EdJohnston (talk | contribs) →Forcing editing through threats: Ubikwit says he is considering an WP:RFC/U |
Seraphimblade (talk | contribs) Clarification request notice |
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Hi EdJohnston, |
Hi EdJohnston, |
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Please could you take a look at this AE request filed against me [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Result_concerning_Sprutt]. [[User:Grandmaster]] is trying to misrepresent my comments about his manipulations in a discussion as personal attacks. Thanks! [[User:Sprutt|Sprutt]] ([[User talk:Sprutt|talk]]) 00:22, 15 December 2012 (UTC) |
Please could you take a look at this AE request filed against me [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Result_concerning_Sprutt]. [[User:Grandmaster]] is trying to misrepresent my comments about his manipulations in a discussion as personal attacks. Thanks! [[User:Sprutt|Sprutt]] ([[User talk:Sprutt|talk]]) 00:22, 15 December 2012 (UTC) |
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==Request for clarification on [[WP:ARBSL]]== |
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I have filed a request at [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment]] for clarification on the scope of the topic ban placed upon [[User:Brews ohare|Brews ohare]] in the [[WP:ARBSL|Speed of light]] case. As you have recently participated in an [[WP:AE|arbitration enforcement]] request regarding this case and precipitating the clarification request, your comments would be welcome. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 06:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 06:11, 15 December 2012
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NLP
Ed, some advise please. Just before you froze the article user User:Reconsolidation made a series of changes which have also been attempted by two of his previous identities. Those are listed below. The link between each of those listed is evidence based. Reconsolidation starts as an IP from the Sydney area where all the four listed below came from, makes the same statements that they have edited before but refuse to say with which IDs and then follow a pattern of asking everyone to be reasonable, raising abstract questions on the talk page not related to edits etc. etc. Whenever this particular editor appears we also get new editors, both named and IPs who are more extreme and allow Comaze (to go back to the original name) to claim a higher moral position. We have at least one clear case of meat puppetry, and also links between the editor and WP:COI promotion of New Code NLP, advertising sessions with John Grinder (Inspiritive site linked to Action Potential/Comaze)
Previous IDs
- User:Comaze, subject to Arbcom injunction on NLP article
- User:Action potential (user page linked to Scott Coleman of comaze.com who also runs a web site promoting New Code)
- User:122.108.140.210
- User:122.x.x.x
Now the pattern has been that the minute it looks like the community is going to investigate the subject ANI or wherever gets saturated with comments that make it look like a simple content dispute rather than a long term pattern of disruptive behaviour. As that becomes clear all attempts to edit the article stop, and nothing happens for six months or so, then the whole pattern starts again. There is a lot of other stuff which I have notes of here.
Aside from the fact that I think the article should be restored to its stable state given the long term protection (which makes a lot of sense by the way so thanks for that), my real difficulty is to know how or where to raise the issue. A person who changes their name but does not edit in parallel is not a sock puppet, there is real evidence of one meat puppet but its fairly old, recent is more circumstantial. But the behaviour is clearly disruptive, is planned and executed over long periods and has material off wiki (web sites advising people how to edit to get NLP's version across, accusations of sock puppetry always taken up by at least one of the new editors to muddy the waters etc.)
My own view is that it really needs an experienced admin to investigate and then raise it at ANI or similar. However while I have been around a fair time and wasted far too much of it on this article, I'm not sure if that is the correct procedure. Your advise as I say would be appreciated. ----Snowded TALK 06:17, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
- The article is only semiprotected. If you think you see an organized campaign of editing to push a POV, that is something that could be filed at WP:SPI. It would be a fair amount of work, because you'd need to supply diffs. You would be relying on behavior to show the connection and probably couldn't expect any checkuser findings. If you can find something that looks convincing, you may be able to get action, either from admins at SPI, or through WP:Arbitration enforcement. The original Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Neuro-linguistic programming#Probation provides for article bans at the discretion of the enforcing administrator. I'm thinking that you could refile Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Enemesis with some new content and asking for specific sanctions. Now that semiprotection is in place, part of the problem will presumably go away. EdJohnston (talk) 06:32, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Ed, a request for help on how to get this article encyclopedic again, like all other Wiki articles. The first paragraph of the lead begins with "largely discredited", which seems to be Weasel Words. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_words) "Largely" is an adverb giving opinion, like "hugely". The word "discredited" is also misleading. An example I saw here on Wikipedia guides used Bill Clinton being "discredited". One could be hyperbolic and suggest that Bill Clinton was "discredited". That's a vague term trying to blanket the entire person. Instead, if we spoke specifically about his statements to congress about not having sex with Lewinski, we could the cite impeachment directly related to those comments, because impeachment is a legal process of Congress (not a collection of articles on the internet). Citing many articles of people challenging NLP should be used in a "Controversy and criticism" section, not imply an argument in the first paragraph about the entire topic. The last paragraph should contain the challenge to the topic, as I see in most every Wikipedia article. The first paragraphs should do their best to describe what the topic is. Instead, the lead reads now more like a political bias, not an encyclopedia article.
