Rockpocket (talk | contribs) →Archived talk page: noted |
Vanished user 19794758563875 (talk | contribs) ArbCom case |
||
Line 106: | Line 106: | ||
: Noted. [[User:Rockpocket|Rockpocket]] [[User_talk:Rockpocket|(talk)]] 00:03, 6 May 2006 (UTC) |
: Noted. [[User:Rockpocket|Rockpocket]] [[User_talk:Rockpocket|(talk)]] 00:03, 6 May 2006 (UTC) |
||
== ArbCom case == |
|||
Buenas Dias, I have read the whole ArbCom case in which you are mentioned, and I think it is unfortunate that you are on there because I think you are not a problem at/for wikipedia. I have one suggestion, and that is not to try to retroactive justify some actions. At the time of the NPOV tagging, you provided specific reasons, and you can not expect people to know what you are going to add five days later. For that same reason, you can not use those arguments (the ones that you made several days later) in the ArbCom case as a defense for your actions. Personally, I think the best approach in this would be to admit that you did not do a good job explaining it at that time, and appologize for that. I think that that would be sufficient to get you away with just a mild cautioning by the ArbCom on exactly this point, without anything else. I think also that it will be looked upon in a much more favourable way. Everybody makes mistakes, and when people can admit them, and learn from them, others are generally very willing to let it be and move on. Of course, this is just my unsolicited opinion, and 0.02 Eurocents. [[User:KimvdLinde|Kim van der Linde]] <sup>[[User talk:KimvdLinde|at venus]]</sup> 06:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 06:32, 14 May 2006
Welcome to the Wikipedia!
Hello, and Welcome to the Wikipedia, Cesar Tort! Thanks for the contribution to the Anti-psychiatry article. Here are a few perfunctory tips to hasten your acculturation into the Wikipedia experience:
- Take a look at the Wikipedia Tutorial and Manual of Style.
- When you have time, please peruse The five pillars of Wikipedia, and Assume good faith, but keep in mind the unique style you brought to the Wiki!
- Always be mindful of striving for NPOV, be respectful of others' POV, and remember your perspective on the meaning of neutrality is invaluable!
- If you need any help, post your question at the Help Desk.
- Explore, be bold in editing, and, above all else, have fun!
And some odds and ends: Boilerplate text, Brilliant prose, Cite your sources, Civility, Conflict resolution, How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Pages needing attention, Peer review, Policy Library, Utilities, Verifiability, Village pump, and Wikiquette; also, you can sign your name on any page by typing four tildes: ~~~~.
Best of luck, Kittie Rose, and most importantly, have fun! Ombudsman 04:59, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Images
Hi, see here and here to see the image. The image that was on your page was Image:MinesweeperMine.png. It's alright, your not in trouble! It's just easier to avoid using copyrighted images. Kilo-Lima|(talk) 15:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Mother Teresa
Why shouldn't I change the sentence I changed if it has a {{fact}} tag? Gazpacho 17:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
- The tag is recent. There was a kind of editorial war on that page. An overzealous editor posted many “fact” tags. You can revert it again but, since there is almost a war, another editor will surely revert your entry. Sorry. Please read the Talk Archives. —Cesar Tort 18:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Re: your edit (Scientology and psychiatry Talk Page)
At [1], which you read what I had wrote and attempted to modify the page to fulfil what I stated should have been done by the previous editor to whom I was replying. Your edit then did what the editor I replied to should have done. The problem with your having done that, modifying a discussion page by inserting a subheading without contributing to the discussion below the subheading is that the action is not "agreed to by many editors" and is actualy counter to the Wikipedia Guidelines regarding the format of Discussion page disccusions. That wasn't you know, big error, that wasn't, you know, tremendous sin or anything, I'm just pointing out how subsequent reading of an discussion page which, forever after, will include your modification, could confuse and disperse the reader from understanding what is being said on a discussion page and why it is being said. :) Terryeo 23:43, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Tidying talk pages
