→Content-free articles sourced to online sources that don't exist: added "--" to my comment |
→Content-free articles sourced to online sources that don't exist: modify my previous statement, and reply |
||
Line 152: | Line 152: | ||
:::Another angle to consider is about some or all of these ones as being archeological sites, different than other stubs. About stubs in general, there is policy for having them. I could be sympathetic to some other way of treating address-restricted archeological sites, though, so as not to call for photographs and revealing of private location information. As you know I have made proposals at wt:NRHP before about removing the archeological sites from the tables in NRHP list-articles. If these weren't in the Middlesex county NRHP list-article's table, i probably would not be wanting to create these articles. |
:::Another angle to consider is about some or all of these ones as being archeological sites, different than other stubs. About stubs in general, there is policy for having them. I could be sympathetic to some other way of treating address-restricted archeological sites, though, so as not to call for photographs and revealing of private location information. As you know I have made proposals at wt:NRHP before about removing the archeological sites from the tables in NRHP list-articles. If these weren't in the Middlesex county NRHP list-article's table, i probably would not be wanting to create these articles. |
||
:::In effect, what i did with these two articles was create emphatic dead-ends |
:::(modified) In effect, what i did with these two articles was perhaps create emphatic dead-ends. It is in fact part of my actual interest to kill off any further exploration and development on these topics, I guess. Or at least i will say that i think that no further development would be fine. In truth I don't want other editors looking around to figure out from local people where these sites are located and then posting that information. These are drafts of a sort, possibly suitably and/or deliberately boring and bureaucratic and uninviting. If there would be some way to get consensus for different treatment of address-restricted sites at the NRHP list-articles, too, i would be interested. Could you comment on your view regarding the address-restrictions and the protection of archeological sites? I could be agreeable to some comprehensive proposal involving no stubs on address restricted ones of these (which correlates highly to there being no NRHP nom docs available), if it is part of more general solution on address restriction protection. --[[User:Doncram|Doncram]] ([[User talk:Doncram#top|talk]]) 19:14, 9 January 2011 (UTC) |
||
::::I don't view those articles as "emphatic dead-ends"; rather, I see them as false advertising. For example, [[Roaring Brook sites]] is a stub article, but it appears to be supported by 4 reference citations, all of which appear to be online. In fact, however, there is NOTHING THERE other than the NRIS database entry -- and the creator of the article never actually saw any of the documents cited as sources. That's false advertising. --[[User:Orlady|Orlady]] ([[User talk:Orlady|talk]]) 19:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC) |
::::I don't view those articles as "emphatic dead-ends"; rather, I see them as false advertising. For example, [[Roaring Brook sites]] is a stub article, but it appears to be supported by 4 reference citations, all of which appear to be online. In fact, however, there is NOTHING THERE other than the NRIS database entry -- and the creator of the article never actually saw any of the documents cited as sources. That's false advertising. --[[User:Orlady|Orlady]] ([[User talk:Orlady|talk]]) 19:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC) |
||
:::::Okay, you're just picking up on the general stuff, not about archeological site address-restricted aspect. About the references, I would welcome some better wording. The links provided ''do'' document that the documents which the National Register says are available on-line at those URLs, are not in fact available online at those URLs. I don't want to drive readers to those URLs, but i do want to make it clear to possible editors that these are the URLs which the National Register points you to, yet they are bad. What do you suggest instead? --[[User:Doncram|Doncram]] ([[User talk:Doncram#top|talk]]) 19:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC) |
|||
==RE:== |
==RE:== |
Revision as of 19:52, 9 January 2011
Categories
There's no prohibition on linking to redlinked articles in body text, but there is an absolute rule against applying redlinked categories, especially when the redlink is the only category on the page. The problem is that when you're doing a batch run in AWB, it's not really possible to make a complex "do Thing A to some articles, do Thing B to some other articles" rule instead, nor is there any easy way to check every non-existing category to see if it's just misspelled. Really, the only thing one can do, when working with the uncategorized articles list, is to either tag everything or go through the entire list manually — and I'm not about to do the latter on a day when the list has almost 600 articles on it. Bearcat (talk) 17:40, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter whether a category looks reasonable or not. It either actually exists or it doesn't, and if it doesn't, then it can't be on articles period whether it "looks reasonable" or not. Ultimately where you lost me is the notion that it's somehow punitive to tag an article as lacking proper categorization; really, it's just a maintenance tag and that's just a question of keeping the encyclopedia organized, not one of "punishing" anyone. Also, when I'm doing a batch run on the new uncategorized articles list, it isn't my responsibility to individually hunt down the correct category for each article (especially as the list frequently comprises 500-1,000 articles in a single day) — although I certainly take the time to manually categorize articles whose correct category I already know, I don't have the responsibility (or the time, or the inclination) to go looking for the correct category if I can't name it right off the top of my head. The only responsibility that goes with the job is to make sure it's in the categorization project's queue so that somebody can look after it, not to personally categorize each and every article myself. Bearcat (talk) 07:03, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
DYK for Henry S. Baird
Materialscientist (talk) 20:16, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
DYK for Baird Law Office
Materialscientist (talk) 20:16, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
Personal attacks
This comment, particularly "So whatever he states, with or without supporting proof, should basically be disregarded," is not acceptable. Please re-read WP:No personal attacks, if you've forgotten the substance there. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:51, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'll browse it again later (have to run now tho). I am more familiar with wp:AGF where it is clear that we do not have to continually assume good faith on the part of an editor when there has been copious evidence running counter to that. For the moment, I just removed that specific sentence you objected to.