Though there are a substantial count of articles added recently, cited to suggest criticism of NLP, many are not in the public domain and cannot be reviewed for the actual statements cited, to verify the article actually states what is characterized in the article. In just one article by Witkowski, which is public, the major premise of the author is false: a) each of us uses a primary representational system (pg 59 p1) b) those can be accessed by eye movments thus c) "All other hypotheses of the NLP system related to the arising of mental disorders, the type of therapy and communication, etc. stem from these basic assertions." That is like saying "all of hypnosis stem from how the patient's head nods." Though the article appears to come from a Polish Psychological journal, the author knows little about NLP and so psychologists, also knowing very little, must simply assume his major premise is accurate, and thus the whole study is accurate. This is the challenge of any article written. Worse yet, what would a peer review reveal, if there was one? And, this is just one of the examples of why citing many articles to prove a POV does not therefore make the POV correct, just because there are many articles. Most importantly for an encyclopedia, that list of articles does not color the lead sentence and suggest to the reader what they should think. A great example of the failure of "scientific papers" is the study suggesting depression was genetic. For many years doctors were telling patients of these findings, which could never be duplicated.
I'm asking you Ed because as one editor suggested on the Talk page, the NLP article has become a "hornet's nest", thus the semi-protection, I imagine. There is a clear POV that NLP is "pseudo-science" (wording that has been challenged) and it seems the article is meant to steer people away from the subject matter rather than describe what it is. The page immediately suggests to the reader that they should stop reading, with POV words like "largely discredited", "claimed", "says", "unsupported". If we saw similar words used on the Buddhism, hypnosis, chiropractic pages, it would clearly be POV attack. Please advise on how to civilly return the page to a Wiki encyclopedia article as it had been 2004-on, until this year.
I cannot find a single article on Wikipedia that immediately attempts to "discredit" a topic. I suggest the entire lead needs to be rewritten in the encyclopedic form of any other Wiki article. Also, more can be added that further describes the workings of the topic, so we can know what it is before we know what is being challenged. How can that be done? Eturk001 (talk) 04:23, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Consider making these arguments at Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming. Note that there are 21 talk archives and some of these issues have been discussed many times. If you are hoping to make a major change you should consider opening a WP:Request for comment. The article is now in the Category:Pseudoscience and this judgment appears to be based on citable mainstream opinion, together with Wikipedia policy on fringe topics. Whether published papers are openly available on the web is not a factor on whether they can be cited in our articles, per WP:V. Your own personal attempt to refute Witkowski's arguments would be considered WP:Original research. You would need to find a notable expert who has published his criticism of Witkowski. EdJohnston (talk) 04:40, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks Ed!
What's confusing is that "largely discredited" has been pointed out many times, but there is the one person arguing that several articles justify "largely discredited". It's just banter and opinion at this point, from what I see in talk. How do we get to a decision if there's one opinion that their language is perfect? Who makes the change? Do I just remove that section with my argument post? With no one in charge, it's just who is most forceful. Steps please. Thanks! Want to do this and build a better article. Again, I've not seen one article in Wikipedia where the first leap paragraph discounts the topic, then it is hardly described. Eturk001 (talk) 23:44, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- You have not yet posted anything at all on Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming, so it's early in the day to declare you should go ahead and change the lead. Your comments about 'who is most forceful' suggest you are unfamiliar with Wikipedia policy. Changes should be supported by consensus. This is especially important on a highly contentious article like this one. Admins will intervene if they believe that edit warring, POV-pushing, or misuse of sources is going on. EdJohnston (talk) 14:58, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Accidental save
Hi, Ed, yes I accidently saved the dispute before finishing my extensive work, but it is now properly formatted and saved.Ackees (talk) 17:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Question
What is the policy on linking to an article in another language? On the Rumi article an editor has linked his father to a Russian article about his father(I guess?).[1] I do not know what the article in Russian is about or what it says. Thanks. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:01, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
- In my opinion the wikilink from Rumi's father's name to the Russian Wikipedia article should be undone. It might be OK to create a footnote in the Rumi article stating a few facts about the father, and include a link to Russian Wikipedia from there. Most likely the editor who added the link is in the best position to do that. He states he has en-3 competence in English, so you should be able to leave a message for him if you want. EdJohnston (talk) 18:41, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
Edit warring
See here how this user poisoned others users ears against me in uncivil manner instead of discussing calmly with me.---zeeyanketu talk to me 17:14, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Please Zeeyanketu. You broke the 3 RR rule. You are a known distruptor. You engaged in personal attacks against me as evidenced by the Jab Tak Hai Jaan talk page. So stop being so uncivil and rude and learn respect for fellow editors. Ashermadan (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Also Pleasant1623 is mediating our "dispute". It is resolved now I think after other editors weighed in. Ashermadan (talk) 18:05, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
- Please Zeeyanketu. You broke the 3 RR rule. You are a known distruptor. You engaged in personal attacks against me as evidenced by the Jab Tak Hai Jaan talk page. So stop being so uncivil and rude and learn respect for fellow editors. Ashermadan (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
WP tags
You are an administrator here? If I done anything wrong, please tell me what it is? I understand that there are all kinds of people in Wikipedia who rather attack personality of other user instead to challenge arguments on talk page. Please read my arguments on talk page and tell me which of my actions or comments was wrong. Oldhouse2012 (talk) 10:02, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