Hi Cesar. I noticed that you have been erasing your talk page. I just thought i would let you know (before an angry Admin does) that Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines suggests one should not remove text that was added to your talk page without good reason. If you don't want certain correspondance on your page, then by all means archive it, but removing comments made in good faith completely is probably not a good idea. Contrary to popular belief, editor's talk pages are no more "theirs" than any other page on Wikipedia and, as such, the same rules apply about removing the valid contribution of others without their permission. However, should you wish to delete this message after reading it, you have my permission! ;) Rockpocket 20:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
- I was unaware of that policy. By the way, how did you know what I just did in my user talk page? Is there a way to click on something and automatically revert any previous deletion? I copied and pasted my deletions but wonder if there is a faster way. —Cesar Tort 20:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, if you click on the history tab for your talk page you will see a list of all previous versions. It appears the last version that contained all of the correspondance was on 15:51, 5 April 2006. If you click on that date you can view the old version of your talk page. You then simply have to click on the . You will notice there is a warning that "You are editing a prior version of this page. If you save it, any changes made since this version will be removed.". Simply "save page" without making any changes and this version will now become the latest version. There are even easier ways of doing this using various Wikipedia:Tools, but you need to install the code first. By the way, the reason i knew you had deleted was because i clicked on the (last) link in the edit history - that shows the difference in the last edit made. Hope that helps. Rockpocket 21:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Cesar, you can also keep track of what's happening on all the WP pages by going to the page for Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol — to help prevent vandalism. This is the place to go if you are interested in keeping spam out of the Wikipedia or in maintaining a professional level of writing in the articles. You probably have used the "My Watchlist" link at the top of your page. Every time you make a change to any page, it automatically gets placed on your watchlist. You can edit that list to eliminate articles that you do not have a continuing interest in monitoring. I only recently regiseterd as a user on the WP. Prior to that I made small edits to remove spam and correct grammar. But I thought that it would be best to have a Log-in name once I decided I wanted to make more substantive contributions. Ande B 20:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
You may want to add an article to this project
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Leifern/Wikiproject_health_controversies
Look for the list of articles that I produced as a page, I forget the name but it is linked from there. Midgley 21:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Arbitration request on Biological psychiatry
Cesar, as I explained on the Biological psychiatry talk page, I've filed an arbitration request for the disagreement. Joema 01:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- A rather funny request, since I haven’t touched the Biological psychiatry article since the very first minutes of 17 April 2006 UTC (npov tag). And as can be seen in my latest exchanges with Andre B and Rockpocket in the Talk Page of that article, and Midgley as well (see also my talk page above), lots of previous misunderstandings among us are being ironed out. —Cesar Tort 01:31, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Cesar as of today (19-Apr-06) Ombudsman was still POV tagging the article. The situation is not ironed out, even if you're momentarily restricting your opposition to the talk page. Nor did you or Ombudsman respond to the request for mediation. I begged and pleaded with you to cooperate. It's now in the hands of the arbitration committee. I have no idea what will happen. They may reject the request, or disallow further edits to the article by anyone or by only certain people. They could even ban editors from Wikipedia. Joema 03:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Though I don’t have the faintest idea what arbitration means, I very much doubt I violated a Wikipedia policy (as I said, I have not made any edits to the article for days; only discussed in the Talk Page). —Cesar Tort 05:14, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Cesar, Joema, too. I may be wrong, but I think it's probably preferred form to list all those who are likely to have an interest in the outcome of these disputes. I'm quite willing to take Cesar at his word when he says he will not re-tag the article. Clearly it is Ombudsman who has been refusing attempts at dialog. I don't think any of us like these sorts of bureaucratic processes but at times they are all we have to work with.
