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:: Thanks. Now we just need to see what Unomi thinks. [[User:Gatoclass|Gatoclass]] ([[User talk:Gatoclass|talk]]) 05:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
:: Thanks. Now we just need to see what Unomi thinks. [[User:Gatoclass|Gatoclass]] ([[User talk:Gatoclass|talk]]) 05:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Gatoclass, tell you what. I have got more than enough of unomi, who btw created only one a single sentence article, but is very good to critique the work of the others. I am going to withdraw DYK nomination right now, and do what you want with that article. I'm taking it off my watch list. And if it will be tried to get promoted with unomi's edits I will have to object it.--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 06:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
:::Gatoclass, tell you what. {{nono | I have got more than enough of unomi, who btw created only one a single sentence article, but is very good to critique the work of the others.}} I am going to withdraw DYK nomination right now, and do what you want with that article. I'm taking it off my watch list. And if it will be tried to get promoted with unomi's edits I will have to object it.--[[User:Mbz1|Mbz1]] ([[User talk:Mbz1|talk]]) 06:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC) |
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:::Not to sound too antagonistic; As I understand that the DYK nomination is held hostage contingent on the removal of the quote and that DYK is apparently held to be a 'big deal', out of respect for the involved parties I will hold off from editing the article rather than contribute to a deadlock situation. However, from reading the article on Zubeidi, it seems that 2 years after this event "he renounced militancy and committed himself to cultural resistance through theater", so perhaps this could be considered something which gives more insight and 'balance', not only a story of giving life to the 'opposite' side but also a line regarding the laying down of weapons, can't get more 'feel good' than that. Also doesn't this warrant a mention: "The move was hailed by stunned Israeli leaders as a "remarkable gesture for peace", particularly given the circumstances of Ahmed's death, and a bridge between warring communities."? |
:::Not to sound too antagonistic; As I understand that the DYK nomination is held hostage contingent on the removal of the quote and that DYK is apparently held to be a 'big deal', out of respect for the involved parties I will hold off from editing the article rather than contribute to a deadlock situation. However, from reading the article on Zubeidi, it seems that 2 years after this event "he renounced militancy and committed himself to cultural resistance through theater", so perhaps this could be considered something which gives more insight and 'balance', not only a story of giving life to the 'opposite' side but also a line regarding the laying down of weapons, can't get more 'feel good' than that. Also doesn't this warrant a mention: "The move was hailed by stunned Israeli leaders as a "remarkable gesture for peace", particularly given the circumstances of Ahmed's death, and a bridge between warring communities."? |
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Revision as of 06:35, 2 August 2010
Orthodox view of organ transplant
Mila, please notice that this quote
Pete Tobias, rabbi of the Glasgow New (Reform) Synagogue says:
“ | The ramifications of this organ donation - something not supported by orthodox Jewish law - are extraordinary. A Palestinian girl will grow up in east Jerusalem, and the seat of her emotions will be governed by the kidney of a murdered Glaswegian Jew[1] | ” |
get the article into places it shouldn't go. Orthodox Judaism, and even large branches of the ultra orthodox one, do allow and encourage organ donations from dead or living person. I can easily source it, but I think better solution would be to replace this quote.
Sincerely --Gilisa (talk) 16:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
DYK preparation
(copied from Mbz1's talk page):
I have pretty much finished my tweaks to the Yoni Jesner and Ahmed Khatib article now. If they meet with your approval, I think this one can be promoted now. Gatoclass (talk) 11:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for your work, Gatoclass. I only put back one important quote, and if you do not mind the article is ready to go. Thanks. Oh, yes, and I am adding you as a creator.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:24, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- The problem with the quote is that it's pretty clear it's a sardonic editorial comment by the journalist, rather than an actual statement by Zubeidi. It really isn't credible that Zubeidi would make such a self-incriminating statement himself. We should stick to actual quotes rather than interpretive comments to ensure accuracy. It would be a shame if you withdrew the article given that it's an uplifting story from an otherwise depressing conflict, but I would have to oppose promotion if you insisted on including it, so hopefully you will reconsider. Gatoclass (talk) 15:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't see the inability to retain the 'better than blowing up children in busses' line as a good reason to remove all mention of his statements, such a quote by the leader of the Al-aqsa is noteworthy and gives depth to the article. Unomi (talk) 16:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
(copied from Unomi's talk page):
