→Non-neutral RFCs: Replying to 2600:1004:B119:69DD:7878:F00B:B93:ECD (using reply-link) |
→Non-neutral RFCs: re night huron |
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Barkeep49, I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Robert_McClenon&diff=prev&oldid=945957260 raised a matter in Robert McClenon's user talk] that I think should receive your attention. Could you please decide what the appropriate course of action is in this situation? [[Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B101:7BCC:8C98:20E6:5BB5:D75|2600:1004:B101:7BCC:8C98:20E6:5BB5:D75]] ([[User talk:2600:1004:B101:7BCC:8C98:20E6:5BB5:D75|talk]]) 18:42, 17 March 2020 (UTC) |
Barkeep49, I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Robert_McClenon&diff=prev&oldid=945957260 raised a matter in Robert McClenon's user talk] that I think should receive your attention. Could you please decide what the appropriate course of action is in this situation? [[Special:Contributions/2600:1004:B101:7BCC:8C98:20E6:5BB5:D75|2600:1004:B101:7BCC:8C98:20E6:5BB5:D75]] ([[User talk:2600:1004:B101:7BCC:8C98:20E6:5BB5:D75|talk]]) 18:42, 17 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:2600:1004, I am not seeing something that causes great alarm. {{tqq|Is the claim that there are genetic differences in intelligence along racial lines a fringe viewpoint?}} is broad but falls in the yes/no dichotomy that RfCs handle well. Saying which specific sources would be effected is probably helpful in the longrun - that way someone doesn't answer yes if they're willing to defend some/all of those sources. What am I missing?{{pb}}Regardless of what I'm missing I think your best option per our [[WP:RFC|RfC page]] is {{tqq|If you feel an RfC is improperly worded, ask the originator to improve the wording, or add an alternative unbiased statement immediately below the RfC question template. Do not close the RfC just because you think the wording is biased. An <nowiki>{{rfc}}</nowiki> tag generally remains on the page until removed by Legobot or the originator. A discussion can be closed only when the criteria at Ending RfCs are met.}}. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 01:10, 18 March 2020 (UTC) |
:2600:1004, I am not seeing something that causes great alarm. {{tqq|Is the claim that there are genetic differences in intelligence along racial lines a fringe viewpoint?}} is broad but falls in the yes/no dichotomy that RfCs handle well. Saying which specific sources would be effected is probably helpful in the longrun - that way someone doesn't answer yes if they're willing to defend some/all of those sources. What am I missing?{{pb}}Regardless of what I'm missing I think your best option per our [[WP:RFC|RfC page]] is {{tqq|If you feel an RfC is improperly worded, ask the originator to improve the wording, or add an alternative unbiased statement immediately below the RfC question template. Do not close the RfC just because you think the wording is biased. An <nowiki>{{rfc}}</nowiki> tag generally remains on the page until removed by Legobot or the originator. A discussion can be closed only when the criteria at Ending RfCs are met.}}. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 01:10, 18 March 2020 (UTC) |
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::As I said in Robert McClenon's user talk, part of what is non-neutral about that RFC is the statement that I statement that I have "persistently advocated for lending credence to white supremacist sources". The RFC also states, "some editors have successfully been promoting |
::As I said in Robert McClenon's user talk, part of what is non-neutral about that RFC is the statement that I statement that I have "persistently advocated for lending credence to white supremacist sources". The RFC also states, "some editors have successfully been promoting scientific racism and white supremacist views, notably at Race and intelligence". |
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::I consider the statement that I and other editors have been advocating white supremacism to be a personal attack. While there is no denying that research about race and intelligence is popular among white supremacists, it also is something that's studied by professional psychologists, and my own motivation for participating in this article is because I want Wikipedia to accurately describe the scientific controversy over this topic. I suspect that is also true of most of the other editors who have been opposing NightHeron's actions. |
::I consider the statement that I and other editors have been advocating white supremacism to be a personal attack. While there is no denying that research about race and intelligence is popular among white supremacists, it also is something that's studied by professional psychologists, and my own motivation for participating in this article is because I want Wikipedia to accurately describe the scientific controversy over this topic. I suspect that is also true of most of the other editors who have been opposing NightHeron's actions. |
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:Barkeep49, the word 'fringe' and links to [[WP:FRINGE]] are thrown about on often on WP, and in my opinion inappropriately at times. {{u|NightHeron}} has raised a mostly compelling claim of [[WP:FALSEBALANCE]] but also a broad generalization as pseudoscience. Considering the actual text of that guideline, [[WP:FRINGE/PS]] and the overriding core [[WP:NPOV]] policy, what is the actual outcome of a 'yes' vote on that RFC? [[User:Fiveby|fiveby]] ([[User talk:Fiveby|talk]]) 15:19, 18 March 2020 (UTC) |
:Barkeep49, the word 'fringe' and links to [[WP:FRINGE]] are thrown about on often on WP, and in my opinion inappropriately at times. {{u|NightHeron}} has raised a mostly compelling claim of [[WP:FALSEBALANCE]] but also a broad generalization as pseudoscience. Considering the actual text of that guideline, [[WP:FRINGE/PS]] and the overriding core [[WP:NPOV]] policy, what is the actual outcome of a 'yes' vote on that RFC? [[User:Fiveby|fiveby]] ([[User talk:Fiveby|talk]]) 15:19, 18 March 2020 (UTC) |
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::{{u|Fiveby}}, that's a great question. Unfortunately I can't tell you in advance. Instead it would rely on how the closure closes it. There could be more or less nuance in the close and obviously that will have different effects. So in your participation I would say yes (or no) and what effect you would like it to have. In this way you're helping shape the consensus and thus the closing statement. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 23:28, 18 March 2020 (UTC) |
::{{u|Fiveby}}, that's a great question. Unfortunately I can't tell you in advance. Instead it would rely on how the closure closes it. There could be more or less nuance in the close and obviously that will have different effects. So in your participation I would say yes (or no) and what effect you would like it to have. In this way you're helping shape the consensus and thus the closing statement. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 23:28, 18 March 2020 (UTC) |
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I'm sorry about contributing to cluttering your talk-page, but since the lengthy complaints are directed against me, I feel that I have to defend myself, at the expense of brevity. First, concerning the RfC, I thought that by putting {{tq|*'''Yes''' as OP}} between the RfC statement and my argument in favor of my yes-vote, I was making a clear enough separation between the two. But I agree that your separation of discussion into a new section was a good idea. Next, concerning the proposal to ban IP-editors from [[Talk:Race and intelligence]], I was '''not''' the editor who proposed this. Here is the text of the diff (offered as evidence of my making personal attacks) in which I voted and argued (somewhat weakly) in favor of that proposal: {{tq|'''Support''' per jps and dithewave, although that restriction will probably have only a minor impact. My impression is that, historically, the problematic editors both on the article and the talk-page have not been predominantly IP-editors. On the other hand, (1) just one or two IP-editors can do a lot of [[WP:BLUDGEON|bludgeoning]], and (2) an IP-editor might be less inhibited in making white-supremacist or anti-semitic comments.}} Both (1) and (2) are general statements, not referring to any individual. In fact, worry (2), which is far more serious than (1), is based on my experience with other IP-editors on other pages. Once on an abortion-related article I had edited using a source written by a woman with a Jewish-sounding name, it was reverted by an IP-editor with an edit summary calling it a "kike lesbian source." More recently, after I reverted some extremist vandalism on [[Talk:White privilege]] (later removed from view by an admin because it called for violence against editors), a few minutes later the vandal using a different IP-address came to my user talk-page threatening me with hate speech. Given that there's been alt-right off-wiki canvassing (for example, for the recent AfD for [[Race and intelligence]]), I thought that the same type of threat that I'd seen on [[Talk:White privilege]] could be repeated. That explains my vote and my reason (2) for it. |