- Personally, I think I would enjoy discussing any number of topics with the contributors to the BioPsy article, even though I have raised criticisms. Sometimes I think that some of the problems we have encountered arise from the unusual situation of having several well educated, articulate individuals with somewhat divergent views on how best to handle this one topic. If we were dealing with ignorant or semi-literate contributors I don't think we would have spent so much time trying to get through to one another. And as I learned some time ago, intelligent, educated, articulate people are much more difficult to persuade than those with fewer such credentials. So, let's go through the process that was designed for these disputes and all agree to abide by the resolution, however it turns out. (Not that we will have much choice.) I have great expectations that Cesar will contribute substantially to other topics related to mental health public policies, an area where there is considerable dispute. I just want the Wikipedia to be the most professional production we make it. Who knows, we may find ourselves on the same side of other articles. Ande B 05:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I find it rather incredible that after my following statements in the Talk Page, which I kept, such steps have been taken. —Cesar Tort 05:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC):
- "But no: I won’t NPOV tag the article again for the simple reason that you outnumber me... —Cesar Tort 02:18, 17 April 2006 (UTC)"
- "Don’t worry Joema: I won’t touch the section that Rockpocket will post. —Cesar Tort 00:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)"
Hello Cesar I'm new to Wikipedia and have been following the debate on biopsych. Seems like your arguments haven't been taken seriously by rockpocket and co. Did you quit the field/are you currently in exile? solo999 17:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- Didn’t quit; just intimidated. —Cesar Tort 18:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- Just because you are in a minority, it does not follow that you are wrong. If you feel intimidated discussing the matter on the talk page, yet still believe you are correct in your interpretation on the situation you should make a statement at the ArbCom request. This is a forum where an independent committee of senior administrators will listen to all parties and make a binding decision. No-one should be intimidated into backing away from a matter that they feel strongly about and the ArbCom is not a tool to intimidate. Just because Joema took the case to them, if does not follow that that they would rule in his/"our" favour. So again, if you feel you are correct, you should put forward you case. Rockpocket (talk) 19:05, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Please don't modify your comments after they have been replied to. Maikel 19:50, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Hello,
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cesar Tort and Ombudsman vs others. Please add evidence to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cesar Tort and Ombudsman vs others/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cesar Tort and Ombudsman vs others/Workshop.
On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Johnleemk | Talk 09:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the notice. Is it not enough with my statement in "Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Cesar Tort and Ombudsman vs others"? [2] —Cesar Tort 20:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Cesar, You are not obliged to further respond if you chose not to (though you will be obliged to stick by any decision made, even in the absence of further contribution). You may wish to make a few statements repeating your original assertion on the evidence sub-page with links (as this, not the original statement, is where Arbcom will look for evidence to make decisions). Also, on the workshop subpage there is already a proposition to essentially leave you out of the process, as long as you are willing to agree to continue not POV tagging biological psychiatry and respect the consensus view of the majority of editors. Seeing as you have pretty much already asserted this, and if you have no interest in pushing the issue future, then you may wish to propose that your role in the process be withdrawn from consideration on that basis. This would not mean that you could not continue to contribute to this or any other article. Should you chose to do this, do so on the workshop page. I will support that proposition (and i sure others will to). If you do intend to POV tag that article again (or others in a similar situation) then you should not do that, instead you should probably try and justify your position the best you can. It is entirely up to you to decided how you wish to proceed, i'm not making any suggestions based on how i think ArbCom will rule, just my interpretation of your role. If you need any help on how to navigate the slightly confusing format of these pages, let me know and i can help you say what you want. Rockpocket (talk) 20:44, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Just when I introduced the many FDA and European warnings in biopsych talk page it seemed I was about to win the round against my many critics. But then the threatening specter of arbitration was used and our discussion abruptly ended. I do not know if what I have in mind is OK for Wiki policy. Since I am in a minority, of course I will keep my word regarding not POV tagging the article again, even if the article is clearly POV today. However, if in the future another editor posts the tag —and believe me: I never use sock-puppetry— and s/he has not the knowledge or intellectual muscle to rebut the majority view, I would like to help him/her in the Talk Page.