- You should follow whatever consensus is reached at Talk:History of Vojvodina#Move forward. It appears that others don't agree with you there as to which project tags belong on the article. If you continue to change tags without getting support from others, sanctions are possible. In particular, any more edits like those described at ANI are not in your best interest. If you want to keep working on articles in this area, avoid activities that could cause you to be topic banned. You have already been notified under WP:ARBEE. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 14:02, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
Imitation is the highest form of flattery
but....hi ed - could you do some wiki-magic and look into this new account, created today, which seems to be (so far) created to just edit a very controversial page. i have a suspicion it is a current editor using a sock account. i could be wrong, but the coincidence is too great. thanks. the new account is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Friends_of_soosim -- if you care, you can review the history behind it at Amiram Goldblum, his talk page, the editor rastiniak's talk page, etc. Soosim (talk) 11:18, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- (talk page stalker)I think you should rise this issue at AN/I this account should be blocked for trolling and CU.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 11:23, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- good idea. as experienced as i am in wiki world, i really try to avoid these wars and conflicts and methods to take corrective action. thanks. Soosim (talk) 11:32, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Looking into this. EdJohnston (talk) 14:41, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Elockid was kind enough to respond at User talk:Elockid#User talk:Friends of soosim. Meanwhile the account is blocked indef as a group account by FisherQueen. Clever! That saves me from figuring out whether it qualifies as a disruptive user name. EdJohnston (talk) 17:15, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- Looking into this. EdJohnston (talk) 14:41, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
- good idea. as experienced as i am in wiki world, i really try to avoid these wars and conflicts and methods to take corrective action. thanks. Soosim (talk) 11:32, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Request about Iğdır
Could you inform user:E4024[2] of the restrictions regarding the area of Armenian, Azerbaijani and Turkish articles. Judging from this edit[3], I found the reasoning to be duplicitous and questionable. Normally, I could care less about the modern era, but that does not justify the removal of a reference under clearly less than sincere reasons. Thank you. --Kansas Bear (talk) 01:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- We are speaking about removal of a reference from the Iğdır article. The link in ref. 17 did not work for me. By searching the armenian.ch site I found (gsa rather than asa): http://www.armenian.ch/gsa/Docs/faae02.pdf:
- We find on Page 32 of this document:
- "On the border to Armenia in the vicinity of Iğdır, a 45 meter high, martial monument was dedicated to the alleged Turkish victims of an Armenian genocide on October 5, 1999, along with a similar museum. The monument consists of five crossed swords and, according to a spokesperson of the governor of Iğdır, it is also visible from the Armenian capital city Yerevan: "Whenever the Armenians look towards their holy Mount Ararat, they will see our monument" [92] The official opening took place in the presence of the entire military elite of Turkey, including the chief of staff Hüseyin Kivrikoğlu as well as president Süleyman Demirel. In his address, Minister of State Ramazan Mirzaoğlu claimed that between 1915 and 1929 Armenians killed almost 80,000 people in Iğdır [93]."
- I agree that this seems relevant to the Iğdır article, assuming that it is going to discuss the monument at all.
- When E4024 removed this reference from the article, his edit summary was "→The Genocide Monument: I removed a source because at a quick reading saw no reference to this monument. It is not an RS either." I will leave a note for E4024 and see if he wants to comment here. EdJohnston (talk) 02:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- I don't want to pile on but E4024's editing in other genocide-related articles is not stellar either. Instead of trying to find sources for the facts mentioned in an article he has a tendency to rewrite text to suit his tastes and he also has a propensity to tag articles even though finding sources is not difficult. Examples from Genocides in history: E4024 adds template by whom, I repair template by adding reference; Here I restore original text by using reference which E4024 had modified to suit his tastes. Then I give him a few polite messages about his edits [4], [5], [6] which he reverts within a minute [7],[8],[9] and without comment. That kind of attitude is very disappointing. Here he removes a link from Greeks in Turkey with the misleading edit summary: Added video on Greeks of The City, removing link on one time event. Even though it was not a "one time event". In the link it is clearly stated that This was the third incident in four months in Istanbul including the murder of a Greek Orthodox church sexton. Of course let's not forget the regular insults to his co-editors which he regularly maligns using any linear combination of terms like "POV warriors", "nationalists", "biassed" etc. And the edit-warring as well. Just look at his block log. In addition we have his canvassing of admins insinuating that his opponents are socks or sockmasters. And refusing to apologise to the editors he accuses as sockmasters, see [10] and [11]. All in all a very disappointing picture. I almost forgot: He also has a tendency to insult his co-editors using the edit-summary field which is not easy to reply to and to edit-war on Genocides in history while adding the same passage about president Clinton which he did also today again (for the third time in violation of the spirit of ARBAA2 and despite having been reverted by three different editors) using the edit-summary field to again insult his co-editors: Who has better access to sources, academic or official, than the US President. This same source is used in the article for one side's argument but somehow not the other's. Please learn WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. But he does not engage in discussion at the talkpage of the article despite having been warned under ARBAA2 at his talkpage in the past. I told him about 1RR under ARBAA2 and guess what: He reverted me without comment. Funny enough in the past he asked you Ed if you have any other accounts: BTW EdJohnston, do you happen to have another user name? Regards. What can I say? Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 13:09, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- I gave E4024 a link to this discussion but he has chosen not to respond. He has been notified under WP:ARBAA2 and WP:ARBMAC, and these notices have been logged. EdJohnston (talk) 18:16, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
RE: Copyright question about a map
No I don't have any rights to the map. I just copied it from the source. It was a long time ago and I didn't really know much about the copyright laws. I guess it should be deleted.--Երևանցի ասելիք կա՞ 04:35, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Response
"Evildoer, please undo the new material which you added to the WP:AE report after it was closed. It will confuse the recordkeeping there. You can make these statements at Talk:List of indigenous peoples. Thank you,"
How do I do that? Also, how do I add a RfC to the indigenous peoples talk page?