I'm sorry about contributing to cluttering your talk-page, but since the lengthy complaints are directed against me, I feel that I have to defend myself, at the expense of brevity. First, concerning the RfC, I thought that by putting {{tq|*'''Yes''' as OP}} between the RfC statement and my argument in favor of my yes-vote, I was making a clear enough separation between the two. But I agree that your separation of discussion into a new section was a good idea. Next, concerning the proposal to ban IP-editors from [[Talk:Race and intelligence]], I was '''not''' the editor who proposed this. Here is the text of the diff (offered as evidence of my making personal attacks) in which I voted and argued (somewhat weakly) in favor of that proposal: {{tq|'''Support''' per jps and dithewave, although that restriction will probably have only a minor impact. My impression is that, historically, the problematic editors both on the article and the talk-page have not been predominantly IP-editors. On the other hand, (1) just one or two IP-editors can do a lot of [[WP:BLUDGEON|bludgeoning]], and (2) an IP-editor might be less inhibited in making white-supremacist or anti-semitic comments.}} Both (1) and (2) are general statements, not referring to any individual. In fact, worry (2), which is far more serious than (1), is based on my experience with other IP-editors on other pages. Once on an abortion-related article I had edited using a source written by a woman with a Jewish-sounding name, it was reverted by an IP-editor with an edit summary calling it a "kike lesbian source." More recently, after I reverted some extremist vandalism on [[Talk:White privilege]] (later removed from view by an admin because it called for violence against editors), a few minutes later the vandal using a different IP-address came to my user talk-page threatening me with hate speech. Given that there's been alt-right off-wiki canvassing (for example, for the recent AfD for [[Race and intelligence]]), I thought that the same type of threat that I'd seen on [[Talk:White privilege]] could be repeated. That explains my vote and my reason (2) for it. |
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Anyway, thanks for your patience. [[User:NightHeron|NightHeron]] ([[User talk:NightHeron|talk]]) 22:45, 18 March 2020 (UTC) |
Anyway, thanks for your patience. [[User:NightHeron|NightHeron]] ([[User talk:NightHeron|talk]]) 22:45, 18 March 2020 (UTC) |
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:{{re|NightHeron}}, first 6k bytes is quite the massive post. So apologies if I don't address everything. Starting towards the end: you are of course correct that this is not a formal behavioral forum and you will notice that I have in general not found anything actionable in what's been discussed here. The most admin like action about you is my expressing an interest in diffs - whose existence allow me to continue to say that I'm not seeing anything actionable in regards to the IP. I think having a place where editors can ask questions about fraught topics is helpful and can decrease the overall tension. As you yourself noted, ANI is quite a different environment. It has its purpose but so does lower visibility discussion. I have quite a few sysops and other editors who I respect who watch this page and I haven't gotten feedback that what I'm doing is wrong. If that were to change I would reconsider. |
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:So as to the other pieces, I do think, now that you're here, that you need to be very careful when describing people as white supremacists. More careful than you've been to date - the stuff on Piffer is not nearly strong enough, for instance. Strong claims (which calling someone a white supremecist certainly is) requires strong strong evidence. [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 03:19, 19 March 2020 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:19, 19 March 2020
PRICES-like NSPORTS RFC
Maybe you can't comment on this because of your ongoing involvement with the currently-ongoing drug prices RFC, but you're one of the few editors (only?) who has been involved in both discussions. What do you think about a discussion RFC, in the format of the current drug prices RFC (with a series of questions for discussion, no explicit questions to !vote on), for NSPORTS, or for the SNG-v-GNG question altogether? Sort of an open-ended solicitation of opinions and discussion, with an eye towards later proposing some concrete policy language changes (if necessary) based on those discussions? Levivich (talk) 17:41, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Levivich, it's an interesting thought (though I will point out that I'm not INVOLVED involved with MOSMED). I think that RfC has been largely a good one but am curious to see how it closes out before wanting to necessarily replicate it in a new place. As Djsasso points out, and we both also know, NFOOTY is its own little world and has enough passionate editors that an RfC, even one like you're suggesting, could be derailed. This is a long way of saying "Yeah I think this could work but I'm not quite sure we should do it yet." Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:00, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Yep, FOOTY has derailed any attempt to adjust NSPORTS in the past. But it isn't necessarily even just them. There would be editors who have nothing to do with sports editing that think we already allow too many sports articles and so on and then people who want to protect their own favourite sports criteria. It can get messy fast. I am all for getting a nice clear mandate on it. Just assume it will be one big shit show. -DJSasso (talk) 18:06, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- (No, not INVOLVED involved... WP really needs to start using something normal like "conflicted out" instead of the overly-vague/re-defined "involved", but, well, that's Wikispeak...) (1) Any such RFC would have to be about NSPORTS in general, and not about NFOOTY in particular. None of the examples can be from NFOOTY. We shouldn't even type the letters N, F, O, T, or Y, just to be safe. (2) _eah, I agree, we sh_uld see h_w _he prices R_C plays _u_ and wha_ less__s ca_ be draw_ be__re _ryi_g it _u_ agai_ s_mewhere else. Levivich (talk) 18:07, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Although there are vocal dissenters, the viewpoints described in the FAQ have been affirmed by consensus over and over again at the sports notability talk page (and that's why I wrote a FAQ to answer those questions that get frequently asked). The problem is that commenters at deletion discussions only refer to the specific criteria for the appropriate sport, and closers only take into account the mention of the criteria. Some (many?) people think if that's what's happening at AfD, then that's what we should be documenting in the guideline, since guidelines are supposed to be descriptive and not prescriptive. That would mean shifting to an achievement-based standard, and as Djsasso mentions above, would attract the disapproval of the many editors who think there are far too many sports articles. So if enough of the AfD participants show up, it might be possible for an RfC to reverse the long-held consensus, but trying to set achievement-based standards is going to face a lot of opposition and indeed be very divisive and messy. isaacl (talk) 18:56, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- I've always thought the current approach was the best way to have a useful guideline that lets people create articles with minimal arguing, both amongst sports fans and those who don't want any exceptions to the general notability guideline. But given that for some reason, people want to argue the general philosophy over and over again, rather than just work on improving the specific sports criteria (after all, if the football guideline becomes an