As to navigating the format of the pages, Should I state this in the workshop page? Should I paraphrase my statement in my above citation #2 in the evidence page? Will ArbCom see the various editors’ exchanges above in my user talk page (in Arbitration request on Biological psychiatry)? If not, should I copy and paste them for the evidence page? —Cesar Tort 22:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- I would just paraphrase your initial statement on the evidence page posting links to the diff pages as Joema has done (not cut and pastes, or links to the articles or talk pages themselves). The best way to do it is to boil your statements down to a few key sentences with links supporting each one, making clear what each link supports. I'll make my statements later today. Its pretty clear that Joema wants to widen up the case to consider that fact that both you and Ombudsman appear to dispute the legitamacy of mainstream science as POV, thus its possible that ArbCom may rule on whether or not you will be permitted to assist others in rebutting the majority view in future. Who knows. Rockpocket (talk) 00:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Archived talk page
Cesar,
Your points about the deleted talk page as they are both incorrect and pointless, and a back and forth debate about it is just distracting the purpose of the RfA. For the record, there was no selective archiving. Check the dates. Your apology and my reply were made on 16-17 March 2006 [3]. Following that, Franzio and i had a lengthy discussion, after the end of which i decided to archive my talk page (as the next comments pushed it over the recommended limit for page size).
Thus my archive includes everything up to and including 3 January 2006 – 17 March 2006. The first comment on the current talk page is on 19 March 2006 and contains everything subsequent to that. Thus suggestions that my "deleting/archiving" is selective is therefore groundless. Like every other archive, the break was chosen on date and size only. No refactoring took place and there is no attempt to 'hide' your apology. I suggest, for the sake of statement brevity, you strikethrough those accusations from the RfA before i am required to counter them again with the facts. Patently incorrect claims are not doing your argument much benefit at RfA. Rockpocket (talk) 00:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
- You started this little war my old friend. —Cesar Tort 08:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
- Goodness. "you started it"? Are we in a schoolyard? This is not "a war", we are simply trying to establish the groundrules for how to move forward from entrenched positions. No-one is trying to change your opinion, Cesar, but it is important that your (mine or anyone elses) opinion not interefere with encyclopaedic content. You made your primary motivations very clear when you first arrived here to edit anti-psychiatry. Now you have "learnt the ropes" a little, you are able to mask your aims with policy and try to erase some of your earlier innapropriate comments (i note you deleted your rants from the anti-psychiatry archive [4][5], quoting Wiki-ettiqute, yet you have never removed any other dispute, not did you obey Wiki-ettiqute that says Archives should not be edited. Si that not selective deletion?. I have no problem with you removing those, however, as i think your were emotional and did not mean to be offensive. However, to then (incorrectly) accuse others of deleting content is incredibly hypocritical!)
- However much more Wiki-savvy you have become, it does not change the fact that you clearly have a strong agenda in criticising psychiatry. I didn't want to drag all the anti-psychiatry evidence into the ArbCom, but since you continued to insist on introducing anti-psychiatry POV instead of bowing out when you were offered the opportunity, i felt i had no choice but to demonstrate a history of motivation. I am sorry, as i'm sure it is embarrassing, but its only fair the ArbCom get the whole picture. Rockpocket (talk) 18:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
My final word on your accusations will appear in another talk page [6]. —Cesar Tort 18:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
- Noted. Rockpocket (talk) 00:03, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
ArbCom case
Buenas Dias, I have read the whole ArbCom case in which you are mentioned, and I think it is unfortunate that you are on there because I think you are not a problem at/for wikipedia. I have one suggestion, and that is not to try to retroactive justify some actions. At the time of the NPOV tagging, you provided specific reasons, and you can not expect people to know what you are going to add five days later. For that same reason, you can not use those arguments (the ones that you made several days later) in the ArbCom case as a defense for your actions. Personally, I think the best approach in this would be to admit that you did not do a good job explaining it at that time, and appologize for that. I think that that would be sufficient to get you away with just a mild cautioning by the ArbCom on exactly this point, without anything else. I think also that it will be looked upon in a much more favourable way. Everybody makes mistakes, and when people can admit them, and learn from them, others are generally very willing to let it be and move on. Of course, this is just my unsolicited opinion, and 0.02 Eurocents. Kim van der Linde at venus 06:32, 14 May 2006 (UTC)