- I could, if i had to, provide copious diffs supporting the generalizations i stated in that comment, in an appropriate forum. It seems expeditious, and fundamentally courteous to the hundreds of editors watching there, to provide some quick characterization of this editors' behaviors with regard to hijacking article names. As you will have noticed, i did qualify with "i think" and intersperse a smiley or two in what i wrote already (yes, i am fully aware that such is not fully sufficient in many cases to avoid determination of violation of AGF or whatever). And the fundamental purpose of my opening and developing the thread is to head off tons of future drama which the editor's past and current behavior suggests will be likely.
- Should it be discussed in a user RFC/U instead, u might ask. But the guideline Talk page is a page about naming conventions; this is a prolific editor with a counter-guideline stance, who has taken a stance already by redirecting hundreds, perhaps thousands, of article names which would comply with the guideline. It seems relevant there. Gotta run. --Doncram (talk) 16:43, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Hickory Hill McLean, Virginia
I came across an article about Hickory Hill in McLean, Virginia. Robert&Ethel Kennedy lived there with their family and before them US Justice Robert Jackson. Apparently, Hickory Hill was nominated for a National Register of Historic Places designation. You might be interested in the article. Thanks-RFD (talk) 22:45, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
Invitation to join WikiProject United States
--Kumioko (talk) 04:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
- Welcome to the Project! Please let me know if you have any questions, comments or suggestions.--Kumioko (talk) 02:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Stubbing
I'd be interested in doing some occasional stubbing. Haven't looked at Connecticut recently, but I'll try to look more into it when I have some time. I just saw there was a big debate about using a bot on the NRHP talk page. Of course, I'm fully supportive, and that would allowus all more time to categorize and improve articles if they were all created efficiently. I was thinking about stubbing some churches in the States in the Deep South or Mid West at some point. That's great you can copy and paste basic articles from the talk page there in Connecticut. That should really help with article creation and elimination of redlinks. Swampyank (talk) 06:18, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
What does Davenport MRA mean? CTJF83 chat 18:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks...also, do you know a page similar to this where I can easily get descriptions for all the properties? CTJF83 chat 18:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
- That page is for a NRHP-listed place that is further designated as a National Historic Landmark. The NPS has such a page for each one. But out of the List of NHLs in IA, i see not one in Davenport. I don't think there's going to be a NPS page for each one anywhere else. But you can try google searching using the suggested search for each one in the /drafts page, meaning the search version that restricts search to the NPS web domain. Maybe there will be pages for some of them. --Doncram (talk) 19:23, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
Reply re NRHP coords
See my talk page for an update to the discussion on coordinates. Good luck with all your efforts! -- The Anome (talk) 22:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
new NRIS cite
Question... does the new citation (<ref name="nris">{{NRISref|version=2009a}}</ref>) link to a working on line version of the database, or does it cite the database without a link? Blueboar (talk) 14:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm... I still have some concerns as to how to word the citation (and I will raise them at the template talk page)... but we are definitely moving in the right direction. Most of my concerns with the old citation are resolved, so I am almost ready to swap out my edits. Thanks for being understanding on this... a little more patience and I think we will both be happy. Blueboar (talk) 15:44, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
Something impelled me to split off the City of Milwaukee from the County. So now there are 2 lists. User:Freekee had requested on the talkpage in April that somebody do this. He wasn't around to help, but I think I've got it. Another set of eyes to recheck never hurts though. 165 + 62 = 227 Smallbones (talk) 05:11, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- I prefer to use the NRHP color for tables of NRHPs, and NRHP-delisted color for table of delisted places, as i just edited in the two tables. I also notice that each list-article has just one recently delisted place. I bet there are more, not tabulated. And that there are owner objection cases and other cases where NRHP.COM and other internet sources assert are NRHP-listed. So I think those all should be added in tables below. Otherwise i think it looks fine, and if ur total numbers check then i would believe u split it without losing any.
