Geometry guy (talk | contribs) →Philcha ill, have to bale out of GA reviews: Comment on the health benefits of GA |
Malleus Fatuorum (talk | contribs) →Philcha ill, have to bale out of GA reviews: my view is very similar |
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: Dear Philcha, I'm sorry that you are unwell, and I wish you a speedy recovery. There's no need for you to apologize! I will see what can be done with respect to those reviews. ''[[User talk:Geometry guy|Geometry guy]]'' 11:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC) |
: Dear Philcha, I'm sorry that you are unwell, and I wish you a speedy recovery. There's no need for you to apologize! I will see what can be done with respect to those reviews. ''[[User talk:Geometry guy|Geometry guy]]'' 11:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC) |
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:: Dear Philcha. I have read through these reviews. Your approach is very detailed and intense, which may not be good for your health. One of the great benefits of GA is that no single editor is responsible for the outcome: it is a collective effort by all of us to improve the encyclopedia. "Mistakes" (e.g. reviews that miss a point) are not a problem because they can easily be fixed. Reviewers do not need to be the ultimate arbiter of every nomination, they just need to do a reasonable job to check whether the article is ''readable, verifiable, broad, stable, neutral and free''. Already then the article is probably better than 98% of the encyclopedia. If a review misses an issue, the article can be delisted, renominated, brought to GAR and so on. This is not a problem and there is a splendid community willing to help. ''[[User talk:Geometry guy|Geometry guy]]'' 23:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC) |
:: Dear Philcha. I have read through these reviews. Your approach is very detailed and intense, which may not be good for your health. One of the great benefits of GA is that no single editor is responsible for the outcome: it is a collective effort by all of us to improve the encyclopedia. "Mistakes" (e.g. reviews that miss a point) are not a problem because they can easily be fixed. Reviewers do not need to be the ultimate arbiter of every nomination, they just need to do a reasonable job to check whether the article is ''readable, verifiable, broad, stable, neutral and free''. Already then the article is probably better than 98% of the encyclopedia. If a review misses an issue, the article can be delisted, renominated, brought to GAR and so on. This is not a problem and there is a splendid community willing to help. ''[[User talk:Geometry guy|Geometry guy]]'' 23:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC) |
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:::I've thought much the same thing. GAN ought not to be the equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition, that's what FAC's for. You're trying to do too much Philcha, rest and get better. --[[User:Malleus Fatuorum|Malleus]] [[User_talk:Malleus_Fatuorum|Fatuorum]] 00:05, 3 December 2009 (UTC) |
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*Geometry guy, I signed up to review [[Dragon's Egg]] and then felt I wasn't up to it and removed my name. I fear I may have accidently removed [[Dragon's Egg]] from GAN, as it is no longer there. What to do? (Also, I have asked [[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] to help with it, since he is familiar with the book.) —[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 13:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC) |
*Geometry guy, I signed up to review [[Dragon's Egg]] and then felt I wasn't up to it and removed my name. I fear I may have accidently removed [[Dragon's Egg]] from GAN, as it is no longer there. What to do? (Also, I have asked [[User:Wehwalt|Wehwalt]] to help with it, since he is familiar with the book.) —[[User:Mattisse|<font color="navy">'''mattisse'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Mattisse|Talk]]) 13:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:05, 3 December 2009
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Block
- Note that the first comments in this discussion were originally posted at User talk:SilkTork.