standard-based achievementachievement-based standard, it doesn't fix any of the problems that some currently perceive), maybe the time has come for change. Somehow, if the arguing can be restricted to the specific sports under scrutiny, and leave out the sports that have worked assiduously to make their criteria effective, it would save a lot of time. isaacl (talk) 19:10, 28 February 2020 (UTC) - mini-rant: I'm so tired of people treating the guidelines like legislation: "you say you meant that, but you wrote this, so my interpretation of this is correct". All the past discussions are available and people have explained what they meant. If the wording is imperfect, it doesn't mean people secretly meant something else. isaacl (talk) 19:20, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Isaacl for chiming in. Lots of good thoughts in general about all this. I agree with you that being able to reference the original discussions provides important context and we do ourselves a disservice at times by not referencing back to it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:38, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- IMO all our PAGs would benefit from being re-written to be more legislative. The problem is they're too long; too many words leaves too much material to interpret, and thus too much room for interpretation. They should be short, simple, direct, declarative, and above all else, very, very clear, so there is no room for interpretation. 10 Commandments-style: thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt always have a source for controversial statements in a BLP, etc. Every sentence should be footnoted with a link to the RFC that confirms the global consensus being documented. Some of our PAGs do a better job of this than others. On my wikibucketlist is putting together a brain trust of our most veteran users to review all PAGs and suggest re-drafts for community approval, so that every PAG is short and simple enough that (a) editors actually read them, (b) editors actually understand them, and (c) editors actually follow them. Someday. But maybe NSPORTS is not a bad place to start. Levivich (talk) 04:41, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- Not sure if you've read much legislation... it's typically not short, simple, or direct. The English common law system (which underlies the legal systems of many places that were originally settled by the British) is based on precedents, so there's a lot of law not based on written legislation. If you haven't read it already, consider reading Clay Shirky's "A group is its own worst enemy" and see the problems with hierarchy-less online communities. They start out thinking they can have simple, clear rules that can easily be judged by consensus. But as more nuanced situations arise, they add more elaborations. Eventually it becomes easier just to have a hierarchy to make judgment calls rather than try to cover everything in advance. isaacl (talk) 05:26, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- IMO all our PAGs would benefit from being re-written to be more legislative. The problem is they're too long; too many words leaves too much material to interpret, and thus too much room for interpretation. They should be short, simple, direct, declarative, and above all else, very, very clear, so there is no room for interpretation. 10 Commandments-style: thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt always have a source for controversial statements in a BLP, etc. Every sentence should be footnoted with a link to the RFC that confirms the global consensus being documented. Some of our PAGs do a better job of this than others. On my wikibucketlist is putting together a brain trust of our most veteran users to review all PAGs and suggest re-drafts for community approval, so that every PAG is short and simple enough that (a) editors actually read them, (b) editors actually understand them, and (c) editors actually follow them. Someday. But maybe NSPORTS is not a bad place to start. Levivich (talk) 04:41, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks Isaacl for chiming in. Lots of good thoughts in general about all this. I agree with you that being able to reference the original discussions provides important context and we do ourselves a disservice at times by not referencing back to it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:38, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Since I suggested the above "discussion" RFC, I also wanted to leave a note here suggesting something very different: a multiple-choice "temperature-check" RFC (non-coronavirus-related), that would ask editors to pick one from a series of statements, such as:
- A) All articles should satisfy GNG. If at least two GNG-satisfying sources cannot be found after an AFD, the article must be deleted. No exceptions apply.
- B) All articles should satisfy GNG. If at least two GNG-satisfying sources cannot be found after an AFD, the article should be deleted in most cases; but editors may make exceptions on a case-by-case basis. However, meeting an SNG, alone, is not enough for an article to be kept.
- C) All articles should satisfy either GNG or an SNG. If an article at AFD is shown to meet an SNG, it should be kept, regardless of whether it satisfies GNG.
- D) All articles should satisfy either GNG or certain SNGs but not others. The community may decide (by RFC) that a certain SNG is an alternative to GNG, such as NPROF.
- E) All articles should satisfy either GNG or an SNG or be about Levivich. Articles about Levivich are inherently notable.
If the community comes out, say, with B, C, or D, then we can go about proposing changes to the various guidelines to bring them in line with this consensus. Another question is whether to do this for all SNGs or just start with one, (like NSPORTS... or maybe not NSPORTS, maybe better to start with another SNG). Levivich (talk) 04:41, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- The problem is what is a GNG-satisfying source? That's in part why there are all these subject-specific notability guidelines: to sort out the difference between passing mentions and actual notable coverage. And the ultimate problem remains: if closers only consider the specific arguments made during a deletion discussion, all of this is only advisory. Commenters will continue to provide their opinions based on their own internal evaluation of what subjects should have articles, and closers will continue to close discussions based strictly on these expressed opinions. isaacl (talk) 05:26, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- Except, as you point out above and in many other places and times, consensus is hard to come by. I think we'll always have some healthy disagreement over what sources satisfy GNG. That's OK. Closers reflecting the consensus of the discussion at hand is predicated on making sure that the quorum of editors who show up to AfD discussions (broadly speaking) are competent to do so. And I don't have a great solution for things on that front. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:45, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- Temperature check RfCs are interesting but even with just four choices getting a consensus of editor agreement would prove difficult. If there was a distribution of editors along the lines of A - 10% B - 20% C - 30 % D - 40% (to make up some numbers) what have we learned? How does that help us move forward to a more effective system? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:45, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- We will have learned that 70% of editors do not favor making GNG a requirement, i.e., there is clear consensus against options A and B. So then we run a second RFA just on options C and D ... i.e., should all SNGs be an alternative to GNG, or just some? The second RFC might have these two options:
- (A) All articles should satisfy either GNG or any SNG. If an article at AFD is shown to meet any SNG, it should be kept, regardless of whether it satisfies GNG.
