Content deleted Content added
Ihardlythinkso (talk | contribs) ←Created page with '== Hair photo == Ihardlythinkso and I disagree about the caption for one of the photos in the article. A chronology of events: # A ''Vanit...' |
indef |
||
Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
{{indef}} |
|||
== Hair photo == |
|||
[[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] and I disagree about the caption for one of the photos in the article. A chronology of events: |
|||
# A ''Vanity Fair'' [http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2011/03/shocking-truth-behind-donald-trumps-hair-revealed.html 31 March 2011 blog post] discussed Trump's unusual hairstyle. It specifically analyzed (and credited to Wikipedia) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Donald_Trump_announcing_latest_David_Blaine_feat_3-alt.jpg this Creative Commons photo]. |
|||
# I read the ''Vanity Fair'' post and on 3 April edited the article from [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&oldid=422188121 this] to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&oldid=422262965 this], moving the photo to the Personal life section and using the "possibly unprecedented" and "lattice-like" descriptions from the magazine to describe the hair in both the section and the photo caption. In other words, the photo's purpose now was to illustrate Trump's hairstyle. |
|||
# On 28 April I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=426409109&oldid=426407904 again edited the caption] after any mention of the hairstyle was removed. |
|||
# On 3 June I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=432313625&oldid=432264314 again edited the caption], but Ihardlythink so [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=432342134&oldid=432313625 undid the edit]. |
|||
As the article [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&oldid=432396798 currently stands], the caption is 1) meaningless in regards to the reason the photo is in that location, and 2) misleading in that it implies that the photo came from ''Vanity Fair'' when the opposite is the case. I will thus revert the revert. [[User:Ylee|Ylee]] ([[User talk:Ylee|talk]]) 21:43, 3 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
:I removed both the information in the article about his hair and changed the caption on the photo. The information about his hair is just trivia and not encyclopedic. One vanity fair article does not make it something he is known for. Without the information in the article, the caption doesn't make sense. [[User:GB fan|GB fan]] ([[User talk:GB fan|talk]]) 21:54, 3 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
::Are you really denying that Trump's hair style isn't one of his best-know characteristics? If we were to survey 100 Americans on what they know about Trump they'd say the following: |
|||
::* Rich real estate tycoon who has a TV show |
|||
::* Considered running for president/Criticized Obama about his alleged birthplace |
|||
::* Has a very, very unusual hairstyle |
|||
::Something that the survey would almost certainly not turn up is his alleged aversion to shaking hands, yet that is discussed in the same section. Dismissing as "trivia" a [[WP:RS]]—that is written with the assumption that awareness of his eccentric hairstyle is common knowledge, no less—is pure [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]]. [[User:Ylee|Ylee]] ([[User talk:Ylee|talk]]) 22:53, 3 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
:::You are wrong about me not liking it. This only has to do with my opinion that it appears to me as trivia and I do not believe it belongs. If others disagree with me then it goes back in and stays, I don't care. If you had a reliably sourced survey that says that his hairstyle is one of the things he is notable for then I would agree with you. Just because something appears in a reliable source does not mean it is not trivia. Just because information is available and is reliably source does not mean it belongs in the article. I haven't had a chance to look at the information about him and his alleged aversion to shaking hands, but it is better to work one issue at a time and this was the one being discussed. I assume that the edits you are making are in good faith, please extend me the same assumption. [[User:GB fan|GB fan]] ([[User talk:GB fan|talk]]) 00:39, 4 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
* '''Comment''' - Although Trump's quasi-combover is patently a part of his public image, Wikipedia ''itself'' should not in any way characterize his characteristic coiffure as particularly unique (say, a la [[Moe Howard]]'s bowl cut?) but only mention that commentators make various kinds of references to it.</p><p>I'll go to Conan O'Brien's blp and see how the similar issue of O's trademark cowlick might be handled. Be right back.--[[User:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|talk]]) 01:29, 4 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
#Not much: "He [O'Brien] frequently made fun of and interacted with the audience and commonly made light of his own appearance, including his hairstyle...."--[[User:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|talk]]) 01:32, 4 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
#Well, there is this from the blp of competetor Mitt Romney's "[[Mitt Romney#2008 presidential campaign|2008 presidential campaign]]" section: "...with his...full head of dark hair graying slightly at the temples...."--[[User:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|talk]]) 01:40, 4 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
