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==Template history question== |
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To Kevmin's issues, because of Kevmin's and another third party's well-reasoned, calm explanations of the taxonomy issues to me at Talk:Equidae, I no longer have opposition to the notion of splitting this template into just articles about taxonomy that parallel other taxonomy boxes and a navbox to articles about the modern animals in genus Equus, including science and husbandry both. The basic argument makes sense. But this template is transcluded onto literally hundreds of breed and management articles totally unrelated to taxonomy and so a template split needs to be undertaken in some fashion that addresses this problem. (Scott Alter had a fix for the Horse breeds task force header that allowed an automatic switch of the talk page header to WPEQ when they merged, don't know if we can do that here or not...) As for the taxonomy versus not issue, this template was originally created by a youth editor named 4HHHHH (or however many H-s were in the name). I helped this individual clean up the template, expanded it, usually with what I believed to be consensus, (note earlier discussions above) and some other editors, even Una were involved in its early structure. User 4HHH also created the original form of the pages that are now WikiProject Equine, but this user is apparently no longer active on wikipedia, and thus primary maintenance of this template has fallen to me. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|(talk)]]</sup> 03:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC) |
To Kevmin's issues, because of Kevmin's and another third party's well-reasoned, calm explanations of the taxonomy issues to me at Talk:Equidae, I no longer have opposition to the notion of splitting this template into just articles about taxonomy that parallel other taxonomy boxes and a navbox to articles about the modern animals in genus Equus, including science and husbandry both. The basic argument makes sense. But this template is transcluded onto literally hundreds of breed and management articles totally unrelated to taxonomy and so a template split needs to be undertaken in some fashion that addresses this problem. (Scott Alter had a fix for the Horse breeds task force header that allowed an automatic switch of the talk page header to WPEQ when they merged, don't know if we can do that here or not...) As for the taxonomy versus not issue, this template was originally created by a youth editor named 4HHHHH (or however many H-s were in the name). I helped this individual clean up the template, expanded it, usually with what I believed to be consensus, (note earlier discussions above) and some other editors, even Una were involved in its early structure. User 4HHH also created the original form of the pages that are now WikiProject Equine, but this user is apparently no longer active on wikipedia, and thus primary maintenance of this template has fallen to me. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|(talk)]]</sup> 03:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:As I pointed out above Una, unless there was a name change does NOT show in the edit history until January 20, 2009. The article was a taxonomy template in the beginning as shown by the history and didn't shift to a Equestrianism dominant template until Scottalter's change of February 6 2008 when the focus was shifted completely to Equestrianism. |
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:CLARIFICATION-What has been suggested by me is the moving of this template to a name reflecting its use as an Equestrian template. After that move the then empty name "Template:Equidae" could have a taxonomy based template created for use connecting the various Equidae taxa together as is done with the other boxes I have shown in my comments. |
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:This method will avoid any problems with the breed articles and at the same time solve to taxonomy problem.--[[User:Kevmin|Kevmin]] ([[User talk:Kevmin|talk]]) 03:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:54, 22 January 2009
Equine Template‑class High‑importance | ||||||||||
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Which photo
Do you object if we replace the photo of the Quagga with a color photo of a horse? Montanabw(talk) 23:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Nah I don't mind if you replace it with a colored horse. --4444hhhh (talk) 14:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)4444hhhh
Dug around for some assorted generic images, both body shots and just heads of horses. Which one do you like better? Probably needs to be one that looks good when small. I liked these for being real clear shots and not ugly. Thoughts? (Or just pick one and plop it on the template. I'm OK with any of them--my personal favorite is probably the mare and foal shot) Montanabw(talk) 09:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
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File:Quarab.jpg
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File:Chevalcastillonnais.jpg
huge box, please collapse by default
This navbox is very big. In many cases it will take up more space than the actual text of the respective article. It is common practise to set such huge boxes to collapse by default. I tried to do so but was reverted without a comment. Am I really the only one who thinks that it is too imposing? A navbox should support articles, not dominate them. --Latebird (talk) 13:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- I suppose it depends on its purpose. It isn't a deep moral issue with me, but in this case any articles that it dominates probably deserve to be smacked because they need to be expanded anyway. (LOL!) Can you point to the WP page that outlines the standards, though? Here I think there is a case to be made for "Ignore all rules." It's worth a chat, at least. My reason is that the horse articles have a lot of problems with navigation and cross-linking, the box is an attempt to make it easier (and to me, being at the bottom of the page, it is less dominating than those extensive sidebars seen in some other topics. The sidebars, such as those here don't collapse, it seems, and I find them more distracting, personally.) I think we are sitting at well over 1000 horse articles (I have about 800 on my watchlist, and that is after I cleaned it out) and we have noticed a lot of orphaned stubs get created because people don't know what's out there. (The project is now just tagging everything, organizing and recategorization is yet another challenge). A lot of new users don't get it about expanding the box, a lot of new users and kids hit the horse articles (at least if the vandalism is any indication) and in the case of a lot of stubs, it is a useful navigational tool. I guess I don't care a lot either way, I think if expanded it will draw more new users to navigate. And the picture of the horse is just lovely! (grin) JMHO. Montanabw(talk) 20:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