- (B) All articles should satisfy either GNG, or only those SNGs that the community has determined by RFC to be an alternative to GNG.
- Most likely, the 30% who voted A or B on the first RFC will vote B on the second RFC, and you'll have, for the second RFC: A - 30%, D - 70%, and then D is the winner. Then we can update GNG and all the SNGs accordingly ("must meet GNG or a specially-designated SNG). We might run a third RFC along the lines of, "The following SNGs are alternative to GNG: ..." and let people !vote on that. Then we could explicitly say which SNGs are specially-designated and which are not. Mind you, this is what I believe is the actual status quo, with NPROF being the only specially-designated SNG; however, even if we went through this process and ended up at the status quo, we could at least add some language to all the guidelines making it explicit, with a footnoted citation to 2020 RFCs; thereby confirming stability, clarity, broad acceptance. For example, I think having these aforementioned hypothetical RFCs would have made a difference at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yun Chol (weightlifter). Levivich (talk) 18:07, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- I think a few more SNGs than NPROF might survive as alternatives to GNG (NUMBERS with the best chance and BOOKS with a chance). It's an interesting thought for an RfC. I'd want to think on this some more and would be curious what anyone else who is watching this page might think. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:30, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- Many subject-specific notability guidelines already defer to the general notability guideline. I don't think the payoff is worth the effort to try to create generic meta-guidelines on how to create guidelines. If the guidelines are already not treated as having the force of consensus at AfDs, I don't think meta-guidelines will have any effect. Making rules is often not the problem; the problem is how decisions are made. Consensus only works when everyone has strong alignment in goals, and that is rapidly unlikely as a group grows in size. (They aren't wrong or right; just different. For example, some might think that Wikipedia should be written at a grade 5 level, for greater accessibility, while other might think it should be written at a grade 8 level, for greater conciseness.) So guidelines can't be enforced, because the consensus of the day isn't bound by them unless it agrees to be bound by them. The only way out is for some form of hierarchy to exist, so a direction can be established and adhered to. This would in essence bias article content in that direction, and of course many of today's editors will object to ceding control to a subgroup to decide. So we are stuck with endless discussion, at least until they all start to deadlock, at which point the community might be convinced to try a different way of making decisions. isaacl (talk) 18:51, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- Personally, I would love to start from scratch at defining what should have an article in an encyclopedia/almanac/gazeteer. Set up specific criteria for each subject area/topic type. Then only rely on GNG for any article that doesn't meet its type's specific criteria or doesn't have a defined type. (I would also like a rule that article creators must specify the justification for the article on its Talk page.) Ah, dreams... Schazjmd (talk) 19:39, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting discussion. I think that an RfC on this is a noble ambition, and if done properly it would be a good thing, since our notability guidelines are scattered across many different articles and can be difficult to navigate; however, I can see a risk of a discussion becoming difficult, with objections coming from lots of different directions (not just a simple deletionist/inclusionist dichotomy). Some random thoughts:
- NPROF versus GNG - this deletion discussion taught me that many experienced editors believe that NPROF trumps GNG, and they are happy to have an article based pretty-much exclusively on self-published/affiliated sources, provided the subject's citation index is stellar enough.
- NCORP persus GNG - NCORP is really just a beefed-up, better spelled-out version of GNG, but it can seen as being more restrictive than regular notability - no bad thing, given the amount of promotion dressed up as articles that we get. If GNG we able to trump NCORP, would it make fighting spam more difficult?
- Sports - we have thousands of articles about olympians and similar, which are basically one or two sentences, sourced to a list somewhere. Discussions I've seen about those articles tend not to revolve around whether it's actually useful for us to have the article, or whether the sourcing is adequate, but around whether the subject has 'earned' or is 'worthy of' an article. People often see it as western-centric for us to fail to have articles about sportspeople from small countries, where the sport is perhaps less developed and the individual is less likely to have been written about in RS; indeed, I get the impression that they think it's borderline racist of is to discuss deleting such an article.
- So, yeah - it would be good to get some more clarity on all of this, but an RfC would have to be crafted very carefully, and go in small steps if we are to hope to achieve a consensus - people will be pulling in lots of different directions. GirthSummit (blether) 17:07, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
- Yun Chol was one example, here's another ongoing, where participants clearly have very different views of what the notability guidelines require. Levivich [dubious – discuss] 20:34, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
- We will have learned that 70% of editors do not favor making GNG a requirement, i.e., there is clear consensus against options A and B. So then we run a second RFA just on options C and D ... i.e., should all SNGs be an alternative to GNG, or just some? The second RFC might have these two options:
Race and intelligence sourcing
While I think it's a step in the right direction to restrict sourcing to the best sources, I hope you understand that when you make a determination as broad as "specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals and academically focused books by reputable publishers", you invite the POV-pushers to insist that the sources supporting their fringe theory are peer-reviewed and therefore must be acceptable. After all, many fringe theories manage to get their views published in some journal or another, or have authors who publish theories completely rejected by mainstream scientific view.
I work a lot in articles under the aegis of WP:MEDRS and I'm very familiar with that sort of behaviour at Acupuncture, Chiropractic, and others – not to mention unscientific POV-pushers at Abortion and marijuana-related articles. MEDRS needs over 5,000 words to explain the importance and necessity of sticking to only the best quality sources, and I've been grateful for all of those at one time or another.