The removal was done as a compromise for DYK promotion. Please see the discussion at Mbz's talk page. Gatoclass (talk) 16:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- Sometimes the compromise between a good version and a bad version is a bad version, are you seriously defending removing the quote, which nicely mirrors the quote of the section above, due to her not being able to retain the 'better than blowing up children in busses'? Unomi (talk) 16:12, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that the quote "nicely mirrored" the other one, but I guess Mbz objects because she doesn't want a comment that presents an alleged suicide bomber mastermind in a sympathetic light. As a compromise, perhaps there's another quote from the article we can use as a balance? Gatoclass (talk) 16:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- There are a few choice quotes in the source article, but really, this is an amazing quote - as I understand it, Al-Aqsa was one of the groups which Hamas had trouble keeping from firing rockets during the pre gaza war lull, yet here we see the multi-dimensional nature of their character, if this upsets the preconceptions of the reader, then so much the better - this seems to me to be one of the hallmarks of 'a good read'. Unomi (talk) 16:42, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that the quote "nicely mirrored" the other one, but I guess Mbz objects because she doesn't want a comment that presents an alleged suicide bomber mastermind in a sympathetic light. As a compromise, perhaps there's another quote from the article we can use as a balance? Gatoclass (talk) 16:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to agree, but this discussion isn't so much about what's best for the article in general as it is on finding an acceptable compromise for its promotion at DYK. If Mbz, who authored the article, doesn't want it promoted if it includes the quote, it makes it kind of awkward to try and do so. There may be some other means of balancing the article though. I will be logging off shortly however and won't be able to continue this discussion much longer today, so will probably have to come back with a further suggestion or two tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- This quote, if used alone without the other one, presents terrorists as a peaceful, people loving men, who are not against the Jews, but are only against "occupation". Without stating my opinion about the word "occupation" (I mean Camp David accord, when the "occupation" could have ended, but instead the Intifada began) this quote does not work out for me, simply because it is not true. It is well known that suicide bombers committed the terror acts against children, women and elderly, and BTW not only Jews, but Muslims as well. Ones they exploded a cafe in Haifa, that was owned by an Arab man, and both Jews and Arabs were killed in that explosion. I did not object any changes you made, but that one, and no I would not like to add a quote from the mother of the boy.--Mbz1 (talk) 17:13, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to agree, but this discussion isn't so much about what's best for the article in general as it is on finding an acceptable compromise for its promotion at DYK. If Mbz, who authored the article, doesn't want it promoted if it includes the quote, it makes it kind of awkward to try and do so. There may be some other means of balancing the article though. I will be logging off shortly however and won't be able to continue this discussion much longer today, so will probably have to come back with a further suggestion or two tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Okay, on reflection I think Unomi has a point about quotes, without the Zubeidi quote there are two quotes from the Israeli side and none from the Palestinian, and I think it only fair there is a Palestinian voice in there as well.
I was going to make a couple of suggestions, the first was to add some material about Al-Aqsa's role in suicide bombings to the Zubeidi material to give it more balance, but it turns out the Al-Aqsa page is poorly sourced and I haven't the inclination to research the topic myself. So that leaves me with the second suggestion, which is a quote from the mother. I suggest the following:
While denouncing the Israelis who shot her son as "criminals", Ahmed's mother Abla explained why she agreed to the donations:
"We saw a lot of painful scenes in the hospital. I have seen children in deep need of organs, in deep pain. It doesn't matter who they are. We didn't specify that his organs would go to Arabs, Christians or Jews. I didn't want my son to suffer, I didn't want other children to suffer regardless of who they are".
Gatoclass (talk) 05:17, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've no objection to include the above quote by the boy's mother.--Mbz1 (talk) 05:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, tell you what. Template:Nono I am going to withdraw DYK nomination right now, and do what you want with that article. I'm taking it off my watch list. And if it will be tried to get promoted with unomi's edits I will have to object it.--Mbz1 (talk) 06:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Not to sound too antagonistic; As I understand that the DYK nomination is held hostage contingent on the removal of the quote and that DYK is apparently held to be a 'big deal', out of respect for the involved parties I will hold off from editing the article rather than contribute to a deadlock situation. However, from reading the article on Zubeidi, it seems that 2 years after this event "he renounced militancy and committed himself to cultural resistance through theater", so perhaps this could be considered something which gives more insight and 'balance', not only a story of giving life to the 'opposite' side but also a line regarding the laying down of weapons, can't get more 'feel good' than that. Also doesn't this warrant a mention: "The move was hailed by stunned Israeli leaders as a "remarkable gesture for peace", particularly given the circumstances of Ahmed's death, and a bridge between warring communities."?
- In general the article seems to fail to capture the content and direction of the Guardian source, indeed it fails in that regard with the TimesOnline and Washington post sources as well, personally I think we are failing to document what makes the events so extraordinary, the context and reception. I am not familiar with how DYK works, but is there a deadline here? This article could be amazing with a bit more work. Unomi (talk) 06:10, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Unomi edit is wrong
here is wrong. This source says: "Ahmed's heart was transplanted into a 12-year-old Israeli Arab girl"--Mbz1 (talk) 06:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- No, it is not wrong, you have just failed to even read the sources, see TimesOnline, and WaPo, did you really write the article? Unomi (talk) 06:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed, even the source that you state proves me wrong says: The girl who received the heart, Samaah Gadban, is from Israel's Druze community in the Golan Heights. Unomi (talk) 06:26, 2 August 2010 (UTC)