Further to discussion on Matttise's talk page, I have blocked her for 12 hours. I will comment there shortly, but this is not my area of expertise and request that you review this block and revise the duration as you consider appropriate. Thanks. Geometry guy 22:37, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- Given the time zones involved, it may be helpful to extend the block, with consideration for the best interests of the encyclopedia. Apologies for landing this issue on your doorstep. Geometry guy 23:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
- I support the block, and have said so on Mattisse's talkpage. Mattisse, however, must learn self-discipline, or some other solution will need to be found. So I suggest that we give Mattisse firm guidance on what she can and cannot do, and if when the block expires she ignores the guidance, we block her again - this time for a longer period. That is what she drew up in the Plan, and we need to follow that to see if it works. If not, then Mattisse may find herself facing more extreme sanctions from ArbCom. SilkTork *YES! 00:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with that and fully support such a plan. Geometry guy 00:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- I have extended the block by 24 hours because Mattisse had made a negative remark about Fainites and was refusing to strike it. SilkTork *YES! 00:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree again with your action. Bringing up old news does not help to improve the encyclopedia, and Mattisse should not do this in her comments. Geometry guy 01:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- If she strikes the comments concerned on her talk page and apologizes for assuming bad faith, then a few hours reduction of the block might be reasonable. Geometry guy 01:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree again with your action. Bringing up old news does not help to improve the encyclopedia, and Mattisse should not do this in her comments. Geometry guy 01:03, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- I have extended the block by 24 hours because Mattisse had made a negative remark about Fainites and was refusing to strike it. SilkTork *YES! 00:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with that and fully support such a plan. Geometry guy 00:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- I support the block, and have said so on Mattisse's talkpage. Mattisse, however, must learn self-discipline, or some other solution will need to be found. So I suggest that we give Mattisse firm guidance on what she can and cannot do, and if when the block expires she ignores the guidance, we block her again - this time for a longer period. That is what she drew up in the Plan, and we need to follow that to see if it works. If not, then Mattisse may find herself facing more extreme sanctions from ArbCom. SilkTork *YES! 00:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sad this had to be done, but I think you were right. Mattisse is becoming her own worst enemy. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:27, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for commenting here. I am also sad about it. I have extended the block, because I do not believe it should simply expire without discussion. Geometry guy 23:59, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
- It's really painful to see her advisers put in this position, but since some are in private contact with her, I have to assume they know best how to proceed. I hope someone has explained to her that, in this context, GAN=GAR=same thing=evaluation of GA status. And that the reason I had to go on at length is because my misread of your diff caused a huge cockup in the Request for clarification, to which others had already reacted by the time I realized. I'm not sure if it was my cockup, or NYB's suggestion that she refrain from GA reviews for a while, but I suspect that the reason Fainites responded on that is when the trouble began after NYB's suggestion. I hope she can see NYB's feedback as only one possibility to avoid reopening the case. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:50, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I think Mattisse wanted to distinguish between cases where she has been a GAN reviewer and other situations. However, I agree that it is a level of detail not worth arguing over. More to-and-fro is not needed here. It may be considered ironic that the clarification page is now being shared with speed of light: escalation can happen when editors move at too high a velocity. De-escalation happens when editors slow down, pause, or reflect. Regarding NYB's suggestion, I commented a day or two ago at on his talk page. In particular, I refered to the tension that there is between no ownership of articles and the credit economy of Wikipedia. I think there could be a discussion worth having on this at some point, although this may not be the time. Geometry guy 08:19, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- My apologies if I made things less clear when intended the opposite. I was responding to comments about GANs/GARs in relation to Mattisses proposals, in an effort to define the areas in which there have been problems. Straightforward initial GANs do not seem to be a problem area.Fainites barleyscribs 13:48, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Apologies pretty much always help, so thanks for that. I would also encourage care in checking edit histories, as small misunderstandings can lead to misperceptions and even unnecessary conflict. I also understand that this is easier to say than do. Geometry guy 22:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well I do generally check edit histories - just on this particular bit I hadn't realised there was an edit history to check! Be that as it may - it doesn't alter my basic point which is that Mattisse has not had difficulties with GANs as such - only when she joins in other GANs or GARs, or initiates GARs.Fainites barleyscribs 22:34, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Apologies pretty much always help, so thanks for that. I would also encourage care in checking edit histories, as small misunderstandings can lead to misperceptions and even unnecessary conflict. I also understand that this is easier to say than do. Geometry guy 22:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- My apologies if I made things less clear when intended the opposite. I was responding to comments about GANs/GARs in relation to Mattisses proposals, in an effort to define the areas in which there have been problems. Straightforward initial GANs do not seem to be a problem area.Fainites barleyscribs 13:48, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- The more I think about this, the less I understand why NYB suggested: "At this point, I am considering whether the best answer for all concerned might be to ask Mattisse, if she wishes to remain active as an editor, to edit primarily in mainspace and to leave process work (FAR, GA, etc.) and wikispace to others for a time." I'm not sure where he's going with that. Has anyone in that whole convoluted page asked for this as a remedy? I haven't. I've asked for the targeting and behaviors-- not the reviewing-- to stop, so I'm really confused about why he has proposed this. The idea that she can't review at GA seems to be what set off the problems the other day. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I think he suggested this because some reviews have been flashpoints. I see nothing wrong with proposing remedies to test the waters. If a proposal needs to be dropped, substantially revised, or merely tweaked, then that can happen. All proposals need the consensus of all acting arbitrators. Let us trust them to evaluate the evidence carefully, and reach conclusions that will help everyone work together better. Geometry guy 22:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I have not reviewed a GAN since the before that last arbitration against me. I have entered a few low-level comments, but have not given an indepth review of a FAC since the last arbitration against me. I no longer nominate, help to fix up. or nominate FARs. This should satisfy any editor who dislikes my activites in these areas. If ArbCom wants to instil an ban on FAC and FAR, that would be fine with me. I think there is no evidence to do so for GAN, since I have never had a problem with my GAN reviews. I will agree to be banned from GAR. I am a professional psychologist, and I understand professionals from a disciple should not comment on articles within their disciple on Wikipeida and are not welcome to do so. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 22:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I am a mathematical professional and my expertise is frequently welcomed here, because I believe that every edit I make should be judged on its own merits, not on any credentials. Your statement on psychologists is the kind of pointy statement you need to learn not to make. Geometry guy 22:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- You proposed recently that I be barred from psychology articles, implying that the reason was that I was a professiona. I am merely regurgitating what you said. Also, I think mathematics is not the same, as everyone with a Masters or less in psychology (many with no formal training but just pop pysch article readers) considers themselves an expert. I don't think that is true of mathematics.