I'm pleased that you're committing to monitor the sanction at R&I, and hope that you'll be willing to make use of some of the proven advice given in MEDRS in the likely event that you have to tweak the sanction in the future. --RexxS (talk) 00:29, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the thoughts RexxS. Doug Weller raised similar concerns about this at AE, using the example of Mankind Quarterly. I was persuaded by the response that Paul Siebert gave that the sanction could work. I will be happy to say, and put it here with an easy to point to diff, that just because something is in a peer-reviewed journal or an academically focused book does not mean that it has to be included. That remains an editorial judgement for which a range of policies and guidelines, including NPOV (specifically DUE), matter. As you noted I plan to continue to monitor the article, am happy to receive feedback from you and other editors about the sanction, and will modify the sanction if/when it is necessary. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:43, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reflection, and I agree 100%. May I add that for these purposes, WP:PSTS is even more pertinent, and WP:Verifiability #Original research bullet point 3 sums it up succinctly. Cheers --RexxS (talk) 01:04, 4 March 2020 (UTC)
I'd like you to please clarify something about the new sourcing restrictions. On this page it says, "Anyone found to be misrepresenting a source, either in the article or on the talk page, will be subject to escalating topic bans, and are subject to discretionary sanctions while editing this page." When someone is misrepresenting a source, where should that problem be raised? I anticipate some difficulty handling reports about misrepresented sources at Arbitration Enforcement, because a lot of sources are behind paywalls so most admins won't be able to access them.
As I and a few other editors have pointed out, Levivich is misrepresenting a few sources on the article's talk page in order to support his proposed move. For example, he is claiming that this paper by Myserson et al. supports describing research about race and intelligence as a "myth", and while the paper does discuss race and intelligence, it is using the term "myth" for a separate hypothesis about the limit of IQ's ability to be improved by education. It would be useful to establish a process for handling complaints about this type of situation. 2600:1004:B114:998F:FCCA:1F19:F350:4F83 (talk) 11:16, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- 2600:1004, I don't have time to look into the evidence you're presenting so I will answer the question you start with. If someone violates the discretionary sanction and you think there should be a sanction against that editor you can appeal to AE, with the kind of report you gave here, or you can appeal to an uninvolved administrator (doesn't have to be me, though it can be). Any uninvolved administrator can enforce the sanction. Additionally, AE does not have to be closed with consensus - any individual administrator can act on evidence presented. Though I would take heed of Guerillero's warning. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:07, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- 2600:1004: I have looked at this example. This is not strong enough evidence for me to say Levivich misrepresented the source in a sanctionable way. It's not even enough for me to issue him a formal warning. I agree that the source says what you say it says. However, I don't see Levivich attempting to argue it does - I don't see him disputing your characterization or claiming subsequently that it says something else. Further, I see that the next time he uses sources he includes specific quotes to support his position. The idea of misrepresenting sources is not a "gotcha" over the normal range of editing. Instead it is meant to avoid a problem you've identified - claiming a source which fits the general requirements of high quality and which many of us don't have access to says something it doesn't. There needs to be either a pattern of such behavior or a singular example of blatant (or maybe egregious is the right word) misrepresentation. At least for me. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:45, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. It sounds as though the new restriction about misrepresenting sources does not change very much, because repeated or severe misrepresentation of sources was already actionable under the regular discretionary sanctions that have always existed, correct? 2600:1004:B14B:BF17:DD28:947E:9154:ADCF (talk) 22:54, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- 2600:1004: I have looked at this example. This is not strong enough evidence for me to say Levivich misrepresented the source in a sanctionable way. It's not even enough for me to issue him a formal warning. I agree that the source says what you say it says. However, I don't see Levivich attempting to argue it does - I don't see him disputing your characterization or claiming subsequently that it says something else. Further, I see that the next time he uses sources he includes specific quotes to support his position. The idea of misrepresenting sources is not a "gotcha" over the normal range of editing. Instead it is meant to avoid a problem you've identified - claiming a source which fits the general requirements of high quality and which many of us don't have access to says something it doesn't. There needs to be either a pattern of such behavior or a singular example of blatant (or maybe egregious is the right word) misrepresentation. At least for me. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:45, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
I have a query
For my new user page --Chandravanshi - II (talk) 04:01, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Chandravanshi - II, I don't understand your question. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:01, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, please do visit my user page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chandravanshi - II (talk • contribs) 04:05, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Indeffed for provocations. El_C 04:25, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, please do visit my user page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chandravanshi - II (talk • contribs) 04:05, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
A query on Foloosi page reviewal
Hello Barkeep49, I got a notification today that mentions your name saying 'The page Foloosi has been reviewed'. Can you help me with what it is about?
Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by IamHaseeb (talk • contribs) 10:36, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
- IamHaseeb, new page review is a process where Wikipedians ensure that certain minimums are met for every newly created article. I reviewed Foloosi as a bit of procedure - all articles nominated for deletion are automatically eligible to be reviewed. I hope that answers your question. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 14:29, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
Note about your comment on talk page of Race and intelligence
Sorry to have to bother you about this topic. I saw your comment, and wanted to add some thoughts. Not sure whether it was best to post here or in there, I figured here was better since it is more of a comment on the process than a comment on a particular aspect of the page. Hope that is OK! ^_^
Twice did the environmentalist editor camp of editors seek out and got opposing users barred. This strategy is just the continuation of their recent campaign. As I recall the moves in recent time: 1) try to delete all the sources to the hereditarian viewpoint one at a time, 2) try to get the entire page deleted, 3) try to get the opposing editors blocked or banned, and 4) try to rename the article in violation of WP:NPOV. Currently, (3) is what you are commenting on. Their efforts at moves (1) and (2) both seems to have failed. So far with (3), Peregrine_Fisher (indef topic banned), and Oldstone James (I think he is indeffed right now? There was some appeal and reblocking) have been blocked, and they filed another motion against Jweiss11, but it closed with a warning to both filer and accused. With two active editors removed, and one scared, they can continue their work on (1) and (4) with less resistance. I don't understand why this kind of behavior is allowed (I understand you said this is not appropriate, but seemingly it works and is tolerated). It is certainly not something that gives others trust in the system. I suspect they have a group of people sitting on a chat somewhere coordinating these moves, but of course that is just speculation. Just my thoughts! I don't really know what systems are in place to deal with this strategy. I assume something similar is happening at other high profile disputed pages, e.g. Donald Trump, so I guess they have some process over there to make it not effective. --AndewNguyen (talk) 19:06, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
- AndewNguyen, I certainly welcome your comments here. In fact here, or a conduct noticeboard (which AE is one of) is a better place for these comments than the talk page where the focus should be on content rather than user conduct.