- I only just noticed your reply, sorry. Your points are valid, of course, and it's not the largest box I've seen yet. A possible other solution for small screen users might be to remove the image. I don't quite see the point of images in navbars anyway, but that's yet another discussion. In this case, on a small screen, the image takes almost one third of the width, which huge empty spaces above and below. Removing it would roughly cut the height of the box by half. Try to reduce the width of your browser window to see the effect. Adding line breaks to some of the labels on the left would result in another size reduction. --Latebird (talk) 05:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Revision of Template
I just revised the template. Here's what I did and why. First, I removed links to the categories. I'm not sure if it is official policy or not, but I rarely see links from the main article namespace to other namespaces. The only common exceptions are usually links at the bottom of the template with one link to the main category, and one link to the portal. Second, I removed the species list. I just created a new template, {{Perissodactyla}}, which appears on all of the species pages and ties them all together...so keeping them here would be duplication. Third, I combined breeds, hybrids, and extinct species on one line to conserve space. Finally, I saved additional space by moving some of the articles to the group name (on the left side, rather than the right) and changing some of the links by removing the word horses (where it is obvious and not needed).
- On another note, I'm not sure you should be putting this template on all of the articles within the WikiProject. Usually, a template is only placed on an article if the article appears on the template. So all of the breeds and types of horses articles probably should not have this template. I'd think a new template for horse breeds (grouped by common characteristics, if possible), would be a better option. Having multiple, specific templates would probably be best for easing navigation of the project anyway. Many focused templates are usually better than one gigantic template. --Scott Alter 08:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
- What you did works, but oh, my god NO we must not try to make a horse breeds template, oh the fights over how to categorize them- it gives me a headache just to think about it. (:clutching head, writhing in pain on floor:) The fight over which breeds are horses and which are ponies alone is periodically intense. Also, many breeds can fit in multiple categories (the Thoroughbred, for example, is both a race horse and a sport horse). No, best to just refer people to the main list and let it go! As for putting the template only on some articles, hmm. I guess when I see them in other articles I think of them as a navigation tool, the problem, if you happened to have surfed the categories, is that there are probably over 2000 horse articles (more yet if you count all the race horse biographies at WikiProject Horse Racing, which is why we aren't trying to combine with them!) and the categories themselves are a real mess -- once the assessment tags go up, "fumigating" the categories is probably the next push. (Just as an example, both Equestrianism and Equestrian Sports are categories, that's illogical) Until we have a real clear hierarchy of categories, more specific templates probably need to wait. Montanabw(talk) 05:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Support Montana on the no horse breeds template. Oh, gods above, I would not want to deal with that. Even trying for alphabetical would get you in trouble... because everyone would try to add "American" to the front of their breed article.... The paint/appy people would scream about being classified as color breeds ... the palomino people would too, the pony breeds would insist they are horses or vice versa, the Arabian folks would insist on being at the front, etc. etc. It would be a nightmare. Where would you draw the line? I think we have what... 150 breed articles on Wikipedia now? Talk about large template! As for the collapsable template, I'm in favor. I don't like templates, honestly, but that's me. I prefer bottom to sidebars. If we have them, I prefer they collapse by default so I don't have deal with them that much. If you know how to make them always collapse, can I borrow you for a couple of bishop ones? Ealdgyth | Talk 05:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Keep
- Delete
- Delete It may be pretty but it serves no relevant navigational purpose. If it were to serve a purpose, then an image of an equid other than a horse might be more helpful, but the main effect is cutsey. --Una Smith (talk) 01:37, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- Delete As already stated the picture doe not seem to serve any purpose and has noticeable formating effects on smaller computer screens. I would also point out it makes the template itself large then need be by forcing the "Equestrianism and sport" and "Breeds and types" sections into too lines each. Also this is the only template which has an image. Template:Archosauromorpha, Template:Basal crocodylomorphs, Template:Sharks, and Template:Chondrichthyes are all widely used to link related subjects and all do quite well without images.