- However, I am willing to be banned from reviewing GAN, since the fact I haven't reviewed any since the last arbitration has not changed any views on the matter of my ability to review). I am willing not to participate in reviews of anything, not to copyedit articles that are striving for a review of anything, in any of the various review formats. —mattisse (Talk) 23:12, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Mattisse, no, you are not repeating what I said. You are taking a proposal, elevating it to a principle, and then generalizing it to apply to all psychology professionals, not just your own situation. Posts like these escalate conflict and you need to learn to stop making them. I strongly encourage you, as other advisors have done, to walk away from the computer and spend some time reflecting on whether you want to contribute further to this encyclopedia in the long run and under what terms. Geometry guy 23:39, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I am a mathematical professional and my expertise is frequently welcomed here, because I believe that every edit I make should be judged on its own merits, not on any credentials. Your statement on psychologists is the kind of pointy statement you need to learn not to make. Geometry guy 22:59, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I have not reviewed a GAN since the before that last arbitration against me. I have entered a few low-level comments, but have not given an indepth review of a FAC since the last arbitration against me. I no longer nominate, help to fix up. or nominate FARs. This should satisfy any editor who dislikes my activites in these areas. If ArbCom wants to instil an ban on FAC and FAR, that would be fine with me. I think there is no evidence to do so for GAN, since I have never had a problem with my GAN reviews. I will agree to be banned from GAR. I am a professional psychologist, and I understand professionals from a disciple should not comment on articles within their disciple on Wikipeida and are not welcome to do so. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 22:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I think he suggested this because some reviews have been flashpoints. I see nothing wrong with proposing remedies to test the waters. If a proposal needs to be dropped, substantially revised, or merely tweaked, then that can happen. All proposals need the consensus of all acting arbitrators. Let us trust them to evaluate the evidence carefully, and reach conclusions that will help everyone work together better. Geometry guy 22:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I think Mattisse wanted to distinguish between cases where she has been a GAN reviewer and other situations. However, I agree that it is a level of detail not worth arguing over. More to-and-fro is not needed here. It may be considered ironic that the clarification page is now being shared with speed of light: escalation can happen when editors move at too high a velocity. De-escalation happens when editors slow down, pause, or reflect. Regarding NYB's suggestion, I commented a day or two ago at on his talk page. In particular, I refered to the tension that there is between no ownership of articles and the credit economy of Wikipedia. I think there could be a discussion worth having on this at some point, although this may not be the time. Geometry guy 08:19, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- It's really painful to see her advisers put in this position, but since some are in private contact with her, I have to assume they know best how to proceed. I hope someone has explained to her that, in this context, GAN=GAR=same thing=evaluation of GA status. And that the reason I had to go on at length is because my misread of your diff caused a huge cockup in the Request for clarification, to which others had already reacted by the time I realized. I'm not sure if it was my cockup, or NYB's suggestion that she refrain from GA reviews for a while, but I suspect that the reason Fainites responded on that is when the trouble began after NYB's suggestion. I hope she can see NYB's feedback as only one possibility to avoid reopening the case. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:50, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for commenting here. I am also sad about it. I have extended the block, because I do not believe it should simply expire without discussion. Geometry guy 23:59, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
A concern...
Check out User talk:Hamiltonstone#Your GA nomination of Bronwyn Bancroft. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- It has always been the case that different reviewers interpret the GA criteria differently, and that some are more demanding than others, or have a better understanding of the criteria than others. Some of the editors I most admire can ask too much in their reviews, in my view (my ballpark for the GA level agrees pretty closely with Malleus's, and the consensus at GAR is usually, but not always, around the same level). This is why GA status is so mutable, and GAR is available to resolve disagreement.
- One thing that is clearly inappropriate is placing review comments on user talk pages: review comments are about whether the article meets the criteria, not about the nominator (or indeed the reviewer), and such discussions need to take place on review pages which can be easily linked for future reference. I haven't reviewed the history in detail (I'd welcome a summary before investigating it, if that is necessary) and so have no view on "blame" (which may be unhelpful anyway) or solutions. However, it seems that a fresh review is underway on a review page, and GAR is still available if this course of action is contested.