Digression on the value of trump
|
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I think there are things to learn in this article from Donald Trump as there is from Acupuncture which RexxS mentioned above. Trump is complicated in a different way because the content is undergoing rapid changes as his presidency continues. As Race and intelligence remains politically fraught but also has scholarly content in a way Trump won't for some time. |
- As you might have noticed I was one of the panel of sysops who closed the most recent attempt to delete the article so I am aware of the history and current situation. As an uninvolved sysop my goal is to help create an environment where consensus can be reached on appropriate content. I will continue to do my best to ensure that our policies and guidelines are appropriately applied. This means not considering which "side" an editor is on when considering conduct. I think you see very different conversations around Oldstone James than Peregrine Fisher for a reason and still different conversations when Jweiss was brought up. The concern you expressed here is exactly why I felt it important to leave the warning. The discussion about the move request has been mostly productive, the discussion over Sulfboy's changes has gotten off to a good start, and hopefully that trend continues. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 19:40, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
Query about A7
Hello Barkeep,
I would appreciate some clarification for future reference. I was under the impression that book authors were not inherently notable and that reporters do not inherit notability from the magazines they write on, even if those are notable per WP:JOURNALIST. Does WP:A7 automatically not apply to any of those two cases? Regards. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 20:11, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
- Crystallizedcarbon, a credible claim of significance is a much lower standard than notability. In my mind CCS is the question "based on this information, best case scenario is this person notable?" If the answer's yes then there's a CCS. Now even with this standard I Tushar Kumar might have been a bridge too far (as none of the movies are blue linked). Akiko Ichikawa (fashion consultant) might have a lesser claim to real notability but a stronger CCS as strange as that is. Does that help? Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:47, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for the quick response. To clarify further, for Akiko Ichikawa what would be the credible claim of significance, being a book author or being a reporter for a notable magazine? are all book authors or all reporters of notable magazines not elegible for the A7 criteria? Regards. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 17:55, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
- Crystallizedcarbon, in that instance I did not check her books (in general if something is published by a notable publisher as opposed to self-published/vanity press that makes a difference for A7) but instead based on the claims of having written for notable magazines. A7 is a remarkably low bar for people to clear and, with our current rules about who can make drafts, is one that is only cleared infrequently. Hope that helps. Please keep the questions coming if you have more. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:27, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
- Understood, thanks. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 06:50, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
- Crystallizedcarbon, in that instance I did not check her books (in general if something is published by a notable publisher as opposed to self-published/vanity press that makes a difference for A7) but instead based on the claims of having written for notable magazines. A7 is a remarkably low bar for people to clear and, with our current rules about who can make drafts, is one that is only cleared infrequently. Hope that helps. Please keep the questions coming if you have more. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:27, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for the quick response. To clarify further, for Akiko Ichikawa what would be the credible claim of significance, being a book author or being a reporter for a notable magazine? are all book authors or all reporters of notable magazines not elegible for the A7 criteria? Regards. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 17:55, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
New message from TheLongTone
Message added 15:04, 7 March 2020 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
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Arbitration case opened
You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Jytdog. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Jytdog/Evidence. Please add your evidence by March 23, 2020, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Jytdog/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration.
All content, links, and diffs from the original ARC and the latest ARC are being read into the evidence for this case.
The secondary mailing list is in use for this case: arbcom-en-b@wikimedia.org
For the Arbitration Committee, CThomas3 (talk) 05:47, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
New Page Review training programme
Sir, Due to some personal reasons and mentally sad, I wont't be able to continue this. I want to dropout from the programme, temporarily. I will notify you whenever I come back. Thank You. ❯❯❯ S A H A 17:13, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
Orson Scott Card nominated for GA
Hi Barkeep49, I've finished my latest batch of edits on Orson Scott Card and nominated it for Good Article. I know the page has some weak points and I'd like your feedback on it. I might be slower to respond these next few weeks but I hope to continue to improve the page. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:13, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- (talk page watcher) One small critique: His last name is used 286 times in the article, way too many times as the first word in a sentence. Probably should refer this to the Guild of Copyeditors. John from Idegon (talk) 22:41, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your interest! The use of a subject's last name as the first word of a sentence is not a Good Article criteria. I know it's a common problem though, so I copyedited the biography section with that in mind. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:55, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- While this is strictly true that this might not cause a GA to fail I would push pretty hard for this kind of writng to be fixed in a GA. Anyhow I am completely overwhelmed with other stuff at the moment . and don't know when I'll have capacity to be on very much. But when I am, I will definitely swing by to pick this up for review if someone hasn't. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:27, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- (talk page watcher) - Whilst items aren't strictly speaking part of the GA criteria, it's always best practice to try and improve the article (that's what we're here for). For example, there's a couple times there are ref order issues ( theater.[15][14], "overly prolonged."[55][2], Fleet School.[63][64][62] for example) - whilst not part of the GA criteria, it's such an easy fix it's worth doing. I would totally change some sentences round to remove "Card did X. Card married Y." Such as at (In 1977, Card married Kristine Allen.[20] Kristine Allen is the daughter of Mormon historian James B. Allen, who helped Card with research for some of his works relating to Mormon history.[10] Card and Kristine had five children.) It's unlikely to fail a GA because of this, but worth making some changes.
- There's also a couple refs in the lede and infobox. These don't look like specifically contentious things to cite, so I'd remove them, and have the info cited in the prose. It'd also be a little more careful with what is a quote, and what isn't. The themes section has proper nouns as quotes "Ender's Game", "Happy Head" etc, which they shouldn't be. Then you have actual quotes like "through discipline and suffering" and "lonely and manipulative Messiah-figures" which need attributing. Overall it's a nice article and would likely pass with a copyedit and a few tweaks. I hope that's helpful in some way. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:20, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Lee Vilenski, I had always been under the impression that source ordering was a best practice but when this was last discussed at GA (in a discussion I couldn't find quickly and don't have capacity to really look for) opinion was far more divided than I had thought on the topic. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:25, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- It is best practice, but not something that should effect a GAN. Realistically though, it's an easy fix. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:36, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- I understand being overwhelmed! Thanks Lee Vilenski, I didn't realize that Wikipedia's MOS requires italics for short stories. I submitted the page to the Guild of Copyeditors too. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:58, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- It is best practice, but not something that should effect a GAN. Realistically though, it's an easy fix. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:36, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Lee Vilenski, I had always been under the impression that source ordering was a best practice but when this was last discussed at GA (in a discussion I couldn't find quickly and don't have capacity to really look for) opinion was far more divided than I had thought on the topic. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:25, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- While this is strictly true that this might not cause a GA to fail I would push pretty hard for this kind of writng to be fixed in a GA. Anyhow I am completely overwhelmed with other stuff at the moment . and don't know when I'll have capacity to be on very much. But when I am, I will definitely swing by to pick this up for review if someone hasn't. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:27, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for your interest! The use of a subject's last name as the first word of a sentence is not a Good Article criteria. I know it's a common problem though, so I copyedited the biography section with that in mind. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 22:55, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
ANI
Hey Barkeep, there is a discussion that may be of interest to you as NPP coordinator. I pinged you but I'm not sure if you have them turned on, so I'll notify you through your talk page as well. --MrClog (talk) 11:43, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the ping MrClog. I would likely not have seen it otherwise. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:25, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
Non-neutral RFCs
Barkeep49, I've raised a matter in Robert McClenon's user talk that I think should receive your attention. Could you please decide what the appropriate course of action is in this situation? 2600:1004:B101:7BCC:8C98:20E6:5BB5:D75 (talk) 18:42, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
- 2600:1004, I am not seeing something that causes great alarm.