::Just because similar content is in another article doesn't mean it belongs here. [[User:GB fan|GB fan]] ([[User talk:GB fan|talk]]) 01:45, 4 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
:::I wasn't citing any instances or non-instances as an argument for or against inclusion but only as a hint at a responsible way to neutrally reference this type of material, should it otherwise be determined to be noteable.<small>Hmm, is Sarah's back-of-the-head hair bump and feathered, long bangs mentioned? and, if so (and more ''importantly!''), how?</small>--[[User:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|talk]]) 02:27, 4 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
::::[[Public image of Sarah Palin#Appearance]]: "'A reporter once asked me about [''Palin's appearance''] during the campaign, and I assured him I was trying to be as frumpy as I could by wearing my hair on top of my head....'"--[[User:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|talk]]) 02:31, 4 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
:No one would call O'Brien or Romney's hair unusual-looking. One might say that they are both considered handsome men (if properly sourced, of course) as part of a more general discussion of their public images, but this is really not [[WP:NOTABLE]]. [[William Shatner]] is widely believed to wear a toupee, but his article does not mention this as wearing a toupee is also not normally notable for a man of his age. A combover is also not normally notable. |
|||
:Trump's hairpiece is notable, however, because its appearance and design are so unusual that articles (such as the one I cite above) have been written discussing it. As you say, his hair forms an important part of his public image; late-night comedians usually mention it during their Trump jokes. My edit in question used, with quote marks, the "possibly unprecedented 'double comb over'" and "lattice-like" descriptions from the cite. |
|||
:WP:NOTABLE operates on a scale, of course, based on the subject's overall notability and the length of the article; were this a [[WP:STUB]] we would not mention Trump's hair. Given the article's current length, however, it would be nonencyclopedic if we did not. [[User:Ylee|Ylee]] ([[User talk:Ylee|talk]]) 03:00, 4 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
::In a biography in an encyclopedia, if you write a caption which makes the specific topic and purpose of a photo of [[Jimmy Durante]] about his *big nose*, I have no problem with that. Ditto [[Don King (boxing promoter)|Don King]], and his *sticky-up hair*. But if in the same encylopedia you write a caption which makes the specific topic and purpose of a photo of Hitler about his *moustache*, I have a problem with that. Ditto Gandhi, and his *wire-rim glasses*. All four are characteristic, and even "trademark" looks of a person. But there is a difference. What you seem to be trying to justify is sneeking Trump into the former group, when it's common sense he belongs in the latter. (To put him in the first group is not only incorrect, it's inappropriate, ridiculous, and, in a BLP, in bad taste and even insulting.) [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 09:07, 4 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
{{quote box|style = padding: 20px 20px 10px 40px|width = 90%||tstyle = align:"left"|quoted = yes|width = 90%|title = <big>'''•'''</big> '''Comment''' -</p><p><big>'''''HItler,'' comma, ''moustache . . . .'''''</big>|quote = [[File:Gandhi and Mountbatten drink tea.jpg|thumb|right|160px|[[Dhoti]]ed man wearing sandals and wirerimmed spectacles enjoys tea with the [[Viceroy and Governor-General of India]] (1947)<center>–</center>Image also found at <big>'''Wikipedia,'''</big> [[Ghandi#Simplicity|<big>'''Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi: "Simplicity"'''</big>]])]][[File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-S33882, Adolf Hitler retouched.jpg|thumb|left|upright|100px|A man in the brown uniform of the ''[[Führer und Reichskanzler]],'' bearing the toothbrush (1937)]]The style was introduced in Germany in the late 19th century by visiting Americans. Prior to the toothbrush the most popular style was called the [[:File:Wilhelm II, German Emperor, by Russell & Sons, c1890.jpg|Kaiser moustache]], perfumed and turned up at the ends.... By 1907 enough Germans were wearing the new trimmed down and simple toothbrush moustache to elicit notice by the ''New York Times'' under the headline "TOOTHBRUSH" MUSTACHE; German Women Resent Its Usurpation of the "Kaiserbart". The toothbrush was taken up by German folk hero Hans Koeppen in the famous [[1908 New York to Paris Race]], cementing its popularity among young gentry. By the end of WWI even some of the German royals were sporting the toothbrush, [[William Hohenzollern]] (son of the Kaiser) can be seen with a toothbrush moustache in an 1918 photograph that shows him about to be sent into exile.</p><p>Hitler originally wore the Kaiser moustache, as evidenced by photographs of him as a soldier during [[World War I]]. There is no agreement what year Hitler first adopted the toothbrush. Some believe it was after WWI, [[Ron Rosenbaum]], a cultural historian, said "Hitler didn't adopt his until late 1919". [[Ron Rosenbaum]]. ''The secret parts of fortune: three decades of intense investigations and edgy enthusiasms''. Others say it was during WWI, Alexander Moritz Frey, who served with Hitler during WWI, said Hitler wore the toothbrush in the trenches after he was ordered to trim his moustache to facilitate the wearing of a [[gas mask]].|source = '''—<small><big>"</big><u>[[toothbrush moustache|TOOTHBRUSH MOUSTACHE,<big>"</big> ''WIKIPEDIA: THE FREE ENCYLOPEDIA'']]'''</u></small></p><p>--[[User:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|talk]]) 12:35, 4 June 2011 (UTC)}}{{-}} |
|||
{{quote box|style = padding: 20px 20px 10px 40px|width = 90%||tstyle = align:"left"|quoted = yes|width = 90%|title = <big>'''''"No skinny little man in diapers will decide the fate of the British Empire!"'' —<small> (SIR WINSTON CHURCHILL)</small> . . . .'''''</big>|source = —<small><big>"</big><u>[http://www.uua.org/religiouseducation/curricula/tapestryfaith/riddlemystery/session10/sessionplan/stories/157725.shtml '''GANDHI'S TRUTH''']''',<big>"</big> GRETA ANDERSON'''</small></u></p><p>--[[User:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|talk]]) 13:17, 4 June 2011 (UTC)|quote = You have probably seen pictures of the man from India known as "Gandhi:" a skinny, bald-headed man with wire-rimmed glasses, a white cloth wrapped around him. ... Mohandas Gandhi was not always that man dressed simply in white cloth. As a law student in London and as a lawyer with a successful practice in South Africa, he dressed up in European clothes because he thought it would improve his status, and the status of all Indians. He encouraged Indians to fight for Britain in World War I for the same reason. ... So, who was the true Gandhi? The man in the suit and tie, who promoted military service or the avatar of nonviolence who wore hand-woven cloth and sandals—even when meeting with high officials in foreign lands?}}{{-}} |
|||
::Secret Garden, if there's a point to your research, please state it and don't make me guess what it is. Thx. [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 08:00, 5 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
:::OK, fair enough. In short, change the caption to picture number one to say "Hitler" and that to picture number two to say "Gandhi" and both would be perfectly encyclopedic. Ditto an illustration of Mr. Trump and his combover forward-then-back and thatched at the sides hairstyle.--[[User:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|talk]]) 14:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
::::Secret Garden, still don't follow you. The Hitler photo exists in a WP article about ''moustaches'', not in his bio article. I have no idea if you're countering my point (which was clear) or just adding comments. (Please re-read my point. It is about pics in ''bio'' articles.) Plus when you say "change the caption to say "Hitler", and also say "Ditto an illustration of Mr. Trump", then you are suggesting to change the caption of the Trump photo to "Trump"! (Is that what you mean? I don't think so. I don't know what you mean.) [User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 12:54, 6 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
:::::You argue that according to your editorial judgement a discussion of Hitler's iconic toothbrush moustache and of Gandhi's wire-rim glasses and of Trump's combover-front'n'back'n'thatched-at-the-sides iteration of [[big hair]] wouldn't merit mention in their biographies. I counter that this would depend on how the information was presented and on the length of the biographies--that the famous stache of ''Herr'' Hitler's, ''Sri'' Gandhi's famous look, ''the'' Donald's famous "do," etc., would not be out of place in fairly lengthy biographies, depending on how [[wp:WEIGHT|due-weight]] concerns would be addressed, with [[wp:N|notability]] and [[wp:V|verifiability]] being the determining factor of whether info should be treated at all, anywhere in the encylclopedia.--[[User:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden]] ([[User talk:Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden|talk]]) 13:43, 6 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
::::::Secret Garden, no, you don't understand, that wasn't my point. (Re-read my point.) As far as I'm concerned, Hitler's toothbrush moustache, Gandhi's wire-rim glasses, and Trump's comb-over hairstyle might all very ''well'' merit discussion in their respective encyclopedic biographies. (What I'm against is, making a photo of the person in their biography ''all about'' the moustache, the glasses, or [what was attempted to be done in the Trump BLP] the hairstyle via a caption directing sole attention to those things. Again, I think there is another category of person, which includes both Jimmy Durante and Don King, where a photo of them in their biographies ''could'' be made entirely about the nose, or the sticky-up hair, via caption directing sole attention to those things, without being either inappropriate, wrong, ridiculous, in bad taste, or insulting.) [[User:Ihardlythinkso|Ihardlythinkso]] ([[User talk:Ihardlythinkso|talk]]) 10:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC) |
|||
::::::We should accurately reflect reliable sources in a neutral fashion.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — [[User:Keithbob|<b style= "color:#090;"><i>Keithbob</i></b>]] • [[User_ talk:Keithbob|<span style="color:#075;">Talk</span>]] • </span> 16:02, 6 June 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:03, 20 April 2012
You are using this template in the wrong namespace. Use this template on a user talk page instead.