- I'd like to add one further personal comment to Ealdgyth. You posted an anti-flame barnstar here not so long ago and I appreciated it especially because I consider you an editor motivated by content above all else. While I understand that the title of this section (and similar comments posted to other users) concisely describes your concerns, I would encourage the use of less emotive headings. Geometry guy 22:02, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, Gguy, I guess I did let the title get a bit out of hand. Refractored/changed. However, I do remain concerned at some things I see at GAN, and wonder what might be the best course for addressing these without adding too much "overhead" to the GA process. The "creeping" standards are a concern for me and many others, and this is something that does need to be addressed. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:05, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- The simple answer is: we need more editors contributing regularly to WP:GAR and more editors initiating GAR's when they see a mismatch between an article or review and the GA criteria. Please do not be afraid to initiate GARs. They can happen at any time: if you are confident you can resolve the issue impartially as an individual reviewer, then an individual GAR is like a fresh GAN review. However, please, if you have any hesitation, open a community GAR. They are generally very cooperative, and sometimes result in remarkable fixes or mutual understanding and agreement between editors. There are some experienced editors who contribute regularly. The only issue at GAR is whether the article currently meets (or can easily be fixed to meet) the GA criteria: past history is irrelevant. Disputes have not been common recently, and these can usually be managed (e.g. by refactoring off-topic comments to the review talk page, just as delegates do at FAC). Geometry guy 22:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I will try. I had not expected my fall to get so busy .. I've barely had time to keep up with FAC (where, I think, I do incredibly useful work just keeping sourcing up to minimum standards) and with my rather lengthy watchlist. And thank you for the compliment. I do treasure your opinions, and really do admire the way you remain level headed. I'm no Giano or OR, but I do know I tend to sometimes be a bit harsher than should be expected. In this instance, I sat on my concerns for a day to let things cool off (should have done another day to get the heading under control!) Thanks, Gguy Ealdgyth - Talk 22:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- No worries, Ealdgyth, and thank you in turn for your kind words. I know how busy you are and all the excellent work you do. My remarks are a general encouragement to all to nominate GARs and contribute to GAR discussions to improve the reliability and consistency of GA. GAR has been relatively lightly used recently, which is not typical for this time of year, in my experience. I also believe, and this may not be widely agreed, that it is fine for editors to nominate community GARs about which they have a strong opinion, so long as they then step back and let the community decide, providing only factual information to inform the discussion: problems tend to arise (unsurprisingly) when such nominators are determined to win the argument. Geometry guy 22:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I will try. I had not expected my fall to get so busy .. I've barely had time to keep up with FAC (where, I think, I do incredibly useful work just keeping sourcing up to minimum standards) and with my rather lengthy watchlist. And thank you for the compliment. I do treasure your opinions, and really do admire the way you remain level headed. I'm no Giano or OR, but I do know I tend to sometimes be a bit harsher than should be expected. In this instance, I sat on my concerns for a day to let things cool off (should have done another day to get the heading under control!) Thanks, Gguy Ealdgyth - Talk 22:32, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- The simple answer is: we need more editors contributing regularly to WP:GAR and more editors initiating GAR's when they see a mismatch between an article or review and the GA criteria. Please do not be afraid to initiate GARs. They can happen at any time: if you are confident you can resolve the issue impartially as an individual reviewer, then an individual GAR is like a fresh GAN review. However, please, if you have any hesitation, open a community GAR. They are generally very cooperative, and sometimes result in remarkable fixes or mutual understanding and agreement between editors. There are some experienced editors who contribute regularly. The only issue at GAR is whether the article currently meets (or can easily be fixed to meet) the GA criteria: past history is irrelevant. Disputes have not been common recently, and these can usually be managed (e.g. by refactoring off-topic comments to the review talk page, just as delegates do at FAC). Geometry guy 22:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, Gguy, I guess I did let the title get a bit out of hand. Refractored/changed. However, I do remain concerned at some things I see at GAN, and wonder what might be the best course for addressing these without adding too much "overhead" to the GA process. The "creeping" standards are a concern for me and many others, and this is something that does need to be addressed. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:05, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
Mattisse
Hi G guy I have given Mattisse a warning not to post any form of comment on another Wikipedia editor without first getting advice to make such a comment. I will let the other mentors/advisors know of this. I feel we need to stand firm on this as there seems now to be a general agreement that Mattisse's work is valuable to Wikipedia, but it is her personal comments on other editors that is causing friction. If we can assist Mattisse to get out of the habit of making ill-advised personal comments by showing her that if she ceases from making such comments her time on Wikipedia becomes more pleasant, then that would be a good value use of our time.