Discussion
Err.. this isn't a navigational box, it's a project banner for use on the talk pages. So, yeah, the whole template serves no navigational purpose. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:43, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- The poll concerns the image on Template:Equidae, not the project banner on this talk page. --Una Smith (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Why are we polling this anyway? I vote "Keep." I LIKE things that are cute. Most of the other project banners have images or symbols. Montanabw(talk) 05:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Proposed rename
With the recent, and much needed, split of Equidae into articles about Equidae the family and Equus it would seem to be prudent to migrate this template. I would propose moving this template to Template:Equus as ALL of the content of the template relates specifically to the modern genus only and, for a large pert, to domesticated Horses. A link could be added to link to the family page in the "Evolution and history" section but to fully encompass the Family the template should incorporate links to all the genera, plus the family page and Evolution of the horse, preferably clarifying hte name "Breeds and types" to something more suitable such as "species and breeds", clarifying that Zebras and Wild asses are not just breeds of the modern domestic horse.--Kevmin (talk) 08:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Support some kind of move. The template name Template:Equidae has to go. This template never did have much to do with Equidae, but given its current content I am not sure if Template:Equus is the best target name. --Una Smith (talk) 16:04, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- True this really would work best if renamed something along the lines of Template:Equestrianism, as the is the overriding theme of the template content now.--Kevmin (talk) 18:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- How about Template:Equine? --Una Smith (talk) 23:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Oppose until the broader question of whether we really need two separate articles for Equidae and Equus. I'm not opposed to rename if there is a solid, stable end product, but the articles themselves are in too much flux to still mess with the template quite yet. There was a merge of Equus into Equidae and Horse somewhere back in time, prior to me, and the argument was something along the lines of how the whole thing is not just about horses, there is Asinus, Zebras, etc...I don't know the details, I just know it's a periodic spat that arises. The Equidae template encompasses both a navbox and a project banner and as such covers not just equestrianism but evolution, genetics and other scientific and management articles too. The template should stay put until other issues are resolved or else we will be redoing a whole bunch of things just to put them back again. Please, let's just leave it be for now. Montanabw(talk) 21:15, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- The thing is the template sill only covers Extant and very recently extinct members of the genus Equus, with heavy empasis on Equestrianism; The entire "Equestrianism and sport" and "Evolution and history" excluding the link in the title to "Evolution of the horse", the "Equine science and management" is over half domestic horse oriented. This leaves the "Breeds and types" section, which is misnamed to begin with. As I already stated it should be Species and breeds or a smiler name to reflect that Zebras and Wild asses are not just breeds of the modern domestic horse. and the included extinct species are limited to modern extinctions, thus not even covering the entire Equus genus. I moved the "Yukon wild ass" page to Equus lambei as this appers to be a created name to market a Pleistocene Animal to tourists. and the other extinct Equus taxa, Equus simplicidens and Equus scotti are not listed on the template. Regarding the use of hte template as a wikiprojet banner, this is the only instance I have come cross of a template also bening claimed as a banner for the project. As the template does not actually even link to the project I dont this qualifies as a banner, most projects has a small icon that is placed under the taxobox for this purpose.--Kevmin (talk) 00:43, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- I expanded the template to include slightly more Equidae-relevant links, and also put the most relevant sections first. Still more needs to be added. Basically, this is one navbox trying to cover two (or more) distinct topics. There is a place in Wikipedia for a navbox to Equidae, but such a navbox should not include much of the stuff now included. --Una Smith (talk) 00:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- I am removing them, all are linked -- or should be -- from the new Equidae article. Next thing you know we will have to add all 350 articles from the list of horse breeds, too.