Is the claim that there are genetic differences in intelligence along racial lines a fringe viewpoint?
is broad but falls in the yes/no dichotomy that RfCs handle well. Saying which specific sources would be effected is probably helpful in the longrun - that way someone doesn't answer yes if they're willing to defend some/all of those sources. What am I missing?Regardless of what I'm missing I think your best option per our RfC page isIf you feel an RfC is improperly worded, ask the originator to improve the wording, or add an alternative unbiased statement immediately below the RfC question template. Do not close the RfC just because you think the wording is biased. An {{rfc}} tag generally remains on the page until removed by Legobot or the originator. A discussion can be closed only when the criteria at Ending RfCs are met.
. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:10, 18 March 2020 (UTC)- As I said in Robert McClenon's user talk, part of what is non-neutral about that RFC is the statement that I statement that I have "persistently advocated for lending credence to white supremacist sources". The RFC also states, "some editors have successfully been promoting scientific racism and white supremacist views, notably at Race and intelligence".
- I consider the statement that I and other editors have been advocating white supremacism to be a personal attack. While there is no denying that research about race and intelligence is popular among white supremacists, it also is something that's studied by professional psychologists, and my own motivation for participating in this article is because I want Wikipedia to accurately describe the scientific controversy over this topic. I suspect that is also true of most of the other editors who have been opposing NightHeron's actions.
- Also, you are misunderstanding the reason NightHeron listed those sources. He is listing all of the sources that he thinks supports his fringe/pseudoscience designation. While some of these sources are reliable, others (such as the Angela Saini source) are journalistic sources that fail the new sourcing restriction. And in any case, he's cherry-picking sources that support his point of view; someone like myself or AndewNguyen could just as easily provide a list of reliable sources that argue for the opposite perspective.
- As someone who NightHeron has accused of being a white supremacist, I think that I'm very unlikely to accomplish anything by discussing this matter with him directly, so I'm asking if you could address this issue yourself. 2600:1004:B119:69DD:7878:F00B:B93:ECD (talk) 02:30, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah I understood you were looking for action from me. I don't think policy offers a whole lot on the RfC front. What I can do is separate out with a section heading the RfC "question" and his !vote, which can certainly be as non-neutral as he likes. So the some editors line comes from his !vote not the RfC proper. Given the formatting I think this was indeed confusing and so hopefully this assuages some of your concerns. The other place where I might be of help is on the behavior front. Do you have a diff where he accused you of being a white supremacist? I ask because the characterization at the RfC
has persistently advocated for lending credence to white supremacist sources
does not ascribe white supremacy to you only to the sources - a characterization you can obviously disagree with. But if there's been a different diff - I have not read much of the talk page of R+I for the last week (as you can see I had limited activity in general the last week) I would like to see it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:58, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah I understood you were looking for action from me. I don't think policy offers a whole lot on the RfC front. What I can do is separate out with a section heading the RfC "question" and his !vote, which can certainly be as non-neutral as he likes. So the some editors line comes from his !vote not the RfC proper. Given the formatting I think this was indeed confusing and so hopefully this assuages some of your concerns. The other place where I might be of help is on the behavior front. Do you have a diff where he accused you of being a white supremacist? I ask because the characterization at the RfC
- As someone who NightHeron has accused of being a white supremacist, I think that I'm very unlikely to accomplish anything by discussing this matter with him directly, so I'm asking if you could address this issue yourself. 2600:1004:B119:69DD:7878:F00B:B93:ECD (talk) 02:30, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think he's directly accused me of being a white supremacist, but he has implied it, and has also has made that accusation more generally against other editors who disagree with him.
- [1] - In this diff, he said that "the discussion has been dominated by a small number of editors who seem determined to have Wikipedia give credence to white supremacist views."
- [2] - On this diff, he said that "an IP-editor might be less inhibited in making white-supremacist or anti-semitic comments." This second comment is probably referring to me. If you read the entire discussion about whether to exclude IP users from commenting on this page, it was pointed out by multiple users that this proposal was directed against me in particular.