Mattisse doesn't handle stress situations very well, and tends to react by making more and more ill-advised comments both against other editors and on herself. Preventing Mattisse from making such comments is an essential part of the Plan that Mattisse herself drew up, and which was approved by ArbCom. It is also apparent that Mattisse responds better to strong direction than gentle explanations - when Mattisse is stressed she has little patience for long and subtle explanations, and does not pick up on hints. Instructions to Mattisse need to be clear, direct, short and strong.
What concerns me is that even at this point in her Wikipedia involvement she still doesn't quite understand how to behave, and feels that muttering and moaning is acceptable despite many warnings. She appears to take her cue from the bad examples of others, and feels justified in engaging in poor quality behaviour while others, especially respected others, "get away with it" as she would put it. I am firmly of the opinion that Mattisse is as much sinned against as sinning, and that there is some basis for her frustrations. However, I feel that there is little we or anyone else can do, if she is unable to control herself.
We can hope to modify her behaviour by firm guidance supported by sanctions when she errs - but unless she can take responsibility for herself, she will continue to get into conflict. We cannot even begin to seriously deal with any attacks on Mattisse as long as Mattisse herself is being provocative. Somebody has to stop riding the see-saw, and the onus is on Mattisse to stop first.
The question is: it is possible for Mattisse to control herself in the long term? SilkTork *YES! 09:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I support SilkTork's a warning to Mattisse not to post any form of comment on another Wikipedia editor without first getting advice. Of course that is an necessary but not insufficient condition - edits and comments on content can also be disruptive, and there have been concerns that Mattisse has indulged in feuding and harassment; but I see no simple way to identify these, and we may have to deal with any such cases as they arise, at least until we built up some "case law".
- I also agree that "Instructions to Mattisse need to be clear, direct, short and strong."
- And I agree with "Mattisse is as much sinned against as sinning". Bad behaviour by others' at Mattisse's expense will be undermnine her efforts to improve her own behaviour. I therefore suggest:
- Complaints raised at Mattisse's mentoring pages must be civil and objective. If necessary we should refuse to progress a complaint until all hostile language in it has been removed / replaced.
- We should be prepared to intervene if others use the ArbCom verdict as a pretext for turning Mattisse into a target. In addition clealry hostile language, that should also include gaming the verdict at the original ArbCom case, the current Clarification and any others - for example if Mattise is forbidden to interact with editor X, and X use this to cut Mattise out of discussions in which she was invlved before X arrived.
- Finally, we need a plan for positive behaviours that will overwrite the negative ones - otherwise the negative ones will return in time. --Philcha (talk) 10:31, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- My comment regarding FACs was just copying [1] and I had no idea it was an offense. I wanted to point out that out of 172 reviews, I had difficulty with perhaps four reviews, leaving 168 or so positive contributions. So much emphasis has been put on those few problematic reviews. I am sorry for making the post. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 13:23, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I guess this is reasonable considering the circumstances. To be honest, I think this arbcom process is overly lengthy and it is hard to imagine even the most polite of editors coming out of this without being uncivil on one occasion or another. To Mattisse's credit, she has always apologized, refactored, and moved away from the brink. On the downside, she does have the tendency to respond at length to everything and that increases the probability that something negative will get said, directly or indirectly. This restriction should help. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 13:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I slightly regret that it seems to rule out the possibility of Mattisse making a clear compliment to another person, on those occasions when she might be interested in doing so. And I do hope that therre will at least be the potential to reexamine this later. But, at the moment, it seems reasonable to me. John Carter (talk) 13:57, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I guess this is reasonable considering the circumstances. To be honest, I think this arbcom process is overly lengthy and it is hard to imagine even the most polite of editors coming out of this without being uncivil on one occasion or another. To Mattisse's credit, she has always apologized, refactored, and moved away from the brink. On the downside, she does have the tendency to respond at length to everything and that increases the probability that something negative will get said, directly or indirectly. This restriction should help. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 13:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I really do insist that Mattisse gets out of my face. What was the point of comparing the number of FACs I've contributed to to the number she's contributed to (whatever "contributed to" means)? What was that comparison meant to achieve? I have to say as well that I find the "as much sinned against as sinning" comment above to be absolutely hilarious, and a very good example of why Mattisse's mentoring hasn't and won't work. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I apologize deeply to you Malleus. The point was not to diminish you in any way, but rather to show that I have contributed a large number of positive interactions to FAC compared to a very small number of problematic ones. I only mentioned you because I found that link on your talk page[2] and used it for reference only. It was bad judgment on my part to use your name. My motives was not to harm you. It is only because I have a high regard for you article contributions that I used your name. Regards, —mattisse (Talk) 14:57, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- No harm done Mattisse, and I accept your apology. I've got no idea what that comparison posted on my talk page was meant to demonstrate, except the obvious point that many others have done more work at FAC than I have. Many others have done more work everywhere than I have though, so you shouldn't be comparing yourself to me anyway. --Malleus Fatuorum 15:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- That the mentors have recently been more proactive is why I was willing to endorse Carcharoth's latest motions in lieu of stronger sanctions. On the other hand, comments like "as much sinned against as sinning" lead to concern that we may go back to the days of "shooting the messenger"; I hope that doesn't happen. If the motions get additional support from other arbs, at some point, we will need to have a hypothetical discussion of how to handle any potential issues at FAC; having that discussion now may just inflame, but I remain concerned that I would never file a report during an ongoing FAC (as that could prejudice the outcome of the FAC), nor would I want to see a committee managing a FAC. Could you all possibly discuss among yourselves how such an eventuality would be handled, even if it now appears unlikely ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:27, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, I wish several people would stop repeating the phrase "shooting the messenger". No-one's in danger of grievous bodily harm or even virtual WP harm. Use of hostile or incivil phrasing in complaints about Mattisse (or anyone else) making it difficult to work out what the actual problem was (especially if accompanied by verbosity or unclarity) and more difficult to work out a suitable remedy. I hope this point does not need further explanation. --Philcha (talk) 18:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- And "as much sinned against as sinning" is equally harmful. If you all will stay on track this time, things will surely go better. An awareness of when "hostile or incivil phrasing" is impacting outcomes on all sides would be helpful. I hope this point does not need further clarification. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, both metaphorical turns of phrase are inappropriate here. While in a casual context they can translate into more reasonable statements, such as "this is not the fault of one person alone" and "don't confuse bad news with the person delivering it", more care with words is needed by text communication due to the ease with which misunderstandings arise. Both phrases apportion blame, which is inappropriate; they may even suggest intention, which assumes bad faith about the "sinners" and the "shooters", while elevating to a fact a perception that the "messenger" is uninvolved, or suggesting that the "sinned against" should not be held accountable for their actions.
- SilkTork's post and Philcha's response that began this thread make it utterly plain that Mattisse will be held to account for her actions.
- Perhaps a cultural reference will lighten my reply: none of the editors here have the insecurities and prejudices of Basil Fawlty, who might have said "Don't mention the metaphor. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it". Geometry guy 23:14, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- And "as much sinned against as sinning" is equally harmful. If you all will stay on track this time, things will surely go better. An awareness of when "hostile or incivil phrasing" is impacting outcomes on all sides would be helpful. I hope this point does not need further clarification. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, I wish several people would stop repeating the phrase "shooting the messenger". No-one's in danger of grievous bodily harm or even virtual WP harm. Use of hostile or incivil phrasing in complaints about Mattisse (or anyone else) making it difficult to work out what the actual problem was (especially if accompanied by verbosity or unclarity) and more difficult to work out a suitable remedy. I hope this point does not need further explanation. --Philcha (talk) 18:08, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm drawing a line, not to forbid further discussion of the dangers of metaphor onwiki (above the line), but to move on to more substantive issues.
- I'm heartened to see a consensus among advisors for "clear, direct, short and strong" guidance of Mattisse: stated directly by SilkTork and Philcha, implicitly endorsed by John Carter and RegentsPark, and now explicitly by me.
- Mattisse's post on Carcharoth's talk page is the kind of thing that has been ignored in the past. I think if advisors had ignored it in this case, it would have remained a footnote example. However, we didn't, and this led to further discussion above. The balance is rather difficult to achieve. In this case Mattisse apologized to Malleus and also to Carcharoth (although he asked her not to reply on his talk page) and has returned to work on what I believe may be her 100th DYK. I just want to be sure that this kind of intervention is preferable to letting things slide occasionally. I think it is, as Mattisse needs clear boundaries, but am open-minded. If so, then I hope other editors will understand that advisors are highlighting the issue to improve Mattisse's behaviour, not to escalate the situation. If the Request for Clarification asks us to do this, we'd appreciate some slack when we act, and notification when we fail to act.
- What to do if Mattisse contributes to conflict at FAC, when FAC delegates are unable to alert advisors? I don't actually see a COI here, as alerts are intended to be and should be neutral information ("Please look at this diff to see if there is a problem"). If delegates feel unable to raise such alerts, then other editors (such as nominators, who may in fact be more involved) should do so (in a neutral way). How will they know? Unfortunately I see no clear answer other than delegates advising them of Mattisse's situation. I'm not sure if this is more or less neutral than an impartially phrased alert. Any better suggestions would be welcome.
- How to avoid other editors escalating conflict? The main way is to stop Mattisse contributing to any such escalation. However, other small measures may help. I would like to think that anyone trusted by Mattisse can protect any page in her user and user talk space. Such protection may prevent her from escalating conflict against her own best interests, and may also provide her with some security. This includes the monitoring page, and so the views of arbitrators would be helpful here. Any such page protection has the same goal as blocking Mattisse: to prevent escalation of conflict and harm to the encyclopedia. It should never be, or viewed as, suppression of disagreement: further discussion can always happen elsewhere.
- This brings me to a very personal point. My RfA platform included a statement that I did not wish to use the tools for dealing with vandalism and editor conduct. Over the past 2 years, I have stuck to this. Apart from the recent block of Mattisse, I used the block tool to stop a malfunctioning bot recently, but that is about it. If anyone has any concerns about me using the tools to block Mattisse or protect her user space, please let me know.
That's all. Geometry guy 23:14, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
- Re No. 2: If the Request for Clarification asks us to do this, we'd appreciate some slack when we act, and notification when we fail to act. The language on the Request is still vague, but there is some reference to minor events, or unwarranted, or some such language, which is entirely unclear. I would view, for example, the incident on Carcharoth's talk page as "minor", and don't really understand how or when others are supposed to "report" incidents under this vague terminology and implied threat as currently worded on the Request for clarification. Given that wording, I would hesitate to bring the incident on Carcharoth's page to mentor attention.
- Re No. 3: I'm not sure how others might handle it in the eventuality there is an issue at FAC, but I would (hopefully) never report anything during an ongoing FAC. If there were problems on a FAC, and no one else reported it, I would wait 'til the FAC closed.
- Re No. 4: I think you've already got the answer :) In the last incidents, everyone saw action from the mentors, and no one stepped in: it wasn't necessary. HTH, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:24, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, that does help: re #4, I hope that would be the outcome in most cases; re #2, I personally would not expect other editors to notify on minor issues, but if they are highlighted by advisors, this should not make an incident worse if no prior complaint was made; re #3, if matters get seriously out of control during an FAC it is likely that advisors will hear about it one way or another – if not a report post FAC close would be fine. Geometry guy 00:54, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
GA class medicine articles
G guy, when I get the time (ha!), I need to start through Category:GA-Class medicine articles to review for overreliance on primary sources, relative to WP:MEDRS. For reasons that I don't understand, Wikipedia:Good article criteria highlights the Scientific citation guidelines, but not (for example) other widely accepted citation guidelines like MilHist or MEDRS. What is the reasoning for highlighting one set of citation guidelines and not others? Does it even make sense (relative to WIAGA) for me to review the medical articles for compliance with MEDRS? Even without considering MEDRS, there are numerous articles there that shouldn't be GA (see for example Fetal alcohol syndrome); where would I put a list of those? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:30, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for offering to check health and medicine GAs: all input is welcome.
- Concerning your questions, the GA criteria are intended to reflect basic policies, rather than elaborations of these, so that the criteria are easy to understand by as wide a range of editors as possible and are as far as possible a one-stop-shop for reviewers. Incorporating every WikiProject guideline would permit a type of instruction creep that is contrary to the spirit of GA: see e.g. this dispatch for some of my views.
- The scientific citation guidelines are a rare exception, partly for historical reasons going back before my wikitime (the way inline citations were introduced for GAs). However, they are not tied to a particular WikiProject, have been very stable, and clarify a misconception that all information on Wikipedia needs to be cited by a specific reference at the end of the sentence. I would prefer the reference to them to be in a footnote as additional information (and it was for some time).
- None of the above, however, means that WikiProject guidelines are irrelevant to the GA criteria, as the former may reflect consensus interpretations of policies that are part of the latter. Their relevance is a matter for reviewers to decide, and is discussed at WP:GAR when disagreements arise. So to the extent that WP:MEDRS informs the interpretation of WP:V for health and medicine GAs, feel free to use it.
- The older GAs among these articles have not yet been checked as part of GA sweeps: see Wikipedia:GAPQ/SL#Biology_and_medicine. Just over a year ago, I was even optimistic enough to believe that I might find the time and energy to do it myself.
- Perhaps we can collaborate. You will save reviewers' work if you can mark a GA as "okay" at sweeps. On the other hand, if there are problems and you don't have time to reassess an article yourself, use the {{GA request}} mechanism: I (or other reviewers) might thus be encouraged to return to an important task that has been neglected for far too long. Geometry guy 20:55, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sure I won't have time to mark something OK at Sweeps, because that would require a comprehensive review. Maybe (if I find time) I'll set up a User subpage to begin working through these, and then you can follow there. Will see how my time goes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:01, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- Good luck! Even prioritizing the worst offenders is helpful. Geometry guy 21:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sure I won't have time to mark something OK at Sweeps, because that would require a comprehensive review. Maybe (if I find time) I'll set up a User subpage to begin working through these, and then you can follow there. Will see how my time goes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:01, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Started at User:SandyGeorgia/GA class medicine articles ... will chip away at it as I have time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:48, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- Belated thanks for starting this. I'll also contribute when time permits (I may have some this weekend) - help from other editors (which there has been already!) would be appreciated. Geometry guy 21:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- So much to do, so little time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Peer review vs. FAC Signpost Dispatch needed
See Wikipedia talk:Featured content dispatch workshop#Peer review vs. FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Penrose tiling
Was just wondering why you had replaced or removed all the references to Eric Hwang's Penrose Tilings and Quasicrystals in Penrose tiling ? Seems like a good enouh source to me. I have restored one of the references, as a source for the connection between Gummelt's decagonal covering and quasicrystals. If you don't think Hwang is a good source for this then let's just remove that whole paragraph from the article. Gandalf61 (talk) 10:20, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
- Welcome, Gandalf!
- The problem with Hwang's site is that it is a self-published source, with, as far as I can tell, no editorial oversight. See also [3] and [4] for his credentials: he is an "interactive designer" with a BSc in mathematics and computer science, but there's no evidence of relevant publications or external recognition.
- I'm trying to give the article a bit of a polish. So much has been written about Penrose tilings that it should be possible to find everything in reliable sources. The connection between the decagonal covering and quasicrystals may be tricky, but lets try to find something: after all, Hwang must have got his information from somewhere! I'm also looking for a source for the existence and characterization of the two Penrose tilings with (global) 5-fold symmetry. Geometry guy 12:41, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
- "There are two ways to obtain aperiodic tilings with 5-fold symmetry about a single point. They are known as the "star" and "sun" configurations" - Weisstein, Eric W. "Penrose Tiles". MathWorld.. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:59, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks! MathWorld is fine as a source if needed, but it is a tertiary source (and tends to plug Mathematica), so if we can find the secondaries, so much the better. I've been following up some of the references cited there. Miles of Tiles is on Google books, and has a section on Template:Google books quote, but it doesn't seem to be very helpful. Grunbaum and Shephard is in my university library, and I should have time to check it out tomorrow. I also found "Quasicrystals and geometry" by Marjorie Senechal: this could be good for the link with quasicrystals as well as the Template:Google books quote, cut and project, and Template:Google books quote. Geometry guy 18:40, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Vancouver
WikiProject Vancouver | ||
You have been invited to participate in Operation Schadenfreude to restore the article Vancouver back to featured article status. |
- Dear FA Team member, we could use your help if you're available. Mkdwtalk 06:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Philcha ill, have to bale out of GA reviews
I'm very sorry, I am ill - I can read words but cannot write (I often write gibberish), and most of this post is pasted words found in other places. The GA Reviews I started for others will need to be done by others - Talk:Bix Beiderbecke/GA1, Talk:St. Boniface General Hospital (Winnipeg)/GA1 and Talk:Eustrombus gigas/GA1. I am also 99% done with Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, which Mûĸĸâĸûĸâĸû is reviewing, and hope I can simply finish this. Dragon's Egg is waiting for review and I may finish the review if easy. Sorry for baling out. --Philcha (talk) 07:23, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Geometry guy, this is not a joke. I am ill. Please get GA reviewers for Talk:Bix Beiderbecke/GA1, Talk:St. Boniface General Hospital (Winnipeg)/GA1 and Talk:Eustrombus gigas/GA1. Sorry, --Philcha (talk) 09:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Philcha, I'm sorry that you are unwell, and I wish you a speedy recovery. There's no need for you to apologize! I will see what can be done with respect to those reviews. Geometry guy 11:28, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Dear Philcha. I have read through these reviews. Your approach is very detailed and intense, which may not be good for your health. One of the great benefits of GA is that no single editor is responsible for the outcome: it is a collective effort by all of us to improve the encyclopedia. "Mistakes" (e.g. reviews that miss a point) are not a problem because they can easily be fixed. Reviewers do not need to be the ultimate arbiter of every nomination, they just need to do a reasonable job to check whether the article is readable, verifiable, broad, stable, neutral and free. Already then the article is probably better than 98% of the encyclopedia. If a review misses an issue, the article can be delisted, renominated, brought to GAR and so on. This is not a problem and there is a splendid community willing to help. Geometry guy 23:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Geometry guy, I signed up to review Dragon's Egg and then felt I wasn't up to it and removed my name. I fear I may have accidently removed Dragon's Egg from GAN, as it is no longer there. What to do? (Also, I have asked Wehwalt to help with it, since he is familiar with the book.) —mattisse (Talk) 13:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Philcha nominated it, but didn't add the talk page template. It is still on the list and I've added the talk page template. Geometry guy 23:13, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you muchly. —mattisse (Talk) 23:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- No problem. Geometry guy 23:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you muchly. —mattisse (Talk) 23:15, 2 December 2009 (UTC)