- I expanded the template to include slightly more Equidae-relevant links, and also put the most relevant sections first. Still more needs to be added. Basically, this is one navbox trying to cover two (or more) distinct topics. There is a place in Wikipedia for a navbox to Equidae, but such a navbox should not include much of the stuff now included. --Una Smith (talk) 00:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- The thing is the template sill only covers Extant and very recently extinct members of the genus Equus, with heavy empasis on Equestrianism; The entire "Equestrianism and sport" and "Evolution and history" excluding the link in the title to "Evolution of the horse", the "Equine science and management" is over half domestic horse oriented. This leaves the "Breeds and types" section, which is misnamed to begin with. As I already stated it should be Species and breeds or a smiler name to reflect that Zebras and Wild asses are not just breeds of the modern domestic horse. and the included extinct species are limited to modern extinctions, thus not even covering the entire Equus genus. I moved the "Yukon wild ass" page to Equus lambei as this appers to be a created name to market a Pleistocene Animal to tourists. and the other extinct Equus taxa, Equus simplicidens and Equus scotti are not listed on the template. Regarding the use of hte template as a wikiprojet banner, this is the only instance I have come cross of a template also bening claimed as a banner for the project. As the template does not actually even link to the project I dont this qualifies as a banner, most projects has a small icon that is placed under the taxobox for this purpose.--Kevmin (talk) 00:43, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
How about we simply remove the non-Equidae, horse-specific content to Template:Horse? --Una Smith (talk) 03:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- considering the mass of the content that would be removed, would Template:Equestrianism be suitable? but yes a split would seem to be in order to remove the biology from the husbandry as it were.--Kevmin (talk) 06:34, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Because many of the horse management articles also cover mules and donkeys too. And "Equestrianism" here on wiki refers to Horsemanship, not husbandry. I don't know if the Dog navbox also links to articles on obedience classes, but it's a similar principle. Montanabw(talk) 23:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, Template:Equine would cover mules and donkeys. And all other extant members of Equus. --Una Smith (talk) 00:06, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Because many of the horse management articles also cover mules and donkeys too. And "Equestrianism" here on wiki refers to Horsemanship, not husbandry. I don't know if the Dog navbox also links to articles on obedience classes, but it's a similar principle. Montanabw(talk) 23:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- I really dislike "-ism"; Equestrianism violates Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), apparently to avoid a non-problem: parenthetical disambiguation. It probably should have been named Equestrian (horseman) or something like that. I would prefer Template:Equestrian or Template:Horse husbandry. --Una Smith (talk) 15:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Let's just leave it alone. This is a general purpose navbox to get people to the main articles for various subtopics. We can start with links to Equidae and Equus (genus), call it template Equus or Equidae, I no longer care which, and leave it alone. This is not a huge issue. And there was NO consensus to remove the photo, so I am restoring it. At present, I am very busy and may not get onto Wikipedia more often than every other day, so I would appreciate if people would wait and avoid a "false consensus" on this template. Montanabw(talk) 23:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- Re the photo, Montanabw, if you can offer a good reason ("cute" is not a good reason), I will be pleased to have a photo in the navbox. But let's at least use one that is not a modern horse; use a photo that makes the important but often overlooked point that most Equidae are not horses. --Una Smith (talk) 00:00, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
For the record, this proposal is the result of discussion over several days on Talk:Equidae#Equidae vs. Equus and is motivated by the fact that this template currently links numerous pages about horses, horse husbandry, and horse tack to Equidae, where in many cases it is not relevant. --Una Smith (talk) 01:48, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Compromise
Perhaps we might move the contents of the nav box as it existed before Kevin and Una's work, to another name, thus effectively splitting the "horse-only" template off from the "taxon" template, and pleasing both parties? Ealdgyth - Talk 00:36, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- That is exactly what Kevmin and I have been discussing. Which target do you prefer, Ealdgyth? --Una Smith (talk) 01:40, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Great minds at the same time. I would be OK with the restoration proposed by Ealdgyth, but suggest Equine or Equus, as many of the articles also cover donkeys and mules (and occasionally other members of Equus genus) Ealdgyth, so that I do not violate 3 RR, could you do me the honor of restoring the last version I edited, which reflects the new version of Equus (genus)? Thanks. Montanabw(talk) 01:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