- If you were actually interested and would use the information, I would be happy to run my sequence of batch-generation-of-articles programs to provide support for these two list-articles. That's one way to get all the delisted ones, as worked for my filling out such in another county list-article (National Register of Historic Places listings in Grand Forks County, North Dakota, where i tested the batch-generator). I don't happen to have a more specific table-generator program ready to just generate a table of all the delisted ones; i can only currently generate the whole batch of individual article drafts (from which you can pick out the delisted and owner objection and other ones). --Doncram (talk) 05:46, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking a look and correcting the color. I'm not against folks adding delisted sites, but it's not my priority - I just wanted to split the article as it stood. Listing "Owner objection" sites looks like a whole nother can of worms. I certainly wouldn't want to do the work, and I don't think anybody should start without consulting at wt:nrhp. There would likely be objections there, and I wouldn't support listing owner-objection sites without knowing a) about how many there are; b) how we could get good info on them; and c) what we expect to gain by the new type of listing. Thanks again. Smallbones (talk) 14:20, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Talkback
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Please refrain from personal attacks
I know that you are aware of WP:NPA, but it appears to me that you are stepping over the line in some of your recent comments at User talk:Polaron#unsourced CDP info. Please try to limit your comments to substantive discussion of the issues related to Wikipedia editing, and refrain from personalizing the discussion or making personal accusations. --Orlady (talk) 18:48, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Nice comment
Kudos for this comment. --Orlady (talk) 19:23, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for noticing that. It seemed to be immediately passed over by a glib dismissal; glad to know at least you appreciated what i said there. --Doncram (talk) 18:01, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
You've got Lvklock (talk) 21:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
NRHP importance
It's been done. Feast your eyes. :o --Ebyabe (talk) 02:42, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Awesome! I'm interpreting that to mean there are several thousand Florida NRHP articles in that. Only, how do we get to see importance X quality both? That'll show up, i suppose. Thanks! --Doncram (talk) 03:17, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Currently, the output on the NRHP homepage is not handled by a bot but by simple uses of the PAGESINCATEGORY magic word. There also exists a bot-generated table (though not as up to date as the PAGESINCAT one) that will soon be updated to include importance ratings now that they've been made available. That template can be found here. An example of a template like this that has importance already in it can be found here.
- I personally don't like the bot-generated table because it isn't updated real-time like the table currently on the project main page is. I don't, however, see a way to update the non-bot template to account for importance levels right this second. If there was an onwiki tool to show intersections of categories, that would be amazing, but I don't know of one. I'll look into it, but at the moment, I think we should just work on assessing the articles.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 03:36, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well there is a cross-category tool. Cross-cat or crosscat is what it is called i thot, but i can't find it now, it is not at wp:crosscat. --05:30, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- It is called Cat Scan, see http://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/CategoryIntersect.php. Not sure how just now to apply it to see the High importance X stub NRHP articles. --Doncram (talk) 05:34, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- Here it is applied to High importance X stub NRHP articles: here. And try High X start too. --Doncram (talk) 05:43, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- (ec... I really wish you would learn to write everything you have to say at once...) Right, I know about that, but I need an onwiki tool to make it update real-time. I think I may have found a good contender, but I'm waiting for that to come to fruition. I'll let you know when I figure something out.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 05:44, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
- I've worked out a solution that will update real time so we don't have to worry about bot runs. The table is currently viewable at Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places#Collaboration and review. The "intersection" categories haven't completely populated yet, so the numbers are extremely low for the time being, but as soon as the job queue catches up, the numbers should be accurate.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 00:15, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
DYK nomination of Doris (Sailing yacht)
Hello! Your submission of Doris (Sailing yacht) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! PM800 (talk) 18:46, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
Talkback
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Content-free articles sourced to online sources that don't exist
Hi, Doncram. I continue to appreciate your enthusiasm for creating articles about National Register properties, but it doesn't justify creating articles about topics for which there is no information. I just stumbled upon Roaring Brook sites, BOC Site, and Selden Island Site (a stub that you didn't create). These are three archeological sites with undisclosed locations, all based on the same study report. There are links to online documents, but all of those links point to placeholders -- none of the documents exist online. Bottom line is that there's nothing of substance in any of those three articles. The articles wasted my time by making me click on links that don't work. IMO, it was premature to create these three articles, as there is nothing in them that cannot be fully documented in the county NRHP lists. What do you say to deleting them? --Orlady (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, i believe the articles have merit, or i would not be creating them. I actually thought you would like the combo Roaring Brook sites article for being a combo, rather than having 2 separate articles, which also could be justified. These individual articles are themselves not important and not worth calling a lot of attention to. It would be overkill and a burden on other editors to have an AFD, say. So I wouldn't support you raising existence-of-articles as a big issue, but u are of course free to find a forum and try that.