Thank you,
Evildoer187 (talk) 19:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- If you view the history of WIkipedia:Arbitration enforcement you should see your last edit at the top of the list. After the entry, you should see '(undo)' or some such. You could click on the undo. Or you can just ask me to do it. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 19:40, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your undo. I notice that you've already opened an RFC at Talk:List of indigenous peoples#Include Jews as Indigenous to Western Asia. EdJohnston (talk) 20:11, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
List of indigenous peoples - Israelites
I was wondering if you would be so good as to explain to me why you have placed full protection from editing on this article. Crock81 (talk) 05:06, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- This was decided at WP:Arbitration enforcement#Evildoer187 under the authority of an arbitration case known as ARBPIA. Please read that discussion and come back here if you have any questions. Feel free to give your opinion in the WP:Request for comment which is now open on the article talk page. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 05:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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- I had posted a message in the relevant project talk page.
- Frankly I prefer talk page discussion to RfCs or AEs by the looks of them, but this one has descended into a structure-less subjective mess Crock81 (talk) 10:09, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- PS - Please also explain why this article falls within the {{Arab-Israeli Arbitration Enforcement}} criteria Crock81 (talk) 10:56, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- Admins do not make decisions on content, so it is unnecessary for you to copy your content arguments here. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians appear to be seeking an advantage in discussions at the UN by obtaining the status of indigenous peoples. Which group is most ancient in Palestine, and which is a later arrival, carries some weight for them. Debates on including these two groups in List of indigenous peoples fall under WP:ARBPIA, in my opinion. The debate has attracted several editors who often participate on other I-P articles. A WP:1RR rule is used to limit edit warring on the other I-P articles so it should apply to this one as well. EdJohnston (talk) 14:16, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- Discussions at the UN? Firstly, these wasn't cited. Secondly, its irrelevant as the UN chose not to (p.4) have a definition of indigenousness.
- How is the policy of WP:RS dependent on what the UN says on any given subject? Is Wikipedia apolitical or not?
- Even if the "working definition" is derived from the UN, it is at best incomplete, and at worst de-contextualised! The encyclopaedic entry ought to be written based on evidence, not considerations of controversy at the UN, or do I have this wrong?
- However, admins are supposed to look at editing behaviour. Your imposition of protection, prevents editing because some users simply don't like to see the entry for "Jews" under any name despite reliable sources. Either a population is indigenous, or it is not. That simple. Wikipedia is not a political organisation like the UN. It ought to be able to arrive at an objective definition of indigenousness, and apply it without bias to all entires on that list. I note that almost no other list entry has a reference, reliable or otherwise. This includes the most recent additions after my edits none of which have reliable sources.
- For example, by the current "working definition" used in the list, in the Maritime Southeast Asia Malays are indigenous to Singapore.(Levinson, Ethnic Groups Worldwide: A Ready Reference Group, 1998, p.278), but are excluded from the list. This has escaped anyone's attention while "Jews" have received inordinate attention because of political considerations. However, where is the Wikipedian objectivity?
- For Kurds there is no citing of the page number where the Kurds are pronounced indigenous, so the criteria on which it is based can be compared and contrasted to the definition the same editor insists on using in the article as the basis for inclusion. In allowing this, you are in effect taking sides. Is this appropriate admin participation?
- Assyrian cited reference comes from a short letter by the Sen. John J. Nimrod, Secretary General of the Assyrian Universal Alliance, which is hardly objective. It simply says that "In light of these historical facts and the overwhelming proofs that the Assyrians, Chaldeans and Syriac of Iraq and surrounding territories are beyond any doubts (!) the indigenous people of Iraq.", citing similar archaeological evidence that can be cited for Yisra'el, i.e. "...One only has to take a shovel and dig it into the ground". Is that the proposed "definition of indigenousness" to be used in the article? Note the use of three different names of the people, of which one is from the 'Bible' and the other is used for the name of the font in which the Torah is written! So Chaldean Assytians are indigenous, but the Israelite Yisra'el are not? So much for not allowing 'biblical references' which seems to apply to my editing but not to others.