No, I won't. Reverting never does anyone any good and BOTH of you should be discussing not reverting. Don't get caught up in the heat of the moment, whatever platitude floats your boat. It's not something that has to be fixed right this second, no one is going to die if it stays at a version that someone doesn't like for a bit. This should NOT be taken to mean that I agree with the various reverts, nor that I favor the current version over the version that stood for a long time. Let's just not fight, thanks. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:57, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Good for you, Ealdgyth. Tag teaming is not good. --Una Smith (talk) 02:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't do it because of that, I did it because it won't help the discussion. Frankly, I think you were a bit off when you reverted Montana's revert. The cycle is BRD, not BRR, but as long as we got to the D part, I really don't care. You can't assume that everyone checks Wikipedia every day or every hour, so sometimes it'll take someone a few days to notice changes they don't agree with and revert those. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Ealdgyth, surely you do not condone tag teaming? --Una Smith (talk) 02:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Where do you get that from what I said? No, I do not condone tag teaming. Now, can we discuss the issue on the talk page, and remember that we need more than a day or so for that discussion? Like I said above, not everyone edits Wikipedia every day, so you need to allow more time for consensus to emerge, especially when at least one person has expressed concerns. I think I made my position clear, lets hear from some others over the next few days. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:13, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Ealdgyth, surely you do not condone tag teaming? --Una Smith (talk) 02:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't do it because of that, I did it because it won't help the discussion. Frankly, I think you were a bit off when you reverted Montana's revert. The cycle is BRD, not BRR, but as long as we got to the D part, I really don't care. You can't assume that everyone checks Wikipedia every day or every hour, so sometimes it'll take someone a few days to notice changes they don't agree with and revert those. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Okay, how about this. I copy the non-taxonomic stuff to one of the candidate page names that have been offered, and if later that does not suit anyone, you work it out among yourselves and move the page. --Una Smith (talk) 02:11, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- What is the hurry? I do not see the big need to fix this NOW. Wait, get some other folks involved, let consensus settle. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Where did I say "fix this NOW"? I have been waiting for days already for the usual suspects to weigh in. Weighing in calmly would be nice, but whatever, the end result will be the same. --Una Smith (talk) 02:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if I misunderstood your statement, it seemed to me that you were wanting to do the copy soon. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Not only a taxonomy template
This is a navagation template to help people find there way around ALL the many, many articles in WikiProject Equine, not just taxonomy. The young person who originally created it intended it as such, and such as been the consensus of WPEQ. I don't really care that much if we call it Equus, Equidae or Equine. In fact, between those three names, I don't care at all any more now that I understand the Equidae/Equus thing a bit better. But this is NOT just a taxonomy template and you are hijacking it into one. If you want to make a template just for taxonomy, then go for it, but you want it keep the template name Equidae for page transclusion purposes, then this template IS transcluded onto at least 350 horse breed articles and almost all of the article linked on the original version (I know this, I did it by hand to every one of them!) and it will be your responsibility to find every one of them and fix the situation. So I am restoring my last edits and I suggest you leave it that way until we reach a REAL consensus. You can always pull your version from history as needed. Montanabw(talk) 01:22, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- The non-taxonomy stuff doesn't belong here. Not to worry, Montanabw, we'll fix it. This template is in good hands, really. Have a nice vacation. --Una Smith (talk) 01:39, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Regarding other templates, three other major domesticated animals have templates, those templates are Template:Domestic dog, Template:Domestic cat, Template:Sheep navbox. While all have section on breeds, none of the three involve related taxa. Of the taxonavigation boxes, (sample: Template:Archosauromorpha, Template:Basal crocodylomorphs, Template:Shark nav, and Template:Chondrichthyes) all focus on taxonomy only with the exception being Sharks which has a section on human interaction. Template:Camelids only focuses on the extant species with no inclusion of camel husbandry. Point being this template is trying to cover two very different subjects and doing a very poor job of the taxonomy portion. This template as it is should stay, but definitely be renamed to reflect that its focus is hose husbandry and not taxonomy.