- There is another concern here, too. NightHeron's comments on this article have repeatedly claimed that researchers who have studied race and intelligence such as Linda Gottfredson, Heiner Rindermann, Davide Piffer, etc. are white supremacists. While these people aren't Wikipedia users, they are still living people, and NightHeron has generally not cited any sources to support these allegations. Is making these allegations against living people without a source allowed under WP:BLP? This part of BLP policy says that the policy also applies to talk pages, not just to article content. 2600:1004:B119:69DD:7878:F00B:B93:ECD (talk) 03:43, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- 2600:1004, without getting into the specifics here (though I will but as part of processing the novel Night Heron wrote below), BLP applies everywhere. So, and again I'm speaking generally not specifically, committing a BLP policy violation can be actionable anywhere on Wikipedia. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:47, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- There is another concern here, too. NightHeron's comments on this article have repeatedly claimed that researchers who have studied race and intelligence such as Linda Gottfredson, Heiner Rindermann, Davide Piffer, etc. are white supremacists. While these people aren't Wikipedia users, they are still living people, and NightHeron has generally not cited any sources to support these allegations. Is making these allegations against living people without a source allowed under WP:BLP? This part of BLP policy says that the policy also applies to talk pages, not just to article content. 2600:1004:B119:69DD:7878:F00B:B93:ECD (talk) 03:43, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Barkeep49, the word 'fringe' and links to WP:FRINGE are thrown about on often on WP, and in my opinion inappropriately at times. NightHeron has raised a mostly compelling claim of WP:FALSEBALANCE but also a broad generalization as pseudoscience. Considering the actual text of that guideline, WP:FRINGE/PS and the overriding core WP:NPOV policy, what is the actual outcome of a 'yes' vote on that RFC? fiveby (talk) 15:19, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Fiveby, that's a great question. Unfortunately I can't tell you in advance. Instead it would rely on how the closure closes it. There could be more or less nuance in the close and obviously that will have different effects. So in your participation I would say yes (or no) and what effect you would like it to have. In this way you're helping shape the consensus and thus the closing statement. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 23:28, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
I'm sorry about contributing to cluttering your talk-page, but since the lengthy complaints are directed against me, I feel that I have to defend myself, at the expense of brevity. First, concerning the RfC, I thought that by putting *Yes as OP
between the RfC statement and my argument in favor of my yes-vote, I was making a clear enough separation between the two. But I agree that your separation of discussion into a new section was a good idea. Next, concerning the proposal to ban IP-editors from Talk:Race and intelligence, I was not the editor who proposed this. Here is the text of the diff (offered as evidence of my making personal attacks) in which I voted and argued (somewhat weakly) in favor of that proposal: Support per jps and dithewave, although that restriction will probably have only a minor impact. My impression is that, historically, the problematic editors both on the article and the talk-page have not been predominantly IP-editors. On the other hand, (1) just one or two IP-editors can do a lot of bludgeoning, and (2) an IP-editor might be less inhibited in making white-supremacist or anti-semitic comments.
Both (1) and (2) are general statements, not referring to any individual. In fact, worry (2), which is far more serious than (1), is based on my experience with other IP-editors on other pages. Once on an abortion-related article I had edited using a source written by a woman with a Jewish-sounding name, it was reverted by an IP-editor with an edit summary calling it a "kike lesbian source." More recently, after I reverted some extremist vandalism on Talk:White privilege (later removed from view by an admin because it called for violence against editors), a few minutes later the vandal using a different IP-address came to my user talk-page threatening me with hate speech. Given that there's been alt-right off-wiki canvassing (for example, for the recent AfD for Race and intelligence), I thought that the same type of threat that I'd seen on Talk:White privilege could be repeated. That explains my vote and my reason (2) for it.
I did not accuse the complaining editors or any other editors of being white supremacists, only of wanting to give credence on Wikipedia to white supremacist views, such as those of Jensen, Rushton, Lynn, Piffer, and Gottfredson. I agree with the concern expressed by the Southern Poverty Law Center that certain articles on Wikipedia have advanced the white supremacist agenda by giving a false balance between those authors and mainstream authors.
Concerning the three authors mentioned (Gottfredson, Rindermann, Piffer), it's true that I did not always give sources during talk-page discussions, but such sources are readily available in Wikipedia and RationalWiki articles. On Wikipedia the BLP for Gottfredson mentions the controversy over her being funded by the Pioneer Fund, which the University of Delaware, where she worked, tried unsuccessfully to block. (The Wikipedia page Pioneer Fund says: The organization has been described as racist and white supremacist in nature,[1][2][3] and as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.[4]
) Rindermann is described in his BLP as a frequent contributor to the white supremacist journal Mankind Quarterly. (The first sentence of the article Mankind Quarterly, supported by 3 sources, says: Mankind Quarterly is a peer-reviewed academic journal that has been described as a "cornerstone of the scientific racism establishment", a "white supremacist journal", an "infamous racist journal", and "scientific racism's keepers of the flame".
) As far as Davide Piffer goes, the most extensive information I've found about him is from RationalWiki, which identifies him as a racist and pseudoscientific crank and quotes him as follows in reference to African immigrants: Italy is in deep shit and we still have to use hotels to quarantine gorillas getting off the boat, as if we didn't have enough infected at home.
I've been editing Wikipedia only 2 years, and still don't know many things. I wouldn't have thought that your personal talk-page was the appropriate place to complain about an editor's conduct. When I was a newbie, a mainspace article written mainly by me was initially deleted at AfD, and then that was reversed at DRV. At that point, within a half-hour of the reversal by uninvolved admins, an experienced editor edited the restored article down to a stub and again proposed it for AfD in stub form. I went to the talk-page of an admin who'd been helpful to me on another article, and asked what I should do. I didn't ask for his intervention, only advice. The experienced editor came there and said I was canvassing, and that if I had a complaint against him the right thing for me to do was to take it to WP:ANI. Like the naive fool I was at the time, I did that, and of course you can guess what happened. A WP:BOOMERANG, and I was t-banned for 6 months. That whole experience makes me wonder: Was that experienced editor lying to me, or was he correct? Is coming to your page with a misconduct complaint about me and request for intervention a form of canvassing?
I note that in the above discussion I had no opportunity to respond to the accusations, because I was certainly not watchlisting your personal talk-page, and no one pinged me. Thankfully, User:Fiveby referred to my user-name in a way that caused me to be notified. Perhaps one reason not to encourage complaints about editor conduct to be brought to an admin's page is that there's no requirement of notifying the accused.
Concerning the question raised by Fiveby, the term pseudoscience is used repeatedly in sources and in the lede to the article Scientific racism. However, the statement of the RfC does not use that term, but only the term fringe.
Anyway, thanks for your patience. NightHeron (talk) 22:45, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- @NightHeron:, first 6k bytes is quite the massive post. So apologies if I don't address everything. Starting towards the end: you are of course correct that this is not a formal behavioral forum and you will notice that I have in general not found anything actionable in what's been discussed here. The most admin like action about you is my expressing an interest in diffs - whose existence allow me to continue to say that I'm not seeing anything actionable in regards to the IP. I think having a place where editors can ask questions about fraught topics is helpful and can decrease the overall tension. As you yourself noted, ANI is quite a different environment. It has its purpose but so does lower visibility discussion. I have quite a few sysops and other editors who I respect who watch this page and I haven't gotten feedback that what I'm doing is wrong. If that were to change I would reconsider.
- So as to the other pieces, I do think, now that you're here, that you need to be very careful when describing people as white supremacists. More careful than you've been to date - the stuff on Piffer is not nearly strong enough, for instance. Strong claims (which calling someone a white supremecist certainly is) requires strong strong evidence. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:19, 19 March 2020 (UTC)