- While you are at it, you may want to become aware of the Kurd vs Assyrian conflict such as outlined here and here and its historical context in the Assyrians, Kurds, and Ottomans: Intercommunal Relations on the Periphery of the Ottoman Empire, by Hirmis Aboona (particularly pp.102-103). WP:ARBKAA anyone?
- The cited reference to the Marsh Dwellers (Ma'dan) – Arabic-speaking group in the Tigris-Euphrates marshlands of southern Iraq/Iranian border was in fact copy/pasted by the editor from the PREVIOUS version of the article without so much as reading the item! The relevant citation is on p.420, not p.425 which deals with Bedouin (since removed).
- In any case, have you read the this document? Probably not, or you would have seen on page 86 the criticism of the US policy on indigenousness which
By limiting the definition of “American Indian” to existing societies, the U.S. government has actually denied the fact that people in North America prior to 1492 are culturally related to contemporary groups, and has excluded pre-Columbian peoples from being indigenous.
- In the case of Nishidani, the same argument is used, but shifted to the 7th century CE.
- Nor are you aware of the larger Islam vs everyone-else issue that had led to the only (prior to my editing) national definition of indigenousness in the Indigenous peoples article to be from the Philippines; nothing to do with the WP:ARBPIA. This is because the very same document mis-cited for the Ma'dan, says on page 319
The other issue is how indigenous peoples in the Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao will fare in the negotiations taking place between the Government of the Republic of the Philippines and the Mindanao Islamic Liberation Front (MILF), in which the MILF is insisting that the definition of indigenous territory should be in accordance with Islamic interpretation, even though the indigenous peoples assert that they were there before Islam arrived in that area.
- Just substitute the Government of Israel for Republic of the Philippines, and the Palestinian Authority for the Mindanao Islamic Liberation Front, because the nature of the negotiations is identical.
- And what is that Islamic definition of indigenousness? In Malaysia,
...bumiputera identity...emerged first as a set of informal social institutions that identified a bumi according to religion, custom, and to a lesser extent language. As Shamsul (2004) notes, the bumiputera identity was only formalized in public policy following the riots of May 1969, a watershed incident...What is critical is that there existed a powerful set of cultural identifiers that differentiated Malays from non-Malays long before the Malaysian government chose to formalize such distinctions. Significantly, bumi status was determined by one's faith as a Muslim and adherence to adat, a type of customary law overseeing a whole range of social and economic activities. As will be noted in Chapter 5, however, this definition of indigenousness, and difficulties translating it into constitutional terms, have continued to bedevil efforts at nation-building in Malaysia. (Shoup, Conflict and cooperation in multi-ethnic states: institutional incentives, myths, and counter-balancing, p.51)
Whether we use the label indigenous, bumiputera, or taukci to describe this higher level of political belonging, the message is essentially the same: I am a member of a privileged community that you, as an ethnic outsider, are unable to achieve.(Shoup, Conflict and cooperation in multi-ethnic states: institutional incentives, myths, and counter-balancing, p.18)
- This isn't a triviality because in Shari'a law trading is governed by the Mudaraba, Qirad and Muqarada (a Commenda), and if the trader is not a Muslim, there are religious restrictions that can be imposed on business activity until he/she either finds a Muslim partner, or converts to Islam. (Ahmed A. Fattah El-Ashker, The Islamic Business Enterprise, pp.75-77), so the Islamic definition of indigenousness is vital to basic lifestyle of non-Muslims in Islamic states where they are termed dhimmi. While the Malaysian constitution guarantees freedom of religion though making Islam the state religion, all ethnic Malays are considered Muslim by law of the Constitution, and Muslims are obliged to follow the decisions of Syariah courts in matters concerning their religion. The Civil Courts. despite being the supreme courts of the land, do not hear matters related to Islamic practices...such as business contracting in trade! The matter of defining indigenousness in some states has the same force as that of economic disenfranchisement! The UN failure to define indigenousness in fact promotes global economic disenfranchisement of the non-Muslims in all Islamic states with similar priority given to Islam in society and law. Wikipedia adherence to this serves the same purpose.
- In allowing unreferenced, mis-refrenced and badly referenced material, but disallowing referenced material, you are being biased against my edits where reliable sources were provided, but ignored. In effect you are promoting Indigenism by other means, i.e. promoting editorial conflicts (see list there, including Assyrian nationalism and the yet to be added Kurdish nationalism), and I think this warrants review by yourself of your action and participation in that article protection, and if not than by ArbCom for encouraging breach of WP:RS policy. Crock81 (talk) 23:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- I can't follow your objection. How can I break the WP:Reliable source policy by protecting the article? If you disagree with what is currently in the article, I assume you want to make this point on the article talk page and try to persuade the others that you are correct. If they accept your view, then an admin will change the article per the {{editprotect}} process. EdJohnston (talk) 03:56, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- Crock81, it's my impression that the following people are all you, based on behavior:
- Crock8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Crock81 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- 220.238.42.127 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- If you intend to participate on contentious articles you should limit yourself to a single account to avoid getting into problems with WP:SOCK. It may interest you to know that List of indigenous peoples has been tagged with the ARBPIA banner since April 16, 2011. The article was placed under full protection on seven different occasions in 2011. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 06:29, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- Crock81, it's my impression that the following people are all you, based on behavior:
- I can't follow your objection. How can I break the WP:Reliable source policy by protecting the article? If you disagree with what is currently in the article, I assume you want to make this point on the article talk page and try to persuade the others that you are correct. If they accept your view, then an admin will change the article per the {{editprotect}} process. EdJohnston (talk) 03:56, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- Admins do not make decisions on content, so it is unnecessary for you to copy your content arguments here. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians appear to be seeking an advantage in discussions at the UN by obtaining the status of indigenous peoples. Which group is most ancient in Palestine, and which is a later arrival, carries some weight for them. Debates on including these two groups in List of indigenous peoples fall under WP:ARBPIA, in my opinion. The debate has attracted several editors who often participate on other I-P articles. A WP:1RR rule is used to limit edit warring on the other I-P articles so it should apply to this one as well. EdJohnston (talk) 14:16, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
Ok, NOW I get it....you 'protected' the page without actually looking at the case in point! Or perhaps you are just biased as the rest? Let me make it very simple. I added Israelites as indigenous, while providing references that they do in fact consider themselves Israelites, and references that they are indigenous; the cited author literally said so. I also changed Bedouin to Arabians since very little convincing is required that Arabians are indigenous to the Arabian Peninsula, and the Bedouin article says they are nomadic Arabs. My edits were then summarily deleted with extreme prejudice! I attempted discussion, but meanwhile Evildoer187 was screwing around with my entry, performing cosmetic surgery, and getting into a revert war with some other editors who a) invented use of 'biblical references' as a pretext for my edit removal, and then b) invented an 'edit war' when Evildoer187 restored my edit Then they claimed the inclusion of "Jews" (I had not included "Jews"), is only possible if Palestinians are included!!! (Its like the parent argument "You can have ice cream but only if you give some to your sister!" Then, while I couldn't edit for various reason over the weekend, someone else replaced my entry with several entries that are either mis-referenced, unreferenced or unreliably referenced. Then you step in and 'protect' the article, so the article has had my text which is reliably referenced and unjustifiably removed, replaced with questionable and equally dispute-filled entries, and you helped to do it. In effect you are helping to reduce the quality of the article and doing so through your admin privileges. But, its worse than that, since you as an admin are apparently (I have done a bit of reading) supposed to propose MEDIATION before slapping a two monthly protection on article editing, in effect a two-month article block on me, but you didn't. In my eyes this makes you biased and complicit in the WP:ARBPIA by clearly taking sides and being disruptive to boot, never mind abuse of blocking privileges without any possibility of me stating my case! Less in fact than even a transgressing editor would get in terms of editing rights. Meanwhile I'm supposed to 'convince' the utterly partisan users in the talk pages that:
- a) although I have provided reliable sources that Israelites not just 'ancient history', and are indigenous to West Asia, AND
- b) that I have reliable sources provided as references that make statements factual, AND
- c) that no contrary evidence or reliable sources had been cited in the opposition to my edit
that I can actually E D I T!!!!! It seems this article requires me to jump more hurdles than in an Olympic steeplechase!
And, this despite the idiotic definition that serves for the criteria of inclusion in the list.
Had you noticed that the first part of the second sentence says
"Indigenous peoples are any ethnic group of peoples who are considered to fall under one of the internationally recognized definitions of Indigenous peoples, such as United Nations, the International Labour Organization and the World Bank"...BUT, the definition after the i.e. (second part) does not quote ANY of these organisations?!
Instead it quotes Douglas E. Sanders, “Indigenous Peoples: Issues of Definition” (1999) 8:1 Int’l J Cult Prop!!!!!!!!
Douglas Sanders was a Canadian law professor who worked for George Manuel, and he helped to draft the first legal proposal for indigenous self-determination in 1981. This paper was perhaps his last published work given he was born in 1938. Not only that, but though I don't have access to this paper, someone who does says that in the last paragraph, the one where the paper is usually summarised, Sanders makes the point "it is important to note that the principle of self-identification is an accepted practice and standard in the international sphere for determining the identity of indigenous peoples."(Tashi Phuntsok, Indigenous Peoples under International Law: An Asian Perspective, University of Western Ontario, 2012) This means that Sanders essentially agrees with the Cobo working definition and that of his successor Daes, that form the backbone of the 46 articles of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
So, why is it that you suppose the mob which had attacked my editing are refusing to use the FAR MORE OFT CITED definitions by the United Nations, the International Labour Organization and the World Bank, as criteria for inclusion of peoples in the article, and prefer to use the obscure paper of a Canadian law professor in a Journal most Wikipedians can't access all that easily? (I will make the effort if I have to to find out what Sanders really said). I am now editing the Indigenous peoples article, and it didn't have these organisations' definitions. I have now added the Cobo working definition in full, the basic points derived from the second Special Reporteur Daes, and the pointing to the 46 Articles of the 2007 United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, including the all-important Article 33 that served as basis for many national definitions. In fact all three organisations agree more or less in their definitions, but ALL were excluded from the List introduction despite being cited as authoritative!!!
So, I guess you need to make a choice.
You can start behaving like someone who cares about every Wikipedia article content and objectively contributes to it, or at least let me return to editing, or you can keep your 'protection' and show just how subjective and biased you are in applying your administration privileges. Harsh words, but that is my perspective of your participation in this 'edit war'.
Given I have an administrator to contend with in attempting to edit, and based on your reply, I may choose to invite you to an ArbCom 'discussion' to see if you can explain how it is that reliably referenced material was replaced with far lesser quality edits on your watch. It seems that one of the conditions of being granted administratorship is not to misuse the privileges to the detriment of Wikipedia and Wikipedians, and you are in breach as I see it. I hope you can prove me wrong Crock81 (talk) 08:00, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
PS: The issue with accounts was technical, and as you can see I identified myself in talk as Crock8 where logged in as an IP, and have since subsumed that account for the Crock81, the user page having been deleted, so nothing sock there.
And why was the Indigenous peoples article subjected to the ARBPIA banner? I hadn't edited ANY material remotely related to the issues there! Crock81 (talk) 08:00, 12 December 2012 (UTC) Yes, I saw that and had read the nonsensical 'discussions' in the archive. I was rather hoping that each edit is considered on its own merit, and not prior article history, particularly since I did not participate in those editing discussions. Crock81 (talk) 08:03, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- See WP:PROTECT for the policy on article protection. If you disagree with my decision, you can appeal it, but if you do so you will need to give a reason which actually makes sense under the policy. EdJohnston (talk) 16:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't see a reason that makes sense under which you slapped protection on the article because no one followed the Wikipedia:Disputed_statement#Disputed_statement process! You don't see any sense in the above?
- So before I embark on the request to lift the protection, I want to ask the following -
- "On pages that are experiencing edit warring, temporary full protection can force the parties to discuss their edits on the talk page, where they can reach consensus." - but I didn't edit-war with anyone, and Nishidani refused to talk! Consensus was impossible because my actual edits were not being discussed, so there isn't technically a "content dispute"! So what now?
- "administrators normally protect the current version, except where the current version contains content that clearly violates content policies" - but what policy did my editing violate? Yet you didn't protect my version, with proper reliable sources, but the later version with unreliable sources that do violate WP:RS. Why?
- "administrators may also revert to an old version of the page predating the edit war", but the 'edit war' was not justified since a) I didn't participate and b) the version prior to mine was reached without rhyme or reason or reliable sources? So what version will you revert to after unprotecting?
- WP:RS requires that "...all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered". Am I correct that this is not a requirement where lists are concerned?
- Discussion in the talk page should concern itself with the edit in question, and the contributing editor, and not any-and-all possible tangents or those making minor tweaks?
- WP:CON says "A consensus decision takes into account all of the proper concerns raised." - what are proper concerns? For example Nishidani's first deletion of my edit was summarises as "20:14, 6 December 2012 Nishidani (talk | contribs) . . (41,091 bytes) (-3,784) . . (There is no source listing Israelites as indigenous under the lead def. and the world org sources. As per talk) But of course the lead definition is contradictory to the World orgs that are not cited in the Indigenous peoples article. This, aside from ignoring that my cited sources said just that.
- See the FAQ on the Indigenous peoples talk page which informs that
- Q: Why does this article only include "minority" ethnic groups?
- A: Because we apply the definition of "indigenous peoples" used by international legislation by UN, UNESCO, ILO and WTO, which applies to those ethnic groups that were indigenous to a territory prior to being incorporated into a national state, and who are politically and culturally separate from the majority ethnic identity of the state that they are a part of. - we, the Wikipedians, because no such formulation is available from any of the four listed organisations. It rather assumes blanket indigenous helplessness in the face of colonial Europeans snapshot-in-time, which is rewriting history. The Tuareg were not subdued until 1917, but re-started seeking independence in Western Sahara in 1960! The Gurkha were never conquered by the British Empire. The Thai retained complete independence even under the partial occupation of the Japanese Empire during the Second World War. Therefore the definition used by we, the Wikipedians is at best misleading. The very fact of the post-colonial movements of independence and creation of new post-colonial states suggests that the indigenous people are not always the helpless and marginalised populations Wikipedia makes them out to be. Consider the Han who are now the majority in PRC, having overthrown the Manchu minority which had ruled Imperial China during European colonial period. Where are the Manchus on the list as a minority, and the Han as a past colonised indigenous majority?! Where are the Koreans that were the indigenous colonial minority of their peninsula under the Japanese Empire? The entire Indigenous subject area in Wikipedia is just rendered unencyclopaedic by such we statements.
- The next question is therefore - how can I reach consensus if the very basis of arguments on which the opposition to my edits is founded is a complete and utter invention, i.e. improper concerns raised?
- Where and how do I appeal the protection (doesn't say on WP:PROTECT)?
- I want to take this article back to restoring my edits, and if anyone wants 'consensus', they need to address THAT, based on the merits of the cited sources, and not their opinions.
- Can you help me with this? Crock81 (talk) 02:35, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- Please take this to some other administrator, or file an appeal at WP:AE. Your continuation of a content dispute on my talk page makes no sense. My proposal in WP:AE#Evildoer187 of full protection of the article received no objections in the discussion there. Another administrator, User:John Carter, supported this idea. Admins can't please everybody. EdJohnston (talk) 02:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- I will do that since you don't get it. I wasn't continuing content dispute, but reminding you that you, as an administrator, are not supposed to 'please' anyone, but a) evaluate the dispute, b) propose mediation, and failing that c) take action to support Wikipedia policies and procedures. Instead you chose to take sides, and support those that do not follow Wikipedia policies and procedures.
- In any case, at least procedurally you failed since though I was obviously involved, I was not notified of either the RfC or the AE, and had no opportunity to participate. Your protection was therefore based on 0 analysis of the issue at hand that cause the Nishidani vs Eveldoer187 revert war Crock81 (talk) 23:14, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- Please take this to some other administrator, or file an appeal at WP:AE. Your continuation of a content dispute on my talk page makes no sense. My proposal in WP:AE#Evildoer187 of full protection of the article received no objections in the discussion there. Another administrator, User:John Carter, supported this idea. Admins can't please everybody. EdJohnston (talk) 02:53, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
Forcing editing through threats
Hi, I would like to ask you to take a look on recent developments which I consider a serious violation of Wikipedia guidelines. User Ubikwit posted some king of warning/threat on my channel page [12] in order to influence my opinion regarding the subject in his favor, through threats. Similar warring he posted to user Eveldoer187 talk page. Also, in a way of WP:CANVASS he posted a message on user Yuvn86: [13] asking for support to enforce pressure on other editors. The same pattern was used previously [14] he is labeling editors as liars, despite being warred [15] Please check this issues, because this is not the way of conduct that is acceptable by our guidelines.--Tritomex (talk) 00:25, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
- User:Ubikwit suggests he is going to file a WP:RFC/U on both you and Evildoer187. Let him proceed with that if he wants to. Such a request needs a second person to certify it. We can only speculate it if he can find anyone else to support his view. He's an example of a rather new editor who arrives on Wikipedia with strong views but may not have enough command of English to explain his position well to others. I hope that some of the people working on Talk:List of indigenous peoples will try asking for help from experienced editors. Both User:Moxy and User:Maunus are very-long-time editors who have been active on the page. I have not checked where they may stand on the current dispute. EdJohnston (talk) 03:30, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Damorbel ban
Thanks fo your tip about making a comment. I do not feel inclined to say anything. What I read of the entries in the Physics project page is largely comments about me and proposed actions to inhibit my discussions and editing. I would rather wait until there an actual developement before reacting. I do my best to stick to article contents when contributing and I don't want to change that position.
If you see any thing unsatisfacty in this I would appreciate a note from you. Regards. --Damorbel (talk) 12:07, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
Objectivity
Here is a dif you may assess per your principle "If a person is truly editing neutrally, you should not be able to tell from a review of their contributions what side they favor." All the best. --E4024 (talk) 15:39, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
This has gone on for too long
I would appreciate your input on this matter. I feel this is the only way to resolve this dispute once and for all. Including one group and not the other will just continue to make people upset. It is absolutely imperative that we remain neutral and not take sides here, especially when it relates to what is perhaps the longest, ugliest, and nastiest conflict in modern human history.Evildoer187 (talk) 21:24, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- Consider opening a thread at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. That project has not been very active lately but in the past they have done good work. EdJohnston (talk) 22:39, 13 December 2012 (UTC)
- I opened a thread there yesterday, but they don't seem particularly receptive to it. I am primarily concerned because we don't seem to be reaching any kind of agreement, and it's just been an endless bicker-fest between myself and several others. Obviously, this is a hotly contested and sensitive topic that has been the center of never-ending controversy for several years now (from what I hear, this has been ongoing since 2006). I have expressed my desire to end the arguing once and for all and work towards building consensus for something I know that the majority of us can agree upon, since a large portion of us had earlier agreed that we should leave both Jews and Palestinians/Arabs out. However, partisans on both sides are determined to keep the argument going in hopes that it will eventually net them a victory. I am especially worried about Ubikwit, whose posting habits towards myself and several others have taken on an increasingly aggressive tone. A good number of his posts also contain conspiracy theories that are highly reminiscent of classic antisemitism, and this has become a concern.Evildoer187 (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
AE case
Hi EdJohnston, Please could you take a look at this AE request filed against me [16]. User:Grandmaster is trying to misrepresent my comments about his manipulations in a discussion as personal attacks. Thanks! Sprutt (talk) 00:22, 15 December 2012 (UTC)
Request for clarification on WP:ARBSL
I have filed a request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment for clarification on the scope of the topic ban placed upon Brews ohare in the Speed of light case. As you have recently participated in an arbitration enforcement request regarding this case and precipitating the clarification request, your comments would be welcome. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:11, 15 December 2012 (UTC)