- Looking at the history shows that this template was created as a taxonomy template primarily and, while titled Equidae, was the header was Equines. The equestrianism was added in not by the creator if the template but by Montanabw. The template completely turned into an Equestrianism template with this edit. See the above section Revision of Template" for the "discussion". Overall, to be honest, With the majority of the editing done/approved by or reverted by Montanabw it seems that there is a bit of ownership involved. The proposed renaming is in line with the current usage of the template and the Creation of a separate template for taxonomics would satisfy the original intent of creation of this template before it was changed.--Kevmin (talk) 03:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not arguing with that, but let's get some more people weighing in. It won't hurt to wait a day or two for folks to see what's up and weigh in. I'm fine with splitting the "equestrianism" stuff away from the taxo stuff, but others may have different opinions. Ealdgyth - Talk 03:24, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Okay, stop with the reverting...
Both of you are heading towards 3RR with all the reverting, and I see no need for either of you to get blocked for edit warring. Let's stop with the reverting and take a night or two and think about things so that calm discussion can be done. As well as allow others to weigh in on the discussion. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:51, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Because when an edit war starts, the accepted practise is to warn about it, and restore a version from before the conflict started (and resort to protection/blocking if the edit war continues). Obviously this means that one side will always complain that the state the page has been restored to is the wrong version. That is unavoidable. If people can come to an agreement on this page as to what changes should me made, then they can be made with the weight of the discussion behind them. At the moment, there isn't really an agreement here -- Gurch (talk) 02:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Right. Thank you Gurch for choosing the wrong version. As it happens, I asked that question before the page was reverted, or at least before I saw that it was. I am happy with the compromise that Ealdgyth proposes to end the current conflict, which just happens to be exactly what Kevmin and I have been discussing anyway. --Una Smith (talk) 02:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Because when an edit war starts, the accepted practise is to warn about it, and restore a version from before the conflict started (and resort to protection/blocking if the edit war continues). Obviously this means that one side will always complain that the state the page has been restored to is the wrong version. That is unavoidable. If people can come to an agreement on this page as to what changes should me made, then they can be made with the weight of the discussion behind them. At the moment, there isn't really an agreement here -- Gurch (talk) 02:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not much of a choice involved; this is clearly the divide between old and new. Obviously if you all agreed with changes on top of that from the start then there would not have been any reverting in the first place, so I apologise for getting in the way but it's probably better than ending up with the page protected and not able to make the changes you want to make at all. Now, as far as I can see the compromise Ealdgyth proposes involves waiting for wider input. So in the meantime, no harm will come of leaving the template how it is for now -- Gurch (talk) 02:24, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Gurch, I support your revert to the last "stable" version (pardon the pun). And if you note the above and the discssion at Talk:Equidae, where this began, you will note that I did the original removal of the other party's version after checking in on the discussion at some point and stating that I opposed some of the issues being discussed. I also was one of the first contributors to the original template (as, in fact, was Una come to think of it, she helped us with formatting issues early on) . Thus, I must note that the above statement of "jumped in late" is not appropriate here. I have been off-wiki for two days due to my real life work.
