except when I do.". Ayn Rand must be spinning in her grave! Crafty (talk) 15:31, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Well, let's talk about the principles that would make for a solid floor? One principle is that admins can unilaterally (subject to later review by other admins and - if necessary - the ArbCom) block users for misbehavior. I think it a fairly clear and reasonable principle that "If an admin could issue a block for a period of time for a behavior, the admin can equally well let the user know that in lieu of blocking (which prevents editing anywhere), there will be an editing restriction for that period of time on certain topics." The difficulty of definition only arises in the event that an admin issues a topic ban in circumstances that wouldn't warrant a block. If the offense is not a blockable offense, then is it a topic-bannable offense? My initial inclination - as always - would be to say "mostly no, but individual circumstances have to be considered."--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:23, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Those are the examples, yes. I am not pointing them out alone though. These topic bans were issued by one admin and then the course of IMHO it became a game on how to catch them. Just because Arbcom later ratified the decision doesn't make the procedure proper. how much aggravation was brought on the committee itself by improper procedure before they reviewed it? Kinda taints the water when someone comes in and says I topic banned them and they aren't listening, let's sanction them further. Assuming Arbcom is fair how can a well built second floor stand up if it's built on a rotted floor? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 13:59, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you for your prompt response. One example is [[1]] and also here [[2]]. The full discussion where this started is found here [[3]], this was my first knowledge of David Tombes and I didn't see anyone trying to mediate with him discuss anything. I point this out there too...Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- (Point of personal privilege) My comment-processing text buffer is overflowing, :-) would the honorable Hell In A Bucket consider using interspersed <p> codes to make Christmas comprehension easier? (smiling but not joking) Merry Christmas. Proofreader77 (talk) 22:10, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
- Learning moment. What is a "interspersed code"? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 22:18, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Merry Christmas!
– ĈĠ, Super Sounders Fan (help line|§|sign here) 04:41, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Farsi Banning Policy
Dear Mr.Wales, first of all I would like to say "Merry Christmass"! The problem which forced me to come here, was that in Fa wiki, there is no banning revision, and admins easily ban users without clear explanation. Ultranationalist groups are editing there freely without any obstacle, but democrat and pro human right users, are under great pressure. They are being banned one after another. No admin would answer why he has banned a user. They speak about it, in their mailing list and ban whoever they want in a discriminative manner. Special notice should be paid to fa wiki. Such an enviroment has made it really inactive. What should we do in your opinion? sicaspi 15:35, 25 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sicaspi (talk • contribs)