- The wording i put into the Roaring Brook sites and BOC Site articles, mentioning documents and stating explicitly in mainspace that the documents are not available online, is unusual, i imagine. The MPS document does have to be mentioned in some way as an offline source that would be available and highly relevant, in the vein of "further reading" for interested wikipedia readers. I am open to discussion, and to figuring out an improved treatment, on this. Indeed, there is little info openly available from the National Register about these places. I think it is worthwhile to acknowledge that, and the mainspace treatment in these minor articles seems good to me. As a general principle on what to do for many possible articles like these, this part of what you are picking up upon may be good to discuss. --Doncram (talk) 17:59, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- My position is that if the only information Wikipedia has on these sites is name, ref number, listing date, county name, possibly town name, and name of the MPS study -- all information from NRIS, it is more beneficial to users to provide that information in a list article than to create individual articles that say little more than "it exists but no information is available." Furthermore, I felt that my time was being wasted when I clicked on the various links in the article references and discovered that there was NOTHING THERE. It is a disservice to users to lead them on that kind of wild-goose chase. --Orlady (talk) 18:53, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, there are many sources on the internet providing minimal or misleading information about these places, including the National Park Service's PDF Focus website which provides links to nomination documents for them (which turn out to be notices that the documents are not available online after all). It is a service for anyone actually looking for information, to find out in these wikipedia articles that the current state is that information is not available. An article provides a focal point for actual other information to be added, when it might be discovered, too. And the Talk page provides a proper place to discuss the information or how to find it. Please note the helpful "Find sources" links that i set up there, e.g. at Talk:Roaring Brook sites. While nothing great pops up when i browse those, it is still a (small) service to provide focus for searching and for discussion about these places. The searches do document that these are places with multiple internet links (not independent, but rather multiple NRIS mirror and wikipedia mirror sites). And, they do provide a minimal amount of additional information, namely that there is just one site within a given listing, and no contributing structures, for example. Part of the merit of the article is showing the current state of the art, that only an article like this can so far be created. If anyone can do better, great. It is saving time for editors who might try to fill a void where a redlink might be. The void has been filled, however briefly. So, I think these have merit. I'm sorry, but the fact that you followed me to these articles and are disappointed to find so little, doesn't weigh too highly. The articles are of value to any readers (very few of these might exist) who might actually be interested in the places.
- Another angle to consider is about some or all of these ones as being archeological sites, different than other stubs. About stubs in general, there is policy for having them. I could be sympathetic to some other way of treating address-restricted archeological sites, though, so as not to call for photographs and revealing of private location information. As you know I have made proposals at wt:NRHP before about removing the archeological sites from the tables in NRHP list-articles. If these weren't in the Middlesex county NRHP list-article's table, i probably would not be wanting to create these articles.
- (modified) In effect, what i did with these two articles was perhaps create emphatic dead-ends. It is in fact part of my actual interest to kill off any further exploration and development on these topics, I guess. Or at least i will say that i think that no further development would be fine. In truth I don't want other editors looking around to figure out from local people where these sites are located and then posting that information. These are drafts of a sort, possibly suitably and/or deliberately boring and bureaucratic and uninviting. If there would be some way to get consensus for different treatment of address-restricted sites at the NRHP list-articles, too, i would be interested. Could you comment on your view regarding the address-restrictions and the protection of archeological sites? I could be agreeable to some comprehensive proposal involving no stubs on address restricted ones of these (which correlates highly to there being no NRHP nom docs available), if it is part of more general solution on address restriction protection. --Doncram (talk) 19:14, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't view those articles as "emphatic dead-ends"; rather, I see them as false advertising. For example, Roaring Brook sites is a stub article, but it appears to be supported by 4 reference citations, all of which appear to be online. In fact, however, there is NOTHING THERE other than the NRIS database entry -- and the creator of the article never actually saw any of the documents cited as sources. That's false advertising. --Orlady (talk) 19:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, you're just picking up on the general stuff, not about archeological site address-restricted aspect. About the references, I would welcome some better wording. The links provided do document that the documents which the National Register says are available on-line at those URLs, are not in fact available online at those URLs. I don't want to drive readers to those URLs, but i do want to make it clear to possible editors that these are the URLs which the National Register points you to, yet they are bad. What do you suggest instead? --Doncram (talk) 19:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't view those articles as "emphatic dead-ends"; rather, I see them as false advertising. For example, Roaring Brook sites is a stub article, but it appears to be supported by 4 reference citations, all of which appear to be online. In fact, however, there is NOTHING THERE other than the NRIS database entry -- and the creator of the article never actually saw any of the documents cited as sources. That's false advertising. --Orlady (talk) 19:45, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
RE:
I fixed the DYK nom and will comment on what you brought up on the talk page. Candyo32 - Happy New Year :) 19:39, 9 January 2011 (UTC)