- Further, I absolutely cannot keep up with the other party's speed of questioning and editing today, so I have no idea what was asked at which point. My own edits today reflect a small but notable edit to the old version, acknowledging the creation of [{Equus (genus)]] and hence it was not quite a full revert. I also believe that if the edits of Kevmin are looked at alone, his contributions to the template were minor, and in fact he reverted some of his work back to the original version. Thus Kevmin is an innocent party here. Montanabw(talk) 02:34, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, that was my impression also, but that does not matter much; after all, if edits are discussed beforehand, then who actually makes them is mostly irrelevant. I think it is best if there is more discussion on this issue; perhaps everyone can wait until tomorrow and make some changes if there's a clearer agreement by then. Montanabw, going from the discussion here it looks as though your preferred changes might be in the minority, though a rather small minority at the moment, there being only a couple of other participants in the discussion. The important thing is to remember that you're seeking a compromise, not a victory, somewhere there is a version that you and Una would both be happy with, just a case of finding it -- Gurch (talk) 02:41, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Two things, in regards to my edits that was an unrelated change to test a hypothesis I had and as is shown in the edit history I reverted back to the template as it was before I started. I have just spent time going over the history edit by edit and unless there was a name change as some point UNa did not edit this template until her recent updates that started this fuss.--02:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Last one today: I DO care about quality control and have an institutional memory of over two years on wiki. I believe that is not the same as "ownership." Thus, I ask the other party to please henceforth refrain from making veiled personal attacks on me that are disguised as "advice" and not further personalize this talk page discussion. Every time the other party and I argue over something, the other party inevitably accuses me of ownership and tells me to quit working on wikipedia in one way or another. I've really had it with this approach. For the dozenth time, please remember WP:NPA. I really MUST go offline now and so can you kindly avoid creating another crisis anywhere else until you give me a fair chance to weigh in? You KNOW this is an ongoing situation. And I am really VERY busy in real life through the end of the month and would vastly prefer not to have to pull time from work to protect my hobby. Montanabw(talk) 03:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
<-- Didn't I tell everyone to chill like an hour ago now? :) Neither of you are perfect, and nor is Wikipedia. Don't get hung up on links with captialized acronyms in them -- Gurch (talk) 03:44, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Template history question
To Kevmin's issues, because of Kevmin's and another third party's well-reasoned, calm explanations of the taxonomy issues to me at Talk:Equidae, I no longer have opposition to the notion of splitting this template into just articles about taxonomy that parallel other taxonomy boxes and a navbox to articles about the modern animals in genus Equus, including science and husbandry both. The basic argument makes sense. But this template is transcluded onto literally hundreds of breed and management articles totally unrelated to taxonomy and so a template split needs to be undertaken in some fashion that addresses this problem. (Scott Alter had a fix for the Horse breeds task force header that allowed an automatic switch of the talk page header to WPEQ when they merged, don't know if we can do that here or not...) As for the taxonomy versus not issue, this template was originally created by a youth editor named 4HHHHH (or however many H-s were in the name). I helped this individual clean up the template, expanded it, usually with what I believed to be consensus, (note earlier discussions above) and some other editors, even Una were involved in its early structure. User 4HHH also created the original form of the pages that are now WikiProject Equine, but this user is apparently no longer active on wikipedia, and thus primary maintenance of this template has fallen to me. Montanabw(talk) 03:35, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- As I pointed out above Una, unless there was a name change does NOT show in the edit history until January 20, 2009. The article was a taxonomy template in the beginning as shown by the history and didn't shift to a Equestrianism dominant template until Scottalter's change of February 6 2008 when the focus was shifted completely to Equestrianism.
- CLARIFICATION-What has been suggested by me is the moving of this template to a name reflecting its use as an Equestrian template. After that move the then empty name "Template:Equidae" could have a taxonomy based template created for use connecting the various Equidae taxa together as is done with the other boxes I have shown in my comments.
- This method will avoid any problems with the breed articles and at the same time solve to taxonomy problem.--Kevmin (talk) 03:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC)